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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
December 20, 1988  10:00 pm Eastern
Topic: Apple II Assembly Language
Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)


AFL Jim    Well, I'm ready to go here if everyone else is!
AFA Gary J Sounds good to me, have the banners passed our way yet?
AFL Jim    No banners, but they aren't always a rule around here.
AFA Gary J Right.
AFA Gary J I was just wondering where everyone was.  Vacation, I guess.
AFL Jim    Once again, Rick and GS (BTW: what's your name?), welcome to the
           Apple II
AFL Jim    Development forum. Tonight's scheduled subject is Apple II
           assembly language.
GS 816     my real name is Jim Shapiro, I have a consulting business in
           Milwaukee
AFL Jim    Good name, Jim :)
AFA Gary J Hi Marty
GS 816     that is named Group Support 8/16  (i.e. GS 816)
AFL Marty  Hi
AFL Jim    Hi Marty
AFA Gary J Hi Parik, Dave.
AFA Parik  Hi all
Dave Lyons Howdy!
AFL Jim    I'd like to start tonight's meeting by telling a little about a
           book I
AFL Jim    reviewed last month.
AFL Jim    It's "Programming the Apple IIGS in Assembly Langauge" by Ron
           Lichty and
Dave Lyons (I finished my last final a little early, so I made it on time
           after all.)
AFA Parik  :)
AFL Jim    David Eyes. Ron and David both work in Apple's Developer Tools
           group.
AFA Parik  .
AFL Jim    Their last book was "Programming the 65816"
AFA Gary J (good book)
AFL Jim    Anyway, their new book is the firt book I've seen that shows how
           to build a
AFL Jim    desktop program from the ground up. I *do* mean the ground. They
           start with
AFL Jim    a simple program that prints "hello, world" to the text screen and
           then add
AFL Jim    code a little piece at a time to show how the tools interact with
           each other
AFL Jim    and why certain things must be done to support new additions. They
           also cover
AFL Jim    the basics of using the APW shell with assembly language
           (sonething that is
AFL Jim    lacking in most other books) - that includes macros, the MACGEN
           utility, 
AFL Jim    code segments in your source code and data segments.
AFA Gary J I assume it explains how the APW shell works in connection with
           assembling and
AFL Jim    It should be in print sometime in January.
AFA Gary J linking the sample source code provided?
Gy813      whats the name of the newest book?
AFL Jim    right, Gary
AFA Gary J Sounds good.  An actual tutorial for IIGS assembly programming.
AFL Jim    The title is "Programming the IIGS in Assembly Language" by Ron
           Litchy and
AFL Jim    David Eyes.
Gy813      thanks
AFL Jim    I've already suggested that they write two more versions of this
           book...
AFL Jim    one for C and one for Pascal, maybe even one for BASIC although
           there doesn't
AFL Jim    seem to be *any* standards in the IIGS BASIC world.
AFL Jim    Oh yeah... they will have an optional disk with all the programs
           and source
AFA Gary J (I can tell I need some new book shelves already...)
AFL Jim    code.
AFA Parik  (do what I do Gary, wear the books... its great)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim    What's up with everyone else tonight?
RTAFT      Sounds like a real good one. I enjoyed their first effort about
           the 65xxx. I 
RTAFT      found it to be the first one to really make sense to me.
AFL Jim    It's the book I use, too, Parik
AFL Jim    (oops, Rick :)
AFA Parik  :)
RTAFT      :)
AFL Jim    <- going blind
RTAFT      I know the feeling!
AFL Jim    Is it just here on AppleLink or is everyone switching over to the
           ORCA/APW
AFL Jim    assembler?
AFA Parik  Orca is fun.  
AFA Parik  But Glen did say a new 16 bit version of Merlin is coming out.
AFA Gary J It's really all there is, if you want compatability with all the
           samples.
AFA Gary J Merlin does the job, but needs to have an easier conversion
           method.
RTAFT      I am NO expert at assembly. I use MERLIN 8/16. Is there much of a
           difference?
AFA Parik  In the output, no. Getting to the final output, yes.
AFL Jim    I don't have Merlin 8/16 (just Merlin Pro), but I've never been
           one to write a
AFL Jim    whole program in assembly unless I have to. The ORCA/APW system
           lets you mix
AFL Jim    object files from assembly, Pascal, C, whatever just by knowing
           the names of
AFL Jim    variables, procedure and functions.
AFA Parik  Hi scott!
ScottG25   Hi Parik!
AFL Jim    What would you say Merlin's greatest strength is?
ScottG25   <Hi Dave, Jim, Dwight, GS>
AFA Parik  Speed
AFL Jim    Speed?
AFA Gary J Speed in Assembly/linking
AFL Jim    GMTA
AFA Parik  :-)
AFA Gary J (But not necessarily debugging...  :(
AFA Parik  (Hi Bruce!)
DwightW1   convertin object to source code
AFA Parik  What?  Who wrotes buggy code?  hee hee
AFL Jim    The disassembler that comes with it is nice to have, too.
GS 816     I think that is that there are/were som many that learned on Big
           Mac and the
GS 816     original Merlin
AFA Gary J Right.  The Sourcerer is a nice plus.
AFL Jim    Right, Jim. I learned with Merlin, too.
AFA Gary J (^^^ the disassembler)
AFA Parik  Also the applesoft disassembler is great.
AFA Gary J I learned on the OLD LISA assembler. 
AFA Parik  ?
AFL Jim    I've found ORCA makes MACROs much easier to use though... the fact
           that it
AFL Jim    comes with a complete macro library makes you see how much time
           macros can save
AFL Jim    you.
AFL Jim    GA Parik
AFA Parik  Is there a utility for Orca/M & APW that allows you to set all
           attributes of a
AFL Jim    (hi Kathryn)
AFA Parik  file?  I mean auxtype, etc.
KSUTHER    Hi, sorry I'm late!
AFA Parik  (and all accessible access bits :)
AFL Jim    Parik: nope
AFA Parik  Good.  I'm almost done.  :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim    Going to donate it? :)
AFA Parik  Of course.  :)  Which bit is the invisible bit?
AFA Parik  Also should I display information about resource fork?  Its in the
           OPEN 
AFA Parik  GS/OS parameter table, but I'm not sure if I should even show
           it.
Dave Lyons (Davex lets you fiddle with Auxtypes and access bits!  :_
AFA Parik  hehe
Dave Lyons (or even :)... :)
AFL Jim    What does Davex not do, Dave?
Dave Lyons It doesn't search all the disks on your desk for a given file yet.
            That's
Dave Lyons planned for a future version. :-)
DwightW1   what is davex, dave?
AFL Jim    Parik. check page 105 of the GS/OS reference for a table showing
           *all* the
AFL Jim    access bits.
AFA Parik  will do
Dave Lyons Dwight, Davex is a ProDOS 8 command shell & program launcher from
           DAL Systems,
Dave Lyons which is me, Shareware for $25.  It's available in the Utilities
           library.
Dave Lyons (And Fun Stuff is going to start happening to Davex again, now
           that I'm out of
Dave Lyons college & have more time to implement Good Ideas of my own & that
           users have
Dave Lyons come up with.)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim    Davex-16?
AFA Parik  Davex 32?  :)
AFA Gary J And Nifty List too?
Dave Lyons That too!  There'll be a Davex 16 one of these months...can't
           promise whether
Dave Lyons it will be Shareware or not.  Nifty List is already -16, but I
           spoze you mean
Dave Lyons will interesting things start happening to it again too--Yes! 
           I'll get around
KSUTHER    Sounds interesting. Nice name, Dave.
Dave Lyons to putting in the pattern search everybody wants, and fixing the
           screen dump,
Dave Lyons and Who Knows what else!
AFL Jim    Does everyone know what Nifty List is?
AFA Parik  yes
AFL Jim    Say no if you want Dave to explain.
DwightW1   thanks for the info dave (sorry, my modem disconnected me again)
RTAFT      no
AFL Jim    That's your cue, Dave
AFA Gary J :)
Dave Lyons Which name is inetersting, Kathy?  Davex-16, or something else?
Dave Lyons Okay, Nifty List is...
Dave Lyons a CDA utility for programmers, or just people who like to wander
           around the
Dave Lyons internals of the toolbox & their machine's memory & other people's
           programs;
AFA Parik  Hi Andy
Dave Lyons the original idea was to provide a command like the monitor's
           L(ist) cmd to
AndyWells  Hello
Dave Lyons disassemble 65816 code, but to display the NAMES of toolbox calls
           and ProDOS
Dave Lyons calls in the margin.  From that, it grew into a more general
           utility that
Dave Lyons can, for example, show a list of all loaded toolsets along with
           several useful
Dave Lyons pieces of info about each; display a list of allocated memory
           blocks along with
Dave Lyons lots of useful stuff (like the Mangler) and also showing the name
           of the
Dave Lyons file that owns that memory.  You can also use it as a quick
           reference for the
Dave Lyons toolbox (it knows the parameters for all the toolbox calls!), and
           you can do
AndyWells  Does anyone know of any debugger that will work in the 128k
           enviroment??
Dave Lyons screen dumps (text only) and dump data structures like Windows,
           Ports, Control
Dave Lyons lists, etc.  That gives you a fair idea; ask if I haven't told you
           enough! :)
Dave Lyons [It's available in the AUT library as well as the ADV library, I
           think.]
AFL Jim    I know it is.
RTAFT      Sounds like you put a LOT of effort into it. I think I'll try it
           out :)
KSUTHER    Dave, how can we publish information on Shareware products and
           protect authors.
AFL Jim    Rick, it is a IIGS CDA
KSUTHER    You know, so they still benefit from their efforts.
RTAFT      I know - I'll bother the dealer. :) 
KSUTHER    Any ideas on the subject?
Dave Lyons RTAFT--yes, lots of effort, but mainly for selfish reasons:  I
           needed the thing
Dave Lyons to debug my own programs!
AFA Gary J InCider is doing something with that, Kathryn.
Dave Lyons Kathy, I guess I don't understand the question--how is publishing
           info on
Dave Lyons Shareware products a problem in the first place?
KSUTHER    If we publish the code, it is all over. Really PDS.
KSUTHER    You commented about this a while back.
AFA Gary J (Oh.  InCider doesn't publish the code!)
Dave Lyons You wouldn't want to publish Nifty List code anyway...would take
           many
Dave Lyons issues!  Or am I misunderstanding you?
AFA Parik  Why not just ask the author?
KSUTHER    Yea. Perhaps I misunderstood Dave.:)
DwightW1   i think kathy means downloading the code from an online service
DwightW1   ..getting away with it and for FREE!.. am i right kathy?
KSUTHER    It would be great to be able to make the code available in that
           fashion, yes.
AFL Jim    Kathy, did you mean publishing code as shareware in a magazine?
KSUTHER    I would like to get information out on great Shareware products.
           And help
KSUTHER    authors make a profit at the same time.
AFL Jim    If so, I think the better way would be to provide information in
           the magazine
AFA Gary J Perhaps you could just have the author do an article about
           programming some
AFL Jim    and supply the software on disk (with the author's permission)
AFA Gary J aspect of the shareware program, something like Dave did with the
           P8CDA
KSUTHER    I'm hoping Dave Lyons will grace our pages again.
Dave Lyons I plan to!
AFA Gary J (It was useful information, without giving the program away!)
Dave Lyons Well, Shareware is freely distributable--if you want to provide it
           on disk,
Dave Lyons that's no problem as long as I keep the copyright.  Nifty List is
           already 
Dave Lyons available on some cheap ($3 or so?) disk from TechAlliance, I
           think.  Probably
Dave Lyons an outdated version right now, but that'll be fixed.
KSUTHER    No, certainly not to my knowledge!
Dave Lyons Ummm...I _ordered_ it and received it when I saw it listed!  It
           _was_ there! If
Dave Lyons you think that interferes with my rights somehow, I wanna know
           about it :-)  It
Dave Lyons seems okay to me.
KSUTHER    Well, then this is exactly the point we need to straighten out.
           Thanks Dave.
AFL Jim    Kathryn, I think A2-Central (Open-Apple) is going to start their
           disk of the 
AFL Jim    month in February. They are planning on including shareware (with
           permission)
AFL Jim    as well as PD software.
KSUTHER    That's great. As long as the authors come out ahead. I'm sure with
           Tom they
Dave Lyons Hmmm...I'll have to send Tom a disk of all the lastest versions of
           DAL S's stf.
KSUTHER    will. That's the way to do it. :)
AFL Jim    Oh yeah... that's A2-Central (tm) and TechAlliance (tm) :))
KSUTHER    I'm sure we could work something out along that line. Plus it
           would be great
KSUTHER    to have a regular column devoted to Shareware.
KSUTHER    Don't all volunteer to work in that arena at once.:)
AFL Jim    Any assembly questions boefre we continue the general
           discussion?
AFA Gary J Andy had a question a screen or two back about a debugger for a
           128k
AFA Gary J environment.  Did we answer that?
AndyWells  Hi Floyd
AFL Jim    Andy, the only debuggers I can think of are either 64K (old Apple
           II) debuggers
Dave Lyons Anybody know much about Maxwell's Demon?  Will that handle tracing
           thorugh
AFL Jim    or something for the IIGS.
AFL Floyd  <Hi, Andy>
AFA Parik  There is a card that will do hardware debugs... Gary told us about
           it.
AFL Jim    Oh yeah...
Dave Lyons progs that do 128K bank switching?
AFA Gary J Right, Parik.  It ONLY works on //e type machines at the present 
           :(
AndyWells  I have Bugbyter, the one that runs 65C02 code, but I need more
           than that..
AFA Parik  Did they ever make the GS version?
AFA Gary J I think it still has problems (the IIGS version, that is.  Last I
           heard)
AndyWells  It can handle aux page 0/ram card area switching up to a point,
           but I need
AndyWells  something that will handle full bank switching, and haven't found
           anything so
AndyWells  far..
AFA Parik  Hi  Shadow
AndyWells  I haven't gone far enough to write my own debugger, but I'd bet
           that if I had
SHADOW52   hi
AFL Jim    Andy, I think a hardware debugger is about all that could handle
           all the bank
AndyWells  the source for bugbyter, I'd be able to modify it..
AFL Jim    switching on the IIe. That
AFL Jim    That's what Quantum used to write this software.
AFA Gary J Or...develop on a IIGS for //e's.
AndyWells  Are there any hardware debuggers out there though?  I haven't seen
           any..
AFA Gary J There is supposed to be one from a company called ProDev, but I'm
           not even
AndyWells  I do not have a GS, and I haven't seen a complete debugger for it
           either..
AFA Gary J sure if it is final for the //e machines.  They're supposed to
           have a IIGS
AFA Gary J version too, but have run into problems.   I've been meaning to
           follow up on
AFA Gary J it.  I'll check into it again.
AndyWells  Any info I can get will be appreciated..
AndyWells  I have run into problems debugging MultiPro, and have a real need
           for something
AFL Jim    Any other questions? Comments? Suggestions?
AndyWells  to get me going again...
AndyWells  I missed that worm...
AFL Jim    It was on the Apple Cafe, Andy
AndyWells  Ok..  Thanks..
AFL Jim    Kathryn, what's coming up in Call-APPLE?
AndyWells  Well, looks like I'm out of luck here...
AFL Jim    Gary, what's ProDev's address and phone number?
AFL Jim    Oops, Andy left
AFL Jim    Maybe you can EMail it to him and tell him to ask Morgan Davis
           about it since
AFL Jim    Morgan was playing with one.
AFL Jim    and... Gary left too :)
AFA Gary J Whew.  Made it back.
AFL Jim    Welcome back, Gary. We're just sitting here.
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Jim    If you guys don't start typing.... well I'll think of something.
Dave Lyons Well, if you don't have anything better to do, you can all pat me
           on the back
Dave Lyons for passing Diff E.Q.  :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Floyd  Way to go Dave! ;)
AFL Jim    Oh yeah, congratulations on graduating, Dave!
DwightW1   I HAVE A QUESTION.....
AFA Parik  ***Pat***
KSUTHER    We've got a follow up article on GS/OS. More BASIC coverage. CD
           ROM...
AFL Jim    GA Dwight
AFA Gary J <pat><pat>
DwightW1   where is the 11/22 assembly language log?
DwightW1   .... i have yet to find it
Dave Lyons {stagger}  (Not quite so hard, guys... :-)
AFL Jim    11/22... ahh on disk somewhere around here.
AFL Jim    That's one I need to upload.
AFL Jim    hold on and I'll EMail a copy to you.
DwightW1   thanks a million!