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441 lines
18 KiB
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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February 7, 1989 10:00 p.m. Eastern time
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Topic: Pascal and C
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Forum Leader: James Luther (AFL Jim)
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AFL Jim Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
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Pascal & C.
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AFL Jim Both languages are available in some form on both the 8 bit Apples
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and the IIGS
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AFL Jim so we'll discuss any system you want.
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AFA Gary J <silence>.....
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AFL Jim Any questions to start the evening off?
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Matt DTS <it was until you ruined it, gary>
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Jim (yes, no, maybe?)
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AFL Marty How about Instant Pascal?
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JSchober (it's a LULLLL, actually...)
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AFL Jim How about it? :)
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Windrider5 why is there so little support for c for the iigs
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JSchober (hi ... err... Floyd. Hmmm...)
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AFL Marty Is it still published? Is it still copy protected? If so, why?
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AFL Floyd <sneaking in>
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Matt DTS WR5: What do you mean by "so little support"?
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AFA Gary J Q = Marty, Windrider
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Matt DTS <uh-oh...breach of protocol. Sorry>
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AFL Marty (Let Windrider go ahead of me)
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Coach101 !
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty :)
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BillP !
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AFL Jim GA Windrider - we'll give as much support to C as you want.
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Windrider5 take the magazine CALLA.P.P.L.E. there are never any C related
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article
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Matt DTS That's because none of you talented people ever bless Cecil & Co.
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with one.
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AFL Jim There have been a couple of C articles, but nothing in the last 6
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months or so.
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Matt DTS Cecil and Kathryn have asked several times for C authors, but
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haven't gotten...
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Matt DTS ...very far yet, apparently.
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Matt DTS (I mean authors of C articles, not Mr. K and Mr. R.)
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AFL Jim The IIGS technotes that aren't in assembler are in C - I'd like to
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see a few
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AFL Jim in Pascal.
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty
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Matt DTS Well, you're in a position to do something about that, aren't you?
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:-)
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JSchober (hi Cecil! We were just talking about you... ;)
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CecilFret Uh, oh. What did I do now?
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AFL Jim If you're looking for sample C code, there's a lot of that, too.
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JSchober :)
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AFL Jim It's what you haven't done, Cecil :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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Windrider5 where do you find this sample C code
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CecilFret What haven't I done now Jim
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JSchober (we're probably ruining his otherwise great day... ;)
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CecilFret Ok guys, my spies tell me no articles on APW C, right?
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AFL Jim Windrider is looking for some C articles in Call-APPLE.
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JSchober hehehe... he's a psychic...
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty
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CecilFret Someone say right!
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Matt DTS Right!
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CecilFret GOt two in the mill right now. One on an interface between C and
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Assembly.
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AFL Jim Check the development forum libraries - the source code category
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lists the
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Matt DTS (now that Cecil's here, I'm out of this one. GA.)
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CecilFret Second one is on C pointers.
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AFL Jim language the sample code files are in.
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ScottG25 ?
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CecilFret Any C coders out there wishing to make a buck? Our problem is we
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lack authors
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CecilFret fluent in the subject. I certainly am not.
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TKV Good evening... I'm just on with a Pascal GS 640 grafix
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question...
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott
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AFL Jim Coach, GA
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CecilFret Matt, I can't stay long. Got a lot of stuff to do yet tonight.
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AFL Jim Hold on TKV, we'll add you to the queue of people waiting to
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ask.
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TKV thanks
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Coach101 Another twist to the question is what level of support Apple is
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Coach101 giving, or going to give to C? The language is slow, and the
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
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Coach101 .h files could proably be sped up considerably . My buring
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question
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Coach101 is whether apple is going to continue with C, or to abandon it
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CecilFret Ok guys, we got above zero today for the first time in a week!
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Coach101 for all practical purposes. The latest issue of A+ contains
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JSchober [ ()()() Cecil... ;) ]
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Coach101 an ad from Apple for people in their Cupertino digs and makes
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mention of
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Coach101 the need for Pascal but not C. Is Apple going to drop C? GA
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AFL Jim C is still a current product at Apple.
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Jim I haven't seen the ad so I can't comment on it.
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Coach101 So is DOS 3.3 ?
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CecilFret !
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Coach, Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
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AFL Jim GA Mat
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AFL Jim t
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AFL Jim :)
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Matt DTS I'll tell you this much: *I* haven't seen any signs it's going
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away. GA.
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AFL Jim The same goes here, but Matt blocks my view most of the time.
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AFL Jim GA Bill
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BillP While I think Apple has been on the ball to release APW C and
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MPW/IIGS C and lots of good examples...
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Coach101 Ok. I was pleased with Tim's execllent (from a support)
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viewpoint
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Matt DTS Well, if you'd GET OUT OF MY OFFICE EVERY NOW AND THEN...!
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<grin>
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BillP I'm surprised there aren't more C compilers for the IIGS.
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Coach101 article in ApDaLog.... I prefer C since I must use multiple
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Coach101 machines and "C" is fast becoming a common language across all
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DaviesDoug Is this open forum tonight?!
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BillP I do agree with Coach, Apple's C is a little slow...
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Coach101 levels of machines (little to gargantuan). Thanks.... GA
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Bill), Marty, Scott, TKV
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BillP I hope it someone else comes out with one, Apple can compete
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THE GIBBER (a bit?)
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AFL Jim Pascal and C, Doug.
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Matt DTS (No, Doug, there are just five of us on the floor. <grin> I'm
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out - GA)
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CecilFret !
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BillP ga
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Cecil), Marty, Scott, TKV
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AFL Jim The Byte Works is still predicting a Spring release of their C, so
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that won't
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AFL Jim take long, Bill.
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AFL Jim Cecil, GA
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AFL Floyd !
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BillP isn't theirs, like Small C?
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AFA Gary J Q + (Floyd)
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CecilFret Ok, I am not a C expert by any stretch of the imagination.
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CecilFret I would be if I could get pointers straightened out. Anyway, on
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the speed
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AFL Jim No, ORCA/C is going to be an ANSI-C compiler.
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CecilFret issue. A friend of mine taylors his .h files to include only what
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he uses.
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CecilFret As a result, his times are much faster. GET my drift?
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CecilFret ga
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider (Floyd), Marty, Scott, TKV
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AFL Jim Floyd, GA with your comment
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AFL Jim (Cecil, GET is in BASIC and PASCAL :)
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AFL Floyd I'm anxiously awaiting ORCA C myself. I watch an episode of Star
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Trek while my APW C program
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BillP ::hysterical::
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AFL Floyd is compiling. :( I too have used selected parts of the .h files
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to increase compile times. Mike
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Windrider5 will the transwarp GS speed up the APWC compile times
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AFL Floyd mentioned that he might add something like pre-compiled headers
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like LightSpeed C uses. ga
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AFA Gary J Q = Windrider, Marty, Scott, TKV
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AFL Jim Maty and Scott, can I move TKV up in the queue?
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AFL Marty Sure
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AFL Jim Marty
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AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott
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AFL Jim Windrider, WHEN the Transwarp GS is out, it should speed up
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everything.
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DaviesDoug ?
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AFL Jim TKV, go ahead with your question.
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AFA Gary J Q = TKV, Marty, Scott, Doug
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TKV Thanks, sorry for lack of protocol : my first conf.. My question
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is
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Matt DTS (except the disk-based parts of the compile...GA)
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TKV I've got 640 colors 16 of then but can't
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TKV come up with 16 shades of grey? help?
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AFL Jim !
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Matt DTS !
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DaviesDoug !
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CecilFret Gotta go people, good night
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JSchober Night, Cecil.
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AFL Jim TKV, you need to create a color table where the lowest color is
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$000, then $111
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THE GIBBER Night, Cecil :)
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AFA Gary J Q = TKV (Jim, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
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DaviesDoug (640 mode JIM)
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AFL Jim then $222, etc all the way to $FFF which will be the brightest.
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AFL Jim ooops... I thought he said colors...
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TKV but what pen masks will yeild grey?
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AFL Jim Wchih is it, TKV?
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AFL Jim (that's which for those of you who can't read gibberish)
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TKV I've got a palette & masks which give colors (16) but can't seem
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TKV to get the penPatts for greys... :)
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TKV this is in 640 mode
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AFL Jim Matt, GA while I find where my kid has carried my books to...
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Matt DTS (gary - switch Doug and me in the comment queue - GA doug)
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ScottG25 !
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AFL Marty (you mean you have your manuals at home, Jim? :)
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Matt DTS Oh, Doug's gone. GA, Scott?
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RHannon Hello John!
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AFA Gary J Doug bit the bucket.
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AFA Parik (oh oh, Matt's running the Queue! panick! ;)
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ScottG25 Patterns for grays are just like the colors for grays except you
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use
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AFL Jim back
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AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Scott, Matt, Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
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ScottG25 4 nibbles - in things like SpecialRect... ie $0000, $1111, up to
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$FFFF. GA
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TKV I'll give it a go... thanks Scott :)
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Matt DTS Tracy...
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Matt DTS ...that's one way to do it, but Eric Soldan of AIIDTS has another
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which...
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TKV hi Matt...
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Matt DTS ...not only can I not recall, but seems to give better results on
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the...
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Matt DTS ...LaserWriter. Link your question (AppleLink Apple Edition) to
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AIIDTS...
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Matt DTS ...and we'll see if we can get him to reveal the secret. (I'll
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also see if...
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Matt DTS ...I can get a tech note from him out of it.)
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Matt DTS GA
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MarkMPC :)
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AFL Jim Doug, GA
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Matt DTS Oh, quit grinning. <smiling back>
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TKV will do.. thnks Matt :)
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AFA Gary J Q = TVK (Doug), Marty, Scott, Doug
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ScottG25 !
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TKV I'm done... thanks folks
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DaviesDoug Done
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AFL Jim Scott, another comment?
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AFA Gary J Q + (Scott)
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AFL Jim GA
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ScottG25 Matt, does Erics way have anything to do with Halftoning?
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AFL Jim (That's for you Matt - GA)
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Matt DTS You got me. I think it's just a special palette; more I do not
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know. Sorry.
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Matt DTS GA.
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ScottG25 Thanks!
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ScottG25 GA
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AFL Jim Sounds like enought interest for a technote.
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Matt DTS If you have Medley and a LaserWriter, you can check out the
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results for yoursel
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AFL Jim OK, Marty GA
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MarkMPC I've seen them.... :)
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Matt DTS f, since he used it there (pick gray scales, though). GA (really,
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this time)
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AFL Marty -?
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug
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AFL Jim Scott GA
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AFL Jim (with your question this time)
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ScottG25 Using APW C and the standard C include files (no shell calls, or
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GS/OS calls in
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ScottG25 the source) what is the easiest way to handle wildcards when
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executing a 'cat'
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ScottG25 like Unix command?
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Matt DTS What does 'cat' in Unix do, for starters?
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JSchober Type a file...
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ScottG25 cat is like type in the APW shell...
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AFL Jim It concatenates files together into one file to the output file.
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AFL Jim If the output file is the character output device, it "types"
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them.
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Dave Lyons (Meaning it just sends files to standard-out one after another.)
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ShrinkIt (yeah, if it's redirected.. :)
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Matt DTS So where would you take wildcards - in the filename?
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AFL Jim or to a file, Dave
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Dave Lyons !
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ScottG25 In argv...
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AFL Jim GA Dave
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug
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Dave Lyons Standard-out can _be_ a file, Jim. Ha. :) Scott, if you really
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want to
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Dave Lyons avoid shell calls, it seems you'll have to open up a directory and
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call
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AFL Jim :P
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Dave Lyons GET_DIR_ENTRY repeatedly & write code to test the names against
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the wildcard
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Dave Lyons specified. Not a trivial task: you'd probably be better off
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using the
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Dave Lyons INIT_WILDCARD and NEXT_WILDCARD (sumthin like that) shell calls.
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ga
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ScottG25 I agree, generally, Dave, but portability is an issue...The way
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I'm thinking of
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott, Doug
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ScottG25 doing it involves something like an ls call and then searching for
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the closest
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ScottG25 matches. It's not too easy, tho.
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Dave Lyons Well, gee...the _portable_ way is for the shell to do all the
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wildcard
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Dave Lyons expansion. "ls" isn't even an APW command unless you alias it.
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(Does the
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Dave Lyons SHELL shell command expand aliases?)
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ScottG25 I never said it was going to run under APW.... I did say that it
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had to avoid
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave), Doug
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ScottG25 shell calls, tho. If you try to pipe a wildcard type into a
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character output
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DaviesDoug !
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ScottG25 routine that searches for the end of file under Apw, EOF seems to
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be rather
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Dave, Doug), Doug
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ScottG25 quickly ignored.
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ScottG25 So I'm staying AWAY from APW in this little ditty.
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DaviesDoug The GSOS calls sound like the way to go to me........
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DaviesDoug all this on an itty bitty apple.....try a UNIX machine
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Coach101 !
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Doug, Coach), Doug
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AFL Jim Dave, Doug - are you done?
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DaviesDoug .done.
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ScottG25 Funny thing coach... the exact routine I am talking about works
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under Unix.
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AFL Jim GA Coach
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ScottG25 No not coach.. I meant doug... sorry..
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Coach101 Scott, are you having problems recognizing the EOF when reading
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Coach101 from <standard input> ?
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ScottG25 Yep!
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Coach101 Are you useing GsOs/ProDos16 reads?
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ScottG25 What ever <stdio.h> does, I'm doing...
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ScottG25 I haven't broken it out or used NiftyList on it, tho.
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Coach101 Dont know there, but with a GsOs read a transfer count
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Coach101 of 0 (zero) with the first byte of the input buffer (the byte
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that
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AFA Gary J Q = Scott (Coach), Doug
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Coach101 was not transferred!) set to zero (0) means EOF. GA
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ScottG25 Ah... ok....I'll look for that then... Thanks!
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ScottG25 Done..
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AFL Jim Doug, your up on the question queue. GA
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DaviesDoug Has anyone had any luck with Readln's or Writeln's in a CDA in
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either ORCA....
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AFL Jim (you're)
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DaviesDoug or TML pascal!
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AFL Jim They work in ORCA.
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DaviesDoug Not on mine
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DaviesDoug have version 1.2, the most recent!
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AFL Jim Have you started the texttools?
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DaviesDoug No, should I? ORCA doesn't put that in my code?
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AFA Gary J Q = Doug
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AFL Jim and initialized them as Pascal devices?
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DaviesDoug Great, THANKS!!!!
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AFA Gary J Another satisfied customer... :)
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DaviesDoug ?
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AFL Jim GA Doug, you still have the floor/
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DaviesDoug Ok, one more question since the queue is empty........
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DaviesDoug The APW manual says that in the Advanced linker you can specify a
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KIND field...
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AFL Jim (ut oh)
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DaviesDoug that is one WORD....I can only get it to recognize one byte....
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Matt DTS !
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AFL Jim GA Matt
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DaviesDoug If the value is bigger than one byte the linker tells me it's too
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large...
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AFA Gary J Q = Doug (Matt)
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Matt DTS That's because the APW Manual was written to descibe OMF 2.0,
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which the Linker
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DaviesDoug I've talked this over with DTS....just wanted more input
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AFL Jim When the time is right
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DaviesDoug and create conversation
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DaviesDoug .done matt.
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Matt DTS doesn't generate. (I finally tracked this down in an ERS today.)
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Ran out of
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Matt DTS bits in the one-byte field, so it was expanded. I think COMPACT
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might let...
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Matt DTS ...you set it, but I haven't tried in a long time. GA.
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DaviesDoug doesn't....but I wrote a utility.....
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DaviesDoug that will do it....as soon as JIM posts it!
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DaviesDoug .done.
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AFA Gary J <just got it in the library>
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Dave Lyons How does the util work? Changes kind of first segment, or what?
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DaviesDoug you type..... OMF <pathname> <segname> $<kind>
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AFA Gary J Q = Doug
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Dave Lyons Ah...good.
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DaviesDoug lets you change any segment ............ DONE...
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DaviesDoug must compact it first though.... Really done!
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AFL Jim Look at that, it's time to call this meeting to a close and
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there's no
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Matt DTS Does it return an error if you try it on an OMF 1.0 file?
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AFL Jim questions left.
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Matt DTS (well, almost none.)
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFL Jim Maaaaaaaaattt
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DaviesDoug Yes, of course matt, I'm am azzz good programmer!!!
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Matt DTS (ok)
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Matt DTS See y'all next week, then!
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JSchober Night, Matt...
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AFL Jim Thanks for coming tonight, everyone!
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Dave Lyons Night, Matt...
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AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt.
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ShrinkIt bye matt
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AFC Mark Night, Matt
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Matt DTS G'night, all!
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AFL Jim See ya tomorrow, Mat
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DaviesDoug Open conference if anyone wants to stay
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AFL Jim right, Doug
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DaviesDoug I have lot of questions....as matt knows
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Dave Lyons Jim, see if you can find out about the Note Seq priority
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question...I don't
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Dave Lyons know where else to look.
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AFL Jim I've noticed that, too, Doug and I've only been out here a week.
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DaviesDoug :)
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AFL Jack Jim, can you answer a 'hardware' question for me?
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AFL Jim I've got to go read the boards. Remember, a contest is starting
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this month in
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Dave Lyons We can try, Jack....
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AFL Jim both the Mac and Apple II Development Forums. I'll have details up
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online this
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AFL Jim week.
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AFL Jack what is the size of the GS ROM? I want to update an older GS .
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AFL Jim Sure Jack
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JSchober 128K, Jack. Banks FE and FF.
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DaviesDoug Anyone know how to get a CMS drive to work with the Apple SCSI
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card?
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AFL Jack ok, thanks! :)
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AFL Jim Mine's about an inch by an inch and a half :)
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Dave Lyons Yes, both ROM 00 and ROM 01 are 128K.
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AFA Gary J :) <I was thinking the same thing... :) >
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AFL Jack <groan> California like getting to you, huh Jim?
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AFL Jim yep
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JSchober Doug... well, it'll work just fine, but the >32 meg volumes must
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be partitioned
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AFL Jack all this sunshine....
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AFL Marty <ugh>
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AFA Gary J Jim, you need to have your OA-I ID changed. :)
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JSchober using GS/OS or whatever. The CMS hardware partitioning will
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conflict with the
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DaviesDoug Mine won't even be recognized....
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DaviesDoug I have the version c roms
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JSchober Apple software partitioning.
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DaviesDoug It works with the CMS card just fine
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AFL Jim Yep, I just got a "real" address today.
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AFA Gary J You found a house?
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AFL Jack Anyone know where I can get an apple SCSI card for a good price?
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JSchober Can you access/format it with the ADU, Doug?
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Dave Lyons Gary, Jim's info is right...he's _from_ Kansas City...doesn't say
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he's actually
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Dave Lyons there! :)
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DaviesDoug Any pins need setting on the card?
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AFL Jim You must reinitialize, Doug
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DaviesDoug NO
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AFA Gary J hehe! Right, Dave.
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JSchober Ummm... (does the Apple card HAVE pins??) I think all ya' gotta
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do is format
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JSchober it. However, on a >32 meg volume, the first partition WILL be
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accessible with
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DaviesDoug Well...this really isn't a CMS drive....
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JSchober the Apple card, no matter what.
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DaviesDoug it's a make-shift drive.....
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JSchober (oh, it's not a CMS drive... that changes things... :)
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DaviesDoug it's a conair drive (it's a SCSI drive)
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