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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
July 4, 1989   10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic:   8-Bit Programming
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar  (AFL Dyfet)

Coach101   Does everyone run with the machine's cover in place?
AFL Scott  Yes.. I do!
AFA Gary J I do, Coach.  I have a Kensington System Saver, though
AFL Scott  System saver here, too!
AFA Gary J It works well enough
AFL Scott  Wish it had a filter, tho..
AWGS Marty system savers here also
Coach101   Mine goes top-less.....  You can almost tell what is going on by
Coach101   sound from the power supply
AFL Scott  Ever listened to a TWGS, Coach?  The thing whistles!
Dave Lyons Lid in place, fan inside.  911 errors sometimes on this machine
           (at home), but
Dave Lyons none at work.
AFA Gary J Yes, me too, Dave.
Coach101   I take a close listen when my TWGS gets here this week.
AWGS Marty My 911 errors have disappeared since I installed the system
           saver.
AFA Gary J I USED to say that I've never had a 911 since I got my System
           Saver, but since
Richard LT brb
AFA Gary J I moved I've had a few.  Must have something to do with the Air
           conditioning,
AFA Gary J or ventalation.  (Of course we had a high temprature of 117 today
           which didn't
AFA Gary J help  :)
AFL Scott  When the AC was out here, I had a couple of complete stalls, but
           no 911 errors
AFL Scott  here... it was 90+ inside, tho.
AWGS Marty It was rather nice here :)
AFA Gary J How nice was it???
AWGS Marty Wasn't no 117 degrees :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J That would be nice :)
AWGS Marty I'm glad I don't live in the desert :)
AFA Gary J Ok...Dyfet will be along in a moment...  I'll start here without
           him..
AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum.  Tonight's topic is
           8-bit programming.
AFA Gary J We'll be using forum protocol to maintain order in our discussion,
           so if you 
AFA Gary J have a question, type a "?" on a line by itself.  If you have a
           comment on the
AFA Gary J current topic, type a "!" on a line by itself.  I'll keep track of
           who's up
AFA Gary J next and call on you when it's your turn.
AFA Gary J Do we have any questions to start off the evening?  (Besides how
           to survive a
AFA Gary J 117 degree day???  :)
Dave Lyons !
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons Thank you all for coming tonight....
Dave Lyons Seriously, don't all yell at once.  No questions on Technotes,
           things you'd
AFA Gary J (Yes  :)
Dave Lyons like to see, or anything like that??  ga
AFA Gary J I hear this batch of technotes is going to be a biggie...
Matt DTS   Fewer stupid beards in Apple II DTS?  <just a thought>
Dave Lyons Yup.
JohnS344   when will gsos 50 ship
Matt DTS   Version FIFTY?  GEEZ!
AFA Gary J :)
Dave Lyons GS/OS 3.0 will ship with System Software 5.0.
Dave Lyons :)
AWGS Marty (That's GS/OS 3.0)
AFA Gary J GA with your question, Richard..
Coach101   You left out "Summer" Dave
AFA Gary J :)
Richard LT Is there any good assembl language routines floating around Alink
           or assemblers
AWGS Marty He also left out 'RSN' :)
Richard LT :)
AFA Gary J Routines or assemblers?
Richard LT either
Richard LT can't speell...
AFA Gary J There's lots of sample source code, if that's what you mean.   
           Look in our
AFA Gary J source code library, or in the Apple Computer Releases section of
           our Software
AFA Gary J Library.  There's a section on Sample Source Code (as released by
           Apple) there.
AFA Gary J We used to have a demo of LISA 8/16 here, but I don't think we do
           anymore.
Richard LT Thanks, signed on recently and just now getting my bearings.
AFA Gary J (I may be wrong)
AFA Gary J GA Dave
Dave Lyons Richard, are you looking for anything in particular, or just any
           sample
Dave Lyons code?
AFA Gary J (Hi Dyfet!)
Richard LT Well, I'm starting assembly programming. So anything would be
           helpful.
AFA Gary J What machine are you using?
Richard LT 2e
AFA Gary J Ok...that makes a difference.  All of the sample source I
           mentioned that is
AFA Gary J supplied by Apple is for the IIGS.
Richard LT I thought this was 8-bit discussion...:(
AFA Gary J There are some 8-bit type source code samples in our source code
           library.
Richard LT :)
AFA Gary J It is, but sometimes we get off of the track :)
Richard LT heh heh
AFA Gary J sorry  :)
AFA Gary J Anything else, Richard?
Dave Lyons Try back issues of magazines I guess, and ask if you have specific
           questions.
Dave Lyons (ga)
Richard LT nope, I'll nose around after the conf.
AFA Gary J What other languages do you know?
Richard LT thanks...Basic (don't laugh:)
AFA Gary J BASIC is still a good language  (not laughing :)
Richard LT wheew:) I neew a little speed for my "planned" applications.
Matt DTS   So is English - it's a shame more people don't use it correctly
Richard LT neew=need
AFA Gary J In fact, if you program long enough in BASIC, you will find lots
           of reasons to
AFA Gary J learn assembly language  :)
AFL Dyfet  :)
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
AWGS Marty (good manners is better than correct English)
Coach101   With the upcoming arrival of system 5.0 for the II-GS will there
           be a
Coach101   new ProDos-8 that goes along with it and (if there is a new one)
           what
Coach101   will it mean/do for the 8-bit world?   GA
Pest II    Matt Developer question of the month: how do you pronounce your
           last name? 
Matt DTS   There is a new version of P8, and it's got a few bug fixes in
           it.
Matt DTS   No significant new features - DESTROY won't trash the volume if it
           gets an
Matt DTS   error while in progress; it can open subdirectories that the
           ProDOS FST put
Matt DTS   as lowercase, and a few other little things.  GA
AFA Gary J (Jump in, Dyfet.. this is YOUR forum!!  :)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, this is more a question snuck in, but I recall that when P16
           was first
Coach101   What will a ProDos-8 application think a "forked" file is?
AFL Dyfet  introduced, a sneaky little repath call was added to the ProDOS 8
           kernal.  Is/
AFL Dyfet  will anything ever be done with this call, or has it been removed
           since the
AFL Dyfet  avent of GS/OS?
Matt DTS   P8 still doesn't deal with extended files - it doesn't support
           that storage
Matt DTS   type.  There is no mechanism in P8 equivalent to GS/OS's
           "ChangePath" call.
Matt DTS   GA.
AFA Gary J Has anything been changed in BASIC.SYSTEM on System Disk 5.0?
Matt DTS   Yes.
Matt DTS   Next question?
AFA Gary J What?
Matt DTS   Ah.  Quick tonight, aren't we?
AFA Gary J :)
Matt DTS   The CHAIN/STORE problem where it wanted one branch to do two
           different things..
Matt DTS   ...has been fixed; the bug where the old length of a file was
           retained when a
Matt DTS   file was BSAVEd over itself has been fixed, and a new command
          "MTR" was added
Matt DTS   for those of us who can't type "call -151" right on the first
           three tries.
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Matt DTS   Note that complete change histories for both P8 and Basic.System
           are coming...
Matt DTS   ...in the July TN batch.
Dave Lyons BSAVE now truncates a file to the length you just saved if and
           only if you
AFA Gary J ...which is due out...in July???  :)
Dave Lyons don't use the B parameter.  It worked the way it used to on
           purpose, but it
Dave Lyons wasn't always the behavior you wanted.  This way you get the best
           of both
Dave Lyons worlds.  ga
Matt DTS   (Dave disagrees with me on that one - I just think it was a
           bug.)
Matt DTS   (Maybe deliberately done but still *wrong*, IMHO.)  GA
AFA Gary J :)
Dave Lyons (Deliberate and *useful*. :-)
Matt DTS   <pbhbhbhbhbh>
Coach101   Round - 2 
JohnS344   h
AFA Gary J Did you have anything else, Coach?
Coach101   Nope..
AFA Gary J GA, Marty
AWGS Marty When will the July technotes ne available on ALPE?
Coach101   Good ?
AFA Gary J As soon as we get them  :)
AFA Gary J ..which will be...??  (my question... :)
Matt DTS   There's 150+ pages on paper, and someone has to convert them all
           by hand into..
AWGS Marty Would someone be so kind as to venture a guess as to the date?
Matt DTS   ...ASCII TEXT files, including all of Jim Luther's Pascal-style
           syntax...
Matt DTS   ...diagrams for Installer scripts.  It could take a while.
Dave Lyons How 'bout "Summer"?  :-)
Mick11     july 4(?)
AFA Gary J ugh
AWGS Marty I don't want a life story, just a date.
Matt DTS   I don't care what you want.  You got the truth.  Problems?
AWGS Marty You have a definite attitude problem.  If you don't know, just say
           so.
AWGS Marty (done for now, gary)
AFA Gary J GA, Pest
Pest II    The Mac and the GS have some nifty tools...are there any in the
           works for
Pest II    the classic 8-bit machines
Mick11     'classic'?
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons What sort of tools do you want?
Pest II    Well, I just got the window interface toolkit from APDA
Pest II    twould be nice if there were a completed version
Dave Lyons Various people have written their own windowish tools for their
           ProDOS 8
Dave Lyons applications--don't know if any of them have donated the things to
           the
Dave Lyons public domain or not.
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFA Gary J There are a couple of things in our library related to that. 
           Can't remember
AFA Gary J specifics off hand.
Pest II    I guess that's all for now...except I want my Dogcow!
Richard LT You mentioned a new version of ProDOS 8. Can it be downloaded from
           AppleLink?ga
Matt DTS   Fear not, the Dogcow thrives.
AFA Gary J GA, Richard
AFA Gary J It WILL be available here, when system disk 5.0 is released.
AFA Gary J But not yet  :)
AFA Gary J RSN
Dave Lyons (System SOFTWARE 5.0.)
Richard LT Thanks, that's all...
Mick11     how long do you think it will be?
AFA Gary J ..er, yeah, System SOFTWARE 5.0.
AFA Gary J About 1600K
Coach101   Geez, you are as picky as Matt now Dave....
Matt DTS   (I'm not picky about things that don't matter to me.  You should
           see my house!)
AFA Gary J This summer, officially, Mick.
Mick11     i thought it was prodos 8...
AFA Gary J GA, Dave.
Mick11     1600k?......isn't that a little big? 
Dave Lyons System Software 5.0 for the GS *includes* a new version of ProDOS
           8.  It's
JohnS344   how will we know when 50 is released my dealer says fall
Dave Lyons the P8 file in the System folder.  You can take that file to
           another disk,
Richard LT nope, ga
Dave Lyons rename it to PRODOS, and >presto<, you've got a new ProDOS 8. 
           ga
AFA Gary J Ok, you're up, Scott.
AFL Scott  Does GEOS have an application callable toolkit for their
           environment?
AFL Dyfet  I believe they have a complete developers package including an
           assembler and
AFL Dyfet  some other tools for constructing GEOS packages.  At least they do
           for the 128
AFL Dyfet  Version, from what I recall in trade literature.
AFA Gary J Anything else, Scott?
AFL Scott  Nope, I'm done... Thanks!
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101   Back to a previous issue, if I create a file with a resource fork
           in it
Coach101   will a ProDos-8 program be able to get at the non-resource fork? 
           Will
Coach101   ProDos-8 even tell me the file exists?   GA
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons No, ProDOS 8 will not be able to get at the resource fork. 
           Commands like
Dave Lyons OPEN and DESTROY will return "unsupported storage type" (error
           $4B, I think),
Dave Lyons and things like READ and WRITE are unusable because you can't open
           it.  Last
Dave Lyons I checked, you *can* use GET_FILE_INFO and SET_FILE_INFO (so you
           can change
Dave Lyons the filetype (not the storage type), lock/unlock the thing, etc). 
           You may
Dave Lyons be able to rename it--don't remember.  The file *will* appear in
           your
Dave Lyons directory listings.  P8 applications can get at the data in the
           resource fork
Dave Lyons only by using block-level commands (READ_BLOCK and WRITE_BLOCK),
           and this
Dave Lyons is not recommended.  ga
Coach101   Bear with me, 
AFL Dyfet  Or with AppleTalk on an AppleShare volume, you can get to the
           resource fork
Coach101   From a ProDos-8 point of view, is a forked file one or two
           files?
AFL Dyfet  through the extended AppleShare services.
Coach101   Dyfet:  Cute!
Dave Lyons Whoops--above, I should have been more clear.  P8 calls can't get
           to *either*
Dave Lyons fork of an extended file.  Not even the data fork.
Dave Lyons Dyfet speaks the truth w.r.t. files on AppleShare servers.
Coach101   Done,  thanks for the info.
AFA Gary J Good question, Coach.
Dave Lyons From a ProDOS 8 point of view, forked file don't exist at all,
           except for
Dave Lyons SPECIAL_OPEN_FORK for AppleShare files.  ga
AFA Gary J Ok, anymore questions out there?
Coach101   When does summer end?
Matt DTS   September 23rd, according to my calendar <groan!>.
JSchober   (hiyuz!)
AFA Gary J That's not TOO far off (time has been flying..)
Coach101   Only a nearly "whole" quarter!
Matt DTS   Next time they want to announce a product before it's finished,
           THEY...
Matt DTS   ...should come on-line every week and answer the "Where is it?"
           questions!
Matt DTS   <the infamous THEY - responsible for all our problems.  It's THEIR
           fault.>
AFA Gary J :)
JSchober   Are we talking about System 5, maybe?
AFA Gary J I appreciate them announcing it.  I realize it is a real headache
           for you 
Coach101   Once THEY have made the announcement, THEY should give some status
           reports!
AFA Gary J guys, but it's nice to know something is coming.
Coach101   FOR SURE!!!!!!!!!!!!
AFA Gary J Do you know if Apple is planning to put out another press release
           announcing
Pest II    Oh no...not THEM!
Coach101   Not complaining,   just anxious
Matt DTS   I should change my screen name to "ThisSummer"
AFA Gary J the SHIPPING of System SOFTWARE 5.0?
JSchober   hehehe
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J (I'm just wondering how I'll know it is officially released when
           it DOES
AFA Gary J happen)
AFA Gary J GA, Marty
Coach101   Careful about those specifics (THIS) Matt
AWGS Marty Then again, there _is_ something to be said for dates and
           deadlines...
AWGS Marty without them, very little would ever get done.
AWGS Marty (done)
Coach101   This evenings fire works displays DO NOT herald the arrival of
           5.0
AFL Dyfet  :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFA Gary J Too bad.
JSchober   :)