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539 lines
24 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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September 26, 1989 10:00 pm Eastern Time
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Topic: Open Discussion
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Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
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AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. I'm Gary Jacobson
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(sitting in for
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AFA Gary J Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet), who is getting settled from a move this
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evening.
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AFA Gary J Tonight our topic is an open discussion, so we can talk about
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anything you'd
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AFA Gary J like (AppleFest, or whatever). We'll be using forum protocol to
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maintain
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AFA Gary J some sane-ness here, so if you have a question, type a "?" on a
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line by
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AFA Gary J itself, or if you have a comment on the current topic, type a "!"
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on a line
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AFA Gary J by itself.
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AFA Gary J Does anyone have any questions or comments they'd like to start
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off with
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AFA Gary J this evening?
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BradleyL1 Can anyone tell me what problems there were in System Software
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5.0 that are fixed in 5.01?
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AFA Parik BASIC.SYSTEM : the infamous bload problem. GS.OS :
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init manager
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AFA Parik sometimes unable to sense which screen is up for displaying/format
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erase dialog
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AFA Parik Pro.FTS: getdirentry returns wrong buf size errors, and it goes
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on. i'll
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AFA Parik post it in operating system in LETS DISCUSS. Q: BradleyL1 :)
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons There is officially no such thing as 5.0.1--the official releases
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go right
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Dave Lyons from 5.0 to 5.0.2. In addition to what Parik mentioned and/or is
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going to
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Dave Lyons post, 5.0.2 fixes problem where, if you're very unlucky and
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running low
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Dave Lyons on available memory, you can get a fatal error during a memory
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manager
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AFA Gary J Q = BradleyL1 (Dave, Gibber)
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Dave Lyons operation (while GS/OS tries to get rid of the cache (5.0 doesn't
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mess up
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Dave Lyons your disk, but you don't get a chance to save your files, either).
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Also,
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Dave Lyons 5.0.2 has Standard File sorting in a more reasonable order
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(ignoring case),
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Dave Lyons and the NoteAlert, CautionAlert, and StopAlert calls were fixed so
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that they
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Dave Lyons never mess up memory they don't own (another
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if-you-get-very-unlucky sort of
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Dave Lyons bug), and [finally] the GetNumNDAs, AddToRunQueue, and
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RemoveFromRunQueue
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Dave Lyons calls were fixed to work properly on ROM 1 (on 5.0 they prevent
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NDAs from
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Dave Lyons receiving keystrokes, until you reboot). done
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AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
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A GibberFC Thanks both Dave and Parik.... just haven't been able to get the
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info I have
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AFA Gary J Q = BradleyL1 (Gibber)
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A GibberFC needed for a while....... Your info will HELP and hopefully my
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Application for
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A GibberFC "Partner" with Apple will go through so I have the info at
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hand.... thanks GA
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AFA Gary J Ok, any other questions or comments?
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AFA Gary J GA, SkySinger
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SkySinger I've heard some mention by Apple software engineers that they are
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toying around
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BradleyL1 Were there any fixes to the text editor toolbox, Resource
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Manager?
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SkySinger with new music and animations tools. Anyone know anything about
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them?
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons I don't know for sure, but the stuff I've heard
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Dave Lyons was that there may be versions of some of that stuff available
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from APDA
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Dave Lyons -eventually- (not now). ga
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AFA Gary J GA, Parik
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AFA Parik The new music tools will be available early next year. They ROCK.
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Its very
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AFA Parik simple to use, you just sequence your sounds with a keyboard using
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a program
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AFA Parik that will be included, save the file, and then pass the file info
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and it'll
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AFA Parik play your song! Its very powerful, and will blow the amiga, st in
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the music
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AFA Parik department. ga
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A GibberFC (now we need speed) ;)
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AFA Gary J GA, Doc
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Doctor Why Also, they demoed a 5-8 minute song(s) with 15 instrumnents
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Doctor Why And it only took 60k on disk. GA
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AFA Gary J Anything else, Sky?
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SkySinger Uh... give me a few minutes.
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AFA Gary J Looks like Bradley's not here anymore, GA with your question,
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RTAFT:
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RTAFT Can anyone add any details to the Video Toolkit mentioned in PR on
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A'Link?
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons I'm not sure I understand the question: is it about the VideoMix
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Toolst
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Dave Lyons for the GS, for use with the Video Overlay card?
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RTAFT That's the one!
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Dave Lyons Ok...what about it?
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RTAFT When will it be ready for shipping?
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Dave Lyons It -is- shipping...it's toolset 33, and it comes on the
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System.Tools disk
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Dave Lyons with System Software 5.0[.2]. As I understand it, APDA has been
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shipping
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Dave Lyons developer notes for it for at least a couple months now, but I
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haven't
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Dave Lyons actually checked the catalog for it.
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Dave Lyons (GA)
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AFA Gary J Anything else, RTAFT?
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RTAFT VidClip IIgs Developer's Toolkit is the one, are they the same?
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Dave Lyons Nope--VidClip is a 3rd-party product,
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Dave Lyons which was demo'd at the Fest. I don't know when that ships.
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RTAFT OK, Thanks! GA
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Dave Lyons (done)
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AFA Gary J Ok Mark, You're next. GA
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MarkHulme1 I was wondering what ever happened with Apple Music Label company
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suing
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MarkHulme1 Apple.
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MarkHulme1 With all this music capabilities coming out, how they get around
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that?
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AFA Gary J I haven't heard anything on that for a while. Anyone else?
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Coach101 I am not sure if it is related, but
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AFA Gary J (I used to read about that on NewsBytes...now it's here
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on-line)
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Coach101 the intro to the music tools in volume III contains what I
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interpreted
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Coach101 as a legal disclaimer about the II-gs not being a musical
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instrument.. ga
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MarkHulme1 :D
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MarkHulme1 Sounds like a way to get around it. GA
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AFA Gary J ..just an electronic gadget :)
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AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
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A GibberFC I heard that part of a Secret Agreement that Ringo Starr is going
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to become
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A GibberFC The CEO of Apple..... but that is just rumor ;)
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AFA Gary J heheh
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Coach101 :)
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AFA Gary J Maybe he'll pay more attention to the II line.
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AFA Gary J (Apple IIGS, the White edition)
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AFA Gary J Ok, Coach... you had the next question GA
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Coach101 Did I miss something earlier.... Is there officially something
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beyond
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Coach101 5.0 at this point? ga
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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A GibberFC afk
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Dave Lyons Yes--we were telling people about its existence at AFest, but it
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isn't
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Dave Lyons quite available yet. ga
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Coach101 Thanks..... ga
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AFA Gary J Sometime this winter, right? :)
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Doctor Why cancel my ?
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Dave Lyons No, sometime SOON.
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Gary J Great!
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Coach101 Next spring for availability from APDA. :)
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AFA Gary J Ok, next question is from SkySinger again. GA
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SkySinger Parik, about those new music tools... do you know if it handles
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the keyboard
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SkySinger input as midi data? The implication would be that you could play
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any pre-
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SkySinger corded standard midi file thru the GS chip with the tools.
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AFA Gary J (Parik's not here...:)
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SkySinger Anybody else?
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AFA Gary J It sounded that way from his description. GA, Gibber
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A GibberFC That would put it *TO* close to a musical instrument.....
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A GibberFC That would really get the beatles going.... hehe
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SkySinger No, its more like a record player.
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AFA Gary J GA, Doc
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Doctor Why I missed part of the demo, but I believe that it takes MIDI input,
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also
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Doctor Why they said that there will be an instrument editor available fro
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APDA soon.
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AFA Gary J Anything els, Sky?
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Doctor Why that's soon and not SOON. :) GA
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SkySinger Thanks. If it arrives it could make it much easier to put great
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music into
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SkySinger application. GA
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AFA Gary J Parik just FN'ed me and said that it did take MIDI input...like a
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sound
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AFA Gary J studio.
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AFA Gary J OK, next question is from A2GS. GA
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A2GS Oh, so soon (startled)...
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II GS1 What new products are coming out for the GS and where is it going.
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(gs)
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II GS1 *blush*
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A2GS I ported some files over from the Amiga (ugh) to the GS and I
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didn't realize
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AFA Gary J Hold on a second, II GS1 :) You're after Coach
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II GS1 oh sorry
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A2GS but the program on the Amiga was sending files via Xmodem CRC and
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I was
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A2GS receiving them Xmodem Standard...the files were sent Via a Null
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modem cable...
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A2GS they seem to have come across fine......Did they????
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons Yes. ga
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Dave Lyons :)
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A2GS Thanx :) DAve
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AFA Gary J Coach, it looks like you're up next. GA
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Coach101 Skip me...
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AFA Gary J Ok... can you ask your question again, II GS1?
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AFA Gary J GA
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II GS1 What is the fate of the Apple IIGS? I have heard many rumors. Why
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arent there m
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II GS1 more programs for it?
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AFA Gary J GA, A2GS
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II GS1 yes?
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A2GS I don't work for Apple so I can't say for sure and even if I did I
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couldn't say
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A2GS But,
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A2GS that question was asked to Jean Louis Gassee at the opening
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Keynote on friday
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A2GS at the FEST and he basically side stepped the question on whether
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Apple planned
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A2GS to drop the II by 1992, by just saying that a lot of Apple
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Engineers would be
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A2GS unhappy, which to me was clearly not an answer, I have a tape of
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the Keynote
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A2GS which I just listed to (again) this afternoon and I'm very angry
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(personally)
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A2GS with that FLIMSY answer!
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AFA Gary J Transcribe it and upload it :) I'd like to see some of his
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EXACT words :)
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A2GS GA
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons I like the question better when you asked "Where is the GS going?"
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*My* GS is
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Dave Lyons staying right here in front of my face for a very long time. I
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-do- work for
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Dave Lyons Apple, so I can't talk about future plans--especially not the ones
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I know
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Dave Lyons something about. Third party plans I can't talk about because I
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don't knw
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Dave Lyons anything about them--if there are products you want to buy, write
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letters to
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Dave Lyons developers & let them know. I don't think the GS software
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situation is
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Dave Lyons -terribly- bad, but I do think it would be better if -more- people
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paid for
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Dave Lyons the software they use. It's very discouraging to spend a lot of
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time and
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Dave Lyons money developing software & not have it sell very well--and it
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definitely
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Dave Lyons takes more effort to write a -good- piece of GS software than it
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does to
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Dave Lyons write a text-based app for the Apple II, for example. ga
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AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
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A GibberFC Frankly...When I get the parts...My //gs will be going about 12 to
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15mhz....
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II GS1 hows that?
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A2GS Huh?
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A GibberFC I am working on some projects that I hope will enhance the //gs
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experience
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A GibberFC but I really get angered by the amount of "Leaked" info about all
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the new
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II GS1 Well thank you for the thourough answers. :-)
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A GibberFC Mac stuff that is being developed and we aren't even let in on
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A GibberFC info to make clear a _promise_ that was given to us at Applefest a
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scant 12
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A GibberFC months ago...
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A GibberFC I can't work on //gs stuff all day long...I sort of have to
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support a wife and
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A GibberFC family.... so I have to take my time..... Keep looking up.. the //
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isn't dead
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A GibberFC yet
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A GibberFC ga
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AFA Gary J GA, SkySinger (even though II GS1 left :)
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SkySinger At AFest in Boston Steve Glass (I think that's his name) of Apple
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told me that
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SkySinger the GS is selling better than any individual model of the Mac.
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Thats the kind
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SkySinger of thing that would keep Apple interested in keeping the GS line
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going. Its
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SkySinger really a great machine. GA.
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AFA Gary J GA, A2GS
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A2GS Getting back to what Dave said about buying software...keep in
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mind Piracy
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A2GS killed the 8-bit Atari and it seems to be doing it again for the
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ST the only
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A2GS thing currently keeping it alive is it's MIDI support and one
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other thing...
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A2GS as far as the GS goes (speed wise) for those who were not at the
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FEST...
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A2GS Bill Mensch put Gassee on the spot when he came up to a microphone
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and held
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A2GS up 3 12 Mhz 65816 and said that they were ready for immediate
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shipping (I got
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A2GS a 9 Mhz one from him later (now if I only had a TWGS))
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A2GS I'd like to see Apple's excuse for not having a faster GS now!
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A2GS GA
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Dave Lyons Neat! Hey, with 3 of those chips, we could ship 3 fast machines,
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eh? :-)
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Gary J GA, Coach
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Coach101 Where is the //gs going.... It is going where Apple wants it to
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go....
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A2GS :) (I'll take one now!)
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Coach101 My reading of Apple's tea leaves, is that Apple is targeting the
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Coach101 usage area (lets get Johnny the same machine for home that he
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has
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Coach101 at school). I do NOT think you are going to find many //gs's in
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Coach101 the small business area. The //'s day in business use is past..
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Smal
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Coach101 business is the province of the Mac/IBM war (and I think the Mac
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is a
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Coach101 better proposition for a small business than a //gs). I do think
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that
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Coach101 CLARIS in particular has blinders on in not seeing the usage of
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Coach101 their //gs products in the home. I would really like to see
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Claris
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Coach101 at future Afest's. Now.... Mensch vs. Gassee.....
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A2GS 10 rounds
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Coach101 The 65816 I pulled out of my machine when I installed my TransWarp
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was
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Coach101 not made by WDC (General Instrument, I think). Apple's volume and
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business
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Coach101 stature are such that I doubt they would design/announce/ship a
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product
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Coach101 that they did not have second sources for all the parts. The loss
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of
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Coach101 face (which would effect ALL sales of APPLE products) would be
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devastating
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Coach101 and must be avoided. I doubt you could buy 50,000 65816s @ 12mhz
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from
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Coach101 WDC.. Mensch has to realize the situation and so (personal
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opinion
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Coach101 following), Mensch took a cheap shot (unsportmanlike conduct) at
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Gassee
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Coach101 done.... ga
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AFA Gary J GA, Dwight
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DwightW1 from one of the apple magazines, it would appear that the //gs is
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destined to
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DwightW1 become the low end Mac..... ga
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AFA Gary J GA, Gibber
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A GibberFC Look it takes more than just plugging in a faster chip in a //gs
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to make it go
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A GibberFC faster..... It would take a whole mother-board redesign.... Now...
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A GibberFC 3 years that the //gs has been shipping, we have seen the Mac go
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from 8 to
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A GibberFC 25mzh.... But please don't tell me in those 3 years that there
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hasn't been a
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A GibberFC faster 65816 developed...
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A GibberFC That has been Apple's excuse ever since the speed short comming
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has been in the
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A GibberFC limelight.
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A GibberFC Now as for Claris....
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A GibberFC I taked to Claris Tech Support..... They are telling people to use
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system 4.0
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A GibberFC to use Appleworks GS.... I asked if they were going to fix it to
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work under 5.0
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A GibberFC I was told it wasn't broken...... I told them to pull their heads
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out of their
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A GibberFC ***** that system 5.0 was the best piece of software EVER to ship
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for the //gs
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A GibberFC and if they wanted to see the sales of Appleworks GS continue...
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they should
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A GibberFC work the problems out.... compare this to Beagle Brothers who just
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Acquired
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A GibberFC Multiscribe GS and Multiscribe...
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A GibberFC Multiscribe GS has been recompiled to work under 5.0 and
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expressloads....
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A GibberFC This is the difference in the two companies.... Beagle cares for
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the // and the
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A GibberFC IIgs and Claris wants to use Appleworks and Appleworks GS as an
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"Investment"
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A GibberFC If AWGS had been a Macintosh program and a new piece of System
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software
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A GibberFC shipped and the product was Incompatible with it...Claris WOULD
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have a fix for
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A GibberFC it in less than 2 months....... Instead of "We are looking into a
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possibility
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A GibberFC of making it work with system 5.0"
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A GibberFC ga
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AFA Gary J GA, Doctor
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Doctor Why I wasn't there, but what I heard was that Mensch said that he
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could supply them
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A2GS Have some Oxygen Gibber :)
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AFA Gary J :)
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Doctor Why in quantity, right now. He implied that Apple has known this for a
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while and
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Doctor Why has not even contacted him. GA
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A2GS Unfortunately Coach, I don't think you have all the facts. First
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the GS could
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A2GS WHIP a standard IBM PC in many if not most applications, what's
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hurting the GS
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A2GS in the small business market is not the GS itself, but rather
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Apple's marketing
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A2GS and in fact a committee of dedicated Apple "People" was setup at
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the Kansas
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A2GS City conf. at had met with Apple this past Saturday to discuss
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among other
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A2GS things the Apple ]['s image problem. Second...as far as shipping
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the 65816
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A2GS Doctor Why bascially summed up most of what I was going to
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say...But I would
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A2GS like to add...where do you think General Instruments got the Mask
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to make the
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A2GS 65816 in your GS? From WDC and no place else...WDC does not
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actually
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A2GS manufacture the 816 they design it and then give to another
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company to make for
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A2GS them. Mensch isn't going to first make 50,000 816's and then
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speak to Apple
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A2GS first he's going to get a contract for them and then he'll put in
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an order for
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A2GS faster 816's in large quantity's. This is Business NOT sports,
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right now he
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A2GS has finished products of a faster 816 to prove that right now they
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ARE reliable
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A2GS and I even have test results of the 9 mhz chip I got, he had the
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same reliable
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A2GS results for his 12 Mhz chips also, he spoke up at the show because
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he wasn't
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A2GS getting anywhere with Apple until now! GA
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AFA Gary J Ok, Coach...looks like you have the last word on this one :)
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A2GS :)
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Coach101 I understand all of your points A2GS, but I still hold to my
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opinion...
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Coach101 On the Claris point, I have AWGS and so have had occasion to
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visit
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A2GS I have NO arguement there!
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Coach101 the appropriate folders here on ****. Sir AWGS (Tom Hoke) is
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active
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Coach101 and posted a note to the effect that the Claris position is that
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Coach101 AWGS is certified under 4.0 and not under 5.0. From Tom's
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presence,
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Coach101 concern, etc, I feel a new release of AWGS will be here in the
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not
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Coach101 too distant future. By the way, Tom is very helpful with any
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problems
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Coach101 you may run into..... ga
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons (Pardon me for being brief: note that AWGS 1.0v2 does ship in
|
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Dave Lyons ExpressLoad format. I -thought- there were some users reporting
|
|
it worked
|
|
Dave Lyons fine for them under 5.0; maybe they were lucky. I don't use it
|
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regularly
|
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Dave Lyons myself.) ga
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Coach101 It works pretty well for me.... The problems I have I feel
|
|
Coach101 are probably associated with AWGS irrespective of 4.0/5.0....
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Coach101 ga
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AFA Gary J Ok... Just a side note on the direction of the IIGS... I actually
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|
went to a
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AFA Gary J Macintosh show held here in Phoenix over the weekend, and was
|
|
surprised to see
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|
AFA Gary J 12 to 14 IIGS's in the exhibit hall. Hyper Studio was being
|
|
demo'ed by one
|
|
AFA Gary J company.
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|
AFA Gary J Next question is from Dwight. GA
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DwightW1 does any computer company other than Apple support two computers
|
|
with
|
|
DwightW1 incompatible microprocessors?
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|
DwightW1 .......ga
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|
A2GS I'll answer Dwight in a sec, getting back to what you just said
|
|
before Gary...
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|
A2GS I'll bet you none of those machines were being displayed at a
|
|
booth owned by
|
|
A2GS Apple...
|
|
A2GS Now as for Dwight's question...
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AFA Gary J You're right! But I was still surprised.
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|
A2GS Yes, Commodore makes a PC clone which I believe is 286 based and
|
|
the Amiga
|
|
A2GS which is 68000 based and the Commodore 64c which is 6502 based
|
|
(assuming they
|
|
A2GS are still making it)
|
|
A2GS But basically it's main machine is the Amiga which is not the
|
|
hottest selling
|
|
A2GS thing here in America but seems to be very strong in Europe.
|
|
A2GS GA
|
|
DwightW1 i asked because Apple probably wants to
|
|
DwightW1 move in one direction only. Could differing machines split the
|
|
company?
|
|
DwightW1 .... ga
|
|
A2GS Absolutely NO reason why it should!
|
|
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
|
|
Coach101 Dwight has a very good point... It would seem that a company
|
|
could
|
|
Coach101 operate more economically with only one line of processor
|
|
chip....
|
|
Coach101 Also, does any company actively market two of their products
|
|
into
|
|
Coach101 the same market? ga
|
|
AFA Gary J GA, A2
|
|
Coach101 oops... two competing products into the same marketplace
|
|
A2GS There is NO reason why the systems should have to compete with
|
|
each other...
|
|
A2GS Apple is ONE big company not 2 small companies wrestling for the
|
|
same market
|
|
A2GS they have about 9 Mac systems (lost count) all basically going for
|
|
the business
|
|
A2GS market and you don't see Apple killing any one of those systems no
|
|
matter how
|
|
A2GS similar they may be. Now in defense of Apple (for a change)
|
|
Gassee mentioned]
|
|
A2GS in his keynote address when asked a similar question... that this
|
|
the first
|
|
A2GS time Apple has ever been faced in the 12 years they've been around
|
|
with having
|
|
A2GS to deal with 2 successful machines in a wide range of markets and
|
|
their
|
|
A2GS basically learning one step at a time on how to deal with the
|
|
situation.
|
|
A2GS Personally, this excuse may hold for a while, but then again
|
|
they've had these
|
|
A2GS 2 set's of machines (Macintosh/][) in existance for the past 5-6
|
|
years. How do
|
|
A2GS you explain that Apple? GA
|
|
AFA Gary J Ok, We're loosing everyone here... Let's get to Doctor Why's
|
|
question
|
|
Doctor Why When can we expect SCSI Utilities from Apple that recognizes
|
|
resource forks?
|
|
A2GS LOL
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
Doctor Why I have 5.0 on my hard disk and I'm not happy about not being able
|
|
to back it up
|
|
Coach101 SCSI utilites and resource forks.... What do you mean...
|
|
JDavies1 Is there a Backup utility for use under System 5.0, mainly with
|
|
resource forks
|
|
Coach101 ProSel-16.... Works like a champ.....
|
|
JDavies1 no? (that's what I wanted to know)
|
|
Doctor Why I've heard that there was a problem with Prosel-16's backup.
|
|
AFA Gary J Yes, ProSel-16 works.
|
|
Doctor Why or at least a potential problem.
|
|
AFA Gary J What kind of problem?
|
|
Coach101 You need the correct version. Anything above 7.0 is OK (I
|
|
think)....
|
|
Coach101 Try DirectConnect in AUT for more information...
|
|
Doctor Why It was mentioned at an Applefest conference, but not in detail
|
|
Doctor Why Ok, I'll look there.
|
|
JDavies1 Thanks, from me too
|
|
|
|
|