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441 lines
19 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, March 27, 1990 10:00 pm eastern time
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Topic: Micol Advanced BASIC
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I think we will get started for tonight...Good evening
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everyone, and
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AFL Dyfet welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight we will be
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discussing
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HeadCase Mike how did you get the little speaker?
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AFL Dyfet Micol Basic, and we have a very special guest from Micol Systems
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with us here.
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Micol Sys Hi Mike! Glad you could be gere tonight!
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AFL Dyfet We will be using PROTOCOL tonight starting NOW. This means that
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if you wish
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AFL Dyfet to ask a question, simply enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if
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you wish to
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WAUC Jeff hello
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AFL Dyfet comment on the current question being discussed, enter a '!' on a
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line by
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AFL Dyfet itself. You will each be called in turn. Before we begin, I
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would like to
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AFL Dyfet now turn the floor over to our guest, so that he may have an
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opertunity to
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AFL Dyfet introduce himself. Go ahead, Ron, you have the floor now :)
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Micol Sys Hi all!
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Micol Sys I'm here tonight to answer
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Micol Sys all your questions about Micol Advanced BASIC...
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Micol Sys as a short overview...
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Micol Sys let me just say, there are two versions, one for the GS, and
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another for
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Micol Sys the IIe/c (w/128k). Both version use the full capabilities of the
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machine
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Micol Sys it was designed to run on, and offer far more than Applesoft, and
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many other
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Micol Sys compiled languages offer.
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Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC takes the best features of Pascal and C and
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combine them
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Micol Sys with the easy and flexibility of BASIC that you've all grown
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accustomed to.
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Micol Sys Which means that, unlike using Pascal and C, you can get all the
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programming
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Micol Sys power of a modern language, without having to start learning how
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to program
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Micol Sys all over again from scratch. You can build on your BASIC
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knowledge, instead
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Micol Sys of throwing it away.
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Micol Sys I'd now like to answer all of your questions... so please fire
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away!
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WAUC Jeff this really is not a question
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WAUC Jeff but I would like to know what is the queue of people who will be
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here
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WAUC Jeff this evening....that is all that I need to know GA
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Micol Sys I don't understand
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BLACKSHEEP !
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Micol Sys I have no control over who will be here tonight
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Micol Sys GA
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WAUC Jeff was wondering what the schedule it for who is presenting
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Micol Sys I am presenting, Jeff... My name is Ron Lewin, and my company is
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Micol Systems,
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WAUC Jeff Ok ....sorry maybe this was not a questionthat could be answered
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Micol Sys publishers of Micol Advanced BASIC
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Micol Sys GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, go ahead Blacksheep...
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WAUC Jeff i guess I just wanted to know what was planned...ok never mind my
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question
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BLACKSHEEP Will your program expand graph. and memory usage to the full
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amount of
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BLACKSHEEP your computer?
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AFL Dyfet A question snuck in as a comment :)
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Micol Sys Yes...
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Micol Sys if you have a GS... there are built in commands which allow you
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to
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Micol Sys use to Super Hires Graphics, and programs you create
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Micol Sys with Micol Advanced BASIC (MAB, for short) will automatically use
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the full
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Micol Sys memory of your GS... that means you can have programs and arrays
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up to 8 megs.
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BLACKSHEEP Great! Thanks. Done.
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Micol Sys If you have a IIe/c, MAB-e/c will use the full capabilities of
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that machine,
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Micol Sys for instance, 560x190 resolution (max), 16 colors (max), and
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Micol Sys your programs can be up to 74k... twice what Applesoft allows.
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GA
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Micol Sys plus built in sound commands for each
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Scott, you have the floor now...
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AFL Scott For those of us who just purchased Micol Advanced BASIC, can you
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tell us some
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AFL Scott of the programs we may have seen that were written with it? Also,
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can you tell
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AFL Scott us some of the real advantages of MAB over other dialects of GS
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specific
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AFL Scott basic?
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AFL Scott GA
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Micol Sys whew...
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Micol Sys ok... there have been many programs, both commercial and PD that
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have been
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Micol Sys written with MAB... I know that Tom Snyder publishes software
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written with MAB,
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Micol Sys as well as Britannica Software... MAB is ideal for developers
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because it
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Micol Sys makes it easier for them to bring their software which was written
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using
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Micol Sys structured compilers on other computers over to the Apple II
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line.
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Micol Sys Also, because of source code compatibility between the IIe/c
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version and
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Micol Sys the GS version, you can write one program, which when compiled
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under each
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Micol Sys version, produces a ProDOS 8 program for the IIe and a GS/OS
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program for GS,
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Micol Sys so they can hit the entire Apple II market at once.
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Micol Sys You'll also fine Mike Yost's Ballistics program (good game) here
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on AO,
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Micol Sys which was written using MAB, and I've seen a few adventure
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programs written
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Micol Sys with MAB. Alot of specific purpse stuff (like data aquisition
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software(
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Micol Sys has been written using MAB.
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AFL Scott Great, {S Thanks} Done.
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Micol Sys As far as advantages over other GS BASIC compilers...
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Micol Sys there are many, such as the speed...
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BillP a:)
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Micol Sys the flexibility...
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Micol Sys and especially, the support. You don't see them here, do you?
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Micol Sys GA
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AFL Scott Nope!:)
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AFL Scott Thanks, Ron!:)
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AFL Dyfet I gather that the IIgs version uses the same core graphics
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commands as the 8
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AFL Dyfet bit version. Is there full support for the toolbox in the IIgs
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version?
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Micol Sys Yes and Yes...
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AFL Dyfet Best of both worlds then :)
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Micol Sys both use HPLOT, for instance, to draw lines...
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Micol Sys there may be some changes needed due to the different resolutions
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of the
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Micol Sys screens, and the lack of the toolbox on the IIe to do some
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graphics functions.
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Micol Sys The GS version has full Toolbox support two ways:
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Micol Sys 1) With built in commands like WINDOW, MOUSE and MENU, which
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access tools for
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Micol Sys you...
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Micol Sys and 2) Through a generic TOOLBOX command, which allows you to
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access ANY tool
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Micol Sys you like, so if there's any toolbox out there (such as custom
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tools),
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Micol Sys you can call it yourself... and if Apple introduces new toolboxes,
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you can
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AFL Scott !
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Micol Sys call them manually, too. I believe AC/BASIC lacks such a feature,
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locking you
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Micol Sys into the toolbox calls which they support. GA
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BillP Hi Joey {S applause }
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A GibberFC Joe {S Excellent}
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA Scott...
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JSchober [ :), hi all, {S Thanks!} ]
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AFL Scott Ron, mention that you can enhance readability of programs that use
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the toolbox
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AFL Scott by defining variables for tool calls that you use. I think it
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would help
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AFL Scott people understand just how the toolbox is supported. Thanks,
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Done!:)
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Micol Sys Ok...
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Micol Sys with the generic TOOLBOX command...
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Micol Sys you call it using this format TOOLBOX
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(Toolboxnumber,Toolnumber....)
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Micol Sys you can customize it by using variable names
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Micol Sys such as:
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Micol Sys TOOLBOX (Quick_Draw%, Fill_Rectangle%: Rectangle_Number%)
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Micol Sys which makes your toolbox calls very readable.
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Micol Sys Really, this is a technical issue which would take a bit longer to
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explain,
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Micol Sys so I'll just say that basically (pun, pun) Micol Advanced BASIC
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programs
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Micol Sys are far more easy to read and understand than your average BASIC
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programs.
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Micol Sys which makes it easier to debug, and modify at a later date. GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I believe Tamira is next...GA Tams...
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Tamira 2 ques really.....How well does it work on the IIc and will the
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support be as
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Tamira good for the IIc as for the IIe and GS
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Micol Sys the answer to both those questions is:
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Micol Sys {S EXCELLENT}
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Micol Sys ;)
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Tamira I am planning to expand my IIc and this seems like a beneficiall
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piece of soft
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JSchober (omigosh!)
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Tamira ware I was wondering if it is as good as it sounds
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Tamira GA SORRY
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Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC is even better than it sounds ;)
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Tamira :(
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Micol Sys on the IIc...
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Micol Sys you get to use lots of features that Applesoft never allowed you
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to.
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RMY I agree, better!!
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Micol Sys Remember, Applesoft is now over 11 years old, and was never
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designed for
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Micol Sys today's Apple II, and does not contain any features standard in a
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modern
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Micol Sys programming language. One BIG benefit of the MAB over Applesoft
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is that
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Micol Sys you get a integrated full screen editor, like a word processor,
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and when
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Micol Sys MAB encounters an error in your program, it returns you to the
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editor, with
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Micol Sys the cursor over the place in file where the error occured. Plus,
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it lets
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Micol Sys you write programs twice as large and many times faster than
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Applesoft on
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Micol Sys the IIc.
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Micol Sys The support for both machines is equal. Believe it or not, the
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IIe/c product
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A2GS BRB
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Micol Sys is actually NEWER than the GS product. We thought MAB GS was so
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good, we
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Micol Sys said, heck! why not make a IIe/c version... and so we took MABGS
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and
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Micol Sys converted it to work on the IIe/c. It's a new product, and you
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can count
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Micol Sys on our support. GA
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AFL Dyfet How efficiant a compiler is MAB on the IIe or IIc? Some basic
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compilers are
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Tamira when will it be available???
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AFL Dyfet notorious for the size of their runtime and code they genorate :)
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?
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Micol Sys It is available NOW
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Micol Sys Code generation is VERY efficient...
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Tamira great!!!! sorry that's all
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Micol Sys Micol systems believes in the highest levels of efficiency
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possible... that's
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Micol Sys why MAB was written ENTIRELY in assembly, on a IIgs. Not ported
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from another
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Micol Sys computer as many compilers often are.
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Micol Sys GA
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Coach101 Is there support in MAB for subroutines written in other languages
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and
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Coach101 compiled/assembled independant of MAB?
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Micol Sys GA?
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AFL Dyfet I think so, Ron...
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Micol Sys Yes...
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Micol Sys MAB allows you to link in machine language programs/routines...
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Micol Sys with a few conditions:
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Micol Sys on the IIe version, the code must be in a special format (so it
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can be
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Micol Sys relocated), although you can BLOAD any routine and CALL it to get
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around that.
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Micol Sys on the GS, the code must use our special FASTLOAD file format to
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be linked in..
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Micol Sys currently, our own assembler (which we offer to MAB owners at a
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reduced price)
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Micol Sys is the only one which will currently generate these files, but we
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have
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Micol Sys supplied the file format to Glen Bredon, so he can implement it in
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Merlin 16.'
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Micol Sys GA
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Coach101 Is there any plans for an OMF to FastLoad converter?
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Micol Sys Not really... our devlepment resources are currently tied up with
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other
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Micol Sys projects, and such a converter would be somewhat difficult. GA
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Coach101 Thank you, done. GA
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AFL Dyfet On the IIe/c version, is the relocatable format the same as Apple
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EDASM 'REL',
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AFL Dyfet or something entirely different?
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Micol Sys Something entirely different... simpler... we just ask that
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you...
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Micol Sys put your actual machine language program at the top, followed by
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$00 00,
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Micol Sys followed by your data. The linker handles relocating your program
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for you,
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Micol Sys and leaves the data alone.
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Micol Sys GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, GA A2...
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A2GS I hope Ron won't mind if I break away from this all important
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topic....
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A2GS ...Micol Basic....
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Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC
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Micol Sys we have an older 8 bit product called Micol BASIC, and I don't
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want to confuse
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Micol Sys anybody
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A2GS Excuse Me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MICOL ADVANCED
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BASIC!!!!!!!!!!
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A2GS :)
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Micol Sys into thinking that the old product (Micol BASIC) offers all these
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neat features
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AFL Dyfet What is your question, A2?
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A2GS I have 3 short technical questions which I hope somebody may be
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able to answer.
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Micol Sys Let's hear 'em
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Micol Sys but make it quick... some people are paying for this, and want MAB
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info
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A2GS 1) I assembled a program with Merlin 16+ running on a 5.0 based
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disk...
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A2GS but the program won't work when I try running it from a 4.0 sys.
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disk...Why??
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A2GS Anyone?
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AFL Dyfet Lots of possible reasons, depending on what tools you are using
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and what it
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AFL Dyfet does...
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RMY Did you use any 5.0-specific tool calls, or did the Merlin library
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use any?
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A2GS Does not use any tools....
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Micol Sys That's a pretty large question
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AFL Dyfet Yes, it is, and could probably best be answered in one of the
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message base
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AFL Dyfet areas...
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AFL Dyfet What were #2 and 3, A2?
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A2GS #2
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A2GS ...
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A2GS Never mind 2....
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A2GS onto 3....What is a Dot File??
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AFL Dyfet What do you mean by dot file?
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A2GS Supposedly the New Orca assembler has Dot File Support...What the
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heck is that?
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A2GS Anyone? No one?
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Coach101 I have no idea what they are talking about
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AFL Dyfet I think I do...
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AFL Scott Nor do I
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Micol Sys Sounds like a question for the Byteworks area in Industry
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Connection. Next!'
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A2GS I'm done....Sorry for the interruption Ron...I didn't think the
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Q's were that
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A2GS long.
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AFL TimB Does Micol plan a booth at Applefest (sorry if this has already
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been answered).
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AFL Dyfet Perhaps he means support for 'device' names, such as .d1/, in
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paths, which,
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AFL Dyfet under the old ProDOS scheme, were illegal...
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Micol Sys Well, Tim...
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AFL Scott {S Brb|
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AFL TimB Yes, Ron...
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Micol Sys at this time, No. That's because we've had some disagreements in
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the past
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Micol Sys when we've attended Applefest... Namely, having our booth, which
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was
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A2GS Could be, but that's a weird name for it....never heard the term
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used before.
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Micol Sys right beside Apple, moved on us, because APDA decided at the last
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minute it
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Micol Sys wanted to go, and it wanted a booth beside Apple... so Cambridge
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gave them
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Micol Sys ours. Also, our blimp got put through the trash compactor, which
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is a long
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Micol Sys story which I'll be glad to tell after the conference.
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AFL TimB I feel that your presence, along with some other developers, at
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Applefest....
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Micol Sys We still might go, however.
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AFL Dyfet Neither have I, A2...I am sorry to hear about your past
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difficulties with
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AFL TimB is important to the Apple II's future.
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AFL TimB /done
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AFL Dyfet Cambridge, Ron...and hope you do change your mind too...
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Tamira !
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RMY Agree... Ron should go!
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AFL TimB We'll keep you entertained Ron. ;)
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AFL Dyfet GA Tams...
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Micol Sys True, AFL, but we have conflicts with CMI which are not just going
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to disappear
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Tamira I just wanted to say that I heard that A Fest in NJ
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Micol Sys becuase it would be better for the Apple II community... I agree
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it would be
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Tamira is going to be more just computer fest cause Apple does not
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consider it a
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Micol Sys better if we were there, but sometimes we must make decisions like
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this.
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Tamira national show just regional
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AFL TimB Agreed Ron. :)
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DangardAce {S Boing}
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Micol Sys GA
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Tamira and is not planning to go
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DangardAce {S Goahead}
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Tamira ga
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SkySinger Can you tell me where I can get complete descriptions of both
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versions of MAB?
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Micol Sys Sure can... in two places...
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Micol Sys 1) If you go into Let's Discuss in Apple II Developer's Forum, and
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enter the
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Micol Sys Programming Environments topic, you'll find a folder called Micol
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Advanced
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Micol Sys BASIC. The first 10 messages in the folder give plenty of
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description, and
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Micol Sys the next 40 messages are questions and answers.
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Micol Sys Also, if you go into the Software Libraries in Apple II
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Developer's Forum,
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Micol Sys and select the "Applications" library, you'll find a demo disk for
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Micol
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Micol Sys Advanced BASIC GS which you can download which gives you lots of
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info and
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Micol Sys shows what MAB can do. GA
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SkySinger Thanks, I'll check it out. GA
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RMY Demo disk is awesome!!
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Tamira what about demo for IIc
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Micol Sys Especially the DeskTop part, Mike ;)
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Micol Sys No demo for the IIc, sorry...
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AFA Gary J If I ordered MAB for my IIGS, would I get a program that would
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let me produce
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Tamira :(
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Micol Sys becuase the GS demo makes extensive use of the Tools
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AFA Gary J code for the IIe/IIc as WELL as the IIGS, or would I have to
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purchase a
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AFA Gary J separate compiler for the IIe/IIc machines?
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Micol Sys They are seperate products, Gary...
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Micol Sys MAB GS runs under GS/OS and produces full blown 16 bit GS/OS
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apps.
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Micol Sys MAB-e/c runs under ProDOS 8 and produces 65C02 code meant to run
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under ProDOS 8
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Micol Sys however, we do offer a nice discount to people who want both.
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Micol Sys GA
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AFA Gary J Thanks!
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Go ahead Sky...
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SkySinger I take it that MAB IIe could be used on a GS and that the finished
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code would
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SkySinger run on a GS, a IIe or a IIc?
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Micol Sys Absolutely correct. GA
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SkySinger Thanks GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more Micol Advanced Basic questions
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tonight?
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AFA Gary J What's the list price of the products?
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Micol Sys Ok....
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Tamira yes where can I get it???
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Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC GS sells for $145 list...
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Micol Sys Micol Advanced BASIC IIe/c sells for $89.95, which we feel is and
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exceptional
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Micol Sys value.
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Micol Sys You can order directly from us here on AO...
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Micol Sys by sending mail to MICOL SYS with your VISA/MC #, your address,
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and which
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Micol Sys products you would like. As a special deal for
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Micol Sys everybody here tonight, you can get both products
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Micol Sys for $199.95.
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Tamira savings of $35
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Micol Sys GA
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AFL Dyfet With shipping?? :)
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Micol Sys Shipping is $5 extra... sorry
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Tamira maybe if you are nice he will GIVE you one David :)
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Micol Sys but since I forget, we'll pay shipping
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Micol Sys so $199.95 flat
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RMY US$?
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Micol Sys of course, Mike
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