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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, May 22, 1990  10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic:  Publishing Software
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)


AFL Dyfet  Okay, I guess we are are ready to get started...Welcome to the
           Apple II
AFL Dyfet  Development Forum.  Tonight our topic is publishing software.  We
           will be using
AFL Dyfet  protocol as needed :)...The floor is now open for discussion
           :)...
AFL Dyfet  Incidently, who here tonight has already had software published?
AFL Dyfet  (or published on their own)
WinkieJim  <---me
SPW        published by a commercial company?
AFA Gary J <-me
Nuzz       <Me too>
Windrider5 <-- me
Airship    <====
Dave Lyons <-- Me (P8CDA, Roger Wagner)
AFL Dyfet  Well, Dave, you can include a few other things, I am sure :)
Dave Lyons <-- Shareware, too.
IPatrickI  <-- No published software.  (But working on something...)
Orcas      Dyfet: all these guys have bulges under their overcoats; where
           does the
Orcas      classic 'guy with an idea' go?
AFL Dyfet  That is a very good question, Orcas....
AFA Parik  what kind of idea? (word processor, ?)
Orcas      Tax software here.
AFA Parik  if anyone knows a good publisher for AII games, email Brian
           Greenstone.  he
AFA Parik  can't find a publisher for his newest game.  :(
SPW        :::ducking:::--do companies WANT to publish Apple ][ software
           anymore?
Nuzz       I can speak for Triad, we are looking for unique software to
           publish
IPatrickI  I'm curious.  Do people pay for shareware?  (I mean do they mail
           the check?)
Tamira      I do
WinkieJim  Patrick...some do...most don't
SPW        make it delete itself in a week....
WinkieJim  SPW, they could just D/L it again and make multiple copies....
WinkieJim  (yes...i've thought of that :) :)
AFL Dyfet  Since so many here have, I am not sure who to focus on tonight
           :)...Let's start
AFL Dyfet  with shareware...for our shareware people here, how successful has
           this been
AFL Dyfet  for you?
Airship    1 - 5% seems typical. At least for my stuff.
Airship    <=- 21 returns for Tonight's Sky GS from 2 national networks and 2
           SW publisher
DL Davies  About 5% do, otherwise Todd Wood and I would be very wealthy
WinkieJim  <---about 12 people have paid for my Super Info NDA... my biggest
           seller :(
AFA Parik  greenstone has made $2400 so far on his games.  incentive ;)
IPatrickI  How long did he work on them?
AFA Gary J 24 hours :)
DL Davies  hehe
AFA Parik  [his shareware games.  varied times Patrick.  4-6 games. Xenocide
           made more]
WinkieJim  Well he claims some of them as 24-hour games....
DL Davies  Todd and I made about $500-$600 off all our card games
AFL Dyfet  I actually topped the $500 mark on FunKEYS last week...DL, how has
           your
AFL Dyfet  shareware done?
Tamira     in how long, David??   2 yrs??
AFL Dyfet  Yes, Tamira, in about 1 or so yrs...:)
Tamira     :>....never get rich that way  :>
Dave Lyons I'm here--
Dave Lyons sorry.  My three products
Dave Lyons (Nifty List, Davex, and DIcEd) have sold on the order of 150
           copies each
Dave Lyons over the last couple years (er...total, not per year).  I bet if
           I'd
Dave Lyons actually managed to release updates in a long period where I
           didn't, it'd be a bit better.
Dave Lyons To answer a prev. question, Yes, some people definitely do send
Dave Lyons in their shareware fees, but not
Dave Lyons everybody.  Don't have too much idea how many cheaters are out
           there, but I'm pretty sure they
Dave Lyons at least outnumber the honest folks.
Tamira     by 10 to 1
SPW        there needs to be a way to make people pay for shareware- like
           automatic
SPW        deletion or something
AFA Parik  i like floyd zinks method
AFA Gary J I like Floyd's 
AFA Parik  :)
AFA Gary J Yes... Parik :)
Orcas      What's Zink's method?
Airship    Which is????
AFA Gary J Floyd has an "annoying window" that
AFA Gary J pops up many times throughout the program.
AFA Gary J If you send in the shareware fee, he'll give you the password
           to
AFA Gary J decrypt a version WITHOUT the "annoying window" :)
AFA Gary J (Or, he'll send you a disk with the current version :)
SPW        you can always dissassemble it and remove the window...
AFA Parik  people w/ knowledge to disassemble usually don't cheat.
Dave Lyons (Yes, but most people won't or don't know how, SPW.)
AFL Dyfet  Floyd's method is actually one I've seen used a lot in some form
           recently.
AFL Dyfet  The usual method is to simply send a 'non-annoying' copy to
           registered users.
SPW        or only send em' a demo version
AFA Gary J Demo versions don't always tell the whole story, though.
WinkieJim  I tried Demo ware for my Pyramid GS game...might have to reduce
           the money a
WinkieJim  bit to sell it better....
AFL Dyfet  I have always felt there is some resistance to
           'demo/shareware'...
SPW        true
Airship    I'm about to release V3.0 of my TSGS program...I was considering
           some kind of
Airship    limitaions in the release version...
Airship    In my case the software needs the date, I was considering just
           limiting it to
Airship    1990 dates.
Airship    All other features woukd work fine.
Tamira     got Paint demo for the Mac....and wish they had sent SOME
           documentation with it.....some things are the
Tamira     same as on the II but a lot is different....that's why I hate
           demos
Orcas      Anybody startup themselves?  I've got a shell company, but no idea
           of startup $
Nuzz       Orcas, the $ required really depends on your advertizing budget,
           and how deep 
Nuzz       you want to take it.
Orcas      Nuz, anybody: any good marketing studies?  Who's got the best data
           base
Orcas      of databases, so to speak. Sorr for walking on you, Dyfet.
AFL Dyfet  In regards to Orcas question, I started HyperDyne Software on
           about $10000 and
AFL Dyfet  initial sales money from Command.COM...I ended up being very
           conservative with
AFL Dyfet  advertising (some said stingy :), and ended up doing consulting
           instead :).
WinkieJim  <---Started LazarWare (unofficial name only use it privatly) with
           no cash...
WinkieJim  ...of couse I'm getting no cash return :) :) :)
Orcas      That's good info, Dyfet.  Thanks.
AFL Dyfet  That's okay, Orcas...we (HyperDyne) did try to activily sell a
           product line at
AFL Dyfet  one point, including Bbasic // (which will soon be available
           shareware), as
AFL Dyfet  well as some Command.COM add-on products...the effort did pretty
           much pay for
AFL Dyfet  itself, and saw enough profit at it's peek to keep me fed and
           housed for about
AFL Dyfet  a year :).
AFA Gary J That's encouraging :)
WinkieJim  Alas, the Apple II market has changed...
BCS Frank  How so?
Orcas      OK; $10,000 startup, a good product, and decent marketing, any
           quibble with 
Orcas      this summary?
IPatrickI  (Not here)
AFA Parik  tech support, 1-800 lines, advertising (lots of $$), trade
           shows...
AFA Gary J ...an AO location in Industry Connection..
AFA Gary J :)
BCS Frank   ... cover of Byte...
Orcas      Parik: yeah, that would be nice, but....  :)
Tamira     LOL...going for your lungs??????
AFL Dyfet  That may work for an individual, or one/two man operation, at
           best, I suspect
AFL Dyfet  :)...I recently have done very well in consulting...much better
           than when we
AFL Dyfet  were in publishing :)
AFL Dyfet  Who here has had recent experiance with 'larger' publishing groups
           (as in last
AFL Dyfet  6-12 months)?
AFA Parik  better meet deadlines or you're going through a meat-grinder. :)
WinkieJim  Parik, don't say things like that...I'vegot a deadline at the end
           of May!@ :)
Orcas      Anybody know how these church-management and recipe people and all
           that fringe
Orcas      crowd do?
AFL Dyfet  Deadlines :), I recall those well :)...As to niche markets, like
           church-
AFL Dyfet  management, there is a need for such software, and often the niche
           markets
AFL Dyfet  are large enough to support a few small companies well...
Orcas      My sentiments, too, Dyfet; better to sell wiper blades than the
           whole car..:)
AFL Dyfet  I'm in a niche market of sorts right now...industrial
           automation...Ink Jet/
AFL Dyfet  Magnetics specifically, for Rand McNally...
Orcas      Dyfet: Consultant basis?
AFL Dyfet  Yes, basically, Orcas...we supply firmware/micro-controllers for
           encoding
AFL Dyfet  lines :).
Orcas      So, ought the 'guy with an idea' approach the large houses?  If
           so, how?
AFL Dyfet  As to approaching larger houses, often they are looking for
           complete, or nearly
AFL Dyfet  complete products.  Furthermore, they often have exclusive
           arrangements, hence
AFL Dyfet  I wouldn't suggest approaching Beagle with a communications
           program, since they
AFL Dyfet  already have Point-to-Point, for example :).
Orcas      Some wuld say that's a good reason TO approach them with one, but
           that's
Orcas      another topic.  Is there a good guide to the specialties of the
           bigger houses?
AFL Dyfet  Orcas, it's more than likely that Beagle, for example, has a
           contract with
AFL Dyfet  Gary that says Beagle will not sell another competing product
           while they are
AFL Dyfet  selling his...this is often how these things work...
Matt DTS   (That's not real likely, since Beagle also sells Timeout Telecom,
           BTW.)
Orcas      Understood, Dyfett; I was just reacting to my PTP experience early
           on.  :)
AFL Dyfet  Matt, not all contracts are exclusive, true, but all of the ones I
           have seen
AFL Dyfet  have been...Also, Timeout Telecomm is an Appleworks add-on, is it
           not?  Perhaps
AFL Dyfet  different enough, but selling ProTerm would not be :)
Orcas      Right; Telecomm is not direct competition for PTP.
Orcas      Seriously though, is there a good guide to the specialties, who's
           looking for
Orcas      what?
Coach101   Orcas has a very good question...  Does anyone have enough
           information/experience to reply?
Orcas      Repeating: anybody know who's got a good guide to what software
           houses are
Orcas      looking for what?
AFL Dyfet  We are using PROTOCOL starting NOW *crack*...the floor is now
           being opened for
AFL Dyfet  replies to Orca's question!
AFL Dyfet  GA Parik, you have the floor now...
AFA Parik  pick up GS buyers guide.  includes almost all GS publishers.  call
           each one. ga
Nuzz       There is no "Official" guide, Orcas. I think the best bet is look
           through the
Nuzz       mags, and see what kind of software the houses are already
           oFFering
AFL Dyfet  Well, Apple has, in the past, provided such information to
           registered
AFL Dyfet  developers along with marketing information, lists of magazines
           and what
AFL Dyfet  markets they cover, lists of users groups, etc.
Nuzz       Apple's list is somewhat dated.
Orcas      <---Done; good answers; thanks all.
AFL Dyfet  As Nuzz pointed out, Apple's list is currently outdated, but at
           the time I
AFL Dyfet  was using it, it was VERY helpful.
BCS Frank  Sounds like a niche for a "Writer's Market" type publication.
Coach101   :)
Orcas      Good idea Frank:  any regional software--farming=midwest, etc?
Nuzz       Unfortunatly, there isn't enough software houses for a Writer
           Market type thing
BCS Frank  ... a very thin book.  :)
Nuzz       System 5.0 killed my book idea "101 things to do while your GS
           loads"
AFL Dyfet  :)...now there's only time for one or 2, Nuzz :)
AFA Gary J :)
HyperRam   It still takes 2 minutes to load.
BCS Frank  Nuzz, retitle ... while my HD backs up.
Coach101   But with ProSel backups, your reading is constantly interrupted to
           change diskettes]
AFL Dyfet  Any further comments or new questions out there for tonight?
A2GS       I got a programming Q, I hope no one minds if I ask it  :)
A2GS       I ran SoundSmith which plays Sinthesized Music and while it was
           playing a tune
A2GS       I went into the Control Panel, But instead of the Music stopping
           (eventually)
A2GS       the system continued to produce synthesized music even though I
           was in the CP!!
AFA Gary J A2GS:  See Parik's new CDA in AUT
AFA Gary J (BackGround Music)
A2GS       Why??  I could only come up with one answer...anyone have
           suggetsions on
A2GS       how it works?
AFA Parik  (hold on a sec a2gs)
A2GS       Gary, which CDA is it?
AFA Gary J Background Music
AFA Gary J (Plays SoundSmith, etc. songs in the background while you do
           other stuff)
A2GS       Thank you.
WinkieJim  When you send a digitized sound file to the Sound tools to start
           playing...
WinkieJim  it does just that...plays it till it ends...the CPu doesn't care
           if it's playin
WinkieJim  or not...the sound chip takes care of it...
AFA Parik  (ok, i've written my own soundsmith routines [and soundsmith
           toolset coming
AFA Parik  rsn :)].  Soundsmith uses gen #15 as interrupt-mode, so it runs in
           interrupt
AFA Parik  mode)
A2GS       I know that....But when you go to the CP interrupts are shutoff by
           the IM.
AFA Parik  no!
A2GS       No??  Interrupts are not shutoff?
A2GS       The CP restores interrupts?
Matt DTS   If the Control Panel shut down interrupts, AppleTalk and other
           things would die.
SPW        why can't the GS play music while the disk is running. The AMiga
           can.....
Matt DTS   CP has no reason to disable interrupts so it doesn't, like all
           cool programs.  :)
A2GS       Oh....that answers my Q...Thanx Parik, Matt.
AFA Gary J It can, SPW
SPW        how?
A2GS       SPW...it can!!
AFA Gary J Try Parik's CDA :)
HyperRam   Why does the mouse slow down too? :)
A2GS       When during Disk Access??,Hyp
HyperRam   With 3.5's.
HyperRam   Mouse or sound never slows down with a HD but with
           3.5s..sllllooowwww..
SPW        I have only seen it done once- on Tomahawk
WinkieJim  SPw, it has to do with the fact that 3.5 and 5.25 reads and writes
           are 
WinkieJim  sensitive to timing....
WinkieJim  any interrupts durring them would screw timeing up...
WinkieJim  HD's work ok though.
A2GS       Because when the system does Disk Access's the system constantly
           turns on and
A2GS       off interrupts and since the mouse cursor is drawn based on
           interrupt
A2GS       occurances...it is only drawn when an interrupt occurs and
           interrupts are 
A2GS       active at the same time.
SPW        so you have to write music compatable with the disk timing?
SPW        or disk timing compatable with the music?
A2GS       Nope.
WinkieJim  SPW, I ran into that prob with a program I wrote./..started a
           sound and the 
WinkieJim  went to load toolsets....on my HD it worked great...when i tested
           on 3.5 
WinkieJim  it wsn;t so good...
HyperRam   I noticed my friends ST's mouse never slowed down with 3.5 access.
           :)
A2GS       SPW, the drive can be going and a sound playing at the same time,
           with 
A2GS       interrupts active or non-active, makes no difference.
SPW        anyone here program anything besides an Apple?
AFA Gary J yes
SPW        what?
Coach101   yes
BCS Frank  PDP-8.  :)
AFA Parik  what is there besides an apple?
IPatrickI  IBM
SPW        basic? assembly?
AFL Dyfet  I prefer C myself :)
AFA Gary J IBM and TI mini
Coach101   VME systems, VAX systems, large (non-IBM) mainframes
IPatrickI  Pascal, (Learning C)
IPatrickI  IBM (4341 VM/cms) Mainframe (Cobol)
SPW        hmm...it seems as if all of you have computer jobs. Am I right?
IPatrickI  <-- Lab Assistant.
BCS Frank  kind of... CNC machinist.
AFA Gary J yes, computer job
SPW        hmmm...I think I'm a little out-aged....
Orcas      SPW: age doesn't matter!  Look at that kid Bill Gates!   :)
SPW        anyone seen the new Apple ][gs buyers guide?
AFA Parik  gah, the new BG is sooo thin!  pitiful.  :(
SPW        Apple will support the ][ but how about software and hardware
           companies?
Nuzz       But who's going to support the software companies, that's the
           question
SPW        true Nuzz- too many pirates in the Apple ][ world
Coach101   Too many pirates -- Effect is just more noticeable in a smaller
           marketplace
AFA Gary J SPW, too many pirates in ANY computer world.
Coach101   RIGHT!!!!
Nuzz       Agreed Coach
AFA Gary J (not limited to Apple's, by any means)
AFL Dyfet  That is very true, Coach and Gary!
BCS Frank  Even the non-computer world, whereever that is.
Coach101   As we all take our righteous stands on piracy, have you ever taped
           a record/cd for a friend?
A GibberFC Yeah... It is a moral Issue....
Orcas      Right, Gary: I get more offers of stuff for my IBM than my
           Apple.
WinkieJim  But it hurts the Apple II market more, because of the decreass in
           the people
WinkieJim  buying new software...
A GibberFC Frankly... People have to change their attitudes... Piracy is on
           par with Copying Movies
SPW        Cd's and tapes can't be copied thousands of times from one
           source
Nuzz       I have a shareware question. Are we going to see a New Nifty
           List?
AFA Gary J Yeah, good question, Nuzz. :)
Nuzz       < Putting someone on the spot>
AFA Gary J (nudging Dave Lyons...)
Coach101   Lets all lobby Matt to give Dave time off (without pay of course)
           to get a new copy out :)
AFL Dyfet  I know Dave is ALWAYS working on a new version when he gets a
           chance :)
Dave Lyons (Oops...pay attention, me.)
Orcas      Time off better be WITH pay, or I can help get him a better deal. 
           :)
Dave Lyons I have 2.92 ready to ship...I really need to have
Dave Lyons somebody single-click me and hit Duplicate a few times, and then
           I'd ask
Dave Lyons "Copy of Dave" to duplicate disks and "Copy of Copy of Dave" to
           stuff envelopes....
Dave Lyons I'll go ahead and upload it here, considering it's already about
           to appear on GEnie anyway.
AFA Gary J Yes, just upload it, Dave!
AFL Dyfet  Okay, do we have any more comments/questions for tonight's offical
           topic?
Orcas      A thousand, Dyfet, but I'd better quit askin' and start sellin'. 
           Thanks!!!
AFL Dyfet  What kind of project are you working on, Orcas?
Orcas      Tax templates (coupla State income tax forms), an A'works
           indexer...but some-
Orcas      body beat me to market on the latter.   :(
AFL Dyfet  There are a couple of people doing A'works templates/databases out
           there...
Orcas      Apparently my stuff finds people: I wrote the PD AppleWorks
           footnoting macros.
Orcas      Yeah, I've been corresponding with the fella in New York that does
           the tax
Orcas      stuff, and another in California.  Good people, good products.