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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, July 10, 1990  10:00 p.m. eastern time
Topic:  Marketing Your Software
Forum Leader:  Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)

Dave Lyons I've got a good start on 1/2 of Big Brother...routines that
           allocate
Dave Lyons all your free memory & let you checksum it to see if anything got
           stomped on by accident.  I just
Dave Lyons found the bug in my routines that was stomping on stuff by
           accident. :-(
AFA Gary J So, the program to check if you're stomping is doing the
           stomping? :)
Dave Lyons Gary, Yup...sort of like inventing a Band-Aid with cyanide on it,
           I guess.
Dave Lyons (It was a bank-cross bug with the handle I'm using to keep track
           of all the areas to check, and I
Dave Lyons didn't find it right away because my machine at home has only 1.25
           megs, few enough banks that
Dave Lyons the problem almost never shows up.  On a 5 megger, though, it's a
           mess.)
SPW        Anyone know how to scroll fast, from the bottom up on the ][gs?
Dave Lyons SPW, in super-hires, or what?
SPW        yes
AFA Gary J Do you just want to scroll text displayed on the SHR screen, or
           all graphics?
Dave Lyons How fast is fast?  Probably the best way is to know enough about
           the image on there that you can
Dave Lyons actually *avoid* copying parts of the data that don't matter
           (avoid scrolling solid background,
SPW        it is text and graphics
Dave Lyons for example).
AFA Gary J Ok, let's get started.
AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum.  Tonight's topic
           is...
AFA Gary J Marketing your Software.  We'll be using Forum Protocol starting
           NOW, 
AFA Gary J so if you have a question, type a "?" on a line by itself, or if
           you have a
AFA Gary J comment on the current topic, please type a "!" on a line by
           itself.  I'll
AFA Gary J keep track of who's up next (who's on first :) and will call on
           you in turn.
AFA Gary J First, I'd like to ask, are there any here who have successfully
           marketed 
AFA Gary J software?
AFA Gary J Nobody? :)
Nuzz       I have 
BOBWOB     I sold software to a company ..a few times..
A2Evanglst afk
AFA Parik  true
AFA Gary J Ok, let's let VICTORYSFT ask his question, GA, VICTORYSFT
VICTORYSFT Oh, I was just going to ask what you meant by sucessfully market
           software.
AFA Gary J What we mean by successfully marketing software is developing a
           software
AFA Gary J product that has successfully gone to market (and sold :)
AFA Gary J Ok, Bob, you have the floor next.  GA, Bob
BOBWOB     Is it possible to be profitable going the shareware? $$
AFA Gary J It depends on how you define profitable, Bob..  GA, Coach :)
Coach101   Profitability means income exceeds expenses....
Coach101   ShareWare is a risky proposition.  You will see a whole lot more
           downloads than you ever see
Coach101   checks in the mail.  Some of this people who tried it and did not
           like it, some will be people that
Coach101   collect everything and use nothing, some will just not pay for
           shareware.
Coach101   I do not think you will ever support yourself from a shareware
           product but it is way to get a little
Coach101   income and establish a reputation.  But, be ready for your blood
           pressure to rise when you count the
Coach101   difference bbetween the downloads and the checks...
Coach101   done
BOBWOB     how much money has anyone made using the shareware method of
           marketing
AFA Gary J VICTORYSFT, did you have a comment for Bob?
VICTORYSFT Yes, I was just going to say that after talking to several authors
           on different
VICTORYSFT machines, all of them agreed that shareware gets next to
           nothing.
VICTORYSFT Even for useful stuff (or fun stuff), the typical gross is less
           than $300.00
AFA Gary J I've heard of takes over $500.
VICTORYSFT Usually Mac
AFA Gary J Anyone else here have any experience with shareware?
AFA JoeyS  Yesssssss...
AFA Gary J Yes, Joey, of course. GA
AFA JoeyS  Soundmaster is currently running...
AFA JoeyS  at over 900 downloads, and with a little over 50 registrations
           (haven't yet
AFA JoeyS  processed all mail from June).  That's one of my =better=
           ShareWare projects in
AFA JoeyS  terms of user response.  Ack.  GA...
BOBWOB     Ok scratch shareware...what is a good way to go?
AFA Gary J GA, Parik
AFA Parik  i dunno but on the IBoughtMuck i've seen companies that only sell
           1 shareware
AFA Parik  piece but have 1-800 lines, tech support, and lots more!  wow! 
           better than
AFA Parik  some commercial vendors.  :)  ga
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons My shareware has sold (er...registered?) moderately well...I have
           well over 100 registerd
Dave Lyons registered users for each of my 3 shareware products.  Not enough
           to live on or anything,
Dave Lyons but good.  ga
AFA Gary J GA, VICTORYSFT
VICTORYSFT Some friends of mine released shareware DA's for Windows on the
           IBM
VICTORYSFT several years ago, and well they have seen almost nothing.
VICTORYSFT From what I've heard, shareware on IBM is not rosier than any
           other machine.
VICTORYSFT GA
AFA Gary J Ok, Bob did you have another question?
BOBWOB     Is ther a chance a big software place will steal from you?
AFA Gary J Yes (There's a chance :)
BOBWOB     how do you p[rotect your self
AFA Gary J You have to be careful on how you setup your agreement with
           them.
AFA Parik  (Guido the killer pirate will come after you)
AFA Gary J Anyone here with direct experience with this that would like to
           comment?
AFA Gary J GA, Mike
Nuzz       You should have THEM sign a Non_Disclosure when submitting
           software for review.
Nuzz       GA
Sutlief    What is a good way of contacting a software vendor about selling
           software, when
Sutlief    the software is ready to be sent to them? (After contacting them
           about their
Sutlief    software submission guidelines.)
AFA Gary J GA, Nuzz 
Nuzz       I found it best to make a personal phone call, followed by
           another, then 
Nuzz       another... It is tough to get the first foot in the door.
Nuzz       And contact more than 1 vendor (mail order I assume) GA
AFA Gary J You should do your homework beforehand, as well, as to WHICH
           vendors to contact
AFA Gary J (i.e. the one's most likely to market a software product that you
           produced)
AFA Gary J (The KIND of product you produced, that is)
Sutlief    I have checked about what companies might be good companies to
           submit the
Sutlief    software to
Nuzz       Sut, are you talking publishers or vendors?
AFA Gary J Sutlief?
Sutlief    I'm talking about the people who actually produce the software.
Sutlief    I mean the ones that have their names on packages.
AFA Gary J I think it's just pretty much what Nuzz said, be persistant once
           you find
AFA Gary J the publishers you wish to contact.
AFA Gary J Ok, let's move on to Michael's question.  Could you re-state your
           question
AFA Gary J for us Michael?
Michael52  What are some pitfalls to look out for if a person were to start
           their own 
Michael52  company to market their own software?
AFA Gary J GA, A2Evanglst
A2Evanglst Being Unknown.... and usually the lack of money to market the
           product
Michael52  Ahh! But how to get known!
AFA Gary J GA, A2
A2Evanglst Spend lots of money... that is the way to get known... Marketing
           your own soft
A2Evanglst ware isn't easy when you look at the rates in the publications
           that you want
A2Evanglst show off in... I belive that a full page in Incider costs around
           6000 bucks..
Michael52  Holy !@#$!
A2Evanglst Can someone back me up on that?
AFA Parik  it can cost up to $10k depending on where it is (inside cover). 
           
AFA Gary J I know it's somewhere around that, A2.  The prices I knew of
           where for A+
AFA Gary J (a few years ago)
DanW190    Ouch!
AFA Parik  (plus artist fees for making the ad.  xenocide ad cost 15k+)
Nuzz       $6000 general full page ad in Incider
DanW190    (faint)
Michael52  So does it pay off usually? Is it a good investment for a good
           piece of software?
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101   Does it pay off is a tough question...
Michael52  Well, I'm not talking about marketing games... ga
Coach101   First, it can not pay off if people do not really want your
           software...
Coach101   That is, if you are trying to reach a market that exists, it may
           pay off....
Coach101   If you are trying to reach a market that does not exist, it will
           never pay off....
Michael52  So then software prices of $100+ are justified?
Coach101   The trick, and its tough, is to guage whether you "feel of the
           public's pulse" is right...
Coach101   That is, did you write something that people want or need....   
           ga
Michael52  I understand. ga
AFA Gary J Very good point, Coach.  Anything else, Michael?
Michael52  No, thank-you.
AFA Gary J Ok, DanW has our next question.. GA Dan
DanW190    OK........   How does one get a copyright on one's (a group's)
           work?  I mean...
DanW190    I hear you can mail the software to yourself..proving you had it
           first...or
DanW190    you can pay the copyright office to do so.. which is the better
           deal?
AFA Gary J GA, Sutlief
Sutlief    I have checked with the copyright offices a while back and the
           lays says that
Sutlief    the software has to be authored by the person that is sending in
           for the
Sutlief    registration or someone that had authorized the author to write
           it.  GA
DanW190    ok...well we've got someone else also writing some code..they're
           gonna use..
DanW190    those routines in their programs too... so would we have a
           "double" copyright..
DanW190    meaning that our work would be (c)'d and his work would also have
           a (c) in it?
DanW190    ga
AFA Gary J Go ahead with your comment, A2Evanglst
A2Evanglst Pay the copyright office.... If the product is worth stealing then
           it is worth
A2Evanglst a proper copyright... as for double copyrights... that is a bit
           tricky...
A2Evanglst You might just have the guy copyright the routines and then
           licence them to you
A2Evanglst via a license agreement
AFA Gary J GA with your comment, Parik
AFA Parik  a mailed copyright is only effective for 5 years, I believe.  When
           you are 
AFA Parik  done with the product, mail in for the copyright.  It costs $20 as
           of last
AFA Parik  week (used to be $10).  
AFA Parik  (mailed copyright = mail to yourself).  ga
AFA JoeyS  (Really, Parik??  grr, grumble -- that's more of my $$ down the
           drain)
AFA Parik  good old George raised the price!  :-) 
DanW190    OK...thanks... and finally....
AFA Gary J What's your other question, Dan?
DanW190    what if the name of your company is somewhat similar to another
           existing...well
DanW190    I mean...what if you don't know if it exists?  (I hear the name
           search is 
DanW190    VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYY expensive and takes
           FOREVER!) ga
AFA Gary J GA, Tap
AFC TAP    I;'d go ahead and register under whatever name you have..
AFC TAP    you can always change your name if you have to...
AFC TAP    name searches are expensive...
AFC TAP    and are not always necessary...
DanW190    other companies won't sue you?
DanW190    (no our name is not apple or ibm) :)
AFC TAP    IF your sued.. then change it, settle out of court
AFC TAP    names are just that.. they have to prove its confusing, not
           you...
AFC TAP    there are thousands of companies.. many hundreds have the same
           name
AFC TAP    and dont really care...
AFC TAP    ga
AFA Gary J GA, Coach
Coach101   I missed what Tap said (knocked off line)...
DanW190    Basically...ga with search.  Companies don't mind of other have
           their name.
Coach101   But, go to you local county courthouse and check the filings for
           fictictious names...
Coach101   If it comes up clean, or if there is a similar name that is not in
           a associated industry, then 
Coach101   register your name....  To do the job properly in California, you
           have to publish the name
Coach101   in a "legal" newspaper and submit certification of publication
           back to the court....
DanW190    (well I'm Illinois; the silicon flatlands) :)
Coach101   If you get big enough that some company on the other coast has a
           problem with your name,
Coach101   then you will proabably be big enough to have an attorney to
           straighten the mess out....
Coach101   ga
AFA Gary J Thanks Coach.  Anything else, Dan?
DanW190    (it's not an Apple name..it _may_ be an Amiga name)      ga who's
           next
DanW190    thanks
Matt DTS   If you're concerned about Apple trademarks, our legal department
           has a list of Apple trademarks
Matt DTS   and their proper usage, as well as guidelines on how to name your
           software not to conflict.  Free for
Matt DTS   the asking at the same place you contact Software Licensing. 
           GA.