mirror-textfiles.com/apple/ADC/adv.900925

America Online
APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, September 25, 1990  10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic:  Alternate Operating Systems
        Tech OS Operating System - Red Team Software
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar  (AFL Dyfet)


QRJ Flash  Got an ORCA Pascal question if anyone is able
AFL Dyfet  Sure, Flash, GA...
QRJ Flash  Thanks Dyfet... how can I get the error code result of a GSOS
           call?
Dave Lyons What language, Flash?
QRJ Flash  ORCA Pascal
AFL Dyfet  Okay, Flash currently has the floor for his ORCA Pascal
           question...we will
AFL Dyfet  begin tonight's event after FLash...
QRJ Flash  I am using ORCA Pascal to read in a screen image and chomp pieces
           of it.
QRJ Flash  I am crashing in the ReadGS call, and suspect I am getting an
           error from the
QRJ Flash  OpenGS call.
QRJ Flash  How can I check for errors after each call?? ToolError doesn't
           catch it.
AFL Scott  Are you using StdFile to get the pathname?
QRJ Flash  no...I am hardcoding the pathname in the file.
QRJ Flash  I'm building graphics resources.
QRJ Flash  I mean hardcoding it in the program. Sorry.
AFL Scott  Is it a GS/OS string or a pascal string?
QRJ Flash  I am attempting to convert it to a GSOSInstring
QRJ Flash  from a pascal string
QRJ Flash  but again... I get no feedback other than a GLORIOUS monitor
           crash.
AFL Scott  Does the file open properly?
QRJ Flash  I don't know! The program continues after the open, but crashes in
           the Read
QRJ Flash  call.
AFL Scott  I don't understand...How do you know it's in the Read call? 
QRJ Flash  I copy the refnum from the open param block to the read param
           block
QRJ Flash  Scott, because I print a string between the two calls that says "I
           made it..."
Dave Lyons Try printing the reference number--if it's 0, the Open failed.
QRJ Flash  OK, thanks Dave.
Dave Lyons (Mmm...you may have to stuff a 0 in the record *before* the open
           for that to be true, actually.)
Dave Lyons A good refnum is definitely nonzero.
QRJ Flash  I take it there is no system function or peek to pick up GSOS
           error codes?
Dave Lyons (I *thought* ToolError worked for ORCA/Pascal OS errors,
           actually--but I don't use that env.)
Dave Lyons The system simply returns GS/OS errors in the accumulator--it's up
           to your languague
Dave Lyons environment to give you a way at that result.
AFL Scott  I did, too Dave... try SystemError and see what happens.
QRJ Flash  OK. Well, thanks for listening! I shall go bang my head against it
           some more :)
QRJ Flash  Take care!
AFA Parik  you can email mikew50 to get info, btw
QRJ Flash  I shall EMail MikeW if I don't get anywhere tonight.
Dave Lyons Scott, what happens?  I don't have ORCA/P handy.
AFL Scott  I don't know...not my program.. one of the errors it can return is
           File not open, though.
AFL Dyfet  Good evening and welcome to the Apple II Development
           Forum....Tonight we will
AFL Dyfet  be discussing alternative operating systems for the Apple II. 
           What products
AFL Dyfet  are there?  Do they work?  how compatible are they?  What
           environments would
AFL Dyfet  one want to see on the II?  These and other questions will be
           covered.  We will
AFL Dyfet  be using protocol starting now.  This means that if you wish to
           ask a question,
AFL Dyfet  you must enter a '?' on a line by itself, and if you wish to make
           a comment on
AFL Dyfet  the current question, you must enter a '!' on a line by itself. 
           You will
AFL Dyfet  each be called to speak in turn....
AFL Dyfet  We do have several guests (Red Team) who are responsible for one
           of these
AFL Dyfet  alternative (non-Apple supplied) operating environments with us
           tonight
AFL Dyfet  (Tech OS).  I will start by giving the floor over to Red Team so
           that he may
AFL Dyfet  introduce himself and us to Tech OS...Red Team (or Rep Rep 2), you
           now have
AFL Dyfet  the floor...
Red Team   Okay... to begin the discussion about Tech OS, Read Rep 2 and I
           will describe
Red Team   the advantages and disadvantages of using our OS.
Red Team   Through using Tech OS,  you will be using a smaller, faster, and
           easiler to
Red Team   use operating system.
Red Team   All of the features are covered in one manual, well documented
           with examples.
Red Team   Red Team, Inc is offering this OS at a low price to appeal to
           programmers
Red Team   of all types of business.
Red Team   To start off, let me describe the compiler included with Tech
           OS.
Red Team   Before that, let me introduce myself...
Red Team   My name is Clinton D. Wong, and I am the main programmer of
           TechOS,
Red Rep 2  my name is Ginger D. Wong, and I will be acting as a consultant
Red Rep 2  to this development chat on OS's
Red Team   Okay, on to the compiler.
Red Team   The compiler used with TechOS has most all the features of today's
           compiler.
Red Team   Any assembler programmer who knows merlin or 65816 will be at home
           with
Red Team   the Tech OS compiler.  Most all commands are similar to that used
           with Merlin,
Red Team   including Ram locations (example:strout), toolbox calls (like
           _FFSoundStart)
Red Team   and of course, the TechOS command set (like: _ReadTechOSvol).
Red Team   The commands are included within the manual, as well as in
           disk-form, for
Red Team   easy recall when the manual isn't handy.
Red Team   As a bonus, this compiler also uses external files to emulate
           other compilers.
Red Team   For instance, if you wanted to port your basic, pascal, or C code
           into Tech OS
Red Team   form, all you have to do is add this to your code:
Red Team   Include: Basic, Pascal, C
Red Team   And when you want to switch from one language to another, you
           would then enter
Red Team   "Mode: Basic" or "Mode: Pascal".
Red Team   Global variables from each language can be used within the other
           languages
Red Team   that you use.
Red Team   Also, you don't sacrifice compatability.  If you were programming
           in basic,
Red Team   you could enter "pushstack $0000" and then another call like
           "_FFSoundStart."
Red Team   Are there any questions so far?
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead Goalie...
Goalie5    If I make a program under Tech OS, can I launch it from the
           finder? (Missed the
Goalie5    first couple of minutes)  :)
Red Team   From GS/OS you would have problems... more about compatability
           later tonight.
Goalie5    is it a completely seperate operating system?
Red Team   Yes, Tech OS is completely seperate from other OS's.  However, to
           shed some
Red Team   light on your question, programs created under ProDOS 8 can easily
           be converted
Red Team   to TechOS form.
Goalie5    How much must we pay for this new OS?
Goalie5    :)
Red Team   At at introductory price, the Tech OS boot code, shell, and
           compiler will be
Red Team   offered at a mere $35, without extra shipping and handling.
Red Team   This price is temporary, so if you're interested, buy sooner and
           it will be
Red Team   cheaper.
Goalie5    Where can we get it from?
Red Team   Ordering information can be reached at:  Clinton D. Wong, PO Box
           433, Gurnee
Red Team   IL, 60031.  You could leave e-mail here in America Online at Red
           Team, 
Red Team   find us on CompuServe at 72047,1005.  Or you could mail us on
           internet at
Red Team   clint@chinet.chi.il.us   or
Red Rep 2  arn@mentor.cc.purdue.edu for Ginger Wong
Red Rep 2  hold on, sorry, I meant arn@sage.cc.purdue.edu for Ginger Wong
AFL Dyfet  Sounds like I could port some Command.COM shell utilities :)...Go
           ahead Parik.
Goalie5    Can you install GS>OS and tech OS on same HD?
AFA Parik  (its ffstartsound :) I don't understand the diff. compilers - if I
           have some
AFA Parik  (ga?)
Red Team   Okay..
Red Team   Let me give you an example...
Red Team   If you had a pascal program like the following:
Red Team   Program so.and.so...;
Red Team   var temp1:integer;
Red Team   begin;
Red Team   end.
Red Team   while later on in the same source code, you could write a program
           like this:
Red Team   in basic, 10 PRINT temp1.
Red Team   Basically what would happen is that the value at temp1 will print
           out.
Red Team   You can program more than one language, and have all of the
           variables linked
Red Team   together with another language,
Red Team   and execure them all at the same time.
AFL Dyfet  So it is a multi-lingual compiler???
AFA Parik  ok, it doesn't actually compile each language type.  ga
Red Team   Yes, it is a multi-lingual compiler.
AFA Parik  whoah, it does pascal, c, basic,assembly?  wow.  done
Red Team   It converts the source code into machine language and any labels
           or variables
Red Team   can be accessed from any language.
AFL Dyfet  Are there any runtime libraries, such as for common C functions?
Red Rep 2  which C are you referring to AFL?
Red Rep 2  just regular C? or Turbo-C?
AFL Dyfet  As in ANSI or K&R library function for printf, etc...
AFL Dyfet  In other words, is there a C lib behind the C language
           compiler...
Red Rep 2  Ok....
Red Rep 2  you mean the C where you have #include's?
Red Team   Yes, there is a C library that you can include.
AFL Dyfet  I really mean the functions you link from the standard C library,
           but yes...
Red Rep 2  oh, the functions, like math.h and so on
AFL Dyfet  Yes...
AFL Dyfet  Yes...
Red Team   Yes, C librarys are supported for those functions.
AFL Dyfet  Okay...Go ahead Dave Lyons...enough on C for now :)...
Dave Lyons 2 questions:  (1) Can your compiled programs read/write ProDOS
           disks?  (2) Does a Tech OS program
Dave Lyons have access to any GS Toolbox functions that
Dave Lyons aren't in ROM, or to any patches Apple releases to the parts that
           are in ROM?
Red Team   To answer the first question, yes, TechOS can read and write to
           ProDOS disks,
Red Team   hard drives, etc.  To answer Goalie's question in it, TechOS can
           exist on
Red Team   your current PrDOS 8 volumes without disturbing the data.
Red Team   Both of them share the bit space bitmap and there aren't any
           problems 
Red Team   with using both.
Dave Lyons So ProDOS *isn't* your native file system?
Red Team   No, ProDOS isn't the native language.  However, since Tech OS and
           ProDOS 8
Red Team   don't use the same memory, you could have ProDOS 8 and TechOS
           loaded and 
Red Team   se both within the same program.  This does not apply to Zaplink
           S16 files,
Red Team   another disadvantage.
Dave Lyons One more thing (maybe I missed this): Is TechOS only for the GS,
           or for other Apple IIs too?
Red Team   TechOS was designed to be the ProDOS 8 of the IIgs... if you
           look
Red Team   at the IIe, you would see that ProDOS 8 is fine... no extras to
           load and
Red Team   worry about.  When Apple Computer, Inc. had the IIgs, they jumped
           to the
Red Team   GS/OS.  As some have complained, it is not extremely fast, though
           it is
Red Team   easy to use.
Red Team   Basically, Tech OS is your ProDOS 8 for the IIgs, smaller, faster,
           easier to
Red Team   use, with IIgs capability.  
Dave Lyons Okay, thanks.  Done.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, A2, you have the floor now...
A2GS       I had a problem last week which produced several solutions...I've
           come up with
A2GS       what I think is the best solution so far and I just want to make
           sure it
A2GS       doesn't have any problems....the original question was, how to get
           more then
A2GS       1 bank of memory and make sure it was bank aligned...
Red Team   To get 1 bank of memory.... from where?  The memory manager?
A2GS       The solution.... Request the # of banks of memory + 1....con'd
A2GS       yes
A2GS       then check if the memory is already bank aligned...is so then
           deallocate the
A2GS       handle and only request the # of banks you actually need (so as
           not to waste 
A2GS       any memory)...if not then add 1 to the bank the mem. manager
           started
A2GS       allocating memory from...then deallocate all the memory you just
           requested and 
A2GS       request the # of banks you actually need, specifying the address
           of where the
A2GS       memory should start...MM bank+1 with a low word address of 0000.
A2GS       done
AFL Dyfet  We are not really fielding memory manager questions tonight A2,
           however, if we
AFL Dyfet  have time after this conf....GA Parik...You have the floor
           now...
A2GS       sorry...I didn't realize this was the wrong day for MM Q's.
AFA Parik  ok, i'm totally lost on TechOS.  It  sounds like a super-program
           for $35??
AFA Parik  Its _NOT_ a C/Basic/Pascal compiler, is it?  ie, it won't take a
           orca/c source
AFA Parik  code file, compile it, and turn it into a program!  likewise for
           TML Pascal II
Red Team   As I've mentioned before, it is only a intro price to get
           programming support
Red Team   by developers.  As more support is given by programmers, the price
           will
Red Team   go up as more people start using it.  The low price is insanely
           low, and
Red Team   almost killing the budget, but it is a great way to get people to
           try it out...
Red Team   The price shouldn't descourage anyone from purchasing it, so Red
           Team made
Red Team   sure that the price was low enough.
AFA Parik  so will it make "main() { printf("hello,world.\n")"; }  "  a
           run-able file?
Red Team   Yes, the compiler will turn it into a runnable file... all the
           global variables
Red Team   that you use will also be accessable to any other language code
           that you
Red Team   use within the same program.
AFA Parik  I didn't ask if variables are global...will it compile C code?  is
           it a C
AFA Parik  compiler?  
Red Team   Yes, it is a C compiler, and also doubles as Pascal, BASIC, and
           65816.
Red Team   More questions?
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead Marty...
AFL Marty  May I have the address again?
Red Team   Sure: USMail: Clinton D. Wong, PO Box 433, Gurnee, IL, 60031.
AFL Marty  (followup too)
Red Team   CIS: 72047,1005, America Online: Red Team, network:
           clint@chinet.chi.il.us
Red Rep 2  Internet: arn@sage.cc.purdue.edu
AFL Marty  Do you have any programs or demos written using TechOS and, if so,
           are
AFL Marty  they available online?
Red Team   As of now, there are no public demos available... please watch for
           them in
Red Team   the following weeks.
AFL Marty  Thanks.  Done.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, do we have any other questions out there for tonights topic
           or TechOS?
Red Team   Feel free to give Red Team a ring for more questions... a topic
           we've run
Red Team   out of time is about the shell and other utilities, but more info
           will be
Red Team   available through mail/net-mail.
Red Rep 2  The address and e-mail addresses will be posted 
Red Rep 2  for further reference
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead Paul...
PaulH54    Thank you.  I recall a teaser earlier about minix.  Is that to be
           ported
PaulH54    to the IIgs platform anytime soon?
AFL Dyfet  I have not myself heard anything about it, but a lot of people
           talk about doing
AFL Dyfet  it :)
PaulH54    thanks
PaulH54    done
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead Scott...
AFL Scott  Has anyone experienced problems with GS/OS on hard disk
           partitions....
AFL Scott  when they are nearing full?  I've got two drives that are slowly
           eating themselves.
AFL Scott  BTW, the problems only show up after I have started
AFL Scott  cleaning them up by deleting files.
AFL Scott  GA, Paul.
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead Paul...
PaulH54    Thank you.  I recall problems with the CMS scsi cards and drives
           eating 
PaulH54    themselves when they got full.  I've not had that problem with
           Apple's
PaulH54    cards.
PaulH54    done
AFL Scott  I've got DMA SCSI from Apple...  And the other Apple SCSI board...
           problem shows up on both 
AFL Scott  controllers... I'm running memory diags, now, to see
AFL Scott  if the problem is in expansion ram.
AFL Scott  Dave, has anyone reported anything like this to Apple that wasn't
           hardware?
AFL Scott  Better yet, have you heard of anyone reporting? :)
Dave Lyons I don't remember anything like that...
AFL Dyfet  Okay, do we have any other Q's for tonight??
AFL Scott  Thanks!:) 
PaulH54    Thanks y'all.
AFA Gary J Interesting conference.