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513 lines
24 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, October 23, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Pascal and C Programming
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Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
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AFA Gary J Ok. I see it's now 10:00 P.M. Eastern time (Mickey's hand is
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straight up)
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AFA Gary J and time to start this evening.
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AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
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Programming in
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AFA Gary J C and Pascal. I see Scott and/or Dale has the first question
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here... (now
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AFA Gary J that we're started officially :)
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DaleK20 Is it true that a week ago APPLE announced discontinuing AppleII
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line
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AFL Marty No Dale.
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AFL Marty That is not the case.
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DaleK20 I heard from someone who has had good info in the past, but I
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recognized some
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DaleK20 of your names, thanks
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Dave Lyons No, there is no announcement of "discontinuing the Apple II."
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There has been at least one
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Dave Lyons somewhat misleading statement (I forget who made it), and I
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believe a clarifying statement is
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Dave Lyons going to come out.
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DangardAce Pruett? He probably got a raise.
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AFL Scott Is AlertWindow supposed to make itself the current GrafPort? If
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so, are there any problems
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AFL Scott using Resources with AlertWindow?
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AFL Scott Ok..... If I use Alertwindow while another window is on the
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desktop, and
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ShanoJ Scott: Why do you need the current port set to the Alert's window?
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It's not as
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ShanoJ if you can draw into it between opening and closing it....
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Dave Lyons Scott, I don't know of any problems with AlertWindow relating to
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grafports or resources. What's
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Dave Lyons happening for you?
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AFL Scott Ok.... I'm getting update events going to the alertwindow. Either
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that or AlertWindow is ignoring
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AFL Scott the null terminator.
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ShanoJ Genesys messes up the null terminator, if that's a
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consideration....
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Dave Lyons Scott, I don't understand--what is "you"? Are you a DA, an
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application, or what? The actual
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Dave Lyons AlertWindow window has just an RTL for a content-draw proc,
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currently.
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AFL Scott We are Nomad... :) Seriously, I think Jonah got it
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AFL Scott I used Genesis to create this particular resource. :(
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AFA Gary J Nomad :) (I remember that episode :)
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Dave Lyons ("The Changeling")
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ShanoJ Ya, go through the Rez source and stick in a \0x00 at the end of
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the rAlertStr.
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AFA Gary J Ok. I guess Scott got his question answered. GA with your
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question, Windrider
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Windrider5 I would like to use the TEGetText call where my bufferd
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Windrider5 descriptor is saying that the bufferRef is a pointer to a buffer
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Windrider5 to recieve a handle to the output text
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Dave Lyons ("refIsNewHandle," yeah)
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Windrider5 how do I indicate this in C i.e. &myTextBlockHandle?
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Dave Lyons Yes.
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ShanoJ (Dave, have you memorised all of those oneWordConstants or do you
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have a list?)
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Dave Lyons (That one I remembered.)
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Windrider5 nothing I done seems to work
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Dave Lyons Windrider, what goes wrong? Does it crash?
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Windrider5 all I get is garbage in my text window ie. inverted ?
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Dave Lyons Check all your parameters carefully to make sure they're the right
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length, especially if you're
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Dave Lyons using APW C. (Does ORCA force everything to be the right size?)
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Windrider5 I'm using APW/C what parameters do you mean? bufferRef?
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Dave Lyons I mean all the parameters to TEGetText--if one of them is, say, a
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word instead of a long, then
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Dave Lyons the toolbox is getting completely bogus inputs and may trash a lot
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of stuff & not even cause a
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Dave Lyons crash (C "fixes up" the stack when you leave a function, so you
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don't necessarily crash).
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AFA Gary J GA, Coach
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Coach101 Never mind.... I was about to put my foot in my mouth.... ga
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AFA Gary J Ok, anything else, Windrider?
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Windrider5 No I'll just keep trying
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AFA Gary J Jonah has the next question then. hanoJ AG
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ShanoJ Do I have to type my whole question backwards?! :)
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AFA Gary J Na, :)
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Coach101 Yes!
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Dave Lyons (What does Sodium have to do with it, Gary?)
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AFA Gary J :)
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ShanoJ I was wondering if ANYONE has gotten ORCA/C to work with Prizm
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properly? Or,
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ShanoJ if anyone has gotten Prizm to work properly by itself. :) Since I
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take it the
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ShanoJ answer to that is 'no', I was wondering if anyone knows of an bug
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in the
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ShanoJ editor that comes with ORCA/C (the text based one, and not the one
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that comes
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ShanoJ with APW--they're different). I keep on having a problem that
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after hitting
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ShanoJ OA-Q and S to save, the screen clears and then the GS just sits
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there.
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AFA Gary J GA Coach
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Coach101 I have had good success with PRIZM by itself...
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Coach101 That is using the graphics based editor with multiple
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windows....
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Coach101 As far as invoking the compiler form within PRIZM..
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Coach101 or debugging with the source level debugger...
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Coach101 Almost no success.... ga
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ShanoJ Sometimes the file is saved, sometimes not, and sometimes it just
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erases the
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ShanoJ old one. I was wondering if this is a known bug, or if it's
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probably that my
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ShanoJ program is trasking some memory and messing the editor up....
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AFA Gary J GA, Scott
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AFL Scott I've had some strange problems like that, Jonah, come to think of
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it...
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AFL Scott It's probably a combination of things. For example, if you use #
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pragma optimize -1,
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AFL Scott you can expect the stack to be trashed. Also, there
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AFL Scott are bugs with fseek. In short, I've seen what you've seen, Jonah.
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MikeW50 Howdy, folks.
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ShanoJ Hey Mike!
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AFL Marty Hi Mike
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ShanoJ Ya, but I've ALSO seen it when I'm working on an assembly program
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(it doesn't
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ShanoJ just happen in C development)...
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AFL Scott (Well, Mike's here... care to repeat the question?)
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ShanoJ So, if we assume ORCA/C massing up the stack is leading to the
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problem, then
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ShanoJ must we also assume that my Asm program is doing the same thing?
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:(
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ShanoJ Sure. Mike: I've had a problem that on exiting the editor that
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comes with
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ShanoJ ORCA/C, the screen clears and the GS crashes, sometimes after
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saving my file
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ShanoJ but just as often before or, even worse, erasing the old
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version....
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ShanoJ Is that a known bug with the editor?
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MikeW50 No. Are you using PRIZM or the text editor? ga
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ShanoJ The text based editor. PRIZM's a WHOLE 'nother story... :)
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MikeW50 :) True... one with a happy ending, I hope. No, I have never had
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the text
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MikeW50 editor crash saving a file. The only known bug in the text editor
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that is at
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MikeW50 all nasty is a bug in copy/paste that you run into if you are
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dealing with
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MikeW50 copies or pastes of 32K or greater.
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ShanoJ Would something a s16 program be doing possibly crash the editor?
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I could
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ShanoJ understand if it were an EXE file, because then the editor isn't
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reloaded (as
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ShanoJ I understand it). But with a s16 file, I would think it would have
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to be...
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ShanoJ No, don't think I've ever tried to copy half of one program into
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another, so
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ShanoJ that's probably not it... :)
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MikeW50 With an S16 file, the entire ORCA environment is reloaded when you
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return.
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MikeW50 That leaves 4 possibilities:
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MikeW50 1. You trashed GS/OS
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MikeW50 2. You trashed some other part of the O/S, or some critical
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setting
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MikeW50 3. There's some bug I don;t know about in the editor
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MikeW50 4. Hardware problems
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MikeW50 5. OK, one more: cosmic rays.
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MikeW50 done
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ShanoJ 1. Always possible, but I doubt it...
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ShanoJ 2. ditto
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ShanoJ 3. Hmm...
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ShanoJ 4. Oh no, not again... :)
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ShanoJ 5. That's probably it! :)
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AFL Scott Jonah, have you run diskcheck lately?
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ShanoJ Ya, just the other day. All four partitions are fine...
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AFA Gary J I'm having a similar problem with a trashed memory handle that I
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can't seem to track down.
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ShanoJ Also, it doesn't do it with any consistency, which is
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annoying...
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ShanoJ It'll do it once today, not at all tomorrow, but then every time I
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use the
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ShanoJ editor on Thursday...
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AFA Gary J Jonah: Don't program on Thursdays.
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ShanoJ Can't Gary: I'll go into withdrawl! :)
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AFA Parik (I had the prob till I started using rose & now maxedit..no
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probs)
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ShanoJ I can never get ROSE to work properly... (are the macros not
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implemented or was
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ShanoJ I just being a bonehead? :)
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MikeW50 $10 question: can anyone reproduce it? I've simply never seen
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this happen!
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AFA Parik come to my house and stay for a while :)
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ShanoJ Mike, we're not allowed to talk about reproducing on line. Its a
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violation of
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ShanoJ the TOS... :)
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AFA Gary J There are many kinds of reproduction, Jonah :)
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MikeW50 Without reproduction, bugs aren't real... ;)
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AFA Gary J Ok, you done Jonah? We'll move on to Parik's question if you
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are...
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AFA Gary J :)
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ShanoJ Yuppers, that's it for me...
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AFA Gary J Ok, Parik GA
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AFA Parik oh, my Q...
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AFA Parik is TaskMaster supposed to keep returning WinContent if the mouse
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is held down
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AFA Parik inside the window? It returns it once, but I want it to keep
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telling me if
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AFA Parik the mouse is held down... whats a good way to do it? _GetButton
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won't tell
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AFA Parik me if the mouse is in the window. :(
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Dave Lyons How 'bout FindWindow?
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AFA Parik (flipping thru book...)
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ShanoJ Ya, I don't think it'll repeatedly give you wInContent, but you
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can do a
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ShanoJ _button and then a _GetPortRect and then a _PtInRect to see if
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it's still in
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ShanoJ the window (I think...)
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AFA Gary J I've been doing something like that with _PtInRect, but I don't
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think it'll
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AFA Gary J work for a window.
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AFA Parik (my THIRD torn book...grr)
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AFA Parik (argh, F before G)
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Dave Lyons Jonah, FindWindow is better--why don't you like that?
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AFA Parik aha! looks like FindWindow will work. thanx
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Dave Lyons (Windows don't *have* to be rectangular, you know! Examples: a
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custom
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Dave Lyons window, or one that has been mutilated by my Puncture NDA (chops a
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weird-shaped region
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Dave Lyons out of the structure and content regions).)
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ShanoJ True, I thought you said _FrontWindow, which wouldn't work at
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all... Thinko, I
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ShanoJ guess... :)
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Dave Lyons BTW, if you wind up using Button to see if the button is "still
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down," consider using StillDown
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Dave Lyons instead. This way if the user lets up and presses it again, you
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won't think it's still down.
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AFA Gary J Ok. Does that do it for you then, Parik?
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AFA Parik thazzit for me! _StillDown and _FindWindow will be grueato.
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thanx
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Dave Lyons (That is, if they do it quickly & you don't see it while it's
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up.)
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AFA Gary J grueato?
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AFA Parik sorry, just got back from japanese
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ShanoJ A combination of grusome and neato? :)
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AFL Marty (sounds like some health food)
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ShanoJ Can I ask a resource question?
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AFA Gary J GA, Jonah
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ShanoJ Anyone know WHEN THE UPDATE TO GENESYS WILL BE READY?!? Uggh...
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AFA Parik its shipping
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AFA Parik v1.2, $15
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AFA Gary J GA Matt
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ShanoJ It is?! Really!! And it fixes all the bugs?!?!?!?
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Matt DTS I heard SSSi was waiting on us to get 5.0.3 out the door first,
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since Genesys 1.2 needs it. In that
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Matt DTS case, it's our fault. We hope (I know you've heard this before)
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to get 5.0.3 out the door this week,
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Matt DTS so it shouldn't be much longer if that is the case.
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Matt DTS (GA)
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ShanoJ Okay, I've got another ?
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AFA Gary J GA Again, Jonah :)
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ShanoJ (BTW, that's great to hear, Matt!! :)
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ShanoJ Doesn anyone have Complete Pascal, and if so, is it worth me
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upgrading to it,
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ShanoJ or should I just cut my losses and go for ORCA/Pascal, instead? (I
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already have
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ShanoJ TML II, BTW).
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AFA Gary J GA Mike :)
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AFA Gary J (I can guess his answer :)
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MikeW50 What's their upgrade price? I haven't heard...
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ShanoJ It's about $29, if I remember correctly....
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ShanoJ But it still isn't OMF compatible.... :(
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MikeW50 Pretty good for a new company, especially if that's with a
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manual.
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MikeW50 (I'd cut your lossed, though. ;) )
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AFA Gary J (Ahhh, I knew he'd say that somewhere in there :)
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ShanoJ So I take it no one here has it? Okay, GA Scott...
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AFA Gary J I have ORCA/Pascal. GA Scott
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AFL Scott Anyone have problems with either Orca or APW hanging when opening
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a file for editing after
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AFL Scott launching any program that uses resources besides "start"?
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ShanoJ Well, I've had a problem recently that it wouldn't recognise files
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on the
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ShanoJ disk that WERE there (it'd give me file not found errrors). Don't
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know if
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ShanoJ that's what you meant, though....
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AFA Gary J I have that problem with a program that doesn't use resources,
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Scott.
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AFA Gary J "Invalid Text Data", and "Invalid handle", or something like
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that.
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AFL Scott No, this actually loads the file, then when you'd think it'd be
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time for it to appear, the program
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Dave Lyons Scott, EXE or S16?
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AFL Scott (editor) hangs.. S16, Dave.
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MikeW50 Invalid text data is garbage in -- possibly a RAM error, disk read
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error, etc.
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AFA Gary J (Would seem so, Mike, but doesn't apply in my case)
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MikeW50 For those seeing hangs: 1) How much memory do you have, 2) What
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program
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MikeW50 launcher are you using, 3) What O/S version?
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AFL Scott 4 megs. Either Wings or Finder. 5.0.2.
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ShanoJ 1) 2.25 Megs; 2) The Finder; 3) Latest 3.0.?
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AFA Gary J Hmmm, program launcher? That could make a difference, eh? I'm
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using Squirt-16
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AFA Gary J and 5.0.2.
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AFA Gary J (3.25 megs with a 1.25 meg ROM disk on Memory Saver)
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KentHayden I read in the Prosel section that someone thinks Prosel 16 may be
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causing a
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KentHayden problem with the Orca shell environment..
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MikeW50 (Some versions of ProSel had problems... I always wondered if Glen
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put in a
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MikeW50 whale check...)
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AFA Gary J Interesting. I'll launch from Finder next time and see if it
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makes any
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AFA Gary J difference.
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MikeW50 Look folks -- I'm working on an ORCA/M upgrade right now, for
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release very
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MikeW50 very soon. If ANYONE can pin this down, please let me know so I
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can fix it
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MikeW50 (if it's my problem).
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AFA Gary J I'd like to find it. Especially if my program is causing it.
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Dave Lyons Can anybody fry it reliably on a FLOPPY?
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Dave Lyons (If so, send it to me & I can logic-analyzer it.)
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AFA Gary J (I'll send you a copy Dave :)
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ShanoJ Can I ask another non Pascal & C question? :)
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AFA Gary J Why not, Jonah. GA
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AFA Parik (remember, dana carvey;thursday,9:00pm, center stage!)
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ShanoJ Okay, for Twilight I need to see if a key has been pressed from an
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interrupt
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ShanoJ that executes once every 5 heartbeats. Reading $E0C000 doesn't
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work very well,
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ShanoJ and $E0C027 (KMSTATUS) doesn't always work well, either. Is there
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any good
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ShanoJ way to do this?
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AFA Gary J GA Dave
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Dave Lyons As long as you don't care *what* key was
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Dave Lyons pressed, you can do what I do in "Dimmer" (a CDA that ships as a
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freebie along with P8CDA from
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Dave Lyons Roger Wagner Publ): I watch for $E0C000 to *change*, and I watch
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for certain bits in
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ShanoJ (subtle plug... :)
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Dave Lyons $E0C025 (modifiers) to change, taking any change as a signal that
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I shouldn't dim the screen.
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ShanoJ Ah, so you don't just peek at the top bit, you look at the whole
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thing? Ya,
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Dave Lyons Even though the Event Manager grabs the keys away from C000 during
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its own heartbeat task, this
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Dave Lyons still changes bits most of the time (for some reason it even works
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if you keep pressing the
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Dave Lyons -same- key; not sure why).
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Dave Lyons (Yes, I watch all 8 bits of $E0C000.)
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ShanoJ that sounds like it'd work well! Thanks a lot--that's a real
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lifesaver! :)
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ShanoJ (New version of Twilight coming soon! Everyone remember to enter
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the contest!:)
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AFA Gary J Interesting.
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AFA Gary J GA, ShanoJ
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ShanoJ Got one last one: Anyone here tried porting large amounts of UNIX
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C source to
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ShanoJ ORCA/C? How hard is it?
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AFA Gary J GA Matt
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Matt DTS I'm currently in the process of porting small amounts of
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Unix/MS-DOS source to ORCA/C, and so far
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Matt DTS have run into only one major problem - a semi-standard library
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routine (vsprintf) that is
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Matt DTS not part of ANSI (or most Unix) C but is in this program.
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Matt DTS Fortunately, Mike sells the library sources for about $30 so you
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can add such things if you need to.
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Matt DTS GA.
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ShanoJ Okay, that's hopeful, I guess. I was thinking the other day that
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there's a LOT
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ShanoJ of neat UNIX warez out there that the GS could REALLY benifit
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from, and if it
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ShanoJ wasn't a HUGE chore it might be neat to port some of them....
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Dave Lyons (Oh, and "FILE *blahblah = stdin;" didn't compile either.
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Anybody know if that's supposed to
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Dave Lyons work in ANSI? stdin was an external, so it wouldn't work as an
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initializer.)
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Dave Lyons ("FILE *blahblah; ... blahblah = stdin;" worked fine, of
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course.)
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Dave Lyons (Oh, Coach is gone. <dead silence> )
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ShanoJ (Heh, got another ? for Matt & Dave: does a HeartBeat task really
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get kicked
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ShanoJ out of the queue if it's period is set to 0? The TB ref seemed to
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say that...)
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Dave Lyons No, it just doesn't get called any more.
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Dave Lyons (Until somebody sets it back to nonzero.)
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ShanoJ Okay, that's a relief. Thanks again!
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Dave Lyons (Use Nifty List! ~h will show you your task is still there, even
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after you store NOPs over
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Dave Lyons the part of it that resets its own count.)
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ShanoJ Was it supposed to get tossed, and that was never implemented, or
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am I just
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ShanoJ reading the TB ref poorly? :)
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Dave Lyons Probably the TB Ref is just doing a mediocre job of trying to
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describe reality. The
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Dave Lyons toolbox is working as designed, and as moderately-well described.
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:)
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Dave Lyons (Only DelHeartBeat and ClrHeartBeat [don't call ClrHeartBeat!]
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remove tasks from the hb queue.)
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ShanoJ Oh, here's one for Matt: In the new APF file format with the
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MILTIPAL (spelled
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ShanoJ that wrong in the header, BTW) block, should the NumScanLines
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field in the
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ShanoJ MAIN block be set to 200 or to 0 or what?
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Dave Lyons (Depends on whether you've got actual data in the MAIN block,
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eh?)
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Matt DTS Don't have the note in front of me - it does depend on what you
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have in Main, though. (It should be
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Matt DTS spelled MULTIPAL, I believe. Kept trying to spell it MULTIPAT for
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some reason.)
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ShanoJ Okay, but does that mean that you should ONLY use MULTIPAL if
|
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there's no MAIN
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ShanoJ block, and if there is a MAIN block, there doesn't need to be a
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|
MULTIPAL block?
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ShanoJ Kinda like a PALETTES file without a MAIN block and a MAIN file
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|
without a
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ShanoJ PALETTES block?
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Matt DTS No, I don't think so. The MULTIPAL block gives up to 200 color
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|
tables to be used instead of what's in
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Matt DTS MAIN, if I remember correctly. MULTIPAL is not like PALETTES -
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MULTIPAL supplements MAIN; PALETTES
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|
Matt DTS gives similar information to MAIN for when MAIN is not there (If
|
|
there's both MAIN and PALETTES,
|
|
Matt DTS you're supposed to use the palettes in MAIN).
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|
ShanoJ But I couldn't figure out what was supposed to go where: If there
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|
are 200
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|
ShanoJ palette, why not just set the NumPalettes field in the MAIN block
|
|
to 200 and
|
|
ShanoJ toss the MULTIPAL block? Or is this a no-no and I should set the
|
|
NumPalettes to
|
|
ShanoJ 0. Or should I put the palettes in BOTH places?
|
|
Dave Lyons I don't think you should put more than 16 color tables in the MAIN
|
|
block--we considered
|
|
Dave Lyons that, but I think we decided existing applications wouldn't deal
|
|
with it appropriately, if at all.
|
|
Dave Lyons BTW, where is MULTIPAL misspelled? I can't find it wrong anywhere
|
|
in the final copy.
|
|
Matt DTS That sounds familiar. (You have to realize Dave and I intend to
|
|
invent these things late on Saturday
|
|
Matt DTS nights, although this one was mostly John Maclean's invention.)
|
|
Matt DTS (I think it's in the abstract)
|
|
Dave Lyons OOPS! Never mind--in the note's synopsis. MUILTIPAT.
|
|
Dave Lyons (yea)
|
|
ShanoJ Okay, then I set the NumPalettes to 0? That leads me to another
|
|
question:
|
|
Dave Lyons Yes, you can make Main have 0 color tables, as long as you really
|
|
have 0 color tables stored there.
|
|
ShanoJ The note says PaletteArray [0..NumPalettes] of Palette. Now, if
|
|
NumPalettes
|
|
ShanoJ is 0, that's [0..-1] and if NumPalettes is 1 thats [0..0], right?
|
|
Isn't
|
|
ShanoJ that wrong?
|
|
ShanoJ Wait, you mean I have to acutally store a color table there even
|
|
if I set the
|
|
ShanoJ NumPalettes field to 0? Wont that mess things up MAJORLY?!
|
|
Dave Lyons What?
|
|
Dave Lyons What's the date on your note? It says "color tables" everywhere
|
|
on the Sept 90 version.
|
|
ShanoJ Hmm... I think I have the Sept '90 note... Wait, I'm wrong, the
|
|
one on disk is
|
|
ShanoJ Sept '90, but the one in front of me is Nov '88. Guess I'll have
|
|
to print out
|
|
ShanoJ the new notes soon... :)
|
|
Dave Lyons No, if you put NumColorTables=0 and have no color tables following
|
|
it, that's fine. Isn't that what
|
|
Dave Lyons I said?
|
|
Dave Lyons 0..NumPalettes-1 is correct. How many numbers are in the range
|
|
0..0? One.
|
|
Dave Lyons How many numbers are in the range 0..-1? Zero. Perfect.
|
|
ShanoJ Oh, I always thought there were 0 numbers in the range 0..0. Guess
|
|
you're
|
|
ShanoJ right, though... Okay, I'm beginning to make no sense so I think
|
|
I'll go to
|
|
ShanoJ sleep now. :) Thanks for the help, Dave and Matt, and I hope I
|
|
don't sound
|
|
ShanoJ like a COMPLETE idiot! :)
|
|
Matt DTS Jonah, it's acceptable to have not gotten new notes yet but not to
|
|
have them and not have looked at
|
|
Matt DTS them. :(
|
|
Dave Lyons (Yeah, "Pascal-style" ranges are inclusive on both ends. So there
|
|
are N numbers in 1..N or 0..N-1.)
|
|
ShanoJ (juse a partial idiot... :)
|
|
ShanoJ No, I have the new notes, and I've looked at them and they're the
|
|
ones I refer
|
|
ShanoJ to, but I also have a binder with some of the important ones
|
|
printed out, and
|
|
AFA Gary J (And the new index makes them all the more easier to use)
|
|
ShanoJ since the notes are on my third partition, I can't look at them
|
|
while online,
|
|
ShanoJ so I was just looking at the old version I had printed out. I DO
|
|
use the new
|
|
ShanoJ ones, though--otherwise I wouldn't know about the MULTIPAL block.
|
|
:)
|
|
AFA Gary J You're not using the GS/OS version of AO?
|
|
ShanoJ No, Gary, I'm using the P8 version. The GS/OS version can never
|
|
connect for
|
|
ShanoJ me....
|
|
AFA Gary J Hmmm. Ok. (Works great for me)
|
|
Dave Lyons (Yeah, that index was fun. Some weird Dave Humor is in there,
|
|
too.)
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
Matt DTS True. I missed a concert (accidentally) to do that index.
|
|
AFA Gary J Weird Dave humor seems to be invading the universe :)
|
|
|