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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, October 30, 1990  10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic:  Open Topic
Forum Leader:  Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)

AFA Gary J Ok.  Let me start this conference officially....
AFA Gary J Good evening, and welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. 
           Tonight is
AFA Gary J an open topic, so feel free to bring up any development related
           question you'd
AFA Gary J like.  Let's don't use protocol just yet, unless things get out
           of hand.
ShanoJ     Dave, I think I found a bug in NiftyList. :(
Dave Lyons :(  What?
ShanoJ     Not a big one, though. :) If you type something like ?~s, it'll
           give you the
ShanoJ     description of the '~' commands, and then execute an 's' command,
           rather than
ShanoJ     give the description of the ~s command, which I would have
           expected...
Dave Lyons Well...it's a feature.
Dave Lyons Yeah, the Help ("?" or "=") only eats one character, except for
           the "\" command.  The
Dave Lyons parsing for stuff like "~" and ";" and "_" and ">" is inside the
           command itself.  I suppose I
Dave Lyons should mention that in the docs, though.  (Stuff like
           "?_NewHandle..." should be really
Dave Lyons insteresting... :) )
AFA Gary J :)
ShanoJ     Oh, okay, that's kinda what I thought. :)
ShanoJ     BTW Dave, thanks again for the suggestion of saving the value of
           $E0C000 and 
ShanoJ     seeing if ANY of it changes. I stuck that into Twilight and it
           works REALLY
ShanoJ     well! :)
Dave Lyons (good!)
Dave Lyons BTW, I've got a minimally-working version of "Nifty List NDA"
           (needs some more tweaking before
Dave Lyons it's presentable, but the concept definitely works).
ShanoJ     Hey, that's pretty awesome! I think I'll probably stick to the
           CDA, though...
ShanoJ     I find for development stuff I prefer having the separation
           between the 
ShanoJ     application and the debugging utils. Can't wait to see it,
           though!!
Dave Lyons Yeah, I'll keep using the CDA most of the time too, but when you
           want to play with the toolbox and
Dave Lyons see the results on the screen, an NDA version is cool.  Also, you
           get cut/copy/paste editing in
Dave Lyons the NDA, so you can scroll around and even have little scripts you
           load off disk or whatever (it
Dave Lyons executes as commands whatever text you select before pressing
           Enter, just like MPW).
ShanoJ     Ya, that sounds really awesome! I wish I had the skill to do
           parsing like you
ShanoJ     do in NL. Stuff like that is still beyond me. :(
Dave Lyons Which part of the parsing is hard?  Doing "expressions" is a
           little fun, but mostly it
Dave Lyons goes left-to-right and calls a command subroutine for each
           different letter.  It's built on top of
Dave Lyons two routines:  get-the-next-character and get-the-same-character,
           with the convention that
Dave Lyons when you get called you're already "at" the first un-parsed
           character (this is just how Applesoft
Dave Lyons works, only it's getting "tokens" which can be characters or whole
           reserved words).
ShanoJ     Ya, mentally I can comprehend what you're doing, but how to
           actually CODE
ShanoJ     something like that... Especially expressions like:
ShanoJ     _Call1(_Subcall1(_SubCall1a), _Subcall2(_Subcall2a(_Subcall2b)))
WinkieJim  Looks simple to me :)
Dave Lyons It's not as bad as it seems--you're really just parsing
           _call1(blah1,blah2), so you parse
Dave Lyons "_call1" and look for a "(".  Then you call the *same* routine
           you're already in to parse the
Dave Lyons first sub-expression; then you check whether you're at a "," or a
           ")" (otherwise it's an error).  If
Dave Lyons you're at a ")" you're done, and if you're at a "," you munch it
           and parse another sub-expression, and
Dave Lyons that's about it.
Dave Lyons The trick is to save the right stuff on the stack (or something
           equivalent) when you call yourself
Dave Lyons recursively).
Dave Lyons (The other trick is to invent good data structures--then you
           "just" have to
Dave Lyons write the code that uses them.)
ShanoJ     Ya, I had to write a recursive quicksort in assembly the other
           day, and it was
ShanoJ     NOT fun.... :(
Dave Lyons Not even after it worked? :)
ShanoJ     What makes you think it worked?! :) Actually, it does blow the
           pants off of
ShanoJ     my old bubble sort routine (right, Scott?! :), so I guess it was
           worth it. 
ShanoJ     Biggest problem was that if and only if the array was already
           sorted it would 
ShanoJ     overflow the stack. Took mbout two days to figure that out... :(
Dave Lyons Is that a stable sort?  (That is, do "tied" items stay in their
           original order?)
ShanoJ     You mean if there's three 3's in a row will they still be in the
           same relative
ShanoJ     positions after it's done sorting?
Dave Lyons (Jonah, yes--that's what I meant by a stable sort.)
ShanoJ     (Hmm, tell you the ruth I don't know. I wouldn't think so,
           though.... How do
ShanoJ     you test something like that? Uh, probably I could figure it out
           if I thought
ShanoJ     about it... :)
Dave Lyons (Yeah, you'd generally want to prove it rather than test it--just
           wondering.)
Surak TFF  Question: I am trying to play a sound from inside a CDEV. I have
           the Snd Tools
Surak TFF  started up, (after checking to see if they were ALREADY started of
           course), and
Surak TFF  I go to make my _FFStartSound call, when, right after the
           _FFStartSound call,
Surak TFF  I get an error $0012.... I can't find this error listed in any
           book, anywhere.
Surak TFF  And I am using the same procedure for playing a sound which worked
           perfectly
Surak TFF  in another part of the same program...
Dave Lyons Surak, sounds very strange.  $0012 doesn't mean anything to me
           offhand.  Are you setting the
Dave Lyons Bank register in your CDev?  Are you sure you're allocating
           direct-page space properly and
Dave Lyons successfully starting up the Sound Tools?
Surak TFF  Yes, there was no error on _SoundStartUp, and as far as DP space,
           the rest of
Surak TFF  the CDev seems to work right :)    A strange thing is, if I take
           out the error
Surak TFF  check after the _FFStartSound call, the sound doesn't play, but
           the machine
Surak TFF  doesn't hang or crash either - it just doesn't do anything with
           the sound at
Surak TFF  all.
Surak TFF  (So it's probably not that invalid data is in the parameter block,
           as far as
Surak TFF  I can figure)...
Dave Lyons Ah--does your "error check" consist of calling SysFailMgr with the
           returned error code?
Surak TFF  Well, basically...
Surak TFF  (that will, of course, be changed when the program is finished
           :)
Dave Lyons I've got a feeling the $0012 you got was supposed to be a $0812 (I
           remember at least one Sound
Dave Lyons Tools bug like that, where it was failing to stick on the tool
           number).  I belive $0812 means you
Dave Lyons haven't started up the Sound Tools (even if SoundStartUp didn't
           return an error, something
Dave Lyons could have gone wrong--like maybe you somehow passed zero for the
           direct-page address).
Surak TFF  $0812 is Sound Tools Not Started. But how can I start them up, if
           SoundStartUp
Surak TFF  doesn't do it?
Dave Lyons Check the values that are really getting passed--have it display
           the direct-page value
Dave Lyons and see if it's valid!  Maybe your NewHandle failed, or maybe
           you're not dereferencing the
Dave Lyons handle properly.
Surak TFF  Well, I used the Memory Manager to get a $100 byte page-aligned
           locked block in
Surak TFF  bank 0, dereferenced the handle, and then passed the low word of
           the pointer I
Surak TFF  got to the tools....
Dave Lyons Sounds right, but one of those steps isn't happening right.
ShanoJ     Dan, why not pop into NiftyList after you THINK you've started the
           sound tools
ShanoJ     and see if they're actually started?
Surak TFF  THe problem with that, Jonah, is that it happens so fast I have no
           way of tell-
Surak TFF  ing when they are started before the system "fails" :(
Surak TFF  (I could put in a BRK or something)...
ShanoJ     Why not put a brk 00 into the code and THEN pop into NL! :)
WinkieJim  <---lives on BRKs :)
ShanoJ     BRK's rule, especially with GSBug INIT installed!! :)
WinkieJim  <---has a basket full of BRKs next to my desk :)
Nuzz       I BRK for animals
ShanoJ     Really Mike? I only BRK for bugs.... :)
Nuzz       But my bugs are REAL animals to find
WinkieJim  I see a bumper sticker taking form here...:) 
WinkieJim  I BRK for bugs!
ShanoJ     Do you think anyone would understand a bumper sticker like that?!
           LOL :)
AFA Gary J (Winkie:  You'd sure find out who knows anything about 6502's
           with a bumper
AFA Gary J sticker like that :)
ShanoJ     Dave, are there any plans to create new official scrap types? I
           would think a
ShanoJ     sound scrap would be particularly suited to the GS...
Dave Lyons Jonah, a Sound scrap sounds cool to me...we should pound out an
           exact spec.
Surak TFF  (A sound scrap is a good idea.... It'd be quite useful)
Surak TFF  Well, the routine I used in the same program to get DP for
           Standard File was
Surak TFF  copied EXACTLY (cut and paste) for this, and it works for SF....
           Very strange..
Dave Lyons Obviously something is different in the environment--cut and paste
           doesn't guarantee it's
Dave Lyons going to work in a different program.  Do you have the B and D
           registers set up when you use this
Dave Lyons re-used code?
WinkieJim  Are you checking for an error from the NewHandle call?
Surak TFF  Well, it is in the SAME program.... :)    And the B/D registers
           are set up
Surak TFF  by the CDEV before the CDEV jumps to the various routines it
           has...
Surak TFF  (and yes, I am checking for a NewHandle error :)
WinkieJim  Does your CDev set it's own Direct Page?
Surak TFF  Yes, it does, Jim...
Surak TFF  It is probably just a simple mistake I made somewhere (it happens
           often enough,
Surak TFF  anyway), it was just the $0012 error that threw me...
WinkieJim  Hmmm, I've a NDA that I've worked on and I found that if I set the
           direct
WinkieJim  page that some tools calls behaved wierdly unless I restore the
           direct page
WinkieJim  that was active when I got control ...
WinkieJim  might want to to try restoring the original DP before calling
           tools...
Surak TFF  Well, I haven't had any problems with the direct page before.... I
           could check
Surak TFF  that out, but first I could see if the sound tools are actually
           getting 
Surak TFF  started....
Surak TFF  (though I won't really know what to do if they're not :(  )
Surak TFF  (except check for typos ;)
Dave Lyons Nah, no tools require a special D value when you call them--and
           they don't change it on you
Dave Lyons either.  But you do need to put B and D back before you return
           control to the system from your CDev.
Surak TFF  Oh, yes, the CDev does do that...
Dave Lyons Surak, are you using $C015 for the attributes of your direct-page
           handle?
ShanoJ     Can you open a window from a CDEV with a NewWindow2 call? Probably
           not because
ShanoJ     it's an NDA, right?
Surak TFF  Yes, $C015 attributes.....
Dave Lyons You can, but it has to stay modal--there's currently no way for an
           NDA to have more than
Dave Lyons one modeless window.
ShanoJ     Hmm.... That has some interesting possibilities... :) 
AFA Parik  would fakemodaldialog work?
Dave Lyons Yes, you should be able to use fakeModalDialog fine, as long as
           you *don't* let it update
Dave Lyons background windows or open NDAs from within the modal window.
Dave Lyons (The restriction on updating is because it would call Application
           content-draw routines without
Dave Lyons setting the ResourceApp correctly.)
ShanoJ     Okay, color me stupid but what's fakeModalDialog?
Surak TFF  Good question, Jonah... Sounds familiar but I can't place it...
           :)
Dave Lyons Do you want that, Matt?
Matt DTS   FakeModalDialog is a tool provided in the latest round of Sample
           Code from DTS.
Matt DTS   It allows you to implement modal dialog boxes without using the
           Dialog Manager.  This means you
Matt DTS   can use all the facilities of System 5.0, including extended
           controls and windows.
ShanoJ     Ah, I KNEW I'd seen it somewhere! Thanks for coloring me stupid,
           Matt! :)
Matt DTS   You create the window, tell FMD to treat it as a Modal Dialog and
           it does the rest.
Matt DTS   (It can also deal with "movable modal dialogs", a new interface
           component.)
Matt DTS   Partners, Associates and KFest attendees got a manual on the
           tools; it's not otherwise available at
Matt DTS   this point.  If you REALLY DESPERATELY need it, send me some US
           Mail with your address and appropriate
Matt DTS   groveling, and I'll forward it to the Take Pity committee.
Matt DTS   (GA)
WinkieJim  BRIBE?
WinkieJim  :)
ShanoJ     Okay, thanks Matt!!

ShanoJ     How does Glen Bredon do those's Text/SHR 'screens' for ProSEL?
AFA Parik  overscan
ShanoJ     No, I mean how does he shadow the text screen to the SHR screen?
           Guess he
ShanoJ     'just' loads the characters from the text screen and draws them
           back to the SHR
ShanoJ     screen? Sure s QUICK.
AFA Parik  or his COUT prints to both shr & text if shr active (otherwise
           only text)
AFA Gary J Probably that, Parik.
A2GS       Personally, I think he uses the heimlich menuevar.
AFA Parik  anyone know what "My Word" is?  Heard its a word-processor by (!)
           gary little
Matt DTS   It's a WP based on TextEdit that reads "Teach", AppleWorks WP and
           text files.  It's included on the
Matt DTS   latest Developer CD ("Night of the Living Disc") so we could ship
           some online docs for things like
Matt DTS   Universal Access with styles in them.
AFA Parik  is it on the Prodos partition?
Matt DTS   Yes, it's in the "Utilites" folder if I recall.
Matt DTS   (the icon points to it so you can use DIcEd to find out from the
           ICONS folder)
ShanoJ     (Where'd the name "Teach" come from?)
ShanoJ     Any word on the release of 5.0.3? Is that why Platinum Paint is no
           longer being
ShanoJ     distributed?
Matt DTS   5.0.3 is Golden Master and is available to Partners and Associates
           on AppleLink right now.
Matt DTS   It will get to the general public in a few weeks, after developers
           have a chance to make sure it works
Matt DTS   with their software before they get flooded with phone calls.
AFA Parik  is the CD-version golden-master?  (hi joey)
A2GS       Correct me if I'm wrong...was Hypercard GS released on the Dev.
           CD?
AFA JoeyS  (woo)
ShanoJ     "Golden Master"?
WinkieJim  Shano, Golden Master is one step before the public gets it.
Matt DTS   No, the CD version is *NOT* Golden Master.  For your usage
           purposes, the only thing that changed is
Matt DTS   the LaserWriter driver.  However, as always, you may not ship
           anything other than what Software
Matt DTS   Licensing sends you.
ShanoJ     (Thanks, Jim)
WinkieJim  (Unless it goes backwards :) :)
AFA Parik  ok.  great!  no lw here :)
Nuzz       I licensed 5.0.2, does that mean that I can ship 5.0.3 or do I
           need another one
Nuzz       for that
Matt DTS   Your license covers 5.0.x, Mike, but you have to wait for the
           disks from Licensing.
Matt DTS   Further information is on AppleLink in the AIIDTS folder, along
           with the 5.0.3 package itself.
Matt DTS   (further licensing information)

A2GS       BTW...I'm not sure if this falls within Non-Dis., but Matt, have
           you started
A2GS       work on 6.0?
Matt DTS   We haven't announced any 6.0 project, A2.
A2GS       ok, thanx
AFA JoeyS  So what's after 5.0.3, then??  :)
AFA JoeyS  (preparing to dodge pies)
WinkieJim  5.0.4
WinkieJim  :)
AFA Parik  a big vacation I imagine
AFA JoeyS  Oh, thank you... :-)
Nuzz       Why did I expect that answer :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFA JoeyS  <tiddy-boom>
WinkieJim  or m aybe 5.0.3.1

AFL Scott  I got a question... why are control def procs so fast!  I've got
           beta testers
AFL Scott  complaining of scrollbar ping pong!:) 
AFL Scott  I had to put a delay in just to slow it down...:)
Dave Lyons Is your delay based on the tick count, Scott?
AFL Scott  Yessir!:)  
Dave Lyons Good!  Yeah, Mac people had the same problem.  Scroll bars that
           worked just great on a Mac Plus
Dave Lyons sometimes went a little too fast on a IIfx. :)  Tognazini claims
           in an Apple Direct article that
Dave Lyons Inside Mac told folks from the beginning to max their scrolling
           speed by the tick count, but nobody
Dave Lyons I know has found evidence of this.... :)
AFL Scott  LOL!:)  That's a good one!:)  Seriously, though....
AFL Scott  Hey, BTW, the access to control actions procedures is really clean
           using Windows instead of Dialogs..
AFL Scott  It was a problem that I never in my life anticipated.  People on
           unaccelerated GS'
AFL Scott  were complaining... I knew I did it right then.  I truly love the
           new way to do it.  It's nicer
AFL Scott  to operate using part codes instead of messages. 

A2GS       How does one remove a device (ex. 5.25 drive) from the active
           device list, I
A2GS       would assume it involves deavtivating the appropriate DIB,
           right?
AFA JoeyS  Under P8 or GS/OS, A2GS?
Dave Lyons Nope, you can never remove a device from the device list.
Dave Lyons (Except by rebooting, of course.)
Matt DTS   You can add new ones, but you can't remove ones that are there
           without rebooting the system.
Dave Lyons (These answers are for GS/OS, by the way.)
A2GS       under GS/OS...
A2GS       You can add a DIB, but not remove it?
Matt DTS   Yes.
Dave Lyons A2GS, Yes.  It makes sense, too--what if a program got the device
           number from somewhere and
Dave Lyons decided to do some operations with it later--it wouldn't be good
           if some other device was
Dave Lyons there then.
A2GS       What about making a Driver Shutdown call?
Matt DTS   1)  You can't make a driver shutdown call.
Matt DTS   2)  That still doesn't stop the problem of other people trying to
           use the device.

AFL Scott  I have another question... What is the apple preferred way to
           handle a preference selection...
AFL Scott  Currently, I'm just opening up a "Modal" window and getting the
           selections, then writing them to disk.
AFL Scott  Creation is another story.  If no file is found, I ask the user if
           creation is desired, if not, I just
AFL Scott  use defaults and don't tell them... is that ok?
Matt DTS   That's fine, but some preferences are best represented by
           "checked' menu items.
Matt DTS   As for creation, you don't have to ask permission to create a
           preferences file.  Just don't complain
Matt DTS   if there's an error.  (And be sure to get an auxtype from DTS
           before shipping.)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Scott  OK, Matt, will do!  Where is the _proper_ place to put a
           preference file?  In the system folder as on
AFL Scott  Macs?
Dave Lyons (BTW, I think you *should* warn the user if you're unable to save
           their non-default preferences.)
Dave Lyons 9/blahblah.config is the best place.  There's
Dave Lyons even a technote that says so.
Matt DTS   No, "@:blahblah" is the best place if you're an application. 
           (Shame, shame, Dave.  You even wrote
Matt DTS   that note.)(
AFL Scott  Ok... Thanks!:)  
AFA Gary J Which note is that?
AFA Gary J (Do you know off hand?)
Matt DTS   (GS/OS #11, "Using the @ prefix."  I think.)
AFA Gary J (Ah, ok.  looking)
Dave Lyons (That's what I meant.  Sorry, I hurt my elbow.)
AFA JoeyS  :)

AFL Scott  Nice article on printer drivers, Matt!:)
Matt DTS   Thank you.  It was written on no sleep, but they wouldn't let me
           print that.
Matt DTS   (I love being a martyr.)
AFA Gary J :)
Dave Lyons Matt, aren't Martyrs supposed to die?

Paladin13  I got a question
Paladin13  if you use a loop with Gettick as a time delay will that work with
           accelerator
Paladin13  boards too
Dave Lyons Yes.  There are always 60 ticks per second, no matter what
           accelerators are around.
Matt DTS   Only if you base your loop on the tick count. :)
Dave Lyons (Or maybe it's 50 in Europe, but it still doesn't depend on the
           system speed.)
Paladin13  Great thats how I wrote all my delay stuff
A2GS       try basing your ticks on Scan Line interrupts  :)
Paladin13  I was hoping the accelerators wouldn't throw it off :)
AFA Gary J Find someone with a Transwarp to beta test for you.
Paladin13  Why A2GS?
A2GS       Should speed things up immensly  :)
Paladin13  Actually I was thinking of purchasing it I know someone who is
           dumping his for
Paladin13  $200
A2GS       only kidding...stick with what works...60 ticks per sec.