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469 lines
22 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, November 27, 1990 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Open Topic
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, tonight is our open topic night...this means you can bring
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up any
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AFL Dyfet development questions or problems you wish, including 'what is Gib
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coding' :)
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A2Evanglst LOL!!! I am playing with the new version of Genesys trying to see
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what I can do with it ;)
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Tamira (Just don't break it Gib)
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead, Windrider...you have the floor now...
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Windrider5 I'm interested in how to have a "floating window"
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Windrider5 that is a window that whether or not it is active will appear in
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front of all
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Windrider5 others
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ShanoJ I think you have to not use Task Master OR patch the toolbox so
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that other
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ShanoJ windows ca't be brought in front of it....
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SteveB Well, I looked at the Twilight code, and unfortunately I can't
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make a blanker
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SteveB bacause CP doesn't suppot that file type. :((((((((
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SteveB You can only make Desktop apps, CDA's, and NDA's :(((
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ShanoJ Oh I see.... Ya, Complete Pascal won't cut it for Blanker writing.
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I think
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ShanoJ ORCA/Pascal will do it, though....
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SteveB Hm...maybee I should get that... :)
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ShanoJ Well, I prefer it, but that's because I like using combinations of
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languages,
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ShanoJ and I can't do that in Complete Pascal.... :(
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SteveB Or, maybe I should try to write one in ASM! Ugg, that would be
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dangerous!
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SteveB especially me writeing one! :) :)
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SteveB Well, Jonah, Vince Cooper said that soon he might be adding some
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new
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SteveB features to CP, so we'll have to wait.. :)
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ShanoJ Well I hope SOMEONE enters. I hear there's only ONE entry in the
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programming
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ShanoJ division, and it'd be a shame if he won all of those nifty prizes
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by default.:(
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AFL Dyfet What kinda initialization/launch environment does a blanker
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recieve?
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AFL Dyfet Does it use a custom initialization with lead pointers, does it
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receive a
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AFL Dyfet normal S16-like launch with a command string, or what?
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ShanoJ Well, I call the blanker from Twilight like this:
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ShanoJ pushlong #TextStr
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ShanoJ pushlong #MoveFlag
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ShanoJ pushword YourID
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ShanoJ jsl TheBlanker
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ShanoJ Now, if I understand things properly that shows up in a Pascal
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header something
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ShanoJ like this: procedure MyBlanker(TextStr,
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MoveFlag:Longint;MyId:Word); (I'm
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ShanoJ not sure exactly what the types are, but that's the general idea.
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Thing is,
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ShanoJ Complete Pascal won't let you do stand alone procedures, which I
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THINK the
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ShanoJ ORCA languages do.....
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ShanoJ (for writing libraries and the like....)
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AFL Dyfet Yes, but any compiler will normally generate a root launch
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interface...
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Dave Lyons (Do you expect the routine to remove the parameters before
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returning? Pascal will.)
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SteveB Yes, hopefully in the future.. :)
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AFL Dyfet You can create stand alone OBJ files, but NOT loadable/linked
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executables with
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AFL Dyfet stand alone procedures...linking will bring in the front end
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(whether it's an
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AFL Dyfet NDA front end, quit-launch handling, or whatever). The result is
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a
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AFL Dyfet load file with a front end launch environment in front of any
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stand alone
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AFL Dyfet procedures.
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AFL Dyfet Well, let's give Scott here a chance :)...GA Scott...
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AFL Scott Is there a problem with the new Imagewriter DC printer driver that
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causes it to not stop printing
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AFL Scott When the background color is not white?
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AFL Scott (ie palette index 0?)
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Dave Lyons (Not that I've heard of.)
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AFL Scott Ok, this happens with every program I have. Including Allison.
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AFL Scott Just wondering.
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AFL Dyfet Hmm...will have to test that myself, Scott...
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AFL Dyfet GA Windrider...
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Windrider5 I'd like to try again with my question about "floating windows"
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AFL Dyfet Okay!
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Windrider5 How can I have an window in front of other windows without it
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being active?
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AFL Dyfet GA Dave...
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Dave Lyons Yeah, if you call
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Dave Lyons TaskMaster you need to turn off the bit that makes it select
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Dave Lyons windows that you click on, that's step 1.
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Dave Lyons Then you have to manage the "front" window yourself--using
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HiliteWindow and SendBehind, rather
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Dave Lyons than SelectWindow.
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Dave Lyons Note--
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Dave Lyons your "windoid" won't *always* be in front--it will just be in
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front of your application's other
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Dave Lyons windows. Desk Accessory windows will be in front of your windoid
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(or else they won't work!).
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Dave Lyons And your modal dialogs will probably be in front of your
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windoid(s) too.
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Dave Lyons Does that help?
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Windrider5 yes thank you!
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Dave Lyons (Not sure whether anything weird will
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Dave Lyons happen when the Real front window gets closed--the
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Dave Lyons window manager may try to hilite the windoid for you--but that
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probably just means you'll want
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Dave Lyons a borderless window & draw your own title-like thing in it.)
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Dave Lyons (ga)
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AFL Dyfet Okay...
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AFL Dyfet Do we have any more questions for the queue tonight?
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Coach101 What does everyone think of the Apple II manual that just came out
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in the developer mailings?
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AFL Dyfet First, who here has received the mailing already?
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Matt DTS (Would this be "The Apple II Guide"?)
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Coach101 Yep, I think that is the name I was looking for...
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Windrider5 Is it being sent to all APDA members?
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A2GS It's nice, but it seems more of a book to help shut people up then
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to help the
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A2GS II...the dealer information in the back is VERY inaccurate.
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AFL Marty What about the rest of the information in it?
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Coach101 What do you mean by "... shut people up...." ?
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Lucky24 I haven't seen the book yet, but I heard it was quite nice. I
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don't think
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Lucky24 it's nice to talk negatively of this.. It was worked on by a lot
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of people
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Lucky24 And it does promote the Apple II
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AFL Dyfet That is true Lucky...mostly by volunteers...
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AFL Dyfet I know there has been a lot said about the dealer info already in
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ATB...but
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AFL Dyfet there are other parts :)...
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Tamira haven't seen it
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AFL Dyfet GA Gib...
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A2Evanglst As for shutting people up I don't think that is the issue.
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A2Evanglst True... Some of the dealer Info has some problems but... and I
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will say but.. there are some dealers
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A2Evanglst that are listed that do care about the Apple II. And the guide is
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a good source of Information for
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A2Evanglst people that don't have a knowledgable dealer that is willing to
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give some of the basic
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A2Evanglst information that is needed by the Apple II person.
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A2GS Maybe "shutting people up" was a little harsh....although there is
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PLENTY
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A2GS of other information offered by the guide....DEALER support is by
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FAR the
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A2GS most important thing.
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Lucky24 I critize Apple plenty, but not for publishing a book on, for and
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about the
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Lucky24 Apple II.
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A2Evanglst IMHO the guide was very well done... and I do know of three
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dealers in the Chicago Area that are
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A2Evanglst listed and that DO support the Apple II.
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AFL Dyfet I wonder why it had to be done by volunteers, and not directly by
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Apple,
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AFL Dyfet though.
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A2Evanglst <---- Mine is one of them <grin>
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A2GS Unfortunately....I can say just the opposite about dealers listed
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here in N.Y.
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AFL Dyfet Let's give Matt the floor for a minute...GA Matt...
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Matt DTS First, what exactly was supposedly done by volunteers?
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Matt DTS <ga>
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A2GS The typesetting :)
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Matt DTS Ha ha. I'm serious - what was done by volunteers?
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Tamira the marketing??
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Coach101 I have not had a chance to go through the book yet but,
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Coach101 the mere fact that Apple & Redgate published it was
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Matt DTS Dyfet, you're the one who said "I wonder why it had to be done by
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volunteers and not by Apple" - WHAT?
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AFL Dyfet From what I understand, information and time to produce it mainly
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came from
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AFL Dyfet user groups and people inside Apple who worked in their spare
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time...
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AFL Dyfet GA Gib...
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A2Evanglst Most of the articles were written by volunteers.
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Lucky24 Sometimes this is the best type of information.
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Matt DTS Well, this is a good thing. You want knowledgable people with a
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little time to spare instead of...
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Matt DTS people you hire full-time who haven't been involved before (or
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worse, taking people away from
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Matt DTS engineering or other pursuits!).
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A2Evanglst I would rather have someone with their heart in it than some
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marketing geek who was paid to pay
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A2Evanglst tribute to the Apple II.
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A2GS Yes, but it also has the potential to send people the wrong
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message....
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A2GS that "since Apple people weren't interested in supporting the II,
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it took
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A2GS some volunteers to put together the thing" <--- not my own
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interpretation,
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A2GS just an example.
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Matt DTS Second, about the dealer information:
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Matt DTS The dealer information was compiled like this:
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Matt DTS We put out notices in several places dealers are supposed to pay
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attention, such as the AppleGram
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Matt DTS newsletter, AppleLink mail, and several other places where dealers
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are supposed to look.
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Matt DTS The message, posted in these several places, told dealers that if
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they were committed to selling,
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Matt DTS servicing and supporting the Apple II, send us your dealer
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information for publication in the Guide.
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Matt DTS If a dealer did not respond favorably to this, they were *NOT*
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included. They had to specifically
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Matt DTS state they were Apple II dealers to be included. Now, admittedly,
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we didn't send out a hit squad
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Matt DTS armed with intricate knowledge of low-level ProDOS globals to test
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their knowledge, but...
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Matt DTS we did not list anyone who did not respond favorably.
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AFL Dyfet Okay...that was a reasonable approach, with appearently less
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optimal than
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AFL Dyfet anticipated results...
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A2Evanglst No, as for the guide. IMHO, I believe the guide and the articles
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were meant to be informative.
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A2Evanglst I don't think anyone here would like the guide if it had been put
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together without the valuable help
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A2Evanglst of people like the BCS and several people online. I am glad that
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they round up just anyone to write
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A2Evanglst the articles for the book.
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Lucky24 I have yet to see one. Is this supposed to be bundled with the
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IIGS?
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AFL Dyfet Yes, you are next, actually, Marty :)
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AFL Dyfet GA :)
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AFL Marty I think it's commendable that people volunteered to do this
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work...
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AFL Marty it shows an enthusiasm and degree of support from the
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grass-roots...
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AFL Marty Apple II folks that would be very difficult (if not impossible) to
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duplicate
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AFL Marty with any other group....
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Lucky24 Apple II people tend to be that way
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AFL Marty I wonder how many volunteers would have stepped forward had a
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similar ...
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AFL Marty publication been planned for the Macintosh.
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AFL Marty done
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AFL Dyfet Okay...Jonah, you have the floor now...GA...
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ShanoJ Okay, excuse my ignorance but how did people get this thing and,
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more
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ShanoJ importanly, how do _I_ get a copy. :)
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Coach101 I got my copy in the November Apple Partner's mailing...
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Coach101 Maybe Matt can answer as to how and when other copies will be
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available...
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Matt DTS You should be able to get a copy from your local Apple dealer, II
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or not.
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Matt DTS The Apple part number, for the truly obstinate, is A0243LL/A.
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AFL Dyfet :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay....GA A2....
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A2GS Okay...
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A2GS I'm just curious as to how some of the really anti-II dealers
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ended up getting
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A2GS into the book if only those which at least answered favorably
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ended up in the
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A2GS book.
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AFL Dyfet I think Matt pretty much explained this....GA Matt...
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AFL Scott What does that have to with development, A2??
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Matt DTS We asked dealers to tell us if they were committed to selling,
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servicing and supporting the Apple II.
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Matt DTS If they wrote back and said "we are", then they were included.
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Otherwise they were not. <GA>
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A2GS what about if they said "we are....not"?
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Matt DTS They were not included.
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Matt DTS Actual people who actually read and comprehend English sorted
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through all the replies, listing
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Matt DTS only the ones who responded as we intended. <GA>
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AFL Dyfet I suspect the dealers misunderstood the purpose of the guide....
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A2GS o.k. I just don't think dealers who made it into the book who
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ended up being
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A2GS clear anti-II companies are going to help the II...are more likely
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to hurt it..
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A2GS but I'm not blaming Apple specifically for those dealers who got
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in, Apple
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A2GS can't pay a personal visit to everyone who answered.
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AFL Dyfet Some may have viewed it as a promotional opertunity, a chance to
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get warm
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AFL Dyfet bodies, any bodies, into their stores...
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AFL Marty (But you did criticize Apple for allowing it to be a volunteer
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effort.)
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Matt DTS (May I request we move on to any development questions that may be
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waiting?)
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AFL Dyfet But I think this has been debated enough in ATB already....
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AFL Dyfet Okay, ShrinkIt had the next question, being what changes people
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would like to
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AFL Dyfet see in Finder....GA Matt...
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Matt DTS May I (again, humbly) request that we get to the dev questions
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before the suggestions?
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Matt DTS I know everyone has great Finder ideas and Andy's like a Finder
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Sponge (whatever that is), but I'd
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Matt DTS like to help the programmers first. (don't hurt me, Andy)
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AFL Dyfet Okay Matt...:)
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Lucky24 Shrinkit sponge, you mean
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AFL Dyfet I actually was going to add 'keep it short'...but we can move to
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A2's question
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AFL Dyfet first :)
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HeadCase Finder binder?
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Matt DTS (Is he still there?)
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Coach101 BTW.... Matt & Humility.... On the same line :)
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ShrinkIt No, actually, I was over in Swihart's cube for a moment... but
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please, do go on -- what stuff
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ShrinkIt does everyone want done to the Finder? (within reason, which I'll
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leave up to you)
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AFL Dyfet (We'll get to you, Andy :)
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A2GS Sorry to return to the previous topic...
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A2GS but I would just like to know if Apple themselves are making
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schools aware that
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A2GS this book exists....a young friend of mines school has II's and
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the teacher
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A2GS is a proclaimed II enthusist, yet he was surprised when shown the
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book and
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A2GS admitted never hearing about it.
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A2GS GA
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Matt DTS Education reps can give it to schools, and they can get it from
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dealers just like anyone else.
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Matt DTS However, if you're asking if we're going to drop thousands of
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copies on the NEA convention from a
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Matt DTS helicopter or something like that, I don't think so. Most Apple
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reps should give it to schools with
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Matt DTS large numbers of Apple IIs. <GA>
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Dave Lyons (Why not? Let's propaganda-bomb the NEA.)
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A2GS Nope...how about an ad JUST for the book in an edu-mag like k-12
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A2GS I think that's reasonable.
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Matt DTS I don't know, and I really don't think the development conference
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is the appropriate place
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Matt DTS to discuss it (since none of the people who do know are likely to
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show up). GA.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Scott has the floor now...GA Scott....
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A2GS I agree....but while we're on the topic....
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A2GS never mind
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AFL Scott Ok... Am I correct in this observation: Quickdraw through the
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Print Manager
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AFL Scott only uses palette zero?
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Matt DTS Unless otherwise instructed through printer-driver specific
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instructions, yes.
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Matt DTS (GA)
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AFL Scott Ok... Thanks.
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AFL Scott Done.
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Dave Lyons (Or unless the driver looks at the MasterSCB or other SCBs??)
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Coach101 That was quick....
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Matt DTS Most drivers won't do that, Dave:
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Dave Lyons (OK, cool.)
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AFL Scott I've noted that, too..:) Thanks for the observation, Dave!:)
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Matt DTS Since the normal print loop isn't associated with a given pixel
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map (therefore no SCBs), and even
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Matt DTS PrPixelMap is only a pixel map, with no way to indicate SCBs,
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there's really nothing to do but
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Matt DTS look at the Master SCB, which most printer drivers don't do - they
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use palette zero.
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Matt DTS The IW drivers (old and new) have ways to use different SCBs, but
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you have to work at them.
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Matt DTS (GA)
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AFL Scott Suppose you pass a grafPort to the PrOpenDoc call that specifies a
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different
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AFL Scott palette in the SCB... I tried this last night and it didn't work,
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so you're
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AFL Scott correct, I guess... %)
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Matt DTS Most printer drivers will only use grafPort parameters, not any
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attached pixel maps. In fact,
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Matt DTS those that record pictures for later imaging specifically set the
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portRect to be empty so no
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Matt DTS actual drawing will occur.
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Matt DTS (Now it might work if you do it on PrPicFile, but I don't know for
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sure. It's shaky at best.)
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AFL Scott That doesn't work... just thought I'd let you know.:)
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AFL Scott Done!:)
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Matt DTS Best to use the real ways to do it (with the structure in the old
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driver and the picComment in
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Matt DTS the new driver.)
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AFL Dyfet GA Jonah...
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ShanoJ Matt, quick question: could you point me in the direction of info
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on how to
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ShanoJ make the printer driver use more than one palette per picture? You
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alluded to
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ShanoJ this up above, I think....
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Matt DTS Apple IIgs TN #97, Picture Comments and Printing. It discusses
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the picComments used by the new IW
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Matt DTS and IW LQ drivers, as well as the PostScript (tm) comments used by
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the LaserWriter driver. GA.
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ShanoJ Okay, thanks (I KNEW you'd tell me to read a tech note.... :) GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay....GA Parik, you have the floor now...(poor Andy will miss
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our Finder
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AFL Dyfet comments...)
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AFA Parik when you license a copy of system software (for a product), can
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you dist. the
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AFA Parik system software online? ga
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Matt DTS NO!
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Matt DTS Or Maybe.
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AFL Dyfet GA Coach :)...Maybe?? :)
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Matt DTS It really depends, I believe, on whether or not you're
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distributing your product online.
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Matt DTS If you're getting money from people for the express purpose of
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downloading SSW, then you have to have
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Matt DTS an Electronic License, which costs a little more money (or a LOT
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more if you're doing Mac stuff).
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Matt DTS It's best to ask Software Licensing at Apple such questions,
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because they don't get it wrong. :)
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AFA Parik I have a "stupid" synthlab player, I (or an AMS staff member)
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wants to license
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AFA Parik MidiSynth and distribute the tool to get around the problem.
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AFL Dyfet I have seen several shareware products distributed with GS/OS in a
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packed
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AFL Dyfet bootable disk archive...
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Matt DTS Dyfet, those are not allowed unless the system software is
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licensed, which it often isn't for
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Matt DTS shareware.
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Coach101 Matt, If you have a license to distribute the system sofware with
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your software, and
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Coach101 if you distribute your software electronically, it *might* be that
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you could then also
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Coach101 distribute the system software electronically (solely for use
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Coach101 with the software that you are distributing)...
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Matt DTS Coach: True, but I don't know for certain and it's better to be
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safe than litigated. :)
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Matt DTS You can reach Software Licensing at (408) 974-4667 and they'll
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tell you the Straight Dope.
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AFA Parik zanks. ga
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AFL Dyfet All cases so far seem to be 'minimal' systems with just the
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tools/system files
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AFL Dyfet needed to boot the shareware application in question...
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Coach101 Yeah, but its so much fun to see a lawyer get red in the
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face....
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Matt DTS All of the system's copyrighted, not just the parts you don't need
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to run their applications. :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Scott
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AFL Scott This is for Nuzz....
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AFA Parik so should we all close our eyes?
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Nuzz huh
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AFL Scott I know how many headaches you must have had when you wrote GDL...
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Simple
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AFL Scott printing can be a pain. :)
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Nuzz Keep telling yourself "The Print Manager is my friend"
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AFA Parik darn, I thought you were going to ask him to marry you or
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something.
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AFL Scott No way! I've met him!:)
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AFL Dyfet We can always start a rumor, Parik :)
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Nuzz Scott is always just looking at pictures
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ShanoJ Does that mean advanced printing ISN'T a pain, Scott? :)
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AFL Scott No, that means I don't want to think about advanced printing!:)
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AFA Parik (argh...ariel...they dumped the II...:(((
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AFL Dyfet Hardly a note I would want to close the log on...
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AFL Scott No loss, IMHO... They never sent me 4 issues of 8-16 anyway.
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AFL Scott I got all the disks, never the paper.
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AFA Parik but ross was a neat guy. + Note -- umm... ummm... SSSi is still
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in business!:)
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AFL Dyfet I still prefer paper...call me old fashioned :)
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AFA Parik and of course, we must (allison) subliminally (buy) plug (allison)
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products.
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Coach101 Paper yes... Who has a keyboard and monitor in the John
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anyway?
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AFL Scott Me too... it's easy to find magazines, but all blue splined disks
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look alike
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AFL Scott from the top.
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AFL Scott (Unless you use GDL!)
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AFA Parik Do you prefer paper tnotes or file?
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ShanoJ Ya, I'd like paper too. Especially since I'm going to be writing
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for them. :)
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AFA Parik <-- prefers disk vastly
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ShanoJ It looks more impressive if it's on paper.... :)
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AFA Parik you guys must have HUGE houses!
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Nuzz Wait till you see our new HDL (Hard Drive Labeler)
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AFL Scott Paper... That way I can use the notebook as a lap warmer...:)
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AFL Dyfet I do have a HUGE house :)
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AFL Scott ROTFL!:)
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AFL Scott <--- Has a big mess.
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