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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
Tuesday, December 11, 1990  10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
Topic:  Pascal and C Programming
Forum Leader:  Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)


DanW190    Just so happens that I'm learning Pascal right now..:) Got the
           ORCA/Pascal
DanW190    Learn to Program :)
AFL Dyfet  Tonight our topic is Pascal and C programming.  We
AFL Dyfet  will be discussing Complete Pascal (and their new Direct Connect
           area) as well
AFL Dyfet  as Orca/Pascal, Orca/C and APW C.
AFL Dyfet  And, it seems, Allison and Applefest as well :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, I think our first 'official' question or comment for tonight
           was from
AFL Dyfet  Dan in regards to Orca/Pascal.  How do you like Orca/Pascal so
           far?
AFA Gary J Ooops.  He got bumped (looks like).
AFL Dyfet  (Dan left or bumped...?)
AFA Gary J Must be bumped.
AFL Dyfet  Okay, while we're waiting for Dan to return, does anyone else have
           any C or
AFL Dyfet  Pascal questions for tonight?
AFL Dyfet  Go ahead Windrider...
Windrider5 How much of a difference is there between Orca/C and APWC
Windrider5 Is it worth switching?
AFL Dyfet  Well, first off, Orca/C is ANSI standard....
AFL Dyfet  It also includes code optimization, and generally seems to create
           smaller and
AFL Dyfet  faster executables.
AFL Dyfet  Does anyone else wish to comment on Orca/C vs. APW/C ?
AFA Gary J Also, Orca/C seems to have more support :)
AFA Gary J (As far as updates go, that is)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, it seems Walstib has the next question...GA Wal....
Walstib1   What are the advantages of complete pascal? and is it available?
AFL Dyfet  Complete Pascal is available seperately and as an upgrade for
           existing TML
AFL Dyfet  customers.  I do not recall the details off-hand, but I am sure
           someone in the
AFL Dyfet  Complete DC area will be able to help you get ahold of it :).  As
           to it's
AFL Dyfet  advantages over Orca/Pascal, I have not used Orca/Pascal myself,
           so if somebody
AFL Dyfet  else would wish to share what they have found using both
           packages...
Doctor Why Complete vs ORCA  or TML vs ORCA?
AFL Dyfet  Really Complete vs Orca...
Doctor Why Sorry then. I do have TML and ORCA
AFL Dyfet  Okay, how did you feel about each of those then, Why?
Doctor Why Well, TML Pascal is a stand alone application. Where ORCA Pascal
           can be linked
Doctor Why with modules coded in other languages.
Doctor Why The people that liked the TML Pascal usually liked the speed of
           the compile
Doctor Why and link compared to ORCA. However, the introduction of ZapLink
           has reduced the
Doctor Why difference. For me, I feel that ORCA is more versatile, and fits
           my style.
Doctor Why GA
Walstib1   thanxs. I have one more quick one ok.
AFL Dyfet  Okay Walstib...GA...
Walstib1   I want to make stratego for the gs but can't figure out how to
           write the AI for
Walstib1   the computer player does anyone have any ideas where I can turn
           to. I have most
Walstib1   everthing else planned out but haven't started making any serious
           code for it. 
Walstib1   but this seems to be the hardest hurdle(sp?
Walstib1    ) to get over. 
AFL Dyfet  I know there are a few books out there on general game theory/AI
           programming,
AFL Dyfet  but most are on the theoretical side....
Matt DTS   Look at it this way:  If there was a book called "How to write
           Stratego for the IIgs", it wouldn't
Matt DTS   be nearly as much fun.  :)
Walstib1   No doubt Matt :)
AFA Gary J I think you'd pretty much have to have the computer analyse the
           situation, much
AFA Gary J as if you were there playing the game.  It would have to check
           each player 
AFA Gary J position, etc. and see if a move is possible in that location,
           and if in fact
AFA Gary J it would be a wise move to make.  It depends on how you keep the
           internals of
AFA Gary J your game, so that's about as specific as I can get :)
AFL Dyfet  Much of game theory that I've seen is derived from Chess
           programs...basically,
AFL Dyfet  you use some method to statiscally come up with a number
           representing the 
AFL Dyfet  relative 'merit' of any arrangement of pieces, and then try to
           find arrangement
AFL Dyfet  s which have a higher value than the current situation.
AFL Dyfet  Then again, some of the best 'smart' war games used rnd( a lot
           :)
AFL Dyfet  GA Scott...
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Scott  A few months back there was a nice article on parallelism in Byte.
            I don't know if there is
AFL Scott  a GS application for it as most parallel schemes seem to depend on
           multi processor configurations. GA
Walstib1   my best bet and easiest way to get it rolling would be to start
           out at random
Walstib1   and then as each game piece is exposed and it's value is learned I
           could then 
Walstib1   set up a look up table which would tell the best probablity of the
           game piece
AFL Dyfet  Kinda like card counting :)
Walstib1   being succsefull in it's next move.  
AFL Dyfet  GA Scott...
AFL Scott  Isn't this really complicated by the play in Stratego?  I mean,
           the computer wouldn't
AFL Scott  know (just as in real life) what player piece is which?  Seems to
           me that you would almost have to
AFL Scott  be super flexible in the computers move choices based on known
           play
AFL Scott  patterns, no?
AFL Dyfet  It could assign an average value to the unknown peices based on
           what's left
AFL Dyfet  from what is known.
AFL Scott  Done.. Sorry... it was really a question. :)
Walstib1   yeah it would have to interperate the opposing players files in
           order to capture the flag.  a
Walstib1   but that since when you play now when one of your players hits a
           bomb you 
Walstib1   would think  that the flag is nearby and then could zero in on
           that area of
Walstib1   the board 
Walstib1   like you would normally do when playing
AFA Gary J That is one strategy (but a "smart" player may also recognize a
           decoy :)
Walstib1   afl Dyfet, if I did assign on numbers I think that would take to
           long and eat  
Walstib1   up to much proccessor time.
AFA Gary J GA, Scott
AFL Scott  Perhaps a good program to look at would be Mike Westerfields
           implementation of Reversi. 
AFL Scott  Done.
AFA Gary J Very good suggestion, Scott.
Walstib1   scott that's a good idea I'll look at the code after this I do own
           orca pascal
AFA Gary J (It's even in the languages of topic tonight :)
Walstib1   yeah I'm done too, thanxs alot!
AFA Gary J Ok (you still AFK, Dyfet?)  
AFA Gary J Let's move on to Nuzz's question.  GA, Mike.
Nuzz       I have a memory/tool related question. While working with
           MidiSynth, I noticed
Nuzz       that even after I shut it down and unloaded it, there were a few
           handles still 
Nuzz       active. My question is: Could I do a Disposeall (4023) and could I
           delete the 
Nuzz       id. GA
Nuzz       Matt, Dave? anyone?
AFA Gary J GA, Dave :)
Dave Lyons Good question!  I was just looking at that the other day, and it
           does appear that the
Dave Lyons tool isn't cleaning up after itself properly.
Dave Lyons The problem would be killing handle out from underneath the
           Loader, which expects the handle
Dave Lyons only to be purged and not disposed of (the Code handles, at
           least).
Dave Lyons I may have to get back to you with a real answer on that, once I
           see whether what synthLab is doing
Dave Lyons is a good solution.
Nuzz       Synth lab also has a problem in that after you use Synthlab, a
           LodOneTool call
Nuzz       fails with tool 35
Nuzz       without reboot that is
Dave Lyons Ah--that sounds like a good clue that handles *are* being disposed
           out from under the Loader.
Dave Lyons Not good...I have an idea that I'll have to try out,
Dave Lyons and I'll get back to you.
Nuzz       Ok, just keep in mind that without running Synthlab, you could
           load the tool
Nuzz       all you want without nasty effects
Dave Lyons Yes, I think synthLab is doing a DisposeAll(4023), which isn't
           good--since UnloadOneTool or
Dave Lyons TLShutDown marked the code handles purgable so the Loader can try
           to restart it from memory 
Dave Lyons later.  When the handles actually get disposed and re-used by some
           other Memory Manager client, the
Dave Lyons Restart later thinks some other random data is the TOOL035 code.
Dave Lyons Nuzz, please send your comments in to AIIDTS so they realize
           something's going on, and I'll come
Dave Lyons up with a suitable workaround.
Nuzz       will do Dave. Thanks
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFA Gary J Ok, the question queue is empty!  Any other questions this
           evening?
AFA Gary J GA, Floyd
AFL Floyd  A user has reported a problem with my FileTools CDA and programs
           that have MIDI input.  It seems that
AFL Floyd  with my CDA installed, some of these programs don't work correctly
           or crash.  Can just the fact that
AFL Floyd  a CDA is installed mess up an application?  I mean, could this be
           my fault somehow?
AFL Floyd  ga
AFA Gary J GA, Dave
Dave Lyons Floyd, assuming you don't have any heartbeat tasks,
AFL Floyd  (nope)
Dave Lyons don't trash any memory during your "Shutdown" routine,
Dave Lyons don't patch tools or vectors, and the user hasn't entered your CDA
           yet,
Dave Lyons it doesn't sound like your fault!
Dave Lyons Very possibly the
AFL Floyd  (nope, nope & nope)
Dave Lyons applications that are crashing are sensitive to the placement of
           their segments in memory (their
Dave Lyons fault!), like accidentally assuming two segments are in the same
           bank.  Hard to speculate without
Dave Lyons seeing their code.
Dave Lyons (ga)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Floyd  Okay.  Just as I thought.  Thanks for confirming though. :)
AFA Gary J Floyd, do you know which programs are having problems? 
AFL Floyd  Uh, not off the top of my head. I think one was MasterTracks.  I'm
           not up on computer music stuff. :)
AFA Gary J I have a Midi, but no MasterTracks :)  If it's a program I have,
           I'll be glad 
AFA Gary J to test it out.
AFA Gary J Ok, any other question this evening?
AFL Dyfet  Back...
AFA Gary J (FileTools is GREAT, BTW, Floyd :)
Walstib1   Yeah filetools is excellent just what I needed!
AFL Floyd  Thanks. :)
AFL Dyfet  Okay, do we have any other topics for tonight?
AFL Floyd  Has anyone tested FileTools on a network?
AFL Dyfet  Or maybe I can bring up Command.COM :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Dyfet  GA Marty...
AFL Marty  Has the file format for HyperCard IIGS documents been released
           yet?
Nuzz       Marty, I beleive that it will not be made public
AFL Dyfet  I don't recall it being in the latest filetype technote....
AFL Dyfet  GA Dave...
Dave Lyons It's not out there now, and I don't know whether it's going to be
           or not;
Dave Lyons I do know it has a lot in common with the Macintosh HyperCard
           stack format, which has not been
Dave Lyons published.
AFL Marty  Jim Merritt seemed to indicate at last night's AppleFest chat that
           it was
AFL Marty  available.  Perhaps I misunderstood him.
Dave Lyons However, there is an application
Dave Lyons called HyperMover available from APDA that will convert stacks
           from an intermediate Text format
Dave Lyons into HyperCard IIgs stacks.  (Not sure if it's two-way or not, but
           it's half of the process for
Dave Lyons porting a Macintosh stack to the GS.)
AFL Marty  Can HyperMover HyperMove itself?
Dave Lyons Jim Merritt may know more than I do about the
Dave Lyons situation!
Dave Lyons I -think- the GS half of HyperMover is an application rather than
           a stack; not sure.
Nuzz       Marty, there are 2 HyperMovers. One for Mac, the other for GS
Nuzz       both are stacks
Nuzz       and its a one way conversion
Dave Lyons Of course, if you've got XCMDs in your Mac stack, you need to
           write GS versions of them to port.
AFL Marty  Let me rephrase...
AFL Marty  Can the Macintosh HyperMover be used on itself to create a stack
           which
AFL Marty  is capable of converting Macintosh stacks without requiring one
           to
AFL Marty  own a Macintosh?
Nuzz       LOL Marty.... Don't think so
AFA Gary J I understand the entire reasoning of Marty's question :)
Nuzz       but it will move a copy of itself... Minus xcmds and such
AFL Dyfet  Kinda like Baron Munchauhsan pulling himself up by his own
           suspenders :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Marty  Is there some valid technical reason why a Macintosh is required
           just to 
AFL Marty  convert stacks to HCGS format?
Nuzz       wouldn't that be neat though :)
AFL Dyfet  Yes it would :)
Doctor Why To sell Macs...
AFL Marty  (The operative words there were "valid technical")
Doctor Why :)
Doctor Why To Marketing that might be "valid technical"
AFL Dyfet  I would like to see stack movers to go the other direction...
AFL Dyfet  Some of us who DONT own Macs may also write neat stacks :)
Dave Lyons (I think at least the Mac HyperMover goes both ways; I don't know
           that for sure, though.)
Nuzz       don't think the Mac HyperMover reads GS stacks
AFL Scott  Interesting!  
AFL Scott  Apart from using XCMDs one wonders if there is a way to change the
           text background (so one can
AFL Scott  draw text in color on top of another color).  
Nuzz       I'll tell you one thing. Martys innovativness is typical of an
           Apple II user :)
AFA Gary J Certainly :)
AFL Marty  Re: Scott question... for example.. White text on a black
           background.
AFL Dyfet  GA Marty
AFL Marty  Does someone have an answer to Scott's question?
Nuzz       which machine are you talking about scott
AFL Marty  Talking about HCGS, Mike.
AFL Dyfet  What machine has color in HC, Nuzz ;)
Nuzz       Oh, yea, guess you are Right.
Nuzz       Yes, you can print text over color.
AFL Marty  How?
Nuzz       Not sure if it works in a field though.
AFL Marty  Everything I've tried puts the text against a white background.
Nuzz       The text from the tool menu should do that
AFL Scott  Same here.. Was trying the Text tool to no avail when porting the
           Excellent Stacks. 
AFL Marty  Tried that.  I can't change the background color though.
Nuzz       I'll look at that Marty. Not sure if you have to change the
           backgroung color of
Nuzz       the field
Nuzz       Oh, go to background, then paint the whole thing
AFL Dyfet  :)
AFL Marty  I was hoping for alternate solution :)
AFL Marty  (Like the way HyperStudio handles it)
AFA Gary J :)
Nuzz       I'll try it and get back to you
AFL Marty  Thanks
AFL Dyfet  Excellent stacks Scott??
AFL Scott  Something we did last year...
AFL Scott  For a contest.
AFA Gary J Oh, HyperStudio then.
Nuzz       My stacks all look the same :(
AFL Dyfet  I have that problem too Nuzz :o
AFL Marty  Scott & Marty's Excellent Stacks :)
AFA Gary J They just don't stack up, eh Dyfet?  :)
AFL Marty  ack!
Nuzz       oooh
AFL Dyfet  He's my AFA alright :)
AFA Gary J :)
AFL Marty  You're such a card, Gary :)
AFA Gary J Hahah :)
Nuzz       Welcome to the AII Pun Forum