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507 lines
24 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, January 15, 1991 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Marketing Your Software and Open Topic
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Forum Leader: Gary Jacobson (AFA Gary J)
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AFA Gary J Welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight's topic is
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Marketing Your
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AFA Gary J Software. We'll not use protocol (yet) with this small group
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(unless we get
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AFA Gary J larger and unrowdy :), so if anyone has a question to start out
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this evening,
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AFA Gary J then go for it :)
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AFA Gary J Anyone here have software they NEED to market? :)
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AFA Gary J Many people are going shareware these days.
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AFA Gary J Ok, if nobody has questions on our topic tonight, we can open it
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up to general
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AFA Gary J questions :)
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ShanoJ I have some kinda general questions about marketing software....
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Foreigner1 what's the topic?
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AFA Gary J The topic tonight is Marketing your software.
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AFA Gary J Ok Jonah, GA
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ShanoJ Well, I guess my questions are really about selling to publishing
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companies...
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ShanoJ Is there a 'going rate' for selling programs to publishing
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companies?
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Mac Hater 5-10% royalties
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ShanoJ Even a rough ball-park figure would be nice... I have just about
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no idea now...
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Nuzz Johah, I think that would depend on how broad a base the program
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is aimed at
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Nuzz and how ambitiuos the program is, But 10% sounds about right to
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me
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AFA Gary J GA, Scott
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AFL Scott I really think royalties should be on a case basis and calculated
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on the value the application
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ShanoJ (which means for me about 0%? :)
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AFL Scott brings to the host computer.
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AFL Scott GA
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Gary J Thanks, any other comments?
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Mac Hater the bigger the manufacturer, the smaller cut you'll get.
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AFA Gary J Allright, any other questions? (Marketing, toolbox, BASIC, how
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to turn on the
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AFA Gary J computer, etc )
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Mac Hater I can't figure out how to turn it off. :(
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AFA Gary J :)
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AFA Gary J I have that problem too, Mac Hater :)
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WinkieJim too many variables..:)
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AFA Gary J GA, Foreigner
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Foreigner1 Did the general way to set up icon controls in windows change over
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this summer?
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Foreigner1 I keep getting interesting errors when I use the Toolbox mans
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1&2.
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ShanoJ Do you mean in dialog boxes?
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Foreigner1 No, I mean everwhere.
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AFA Gary J GA, Matt
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Matt DTS Icon button controls are not and never have been discussed in
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Toolbox Reference #1 or #2.
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Matt DTS Those controls are new to 5.0 and are only in Toolbox Reference
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#3.
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Matt DTS Icons, as in QDAux _DrawIcon, have been around virtually forever
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and have not changed. GA.
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Foreigner1 they are in the dialog mananger. Or maybe I have the terminology
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wrong.
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons What toolbox calls are you making and what error codes are you
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getting back?
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Foreigner1 Hang on a sec...
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Dave Lyons (None of this stuff changed for 5.0.3 or 5.0.4.)
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ShanoJ I think they're not supported in dialog boxes (which is what you'd
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be using the
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ShanoJ dialog manager for....)
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Foreigner1 I'm trying to set them up using an itemtemplate.
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Foreigner1 The routine refuses to recognize my icon handles.
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Dave Lyons For what toolbox call? GetNewModalDialog??
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Foreigner1 All the icon stuff that used to be in the dialog.h file has now
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been changed...
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Foreigner1 No, just for setting the itemtemplates up: compiler error.
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Dave Lyons Hmm--could be that the interface file changed. But I know that
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the Dialog Manager itself did not
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Dave Lyons change. What C compiler are you using, and what error do you get
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from the compiler?
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Foreigner1 Orca/c 1.1.
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Foreigner1 The iconitem type is not #def'd anymore.
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Dave Lyons Okay, that's because (see TB Ref volume 3)
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Dave Lyons iconItems in Dialog Manger dialogs are not officially supported
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(it says they never worked
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Dave Lyons at all--in fact, I think they never worked -reliably-).
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Dave Lyons You might consider putting in a userItem instead, and having
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your
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Dave Lyons user item routine just call DrawIcon. This way you can use
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DrawIcon-format icons instead of iconItem
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Dave Lyons format icons, which means you can use up-to-date icon editors or
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whatever to draw them.
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Foreigner1 Alright, let's go about this the other way, how do I put an icon
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in a window
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Foreigner1 that responds to a click? (I need it to set a flag)
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Dave Lyons (If you have a really complex dialog, abandon the Dialog Mgr
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completely!)
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Foreigner1 Not complex. I just want a few icons and some stattext things.
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Dave Lyons The most "obvious" way to put an icon in a window and
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Dave Lyons make it respond to a click is: (1) Draw the icon in the wContDraw
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routine for your window; (2) when
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Dave Lyons your program gets a wInContent event back from TaskMaster, check
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the coordinates to see where they
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Dave Lyons clicked in your window (use SetPort to set the port to your
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window, then GlobalToLocal on the
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Dave Lyons point to get it into the window's coordinates).
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Foreigner1 Okay, I was just hoping for a more graceful way. Thanx again
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Dave. GA
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Dave Lyons (If your window can scroll, use StartDrawing instead of SetPort,
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and use SetOrigin(0,0) when
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Dave Lyons you're through.)
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Dave Lyons Wait, there *is* a more graceful way, in 5.0
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Dave Lyons and later! Use NewControl2 to create an Icon Button control.
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Call TaskMaster with the
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Dave Lyons wContentControl bit set in the task mask, and it will find and
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track controls for you--it will
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Dave Lyons tell you the control ID of the extended control they clicked in
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(see TB Ref 3, Control Manager and
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Dave Lyons Window Manager chapters).
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Foreigner1 Don't have Vol 3 yet- sometime this week! :)
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Dave Lyons (Ack! :) ga
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AFA Gary J :) Ok, WinkieJim had the next question. GA
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WinkieJim Ok, I finaly have a problem on tuesday night! :)
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AFA Gary J oh-oh :)
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WinkieJim Ok, I have this NDA with it's nice window onscreen.
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WinkieJim I then call the Standard File Operations toolkit to put up a
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SFGetFile dialog
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WinkieJim box
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WinkieJim Everything works beautifuly with the dialog, except
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WinkieJim if the first thing I do is hit the down arrow key to scroll
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through the list
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WinkieJim of filenames.
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WinkieJim If I do then the List is drawn in my NDAs window instead of the
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dialog box.
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WinkieJim another keypress and it is drawn in the dialog box as normal.
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons Kawanga! *Sounds* like a Standard File bug, doesn't it? But I've
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never seen that happen
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Dave Lyons before. Do you have to hit the key *before* the dialog gets drawn
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completely, or what?
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Dave Lyons Is it the list's frame, the scroll bar, or some actual items
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inside the list that are getting
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Dave Lyons drawn in your window?
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WinkieJim no, the dialog is drawn on the screen adn I press the down arrow
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key and it
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WinkieJim draws the list in the NDA's window. Any other action does
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everythign normaly
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Dave Lyons The whole list gets drawn in your window, including the frame,
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scroll bar, and some filenames?
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WinkieJim The frame the scroll bar and the first two items in the list
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(first normal
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WinkieJim second highlighted) get drawn in the nda window
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Dave Lyons Nasty. But why just *your* NDA? Has anybody else seen this
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behavior?
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WinkieJim I check out a couple other NDAs that use standard file boxes and
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it doesn't
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WinkieJim seem to do it in them
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Mac Hater do you have any list controls in your nda?
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WinkieJim Nope. It has a menu bar though.
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Dave Lyons Don't see why either of those would cause problems; how 'bout you
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email me a copy of the DA--I'd
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WinkieJim I do have other controls in the window though...
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Dave Lyons really like to see this happen so I can make sure it's not *my*
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bug. :-) *And* of course I want
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Dave Lyons to solve your problem, too.... :) ga
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WinkieJim :)
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AFA Gary J of course :)
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AFA Gary J Anything else, Winkie?
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WinkieJim Nope, that's my big problem...
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AFA Gary J Ok :) The next question goes to Windrider. GA
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Windrider5 How does TaskMasterDA differ from TaskMaster?
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AFA Gary J GA, Dave
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Dave Lyons They're almost identical, and they share most of their code.
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TaskMasterDA does not call
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Dave Lyons GetNextEvent, because you're already passing it a Task Record with
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the Event Record portion filled
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Dave Lyons in (i.e., you're giving it an event that SystemEvent gave to your
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NDA). And TaskMasterDA
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Dave Lyons skips the SystemTask call that calls Run Queue tasks and gives Run
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events to NDAs. ga
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AFA Gary J Does that answer it for you, Windrider?
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Windrider5 Can TaskMaster work in an NDA?
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WinkieJim That's what it's for.
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AFA Gary J Yes, GA Dave
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Dave Lyons (Sorry, was reading mail) Yes, you can use TaskMaster from an NDA
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in *modal* situations
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Dave Lyons only. To be clear: when you get an eventAction, you copy the
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event record to an extended task
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Dave Lyons record and call TaskMasterDA. Completely separate from that, if
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your NDA puts up a window and wants
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Dave Lyons to do modal stuff in there (a modal window on top of your NDA
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window) you should use regular
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Dave Lyons TaskMaster from there (just like, say, ChooseFont does).
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WinkieJim opps, didn't see he left off the DA part.
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WinkieJim <---loves Taskmaster DA
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Dave Lyons Caution: You have to be sure to
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Dave Lyons leave *off* certain Task Mask bits, like tmUpdate, to prevent
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TaskMaster from calling the wContDefProc
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Dave Lyons routines for Application windows. If you allowed it to do that,
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the system could crash, because
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Dave Lyons the App might expect the right ResourceApp to be current (which it
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certainly will not be if your
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Dave Lyons NDA uses resources). This restriction may be lifted in future
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system software. ga
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AFA Gary J Thanks, Dave.
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Windrider5 thanks Dave, that was exactly the info I needed to know.
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AFA Gary J And, that brings us to Jonah's question. GA, Jonah
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ShanoJ Okay, can I ask two completely unrelated questions? No? Oh, guess
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I wasted my
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ShanoJ question then.... :)
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AFA Gary J Ok, Next?
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ShanoJ Seriously though...
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AFA Gary J :)
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ShanoJ This one is for the DTS guys: are custom popup menus 'supported',
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'legal', and
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ShanoJ all of that good stuff? I know they WORK (pretty much), I just
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don't know
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ShanoJ whether they're allowed....
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Matt DTS Well...
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ShanoJ Oh, that reminded me, the pretty much comes from the fact that
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they dont seem
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ShanoJ to call the getMID routine. They call EVERYTHING else, but they
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don't get the
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ShanoJ final ACTUAL ID of the item selected....
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Matt DTS ...they're legal as far as we know, but they don't support
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scrolling (no custom menus do).
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ShanoJ This is easily fixable, though.... (Big grin.... :)
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Matt DTS (Unless Dave knows something I don't. I've never written one.)
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GA.
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Dave Lyons Strange--like Matt said, custom menus can't scroll, but I thought
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they worked okay otherwise. I
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Dave Lyons don't know of any sample code, but at one point there was going to
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be one in 5.0.3 Standard File,
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Dave Lyons and it seemed to work just fine there.
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WinkieJim Pop-up directory pathname?
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ShanoJ Well, I managed to put one in a SF dialog too, and the standard
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popup worked
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ShanoJ fine, but the custom one didn't get the item returned
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(PopUpMenuSelect always
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ShanoJ returned 0).
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Dave Lyons I will have to play with them sometime & see what, if anything, is
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wrong.
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Dave Lyons (No, it was going to be a pop-up volume menu, but it would up with
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the Volumes level instead. A
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Dave Lyons pathname pop-up would be cool, though.)
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ShanoJ Jim: That's EXACTLY what I did.... :)
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ShanoJ If anyone wants it I have almost working wsource that does a SF
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dialog like on
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ShanoJ the Mac with the popup menu...
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ShanoJ It still needs a little bit of tweaking, but it's pretty good...
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WinkieJim No thanks I had enough problems adding one button to a SF dialog
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:)
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AFA Gary J :)
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Matt DTS Using Standard File, Jonah?
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ShanoJ Well then Jim, watch for my article in 8/16-Central on how to do
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this stuff!!:)
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ShanoJ Matt: Ya, SFPxxxx
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WinkieJim Sure, now that I'm done :)
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Matt DTS I realize such things are cool and necessary but I'd just as soon
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people left the major parts of the
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Matt DTS human interface in Standard File to us. If we majorly wacko make
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it better, people using custom
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Matt DTS dialogs don't get the benefit of it.
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Dave Lyons ShanoJ, did you put little icons next to your items, or what?
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(That's why it had to be custom?)
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ShanoJ Dave and Matt: if you want some sample code that (I think) proves
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that the
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ShanoJ custom popups don't work, I'll send it to you...
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Dave Lyons (Unclear--in many cases people using custom SFP templates *do* get
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the benefit of revved
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Dave Lyons standard file versions.)
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ShanoJ I know, Matt... I mainly wrote it to see if it'd be done--I don't
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think I'll
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ShanoJ ever use it in a program...
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ShanoJ Dave: Ya, I wrote a menu proc that put a little icon next to each
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item...
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ShanoJ Scott says I should tell you I also did nested menus, too, while I
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was at it...
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ShanoJ There, however, you're out of luck as I _DO_ plan to use them in a
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program...
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A2GS Nested menus?
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Matt DTS Hierarchicals. Ack.
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ShanoJ Albert: Ya, like on the Mac, with the litte |> to the side...
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WinkieJim Shano, that sound like a lot of fub :)
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WinkieJim fub=fun
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AFA Gary J fub too :)
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ShanoJ No, you were right the first time. It was a lot of fub... :)
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Foreigner1 :)
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Matt DTS (Had the Volumes pop-up gone in 5.0.3, it was not going to appear
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in SFPxxxx dialogs. Only in the
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Matt DTS standard ones. We had no way of knowing whether developers wanted
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the standard behavior or whether
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Matt DTS they really wanted a "disk" button, so SFPxxxx calls were left
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alone.)
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Nuzz I like the disk button
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ShanoJ Ugg! I love the volumes button... I even wrote a fake SF call
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that's I named
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ShanoJ SFVoulmes that JUST does what the volumes button does....
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WinkieJim I'm glad you kept the tab key going to the next volume
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A2GS I thought DTS decided against doing hierarchicals for the GS
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because they
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A2GS turned out to be more of a headache then an improvement.
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ShanoJ With 8 volumes on line, that disk button is a killer.... :)
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WinkieJim Platinum paint could use hierarchicals...:)
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Nuzz I meant Volume Button
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Matt DTS Some programs (like Platinum Paint) could benefit from
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hierarchicals. However...
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Matt DTS Apple's experience has been that most uses of hierarchical menus
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simply make the menu organization
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Matt DTS more efficient for the programmer and a lot harder for the user
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(case in point: Microsoft PowerPoint).
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ShanoJ I agree that they're a bad interface design....
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Matt DTS Lots of people use hierarchical menus just to make their
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ill-organized applications fit in the menu
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Matt DTS bar instead of reorganizing the application to work better.
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That's why we're in no hurry to see them
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Matt DTS as part of the IIgs Menu Manager.
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WinkieJim I saw a ad there they showed off about 4-5 nested menus :)
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ShanoJ I only wrote them because I wanted the GS to be able to do what
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the Mac
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ShanoJ could.... :)
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Dave Lyons (DTS does not write the system software, but they don't like
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hierarchical menus very much; neither
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Dave Lyons do I, because they're kinda clumsy & easy to abuse badly.)
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AFA Gary J They are kind of a pain sometimes.
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AFA Gary J Winkie, did you have a question still?
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WinkieJim yes
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AFA Gary J GA, then :)
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WinkieJim How many of you would:
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ShanoJ I would!
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WinkieJim a) like to read an article on creating custom extended controls
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WinkieJim b) Be interested in a custom control that could display a bar
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(like the
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WinkieJim boot status bar) with only a few calls?
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WinkieJim ga?
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Foreigner1 Sounds interesting.
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ShanoJ I would... Then again, I'm also writing an article like that, so I
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guess I
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ShanoJ should probably vote against yours.... :)
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Nuzz I'd like to see it too
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WinkieJim 8/16 most probably...
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WinkieJim Author would be me
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AFA Gary J Oh, then Ok! :)
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ShanoJ ...except I'm not doing thermometer controls, though.
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WinkieJim Good :)
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Mac Hater how many would like to see... an article on emulating a macintosh
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with a IIgsa
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Mac Hater and paperclip?
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AFA Gary J :) Where, in the funny section? :)
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AFA Gary J (cartoons, that is :)
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WinkieJim Mac, why I did that a year ago...old stuff...
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ShanoJ I got two more questions....
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AFA Gary J Ok, GA Jonah
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ShanoJ 1) Is there ANY way to know when a GS/OS call is made, short of
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patching the
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ShanoJ dispatch vectors? This is the only thing stopping my SF menus from
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working
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ShanoJ PERFECTLY.... :(
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ShanoJ and while I'm at it....
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ShanoJ 2) Does anyone know how the new SSSi editor compares to MAX/Edit
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and the
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ShanoJ standard ORCA editor?
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ShanoJ Oh, in case it matters I'm only looking for SetPrefix calls in
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#1
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Nuzz SSSI has a demo of Edit 16 in the library
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AFA Gary J GA, Winkie
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WinkieJim Shano, I;ve used a little trick to see if Prefixes have
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changed...
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Dave Lyons ShanoJ, why does your SF menu need to kow when a GS/OS call is
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made??
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ShanoJ Dave: It has to update the menu in the SF dialog....
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WinkieJim What I do is make a small output buffer (4-6 bytes long) and
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WinkieJim do a SetPrefix call for the 0-31 preifxes and add up the
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lengths...
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WinkieJim if the value changes from the last time I checked, the prefixes
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have changed...
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WinkieJim (not totaly reliable if the prefix length doesn't change
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though...)
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Dave Lyons And if I changed prefix 0 from :H1:Food to :H1:Beef, you don't
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notice that it changed??
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ShanoJ Jim: I see what you're saying, but it won't work in this
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instance... My code
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ShanoJ only gets control when a button is hit (or I interrupt the SF
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toolset some
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ShanoJ other way)... See the problem?
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WinkieJim Right...nothings perfext
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WinkieJim (including my spelling)
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Dave Lyons Maybe I'm missing something, guys, but why don't you just get the
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prefix you want and compare it
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Dave Lyons against what it used to be??
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Dave Lyons (WJ, I don't agree! A lot of things are pefect in the appropriate
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context. :-)
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WinkieJim Dave, think of the memory needed to store 32 prefixes that can be
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$2000 long :)
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Dave Lyons WJ, the memory needed is exactly 32*4 bytes longer than the
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*actual* size of the prefixes (prefixi?).
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A2GS prefixis
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Dave Lyons ShanoJ, where is your menu again? Why can't you check it right
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before you pull it down?
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WinkieJim Previa? :)
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Dave Lyons Eh?
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A2GS previece
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ShanoJ It's on top of the list in a SF dialog... It won't work to check
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right before
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ShanoJ it's poped (although I do that, too) because the following might
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happen:
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ShanoJ Use opens SF dialog, pop up menu is set properly. Then double
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clicks a folder.
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ShanoJ The folder is opened, and the name shown in the popup should be
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changed. I get
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ShanoJ an itemHit call when the list is hit, but this is BEFORE the
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prefix is changed.
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ShanoJ So, I either need to have some way to be called AGAIN, after the
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prefix is
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ShanoJ changed, or to be called WHEN the prefix is changed....
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Dave Lyons Are you doing this for SFPxxx calls, or just SFxxx calls?
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ShanoJ SFPxxx calls only (couldn't put it in the SF dialog....)
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WinkieJim Shano, can't you put a RunQ task in that checks if the prefix
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changed and
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WinkieJim update the popup?
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ShanoJ There's a thought....
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Dave Lyons So why don't you override the standard Path item, and update it
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whenever your filter proc gets
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Dave Lyons called? Or doesn't it get called at all when they double-click a
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folder?
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Dave Lyons (wait, I haven't read everything you said)
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ShanoJ Well, it does get called when the thing is double clicked, but
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that's before
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ShanoJ the path has changed... What do you mean by 'override the standard
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path item'?
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Dave Lyons I guess you're already overriding it--I meant putting in your own
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code to replace the
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Dave Lyons standard Path Item drawing the pathname above the list.
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Dave Lyons (That doesn't solve the problem, since it's not changing the
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prefix at the most convenient
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Dave Lyons time for you. There may be no clean way to do it at present.)
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WinkieJim Shano, Dave did have another idea, put the check for prefix
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changing in your
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WinkieJim filetype filter proc...
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ShanoJ Jim: thought of that. It won't work for SFPPutFile2, because there
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IS no filter
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ShanoJ proc...
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WinkieJim ahhh Put...
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ShanoJ I think the RunQ is the best idea so far....
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ShanoJ Though that's a bit on the kludgy side....
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AFA Gary J I have a question (I probably should have asked earlier)
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AFA Gary J Anyone know of any "super macro" macros available for ORCA/M,
|
|
like the ones
|
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AFA Gary J used in Merlin 16+?
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ShanoJ How hard would it be to convert Merlin's to APW format?
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|
AFA Gary J I dunno, never really looked at them. I have a friend who's
|
|
trying to convert to ORCA/M.
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|
WinkieJim Somewhat tricky...about the same as converting Merlin source to
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|
APW
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ShanoJ I just got Merlin (thanks, Marty!!), so I don't know enough about
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|
it to know...
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|
AFA Gary J :)
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WinkieJim <---merlin Maniac, I love my super macros...only
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|
WinkieJim wish they'd update them for 5.0 already
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|
AFA Gary J Do you use Merlin all the time, Winkie? Have you had any
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|
problems doing
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|
AFA Gary J resources, and that sort of thing with Merlin?
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|
WinkieJim It's all I use.
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|
WinkieJim Not really I do all my resource creation and editing in Genesys
|
|
and
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|
WinkieJim Merlin save the final object fine just to the data fork, leaving
|
|
the resource
|
|
WinkieJim fork ok.
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|
ShanoJ Ya, anyone know about Merlin supporting resources eventually?
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|
WinkieJim Shano, supposilly the next update will have resource stuff in it
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|
WinkieJim Brendon does tend to go off on his own course.
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|
AFA Gary J I have Merlin 16, but never upgraded to 16+.
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|
AFA Gary J (I used to use Merlin all the time, for 8-bit stuff)
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|
ShanoJ Is it just me, or is much of the Merlin interface backwards? It
|
|
seems that he
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|
ShanoJ likes to use 'Esc' to confirm and 'Return' to cancel.... :(
|
|
ShanoJ "No Jonah, just you're backwards.... " :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Well, I thought I saw a 3rd party someplace that had super-macros
|
|
for ORCA, but
|
|
AFA Gary J I could be wrong.
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|
WinkieJim BTw, for a sample of weather resources can be acieved using Merlin
|
|
16+ and
|
|
WinkieJim Genesys just check out Super info II
|
|
AFA Gary J Yes, I thought you were heavily into resources, that's why I
|
|
asked :)
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|
ShanoJ It is nice and fast though.... But with my new Zip, so is APW....
|
|
:)
|
|
AFA Gary J What's your speed, Jonah?
|
|
A2GS Yes....but Merlin is still faster :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Merlin is fast, that's for sure.
|
|
AFA Gary J Zip Chip GS?
|
|
WinkieJim I might have a problem doing Cdevs if I ever get a chance to try
|
|
my hand at
|
|
WinkieJim them though...I have no way of making Code resources with Merlin
|
|
ShanoJ 8 Mhz on the Zip... Anyone know now to upgrade to 12?!
|
|
WinkieJim <---zip is at Zip getting updated for my RamFast
|
|
A2GS get a 12 Mhz 65816 maybe? :-)
|
|
AFA Gary J I'd settle for 10 Mhz.
|
|
A2GS I'd settle for 20
|
|
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