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528 lines
25 KiB
Plaintext
America Online
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APPLE II DEVELOPMENT FORUM CONFERENCE LOG
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Tuesday, February 5, 1991 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time
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Topic: Special Guest Jay Jennings from 8/16 Journal
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Forum Leader: Dave Sugar (AFL Dyfet)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, I guess we can get started....good evening everyone and
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AFL Dyfet welcome to the Apple II Development Forum. Tonight we will be
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AFL Dyfet discussing technical publications, and our guest will be Jay
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Jennings
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AFL Dyfet from the 8/16 Journal. We will be using protocol tonight, so
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AFL Dyfet please bare with us. I would now like to give Jay a chance to
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AFL Dyfet introduce himself and tell us about 8/16. Go ahead Jay, you
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have
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AFL Dyfet the floor now....
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JJennings Thanks. I'll make it short and sweet (kind of)...
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JJennings I've been programming computers for about six years and working
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for A2-Central for a little over a...
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JJennings ...year. Last fall we had a chance to acquire 8/16 from Ariel
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Publishing. After a little...
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JJennings ...discussion we decided to go for it. My job changed and now I
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have no more free time. :) ...
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JJennings 8/16-Central is a disk-based publicatin that's dedicated to
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serving Apple II programmers...
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JJennings ...and developers. We publish articles, source code, utilities,
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and anything else of...
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JJennings ...interest to the people programming the Apple II.
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JJennings Umm...what else would you like to know? :)
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AFL Dyfet I guess that was an opening for a question :)...GA Marty :)
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AFL Marty Why did you decide to use HyperStudio as the means of
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distribution?
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AFL Marty (I didn't phrase that right... make the right question out of it
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and
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AFL Marty answer it. :)
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JJennings Because text files on a disk are BORING and UGLY and NO FUN. With
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a cool front-end, on the..
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JJennings ...other hand, we can have something that at least _appears_ to be
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a magazine. I started out...
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JJennings ...writing a front-end fro scratch. Then realized (thank God!)
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that HS would do almost...
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JJennings ...everything I wanted it to. Yes, it's only good for the 16-bit
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people, but...
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JJennings ...we're working on an 8-bit front-end, too. ga
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AFL Dyfet Ga Marty :)
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AFL Marty Who writes your articles? Are you looking for more authors?
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JJennings Everybody, and yes. I try to write one every once in a while so I
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don't go over budget (yes, we
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JJennings pay for submissions), but most articles are from outseide
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authors.
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JJennings Oh, wait...
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JJennings I have a backlog of IIgs stuff right now. I have enough articles
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for the next few issues...
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JJennings ...except for 8-bit stuff. Nobody wants to write it anymore! :(
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AFL Dyfet Okay, ga now Winkie :)
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WinkieJim The last issue of 8/16 had the 8-bit front end on it...
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WinkieJim GA That's my comment...
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JJennings Lemme respond to the comment...
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WinkieJim (of course it crashed on my GS :) :)
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JJennings That's an interim front-end. I'm looking for one that acts like
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HS. A dedicated 8/16 front-end. GA
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WinkieJim ah...
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JJennings (You must have a weird GS. Karl Bunker doesn't write stuff that
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crashes! :)
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WinkieJim It was a neat crash...very fun to watch :)
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WinkieJim ga
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Windrider has the next question...Go ahead Wind...
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Windrider5 What is the ratio of 8 to 16 in terms of coverage and readership
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interest?
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JJennings Darn good question! Darn good. And the answer is...
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JJennings ...I dunno.
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JJennings (more...)
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JJennings The articles are running about 70/30 in each issue (in favor of GS
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stuff) simply because...
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JJennings ...all the new stuff (mostly) is happening on the IIgs. We have 2
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GS articles and 2 8-bit...
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JJennings ...articles per issue. But HyperLab is only for the IIgs, most of
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the letters are about the IIgs,...
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JJennings ...the Online columns are mainly GS stuff. Because that's what
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people are talking about.
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JJennings But I'm trying to put more 8-bit stuff on there. It seems like it
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gets harder every month to find it..
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JJennings ...though.
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JJennings As far as the subscribers go, we're doing a survey in April and
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we'll see what comes of that. GA
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JJennings (See what the ratio of 8 to 16-bit people is, I mean. GA)
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ShanoJ <-- 16 bit person... :)
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AFL Dyfet Hmm...that would be an interesting survey :)....Okay, would anyone
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else wish
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A2Evanglst <--- 2 bit person ;)
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AFL Dyfet to ask our guest a question?
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AFL Marty What kind of 8-bit articles are you looking for? Maybe someone
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reading the
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AFL Marty transcript will submit something if they have something specific
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to aim at.
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AFL Marty GA
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AFL Dyfet Maybe, Marty ;)
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JJennings Gee, thanks, Marty. Back when I was a freelance programmer I could
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never think of...
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JJennings ...what to write. Now that I'm an editor people are asking and I'm
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supposed to know! :) ...
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AFL Marty Yeah but you get the big bucks now. :)
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JJennings I don't have anything specific in mind. Basically, all the
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articles we run should have something...
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JJennings ...in common. That is, they should explain a programming
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technique, show how to do something...
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JJennings ...that maybe a little tricky, etc. If you write programs you
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probably butt heads with problems...
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JJennings ...all the time. When you come up with a creative solution, write
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an article about it! ...
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JJennings There are probably others out there running into the same problems
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and if you can help them get...
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JJennings ...over the hump, we all benefit with better software. GA
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JJennings Big bucks? Hahahahahah! Good one! :-P
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AFL Marty Thanks... done.
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ShanoJ Make sure you ask DTS about your 'creative solutions' before you
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write the
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ShanoJ article... They never seem to like mine... :)
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ShanoJ Guess I'm just too creative... :)
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JJennings Well...I've been yelled at by DTS before - and I'm sure it'll
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happen in the future. Send them...
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JJennings ...anyway and we'll chance it. :) GA
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AFA Gary J Controversy sells :)
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AFL Dyfet Okay, do we have any more questions for Jay while we have him here
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tonight?
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AFL SandyB If it isn't confidential information, how much DO you pay for an
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article...
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AFL SandyB (Marty, he sweeps his carpeting cause he doesn't have a vacuum, he
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doesn't
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AFL SandyB get paid enough yet, :)) GA
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JJennings Hey, no secrets!
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AFL SandyB :)
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AFL Marty (what's carpeting? :)
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AFL SandyB LOLOL
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JJennings We pay anywhere from $50 to $100 for an article. Most go for about
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$75. No, you won't...
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JJennings ...get rich, but yo'll be famous and chicks will _swarm_ over
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you!!! (yeah, I'm still...
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JJennings ...waiting for that one to happen, too). GA
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AFL Marty chicks?? :)
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AFL Dyfet GA Sandy...
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AFL SandyB If you lived here I'm sure our local APPLE // user group would
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love to have
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AFL SandyB you come in and show what 8/16 is and how you put one
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together...if 8 bit
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AFL SandyB programmers are difficult to find (and I'm sure they're out there)
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why
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AFL SandyB don't you all get the User Group list and send out a call for
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those
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AFL SandyB programming in 8 bit?
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JJennings Local UG list? The chances of finding 8-bit programmers in KC are
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a bit slim...
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JJennings ...but it's a thought. Hmmm...a UG demo. Cool idea. :) GA
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AFL SandyB No, I meant get Apple's user group list
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AFL SandyB and send out something saying what 8/16 is and why programmers
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are
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AFL SandyB essential to its success...
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JJennings Okay, Apple also has a developer list. But they want MUCHO bucks
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for it I think. And we're...
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JJennings ...still small potatoes. But again, that's a good idea. I might
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throw that past Tom W.
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JJennings Yeah...
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AFL SandyB Apple's off the mark if they don't kiss the ground A2 walks on,
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:).
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JJennings ...we haven't done ANY marketing of 8/16-Central yet, and when we
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do we'll include a call for...
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JJennings ...articles. GA
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AFA Gary J Just curious, but what distinguishes a $100 article from a $50
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one?
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AFL Marty $50 :)
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JJennings Hehehh!
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AFL SandyB Hahahaha
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AFA Gary J Marty :)
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JJennings It depends on whether you send me any cookies along with the
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article.
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AFA Gary J (I should have known that would come from you :)
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Apple24evr Yeah... I was wondering, also...
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AFA Gary J Is it word count? Or..
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AFA Gary J technical expertise? Or what?
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JJennings That, and it depends on the length and complexity of it. If I
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could crank out a similar...
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JJennings ...article in a couple hours, it'll go to the lower end. But if I
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look at it and say, "Kewl!", than...
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JJennings ...it goes to the higher end. GA
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AFA Gary J Ok, thanks :)
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A2GS What kind of articles are you looking for?
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JJennings In the last couple issues we've done stuff on 3200 color pics,
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custom controls (March issue - that...
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JJennings ...was done today), SFGet in C, menus and windows in 8-bit, etc.
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That's typical of what we're...
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JJennings ...looking for.
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JJennings It doesn't have to be a big application or utility. Just a good
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explanation of something that might...
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JJennings ...confuse the average programmer. Like an explanation of how to
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use CopyPixels (coming...
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JJennings ...in the March issue). GA
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A2GS What kind of 3200 color stuff did you already discuss....I've got
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a couple
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A2GS of things that I might be able to add.
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JJennings Basically a way to display 3200 color pics. Source code, a
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linkable routine, and an explanation of...
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JJennings ...what's happening in the program. That's what we ran. I'd be
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interested in associated subjects.
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AFL Dyfet Go ahead Sandy....
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AFL SandyB There's a pirate board around where 8/16 issues are up with the
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biggest and
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AFL SandyB the best of all A2 software. Is that flattering or does that make
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you angry?
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JJennings Officially or unofficially? :)
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AFL SandyB That's enough answer, :).
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JJennings No, I have another answer...
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JJennings ...no, I guess I don't. I'll get in trouble. :) GA
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AFL Dyfet That's okay Jay :)
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JJennings Answer: Don't pirate it! If you can't pay for it, tell me and
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we'll make a deal with you. GA
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AFL Marty (Was it something like "pirates suck pond scum"?)
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AFA Gary J 15 cents per copy? :)
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AFA Gary J (or whatever the Open-Apple deal used to be :)
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JJennings (Not quite, Gary. Good try. :)
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Barbarian6 So what is the topic tonight?
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AFL Dyfet Technical Publications, Barbarian, and Jay Jennings, from 8/16
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Journal is our
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AFL Dyfet guest tonight....
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A2GS Barbarian?
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Barbarian6 yes
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A2GS oh...Barbarian :-) (not the game??)
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AFL Dyfet GO Sandy
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AFL SandyB If A2 Central is the umbrella technical Apple // publication/
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AFL SandyB organization in the country/world, how come we don't see A2's
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presence
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AFL SandyB more on America Online? Is A2's profit in GEnie?
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JJennings Ooooh!
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Apple24evr Hehe
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JWankerl I'd like to point out that GS+ also publishes tech info - 8/16
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isn't alone.
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ShanoJ (and GS+ is in paper, too... <poke, poke> :)
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JJennings Okay, here goes...
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JJennings ...as the A2 Round Table "big wigs", we have a free account on
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GEnie. We don't have to worry...
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JJennings ...about racking up Tom's VISA card (he yelled at me last month
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for my online time!)...
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JWankerl ShanoJ: Paper AND disk. They compliment each other.
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JJennings ...but we are here now, and will stay. Just not as visible as on
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GEnie...which kind of makes...
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JJennings ...sense, if you think about it. :) GA
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JJennings Yeah, paper's cool.
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Mac Hater why can't you get a IC account like Incider.
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JJennings Free advertising: Subscribe to GS+.
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JJennings sniff whine. Because I don't know how, Mac Hater. :) Besides...
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JJennings ...I almost live online as it is. I don't know if I could take
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anymore at this point. :) GA
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A2GS What the advantage of having an IC account (what is it anyways?)
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Mac Hater Free hours. :-) Its the Industry Connection
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(Broderbund,AE,etc,etc)
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Mac Hater Ross setup a IC for his Mac thingie
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JJennings We haven't looked into that yet. I don't know if it's a
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possibility or not to tell you the truth.
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AFL Dyfet Okay. go ahead, Apple24evr....
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Apple24evr Thanks... what's the difference in $$$ between an article with a
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program and without? GA
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JJennings You get almost diddly for an article without source and a program.
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Unless you're real special...
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JJennings ...and send me some cookies.
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AFL Dyfet Probably chocolate chip or you get nothing :)
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AFA Gary J (silicon cookies?)
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Apple24evr Cookies, huh? What kind, specifically? GA
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AFL Marty (ahem... I have a copyright on the term "diddly" :)
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AFA Gary J LOL!
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JJennings We don't - for the most part - run articles without source code.
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That's what's cool about a...
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JJennings ...disk-based publication. We can have teh source and executable
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file right there for you to play...
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JJennings ...with. GA
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JJennings I'm partial to ginger cookies - if they're soft. Chocolate chip
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are cool, too. GA
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AFL Dyfet No mess with mistyped listing or software that wasn't really
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debugged before
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AFL Dyfet publication :)...
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Apple24evr Ok---almost done...
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A2GS No offense...I prefered the old paper issues :(
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JJennings Ginger cookies with cold milk (but you dont have to send the
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milk...I'll supply that).
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JJennings Me, too. No, that's not true...
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JJennings ...I used to miss the paper version. After four issues I like the
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disk version better. ...
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JJennings ...But then, I am a tad biased.
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Apple24evr What if the article really doesn't have a program that could go
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with it? Or, if the demo
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Apple24evr program would have to be too big to fit on the disk? GA
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A2GS could you send me 4 issues to try and persuade me :_)
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A2GS errr :-)
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Apple24evr (I'm done harassing Jay after that last one, BTW)
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JJennings Um...like I said, for the _most_ part we don't do articles without
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programs. There can, and are,...
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JJennings ...exceptions. GA
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Mac has the next question...GA Mac...
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Mac Hater psuedo-off topic, but I don't mind. How are the plans for KFest
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going? Have
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Mac Hater you fleshed out any details on participating in a whatchamaclit
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(i'm tired...
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Mac Hater the thing where you tell people about things...argh) *zzz* ga
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AFA Gary J :)
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JJennings A session? :)
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Mac Hater thats it
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JJennings Okay...
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JJennings We're looking for proposals at this time. There's info on
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KansasFest in the March issues of...
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JJennings ...A2-Central and 8/16-Central. I'll also be posting that info
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here very soon - maybe later...
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JJennings ...tonight after I get home. Apple will be there again, and we're
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expanding it from...
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JJennings ...two days to six days.
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Apple24evr Wow!
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Mac Hater SIX? WOW
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Mac Hater Does that include college?
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AFL Dyfet SIX!! Excellant!
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Apple24evr And half the price, right??
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JJennings First two days, GS college, Pascal college, or C college. Next two
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days, regular KansasFest,...
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AFA Gary J :)
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JJennings ...last two days, Apple Central Expo - and AppleFest-type exhibit
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fair sponsored by...
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JJennings ...Apple Midwestern Region. GA
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JWankerl What's the # to call for KFest? I lost the scrap I had it on...
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something 6502
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JJennings 913-469-6502.
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JWankerl Thanx.
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A2GS 6 Days????? No offense...but where are you going to get all the
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material to
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A2GS fill those days....is there enough material to begin with??
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JJennings Tom - we only have to fill two days. The colleges take up the
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first two, and ACE takes up the last 2.
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Mac Hater could you repost the dates please?
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JJennings Yeah, July 16-21, 1991 in Beautiful Kansas City.
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Mac Hater Overland Park, in the middle of nowhere, you mean ;)
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Apple24evr Glorious Kansas City...
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AFL SandyB Right, Mac Hater, exactly.
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JJennings You could also fax a request for info at 913-469-6507. We like
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faxes.
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AFA Gary J 6507? (Must be a new processor)
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AFL SandyB Gary, veiled things like that are what start rumors, right? It's a
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new
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AFL SandyB processor for the ][+, LOL.
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Apple24evr (LOL Gary!)
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JJennings OPKS - The town that never sleeps.
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JWankerl Man, I drove thru Kansas for XMas break - I saw a sign - McD's 100
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miles! ARGH!
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AFL SandyB LOL
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AFL Dyfet I spent a week driving through Kansas one day :)
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Nuzz I missed that ACE reference. What is ACE
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JJennings Apple Central Expo = ACE. We couldn't use the name AppleFest so we
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made up our own name. :)
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AFA Gary J Is that the central U.S. version of Apple Fiesta?
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JJennings Kind of the central version of Apple Fiesta (I guess). :)
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ShanoJ I have a completely unrelated ?, for the Apple guys, when you're
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ready...
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JWankerl Me too.
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AFL Dyfet Okay, Jonah, I guess now is as good a time as any :)....Go
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ahead...
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ShanoJ Okay, I have this routine where I call MarkResourceChange and
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then
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ShanoJ WriteResourec on a resource. If I get a locked error on the Write,
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I open an
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ShanoJ alert and tell the user to unprotect the disk. If they eject the
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disk and then
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ShanoJ stick it back in, WITHOUT unlocking it, and I make the
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WriteResource call
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ShanoJ again, I DON'T get a lockedDisk error, but the resource ISN'T
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written. Then,
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ShanoJ WEIRD things start happening after I quit the program (I get file
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still open
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ShanoJ errors, etc.) What to do?
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AFL Dyfet GA Matt...
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Matt DTS Are you checking for errors other than "locked error"?
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ShanoJ Yuppers. I don't get ANY errors--carry is clear on the second
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WriteResource. :(
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Matt DTS (Which I assume is $2B, write protected [correct] and not $4E,
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invalid access [incorrect])
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Matt DTS What kind of device is it?
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ShanoJ It's a Apple 3.5" disk. (And ya, it was a $2B that I was talking
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about.)
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Matt DTS (Apple 3.5 Drive, you mean?) Hmmm...
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ShanoJ I know the resource manager has a NotifyProc set up for disk
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ejects. Is it
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ShanoJ possibly closing the resource file or some such?
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Matt DTS A call made to an open file while the disk is offline should
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return $2E (disk switched), but
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Matt DTS it shouldn't return errors after you've inserted it.
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Matt DTS (The notify proc is only called after the fact - not before the
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disk is ejected.)
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ShanoJ But that's the problem--it's NOT! :(
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Dave Lyons Jonah, are you sure that notify proc is for ejects? I thought it
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was just for GS/OS<-->P8 switches.
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ShanoJ Hmm... I'll go check...
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ShanoJ Err, scratch that... I'm using the P8 version... :(
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ShanoJ (of AOL, that is)
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Matt DTS I can't think of anything that would cause it. Mybe you're doing
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something else wrong. :)
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ShanoJ That's likely, Matt, but I sure can't figure out what it is. The
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sequence of
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ShanoJ calls is
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MarkResourceChange/WriteResource/AlertWindow/WriteResource. It
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should
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ShanoJ loop on the last two, but I'm not getting an error on the Write...
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:(
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Matt DTS Well, hold on...
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JWankerl NotifyProc is for os switches, disk insert eject, volume change,
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and shutdown.
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ShanoJ (thanks, Joe.)
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Dave Lyons Joe, in the case of the Resource Manager's notify proc, there only
|
|
seem to be 3 bits set in the
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Matt DTS It does sound like the info is succesfully being written through
|
|
GS/OS but GS/OS is unable to flush
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|
Matt DTS the file when it's time to update the stuff.
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|
Dave Lyons flags word--it doesn't take all the event types.
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Matt DTS Can you use GSBug to set OS breaks on WriteGS to see what's
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|
happening? (and maybe on CloseGS?)
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|
ShanoJ Well, the last time I used a OS break I got majorly messed up (I
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|
went into GS
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ShanoJ Bug, but I was in bank $3B or some such... :( ) I can try again,
|
|
though...
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JWankerl I use OS breaks fairly regularly - they work for me well enough.
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Matt DTS Otherwise, I have no other ideas. Sorry. GA.
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|
ShanoJ Okay, thanks anyway. I'll play with it some more....
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AFL Dyfet GO II4ever :)
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Apple24evr Just wanted to say, the cookies and milk go in an envelope
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tomorrow, Jay. Thanks for coming online.
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AFA Gary J (I feel very sorry for the postal service at this point)
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JJennings You're welcome. I'll be looking forward to the envelope full of
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|
milk. :)
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JWankerl I wanna know what's the "official method" to patch into GS/OS and
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|
trap calls,
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JWankerl especially the Quit call so I can write some type of shell to
|
|
launch EXE files.
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|
JWankerl GA
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ShanoJ Good question!!
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|
AFL Dyfet GA Matt
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|
Matt DTS The "official" method for patching the tool dispatcher
|
|
Matt DTS is outlined in IIgs TN #87. I don't know engineering's thoughts
|
|
on recommending that method
|
|
Matt DTS for the GS/OS vectors or not. Dave?
|
|
Dave Lyons There is no special official method for patching the GS/OS
|
|
vectors. "Just do it." Be sure you
|
|
Dave Lyons have interrupts disabled when you're only "half patched," and be
|
|
sure to patch both the stack
|
|
Dave Lyons entry ($e100b0) and the inline entry ($e100a8).
|
|
Matt DTS (And be sure to check both class 0 and class 1 calls.)
|
|
JWankerl Half patched? Like one entry and not the other?
|
|
ShanoJ Naw, like bank but not address word...
|
|
Matt DTS Like when you've replaced the first two bytes of the vector but
|
|
not the last two.
|
|
JWankerl Oh okay, got it. Is it safe to remove my patch when I'm done?
|
|
Dave Lyons Well, it's not safe to *not* remove your patch when you're done,
|
|
so....YES, it's safe. :)
|
|
JWankerl Okay. Just wondering what would happen if someone patched over my
|
|
patch. :-)
|
|
Dave Lyons If someone patches over your patch, their patch will go away when
|
|
you take yours out. (Too bad.)
|
|
Apple24evr No-- wait---
|
|
Apple24evr Can't you patch by copying the old vectors into your code?
|
|
Apple24evr That way, it's a chain of tool patches?>
|
|
JWankerl I don't think I'm following this now...
|
|
Matt DTS Yes, A24Evr, but if someone removes a middle link of the chain,
|
|
it falls apart.
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, but what if someone is chained to you, and you put your
|
|
chainee back into
|
|
ShanoJ the vector? Then everything after yours is removed...
|
|
JWankerl I change the vectors to point to my code and then re-route my code
|
|
to where
|
|
JWankerl those vectors were pointing, so if someone patched into my patch
|
|
and I removed
|
|
JWankerl mine, then that other patch would call me and the machine would
|
|
die, right?
|
|
Matt DTS Daisy-chaning only works "totally" correct if all the patches are
|
|
removed in the order they were
|
|
Matt DTS installed.
|
|
Apple24evr Oh oh oh... I see... (I love aliases)
|
|
Apple24evr heheheh!
|
|
ShanoJ Naw, Joe, theirs would never be called...
|
|
JWankerl Ahhhhh! I get it. Temporary mind slip. :-)
|
|
JWankerl But then what happens when they unpatch?
|
|
ShanoJ That's a bigger problem... :)
|
|
AFA Gary J Sounds worth testing out :)
|
|
JJennings Let's all hop into the monitor and try it. :)
|
|
Apple24evr heh
|
|
Matt DTS Joe, draw yourself some diagrams with arrows pointing to different
|
|
addresses to simulate the
|
|
Matt DTS flow of execution. Things will become clearer.
|
|
JWankerl Nah, Nifty List is better. :-)
|
|
ShanoJ Probably you should test that the current address in the vector
|
|
and the one
|
|
ShanoJ you're hoping to put in there are the same....
|
|
JWankerl Good thought, Jonah. But what should I do if they're different?
|
|
Not unpatch?
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, then you just assume that something weird has happened and
|
|
don't unpatch,
|
|
ShanoJ just let all of the calls pass through you unaffected.
|
|
JWankerl Yah, I could do that, but I'd have to leave a piece of my program
|
|
around -
|
|
JWankerl but better than crashing I reckon.
|
|
Matt DTS Exciting though patching theory is, I think I'm going to take
|
|
off.
|
|
ShanoJ Nite Matt!
|
|
ShanoJ Ya, probably a bit better than crashing... :)
|
|
AFA Gary J :)
|
|
AFL Dyfet Goodnight Matt
|
|
AFA Gary J Goodnight, Matt.
|
|
AFL Dyfet I would also like to thank our guest, Jay Jennings, for stopping
|
|
by this
|
|
AFL Dyfet evening and putting up with us as long as he has :)....
|
|
AFA Gary J Yes, thanks Jay!
|
|
Apple24evr Thanks Jay. I laughed, I cried, I wet my pants.
|
|
JJennings Thanks, A24Evr. I try. :-P
|
|
Apple24evr LOL!
|
|
AFA Gary J BTW: I wanted to say that I was skeptical about a disk based
|
|
8/16 as well, but
|
|
AFA Gary J I must say that I'm very impressed by the format! Very much like
|
|
reading the
|
|
AFA Gary J magazine.
|
|
JJennings Thanks! I've enjoyed being here and hope to keep putting out neat
|
|
issues of 8/16-Central for...
|
|
JJennings ...a long time to come.
|
|
AFL Dyfet As do we!
|
|
Apple24evr Yeah! Let's hope for it.
|
|
|
|
|