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MindVox [MAIN MENU] Commands

About - Summary of Each Forum Finger - Get Info on Another User
Bye - Leave the MindVox System Last - List Last 20 Callers
Editorial - Read Overture Article Members - List Members of MindVox
Expert - Turn Expert Menus On/Off Page USER - Write Message to a User
Feedback - Mail to Support Staff Who - List Users Online Now

-=/[ Other Areas of MindVox ]/=-

Archives - Software and Text Files IRC - World-Wide Chat Network
Chat - Multi-User Chat Lounge Info - MindVox Info File Area
Forums - Enter the MindVox FORUMS Maelstrom - Multi-User Fantasy Game
Help - Help with Using MindVox Mail - Send Electronic Mail
Home - Your Private File Area Settings - Alter Your Configuration
Games - Play Single-Player Games Usenet - Enter USENET NewsGroups

Phantom Access Technologies, Inc. (TM)

(9:53pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: about
No detailed information available about CPSR

(9:53pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: ]
] is an invalid command.
Type HELP for help.

(9:53pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: [
[ is an invalid command.
Type HELP for help.

(9:53pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: go cyberpunk

(9:53pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: about

CYBERSPACE: CYBERPUNK

An area devoted to the discussion of Cyberpunk; the literary movement, the
lifestyle, the fiction that has taken off and begun shaping the way science
evolves the technology that make its dreams become real.

(9:54pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: go cpsr

(9:54pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: read

-=/[ [12] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

[Return] 1-12, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 12
Subject: Welcome
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 18:07:59 EDT

Welcome to the CPSR forum. CPSR (Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility) is a membership group of computer scientists and others
interested in the social effects of technology on society. It is based in
Palo Alto, Ca with offices in Cambridge, Mass and Washington, DC and over 2
dozen chapters across the United States (most urban areas). It is a
non-profit organization with the board of directors elected by the
membership (not some rich guy selecting himself ;-).

CPSR started as a mailing list at XEROX PARC in 1981 discussing SDI and
military uses of technology. Today, our focus is on civil liberties,
privacy and information access. Some recent projects we have done include:

Successfully obtaining the first Bush National Security Directive on
Computer Security (nsd-42) and its implimenting document (NTISSIC-600).

Forced the United States Secret Service to admit that they have files on
the recent 2600 mall raid. Are currently working with the ACLU and EFF to
file a civil suit against the Secret Service.
Forced the National institute of Standards and Technology to admit that
the National Security Agency was the actual creator of the new govt.
encryption scheme-the Digital Signature Standard.

Took the lead in fighting the FBI's Digital Telephony proposal. Sued the
FBI to require disclosure of their reasons for thier proposal. Uncovered
an analysis by the General Services Administration that described the
proposal as a "threat to national security."

Submitted to President Clinton a report on policies related to information
access and technology. The report was generated from a netwide
solicitation for suggestions which recieved over 1200 responses.

Created a electronic library of documents on privacy, information access
and other issues available via ftp/wais/gopher and email from cpsr.org.

For more information on CPSR, email cpsr@csli.stanford.edu or ftp to the
CPSR Internet Library at cpsr.org.

dave

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

[Return] 1-12, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 12
Subject: Re: Welcome
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 20:47:01 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1BFR2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Dave,

I was wondering what CPSR's position regarding PGP is, or if it has even
approached the subject.

-3j

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

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Post: 3 of 12
Subject: 2600 Mall Raid
From: clortnoc (Dan d00m rulez)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 01:32:51 EDT
In-Reply-To: <3omR2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

On behalf of hackerdom I just wanted to thank the CPSR for exposing the
SS actions at the Pentagon City Mall. Good work and keep it up.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

[Return] 1-12, [Q]uit:
Post: 4 of 12
Subject: Re: 2600 Mall Raid
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 17:43:29 EDT
In-Reply-To: <gXZR2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Thanks for the encouragement.

I frequently and vocally encourage the use and distribution of PGP,
especially by those who really need it, like human rights groups in
Central America and Asia. As an almost lawyer (only 30 days to go!), I find
the arguement that a math formula can be patented to be dubious at best
(caveat: I'm not an expert in IP and I dont have the $ to get sued by
Bidzos and prove him wrong). CPSR has never taken a stand one way or the other
but franly we'd like to see encryption built into everything as a default
privacy mode. We also plan to discuss it at our next CPSR Crypto
and Privacy Roundtable and may even demonstrate it to the congressional
staff and exec agency officials there as an example of how bad people want
crypto in the computer world.

Dave

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

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Post: 5 of 12
Subject: Re: 2600 Mall Raid
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 09:08:21 EDT

tc (Dave Banisar) writes:

>
> Thanks for the encouragement.
>
> I frequently and vocally encourage the use and distribution of PGP,
> especially by those who really need it, like human rights groups in
> Central America and Asia. As an almost lawyer (only 30 days to go!)...

Does that mean you're going to be all grumpy and obnoxious for several weeks
while doing the Bar Exam Thing? I figure I'd ask now, since I've already
lived through it several times before when friends went to take the bar and
metamorphosed into feisty people, at least until the results came back.

With respect to PGP, there is a channel of communication between RSA and the
developers of PGP, which may bear fruit. Stay tuned.

Yours in fun, --Strat
The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

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Post: 6 of 12
Subject: Re: 2600 Mall Raid
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 13:17:08 EDT
In-Reply-To: <mcaw2B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yes Dammit! Now do you have any other dumb questions?

It would be nice to have RSA get off their asses and sanction the use of
PGP so that "netgods" like Sternlight dont feel some need to play
policeman. i may have phil and Bidzos in the same small room pretty soon.
Lets see what happens...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

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Post: 7 of 12
Subject: CPSR Comments on WH Encryption initiative
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 10:44:57 EDT

CPSR Crypto Statement
-----------------------------------------------
April 16, 1993
Washington, DC

COMPUTER PROFESSIONALS CALL FOR PUBLIC
DEBATE ON NEW GOVERNMENT ENCRYPTION INITIATIVE
Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility (CPSR) today
called for the public disclosure of technical data underlying the
government's newly-announced "Public Encryption Management" initiative.
The new cryptography scheme was announced today by the White House and the
National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST), which will
implement the technical specifications of the plan. A NIST spokesman
acknowledged that the National Security Agency (NSA), the super- secret
military intelligence agency, had actually developed the encryption
technology around which the new initiative is built.
According to NIST, the technical specifications and the
Presidential directive establishing the plan are classified. To open the
initiative to public review and debate, CPSR today filed a series of
Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests with key agencies, including
NSA, NIST, the National Security Council and the FBI for information
relating to the encryption plan. The CPSR requests are in keeping with
the spirit of the Computer Security Act, which Congress passed in 1987 in
order to open the development of non-military computer security standards
to public scrutiny and to limit NSA's role in the creation of such
standards.
CPSR previously has questioned the role of NSA in developing the
so-called "digital signature standard" (DSS), a communications
authentication technology that NIST proposed for government-wide use in
1991. After CPSR sued NIST in a FOIA lawsuit last year, the civilian
agency disclosed for the first time that NSA had, in fact, developed that
security standard. NSA is due to file papers in federal court next week
justifying the classification of records concerning its creation of the
DSS.
David Sobel, CPSR Legal Counsel, called the administration's
apparent commitment to the privacy of electronic communications, as
reflected in today's official statement, "a step in the right direction."
But he questioned the propriety of NSA's role in the process and the
apparent secrecy that has thus far shielded the development process from
public scrutiny. "At a time when we are moving towards the development of
a new information infrastructure, it is vital that standards designed to
protect personal privacy be established openly and with full public
participation. It is not appropriate for NSA -- an agency with a long
tradition of secrecy and opposition to effective civilian cryptography --
to play a leading role in the development process."
CPSR is a national public-interest alliance of computer industry
professionals dedicated to examining the impact of technology on society.
CPSR has 21 chapters in the U.S. and maintains offices in Palo Alto,
California, Cambridge, Massachusetts and Washington, DC. For additional
information on CPSR, call (415) 322-3778 or e-mail
<cpsr@csli.stanford.edu>.
======================================

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

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Post: 8 of 12
Subject: More information on WH Initiative
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 10:48:56 EDT

Comments on White House Clipper Plan

I attended the "interesting" NIST press conference yesterday on the
"Clipper Chip" and may be able to clear up a few quaestions. According to
NIST: The Chip has 4 functions, including
Key
Encryption
Serial Number
Escrow functionality

Thus, it sounds like a key management system may have to be built into the
devices that will be sold with the chip. However this means that they will
also be able to determine which key to get becuase they will know the
serial number. It also seems likely that once your key is compromised, its
gone forever. This is a serious problem

The Attorney General will determine next week who will be the escrow
agents for this. I am willing to bet $ that NIST/Commerce will be one of
them (not a lot, after all, I do work for a non-profit).

Everything about this proposal is classified. The chip is classified but
even more disturbing, the president directing ordering a review into crypto
policy is also classified. CPSR has already filed 11 FOIA requests for all
information, including the directive. You can expect that we will be
filing suit shortly to get those documents and force this out into the
open. When I questioned them about why the review was happening after the
proposal, they did not answer me.

This is not 1984 all over again-its '86. The NSA tried this exact same
"black box" proposal (minus the escrow) in 1986. Industry laughed them out
of the park. NIST also stated that the proposal has been implimented for
14 months and they (NSA actually) have been working on it for at least 4
years.

AT&T announced yesterday that will will begin selling devices with these Clippers in them immediatly.
We've been sold down the river by ma bell again.

Dave Banisar
CPSR Washington Office

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

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Post: 9 of 12
Subject: Re: More information on WH Initiative
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 15:43:56 EDT
In-Reply-To: <0Bo62B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I hear that Oliver North and Poindexter will be featured speakers at
May's Electronic Conference. I've written for more info (number to call
is 800-845-7685). Anybody have more info on this?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

[Return] 1-12, [Q]uit:
Post: 10 of 12
Subject: Re: More information on WH Initiative
From: tc (Dave Banisar)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 16:35:08 EDT
In-Reply-To: <XZ262B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I have the brochure. Chris Goggins will be there talking about Computer
Security and Ollie will be talking about privacy (snort, grunt, choke, puke).
Oliie seems to have the same problem as Barlow-confusing secrecy as privacy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

[Return] 1-12, [Q]uit:
Post: 11 of 12
Subject: Re: More information on WH Initiative
From: kurtphil (Kurt Phillips)

-=/[ Returning to Main Menu ]/=-

(9:55pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: fo cyberpunk
There are Several Commands which begin with FO.

(9:55pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: go cyberpunk

(9:55pm) [ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ] (? for Menu)

[Main Menu]: read

-=/[ [133] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 133

CYBERSPACE: CYBERPUNK

An area devoted to the discussion of Cyberpunk; the literary movement, the
lifestyle, the fiction that has taken off and begun shaping the way science
evolves the technology that make its dreams become real.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 133
Subject: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com (c@:mg)
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 92 16:48:13 EDT

I run a mailing list dedicated to talking about cyberpunk (in the literal
and cultural sense), vr, vcomputer underground, industrial music/culture,
chaos theory, and whatever else...basically it's geared for "the future
and fringes of culture"...It's called FutureCulture...If you'd like to
subscribe to this on-line mailing list, send mail to
'future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu' asking for more info or asking to
subscribe...

BTW - I've also typed up this huge "cyberography" that lists suggested
books, magazines, BBSes, music, and all sorts of shit the cyber crowd is
into..It's around 100k....Bruce Sterling, Steve Brown of SF Eye, St Jude
of Mondo, are some of the people who've had nice things to say about
it...It's also appeared in some on-line publications..Anybody who's
interested in this file, send mail to the above address - it'll be
auto-sent to you when/if you subscribe to my list, to...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 3 of 133
Subject: mailing list
From: klarry@mindvox.phantom.com (Larry Kessler)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 15:55:08 EDT

I tried to subscribe and it bounced my mail out
from your listing. Can you move it to this
section so that we can read it?

Larry

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 4 of 133
Subject: future-culture
From: siva@mindvox.phantom.com (Stu Klingman)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 22:26:53 EDT

...has been having some connectivity problems. They'll be ironed out
shortly. The Future-culture paper is being re-written and enhanced a bit,
and'll no doubt be available for downloading from this world momentarily.

I think.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 5 of 133
Subject: Cyberpunk/MindVox
From: blain@mindvox.phantom.com (Blain Strickel)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 92 09:40:05 EDT

This was out of FutureCulture but since its broken and the members look
like they are all showing up here. here:

MindVox went up on Saturday, in 48 hours it has amassed about 100
members,
including people from from the geographic locations of Austria,
Australia,
Germany, Holland and Sweden. Members of Computer Underground Digest, the
Electronic Frontier Foundation, Mondo 2000, Spin and High Times are
online
and rounding out the picture are 50-60 New York users and some two dozen
Internet people.

On the negative side. You == couldn't == post until just last night,
because the code wasn't set for the new accounts in the right way, so
only
in the last 12 hours have messages started to show up. Half the people
online
have their no chat set to on, so you can't contact them and there are
places
where options don't work right yet for things that should be working.

The most aggrevating thing is probably the choked up Internet connection,
which usually has a lot of people trying to get through all at once and
keeps
things running slow for Internet users.

This is all to be expected from any new system, especially one where some
of
the main programmers spend part of each day talking with their lawyers
instead
of fixing bugs and one would hope that Kroupa and friends would move to a

T1 feed faster than this fall, because if the last 48 hours are a
indication,
they are going to have a == lot == of Internet traffic.

As it is right now, MindVox is 3 or 4 times as fast as that other
venerable
service called the Well, the software it offers is much simpler to use
and
pleasant to deal with and it looks like the migration to MindVox has
begun.

It's almost too early to say anything about anything, because the wrapper

just went off and one would get the idea that MindVox is a party that is
in
the awkward phase right before the music comes on and everything starts
to
move.

If you want to see the birth of a system that is going to be doing big
things in Cyberspace and be part of that, check out MindVox. If you want
to
read a lot of things without taking part, wait at least two weeks.

Best,

Blain

Hello World! First spin on..........

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 6 of 133
Subject: Aggripa
From: sparc@mindvox.phantom.com (John Gaelum)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 12:40:49 EDT

I have heard all kinds of stories about this one, what the hell is
Aggripa going to be, or what is it? What little I've heard about it
doesn't make any sense.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, its Gibson's new book which has
been described in too many different ways to repeat right now. if anyone
knows the real deal, please enlighten us.

Sparc

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 7 of 133
Subject: Agrippa / FC
From: ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com (c@:mg)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 17:12:30 EDT

First of all, FutureCulture: The machine it runs on is being moved,
(nyx.cs.du.edu), so there have been problems....Approxiamtely every 3
hours, it forgets who ever single user is and deletes a couple thousand
people from the password list - that is why when you send mail to
future[-request] it bounces....There is a chance that mail can still get
through, if you send it at the right time...:) :) :) Not much I can
really do about it, hopefully the problems will be fixed soon...

Agrippa: It is a poem, not a book. It is somewhat autobiographical. It
is on disk. It costs between $450 and $7,500 depending on which edition
you want. Gibson worked with 2 other artists in creating this
"let's-blur-the-lines-of-art" work, Kevin Begos and Dennis Ashbaugh. The
only people to *for sure* have a copy, that I know of, is the
Mirrorshades group. The interesting thing about Agrippa: A Book of the
Dead is the protection against redistribution. 2 rumors are going around
that either: 1, it deletes itself after being read (remember, this work
is on a disk) or, 2, it is encrypted after reading. Last I heard, Loyd
Blankenship posted to alt.cyberpunk that he will try and get a copy and
distribute it to the net (which was *supposedly* intended for Agrippa)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 8 of 133
Subject: Futurewhat?
From: archer@mindvox.phantom.com (Richard Newson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 16:25:15 EDT

Read title

Whatis Future Culture?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 9 of 133
Subject: Future Culture
From: blain@mindvox.phantom.com (Blain Strickel)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 92 00:06:56 EDT

Is a very nice mailing list, that might be more useful if it was moved
here or to another site where things == work == at least some of the time,
I have been unable to get anything through for almost two weeks.

Best,

Blain

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 10 of 133
Subject: Agrippa
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 23:53:18 EDT

In an article I read, Agrippa was described as this:
Only in the neighborhood of 500 copies are being made (if memory serves me
correctly). It is on disk, and does delete itself after being read. The
pages appear on screen (as regular text) and turn at a preordained rate.
You cannot stop, and you cannot go back. As for copy protection, I do not
know. I also heard the story was to be released to the net.
It costs from $450 to $7500 (I think) and comes in from a regular box (the
$450 version) to a hardwood case with brass insets and all that jazzy
crap. I only know of Ashbaugh doing the art. The catch is, that there are
techno interpretations of viruses on the case. Some dissapear after an
hours exposure to light, some appear in an hour. All done with some crazy
ink. This information was obtained from Details, in an article apppearing
several months ago.
Just think, the library of congress has to recieve 2 copies for
evaluation. That leaves us with 2 less to buy!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 11 of 133
Subject: Agrippa
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 02:00:15 EDT

It doesn't DELETE itself after being read, it ENCRYPTS itself.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 12 of 133
Subject: Yeah, it ENCRYPTS itself...
From: siva (Stu Klingman)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 15:09:00 EDT

In fact, that's why gibson had trouble getting the book exportable. Laws
prohibit export of encryption technology.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 13 of 133
Subject: Agrripa
From: tonyd (Anthony Desjardin)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 23:54:14 EDT

SO where can you buy it ?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 14 of 133
Subject: This book..
From: ahmed (Ahmed Kufuti)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 03:15:48 EDT

This self-destructing book you speak of, it sounds like a really silly
and crazy thing. Why are so few copies being printed?

Is it ever going to come out in hardcover or paper back so that the
general public could read it? And if not, why bother writing it in first
place?

These sci-fi writers, they are so crazy sometimes, you know..

ahmed

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 15 of 133
Subject: Agrippa
From: ahawks (Andy)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 92 02:16:15 EDT

The purpose of Agrippa is not to be "the next in the sprawl series" or
something like that...It is an autobiographical poem by Gibson PLUS work
from two OTHER artists...Agrippa is more of an art package than anything
else....

If anyone actually want sto buy it, here's the address:

Kevin Begos, Jr.
Apartment #4D
1411 York Ave.
New York, NY 10021

Phone @ 212.650.9324

Printing this with the hope that people here have respect, and Begos
won't be baraged by inane phone calls as to what Agrippa is all
about...Only call him if you're ready to spend at least $450 for it...

FutureCulture: It works now...Again, I had no control over the problems
with the system...That was out of my hands...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 16 of 133
Subject: Future Culture
From: bruces (Bruce Sterling)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 92 22:06:38 EDT
In-Reply-To: <sLc7oB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Subject: FutureCulture FAQ
To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 13:44:11 MDT

_____________________ ____________________
/ __________________/ / ________________/
/ /____________ / /
/ ____________/ / /
/ / / /_______________
/__/ uture /__________________/ ulture

____________________________________________________________
_______
| |
| Tomorrow's Reality Today..... |
|___________________________________________________________
________|

A somewhat-definitive guide to resources bringing you the future.....

updated: August.16.1992
____________________________________________________________
___________________

subscriptions to the futureculture mailinglist: future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu
specify: real-time, digest, or faq
only
info: subject 'send info'

typed/cut/pasted/copied by
hawkeye (andy)
ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu
303.438.1481 (bbs)
____________________________________________________________
___________________

While no article that attempts to document an entire emerging subculture
can be
complete, I will do my best to give you enough complete and accurate
information to get you on your way to the future.

This article will focus mainly on cyberpunk culture, rave culture, industrial,
post po-mo, virtual reality, drugs, computer underground, etc. Basically, the
elements that make up the developing techno-underground, the new edge,
the technoculture.

Included in this article will be: suggested readings -- books, magazines,
zines, requisite authors, etc., BBSes devoted to relevant topics, corporations
and merchandise geared toward the techno-aware, Internet e-mail addresses for
relevant figure-heads in this area, suggested music and movies/videos, FTP
sites, etc.

I will do my best to update this article every so often, as the
techno-underground is not stagnant and is always shifting and changing and
moving forward. If you have any complaints/comments/suggestions/errors or
just
wanna send someone mail, write to me on the Internet -
ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu. I
also welcome addition requests and such - feel free to say "hey man, add
blah-blah to the list!"

-----all the information contained in this article is for information purposes
only - I am not responsible for anything but me and all that - I disclaim
everything I possibly can and all that other stuff

-----many thanks go out to The Butler for his article "An Introduction to the
Computer Underground", which was an invaluable resource and model!
____________________________________________________________
.

Frankly it just goes on like that for pages *8-) bruces@well

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 17 of 133
Subject: Statement of Principle
From: bruces (Bruce Sterling)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 92 22:15:02 EDT
In-Reply-To: <RD3kRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Bruce Sterling
bruces@well.sf.ca.us
Catscan 10
From SCIENCE FICTION EYE #10

A STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLE

I just wrote my first nonfiction book. It's called THE HACKER
CRACKDOWN: LAW AND DISORDER ON THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER. Writing this
book has required me to spend much of the past year and a half in the
company of hackers, cops, and civil libertarians.
I've spent much time listening to arguments over what's legal,
what's illegal, what's right and wrong, what's decent and what's
despicable, what's moral and immoral, in the world of computers and civil
liberties. My various informants were knowledgeable people who cared
passionately about these issues, and most of them seemed well-intentioned.
Considered as a whole, however, their opinions were a baffling mess of
contradictions.
When I started this project, my ignorance of the issues involved
was genuine and profound. I'd never knowingly met anyone from the
computer underground. I'd never logged-on to an underground
bulletin-board or read a semilegal hacker magazine. Although I did care
a great deal about the issue of freedom of expression, I knew sadly little
about the history of civil rights in America or the legal doctrines that
surround freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and freedom of
association. My relations with the police were firmly based on the
stratagem of avoiding personal contact with police to the greatest extent
possible.
I didn't go looking for this project. This project came looking
for me. I became inextricably involved when agents of the United States
Secret Service, acting under the guidance of federal attorneys from
Chicago, came to my home town of Austin on March 1, 1990, and confiscated
the computers of a local science fiction gaming publisher. Steve Jackson
Games, Inc., of Austin, was about to publish a gaming-book called GURPS
Cyberpunk.
When the federal law-enforcement agents discovered the electronic
manuscript of CYBERPUNK on the computers they had seized from Mr.
Jackson's offices, they expressed grave shock and alarm. They declared
that CYBERPUNK was "a manual for computer crime."
It's not my intention to reprise the story of the Jackson case in
this column. I've done that to the best of my ability in THE HACKER
CRACKDOWN; and in any case the ramifications of March 1 are far from over.
Mr Jackson was never charged with any crime. His civil suit against
the raiders is still in federal court as I write this.
I don't want to repeat here what some cops believe, what some
hackers believe, or what some civil libertarians believe. Instead, I
want to discuss my own moral beliefs as a science fiction writer -- such
as they are. As an SF writer, I want to attempt a personal statement of
principle.
It has not escaped my attention that there are many people who
believe that anyone called a "cyberpunk" must be, almost by definition,
entirely devoid of principle. I offer as evidence an excerpt from Buck
BloomBecker's 1990 book, SPECTACULAR COMPUTER CRIMES. On page 53, in a
chapter titled "Who Are The Computer Criminals?", Mr. BloomBecker
introduces the formal classification of "cyberpunk" criminality.

"In the last few years, a new genre of science fiction has arisen
under the evocative name of 'cyberpunk.' Introduced in the work of
William Gibson, particularly in his prize-winning novel NEUROMANCER,
cyberpunk takes an apocalyptic view of the technological future. In
NEUROMANCER, the protagonist is a futuristic hacker who must use the most
sophisticated computer strategies to commit crimes for people who offer
him enough money to buy the biological creations he needs to survive. His
life is one of cynical despair, fueled by the desire to avoid death.
Though none of the virus cases actually seen so far have been so
devastating, this book certainly represents an attitude that should be
watched for when we find new cases of computer virus and try to understand
the motivations behind them.
"The New York Times's John Markoff, one of the more perceptive and
accomplished writers in the field, has written than a number of computer
criminals demonstrate new levels of meanness. He characterizes them, as
do I, as cyberpunks."

Those of us who have read Gibson's NEUROMANCER closely will be
aware of certain factual inaccuracies in Mr. BloomBecker's brief review.
NEUROMANCER is not "apocalyptic." The chief conspirator in NEUROMANCER
forces Case's loyalty, not by buying his services, but by planting
poison-sacs in his brain. Case is "fueled" not by his greed for money or
"biological creations," or even by the cynical "desire to avoid death,"
but rather by his burning desire to hack cyberspace. And so forth.
However, I don't think this misreading of NEUROMANCER is based on
carelessness or malice. The rest of Mr. BloomBecker's book generally is
informative, well-organized, and thoughtful. Instead, I feel that Mr.
BloomBecker manfully absorbed as much of NEUROMANCER as he could without
suffering a mental toxic reaction. This report of his is what he actually
*saw* when reading the novel.
NEUROMANCER has won quite a following in the world of computer
crime investigation. A prominent law enforcement official once told me
that police unfailingly conclude the worst when they find a teenager with
a computer and a copy of NEUROMANCER. When I declared that I too was a
"cyberpunk" writer, she asked me if I would print the recipe for a
pipe-bomb in my works. I was astonished by this question, which struck me
as bizarre rhetorical excess at the time. That was before I had actually
examined bulletin-boards in the computer underground, which I found to be
chock-a-block with recipes for pipe-bombs, and worse. (I didn't have the
heart to tell her that my friend and colleague Walter Jon Williams had
once written and published an SF story closely describing explosives
derived from simple household chemicals.)
Cyberpunk SF (along with SF in general) has, in fact, permeated
the computer underground. I have met young underground hackers who use
the aliases "Neuromancer," "Wintermute" and "Count Zero." The Legion of
Doom, the absolute bete noire of computer law-enforcement, used to
congregate on a bulletin-board called "Black Ice."
In the past, I didn't know much about anyone in the underground,
but they certainly knew about me. Since that time, I've had people
express sincere admiration for my novels, and then, in almost the same
breath, brag to me about breaking into hospital computers to chortle over
confidential medical reports about herpes victims.
The single most stinging example of this syndrome is "Pengo," a
member of the German hacker-group that broke into Internet computers while
in the pay of the KGB. He told German police, and the judge at the trial
of his co-conspirators, that he was inspired by NEUROMANCER and John
Brunner's SHOCKWAVE RIDER.
I didn't write NEUROMANCER. I did, however, read it in
manuscript and offered many purportedly helpful comments. I praised the
book publicly and repeatedly and at length. I've done everything I can
to get people to read this book.
I don't recall cautioning Gibson that his novel might lead to
anarchist hackers selling their expertise to the ferocious and repulsive
apparat that gave the world the Lubyanka and the Gulag Archipelago. I
don't think I could have issued any such caution, even if I'd felt the
danger of such a possibility, which I didn't. I still don't know in what
fashion Gibson might have changed his book to avoid inciting evildoers,
while still retaining the integrity of his vision -- the very quality
about the book that makes it compelling and worthwhile.
This leads me to my first statements of moral principle.

As a "cyberpunk" SF writer, I am not responsible for every act
committed by a Bohemian with a computer. I don't own the word
"cyberpunk" and cannot help where it is bestowed, or who uses it, or to
what ends.
As a science fiction writer, it is not my business to make people
behave. It is my business to make people imagine. I cannot control
other people's imaginations -- any more than I would allow them to control
mine.
I am, however, morally obliged to speak out when acts of evil are
committed that use my ideas or my rhetoric, however distantly, as a
justification.

Pengo and his friends committed a grave crime that was worthy of
condemnation and punishment. They were clever, but treacherously clever.
They were imaginative, but it was imagination in a bad cause. They were
technically accomplished, but they abused their expertise for illicit
profit and to feed their egos. They may be "cyberpunks" -- according to
many, they may deserve that title far more than I do -- but they're no
friends of mine.
What is "crime"? What is a moral offense? What actions are evil
and dishonorable? I find these extraordinarily difficult questions. I
have no special status that should allow me to speak with authority on
such subjects. Quite the contrary. As a writer in a scorned popular
literature and a self-professed eccentric Bohemian, I have next to no
authority of any kind. I'm not a moralist, philosopher, or prophet.
I've always considered my "moral role," such as it is, to be that of a
court jester -- a person sometimes allowed to speak the unspeakable, to
explore ideas and issues in a format where they can be treated as games,
thought-experiments, or metaphors, not as prescriptions, laws, or sermons.

I have no religion, no sacred scripture to guide my actions and
provide an infallible moral bedrock. I'm not seeking political
responsibilities or the power of public office. I habitually question
any pronouncement of authority, and entertain the liveliest skepticism
about the processes of law and justice. I feel no urge to conform to the
behavior of the majority of my fellow citizens. I'm a pain in the neck.
My behavior is far from flawless. I lived and thrived in Austin,
Texas in the 1970s and 1980s, in a festering milieu of arty
crypto-intellectual hippies. I've committed countless "crimes," like
millions of other people in my generation. These crimes were of the
glamorous "victimless" variety, but they would surely have served to put
me in prison had I done them, say, in front of the State Legislature.
Had I lived a hundred years ago as I live today, I would probably
have been lynched by outraged fellow Texans as a moral abomination. If I
lived in Iran today and wrote and thought as I do, I would probably be
tried and executed.
As far as I can tell, moral relativism is a fact of life. I
think it might be possible to outwardly conform to every jot and tittle of
the taboos of one's society, while feeling no emotional or intellectual
commitment to them. I understand that certain philosophers have argued
that this is morally proper behavior for a good citizen. But I can't
live that life. I feel, sincerely, that my society is engaged in many
actions which are foolish and shortsighted and likely to lead to our
destruction. I feel that our society must change, and change radically,
in a process that will cause great damage to our present system of values.
This doesn't excuse my own failings, which I regret, but it does
explain, I hope, why my lifestyle and my actions are not likely to make
authority feel entirely comfortable.
Knowledge is power. The rise of computer networking, of the
Information Society, is doing strange and disruptive things to the
processes by which power and knowledge are currently distributed.
Knowledge and information, supplied through these new conduits, are highly
corrosive to the status quo. People living in the midst of technological
revolution are living outside the law: not necessarily because they mean
to break laws, but because the laws are vague, obsolete, overbroad,
draconian, or unenforceable. Hackers break laws as a matter of course,
and some have been punished unduly for relatively minor infractions not
motivated by malice. Even computer police, seeking earnestly to apprehend
and punish wrongdoers, have been accused of abuse of their offices, and of
violation of the Constitution and the civil statutes. These police may
indeed have committed these "crimes." Some officials have already
suffered grave damage to their reputations and careers -- all the time
convinced that they were morally in the right; and, like the hackers they
pursued, never feeling any genuine sense of shame, remorse, or guilt.
I have lived, and still live, in a counterculture, with its own
system of values. Counterculture -- Bohemia -- is never far from
criminality. "To live outside the law you must be honest" was Bob
Dylan's classic hippie motto. A Bohemian finds romance in the notion
that "his clothes are dirty but his hands are clean." But there's danger
in setting aside the strictures of the law to linchpin one's honor on
one's personal integrity. If you throw away the rulebook to rely on your
individual conscience you will be put in the way of temptation.
And temptation is a burden. It hurts. It is grotesquely easy to
justify, to rationalize, an action of which one should properly be
ashamed. In investigating the milieu of computer-crime I have come into
contact with a world of temptation formerly closed to me. Nowadays, it
would take no great effort on my part to break into computers, to steal
long-distance telephone service, to ingratiate myself with people who
would merrily supply me with huge amounts of illicitly copied software. I
could even build pipe-bombs. I haven't done these things, and disapprove
of them; in fact, having come to know these practices better than I cared
to, I feel sincere revulsion for them now. But this knowledge is a kind
of power, and power is tempting. Journalistic objectivity, or the urge
to play with ideas, cannot entirely protect you. Temptation clings to the
mind like a series of small but nagging weights. Carrying these weights
may make you stronger. Or they may drag you down.
"His clothes are dirty but his hands are clean." It's a fine
ideal, when you can live up to it. Like a lot of Bohemians, I've gazed
with a fine disdain on certain people in power whose clothes were clean
but their hands conspicuously dirty. But I've also met a few people
eager to pat me on the back, whose clothes were dirty and their hands as
well. They're not pleasant company.
Somehow one must draw a line. I'm not very good at drawing lines.
When other people have drawn me a line, I've generally been quite anxious
to have a good long contemplative look at the other side. I don't feel
much confidence in my ability to draw these lines. But I feel that I
should. The world won't wait. It only took a few guys with poolcues and
switchblades to turn Woodstock Nation into Altamont. Haight-Ashbury was
once full of people who could trust anyone they'd smoked grass with and
love anyone they'd dropped acid with -- for about six months. Soon the
place was aswarm with speed-freaks and junkies, and heaven help us if they
didn't look just like the love-bead dudes from the League of Spiritual
Discovery. Corruption exists, temptation exists. Some people fall.
And the temptation is there for all of us, all the time.
I've come to draw a line at money. It's not a good line, but
it's something. There are certain activities that are unorthodox,
dubious, illegal or quasi-legal, but they might perhaps be justified by an
honest person with unconventional standards. But in my opinion, when
you're making a commercial living from breaking the law, you're beyond
the pale. I find it hard to accept your countercultural sincerity when
you're grinning and pocketing the cash, compadre.
I can understand a kid swiping phone service when he's broke,
powerless, and dying to explore the new world of the networks. I don't
approve of this, but I can understand it. I scorn to do this myself, and
I never have; but I don't find it so heinous that it deserves pitiless
repression. But if you're stealing phone service and selling it -- if
you've made yourself a miniature phone company and you're pimping off the
energy of others just to line your own pockets -- you're a thief. When
the heat comes to put you away, don't come crying "brother" to me.
If you're creating software and giving it away, you're a fine
human being. If you're writing software and letting other people copy
it and try it out as shareware, I appreciate your sense of trust, and if I
like your work, I'll pay you. If you're copying other people's software
and giving it away, you're damaging other people's interests, and should
be ashamed, even if you're posing as a glamorous info-liberating
subversive. But if you're copying other people's software and selling it,
you're a crook and I despise you.
Writing and spreading viruses is a vile, hurtful, and shameful
activity that I unreservedly condemn.
There's something wrong with the Information Society. There's
something wrong with the idea that "information" is a commodity like a
desk or a chair. There's something wrong with patenting software
algorithms. There's something direly meanspirited and ungenerous about
inventing a language and then renting it out to other people to speak.
There's something unprecedented and sinister in this process of creeping
commodification of data and knowledge. A computer is something too close
to the human brain for me to rest entirely content with someone patenting
or copyrighting the process of its thought. There's something sick and
unworkable about an economic system which has already spewed forth such a
vast black market. I don't think democracy will thrive in a milieu
where vast empires of data are encrypted, restricted, proprietary,
confidential, top secret, and sensitive. I fear for the stability of a
society that builds sandcastles out of databits and tries to stop a
real-world tide with royal commands.
Whole societies can fall. In Eastern Europe we have seen whole
nations collapse in a slough of corruption. In pursuit of their
unworkable economic doctrine, the Marxists doubled and redoubled their
efforts at social control, while losing all sight of the values that make
life worth living. At last the entire power structure was so discredited
that the last remaining shred of moral integrity could only be found in
Bohemia: in dissidents and dramatists and their illegal samizdat
underground fanzines. Their clothes were dirty but their hands were
clean. The only agitprop poster Vaclav Havel needed was a sign saying
*Vaclav Havel Guarantees Free Elections.* He'd never held power, but
people believed him, and they believed his Velvet Revolution friends.
I wish there were people in the Computer Revolution who could
inspire, and deserved to inspire, that level of trust. I wish there were
people in the Electronic Frontier whose moral integrity unquestionably
matched the unleashed power of those digital machines. A society is in
dire straits when it puts its Bohemia in power. I tremble for my country
when I contemplate this prospect. And yet it's possible. If dire straits
come, it can even be the last best hope.
The issues that enmeshed me in 1990 are not going to go away. I
became involved as a writer and journalist, because I felt it was right.
Having made that decision, I intend to stand by my commitment. I expect
to stay involved in these issues, in this debate, for the rest of my
life. These are timeless issues: civil rights, knowledge, power,
freedom and privacy, the necessary steps that a civilized society must
take to protect itself from criminals. There is no finality in politics;
it creates itself anew, it must be dealt with every day.
The future is a dark road and our speed is headlong. I didn't
ask for power or responsibility. I'm a science fiction writer, I only
wanted to play with Big Ideas in my cheerfully lunatic sandbox. What
little benefit I myself can contribute to society would likely be best
employed in writing better SF novels. I intend to write those better
novels, if I can. But in the meantime I seem to have accumulated a few
odd shreds of influence. It's a very minor kind of power, and doubtless
more than I deserve; but power without responsibility is a monstrous thing.
In writing HACKER CRACKDOWN, I tried to describe the truth as
other people saw it. I see it too, with my own eyes, but I can't yet
pretend to understand what I'm seeing. The best I can do, it seems to me,
is to try to approach the situation as an open-minded person of goodwill.
I therefore offer the following final set of principles, which I hope will
guide me in the days to come.
I'll listen to anybody, and I'll try to imagine myself in their situation.
I'll assume goodwill on the part of others until they fully earn
my distrust.
I won't cherish grudges. I'll forgive those who change their
minds and actions, just as I reserve the right to change my own mind and
actions.
I'll look hard for the disadvantages to others, in the things that
give me advantage. I won't assume that the way I live today is the
natural order of the universe, just because I happen to be benefiting from
it at the moment.
And while I don't plan to give up making money from my ethically
dubious cyberpunk activities, I hope to temper my impropriety by giving
more work away for no money at all.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 18 of 133
Subject: Re: Statement of Principle
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 92 00:29:19 EDT
In-Reply-To: <RR3kRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Bruce's piece was originally published in the most recent Science Fiction
Eye. It has, as I understand, received a lot of comment and the nexty isue
of that quarterly will contain a good deal of response to Bruce's piece
(including pieces from Charles Platt ("charles" on Mindvox) and myself --
once the piece is published, I will try as Bruce has, to post my piece here.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 19 of 133
Subject: Re: Statement of Principle
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 92 02:56:47 EDT
In-Reply-To: <kZ9kRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Bully to Bruce!

Let's stop the government from pulling our mirrorshades over our own eyes
in an attempt to remove all personal freedoms under the auspices of
catching "dangerous criminals".

I don't want and end to assurances against unreasonable search and seizure
in the "war on drugs" (personally, I'm for decriminalization, on
libertarian grounds, but that aside ...) or on a war against explorers in
the information age. Some are unscrupulous, some are principled, and some
are just joy riding the electron wave. But none of this justifies and end
to the individual rights to life, liberty, and property ... that pursuit
of hapiness is too valuable an idea to be violated by law enforcement
trying to catch a few criminals.

I opposed, but eventually begrugingly accepted sobriety checkpoints, but
that's about it!!
"Information wants to be free."

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 20 of 133
Subject: Electronic Cowboys and the Information Age
From: deathlok (Keith Mezzina)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 01:47:54 EST
In-Reply-To: <cTFLRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hey, that subject almost sounds like the name of a Techno Group...

Greetings, folks. This happens to be my First post here, lets hope it
works well.

The one thing that amazes me more than ANYTHING else about "Data
Security" is this: If you don't want John Q. Public reading it, don't put
it on a public net. If you don't want Smith the Hacker reading it, either
encrypt it, or keep it away from a computer with a modem connected to it.
Most of the information that is "Confidential" and "Hush Hush" is next to
useless to 99.9% of the population, .05% might actually have a use for
it, and .05% just think it's neato to say "Hey, look what I found." I
could understand pressing charges against someone who hacks his way into
a system, then crashes it, and actually causes damage. Then you are
costing people time and money. But what's the harm of looking? It all
comes down to the same old question... "Why'd you climb that mountain?"

Because it's there, folks. Because it's there.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 21 of 133
Subject: Re: Electronic Cowboys and the Information Age
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 92 15:22:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <Jq16TB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The difference is that climbing the mountain doesn't require subversive
tactics, unless you wanna climb Space Mountain after hours. I do think
that it is funny that in America, we have these "liability" laws,
suggesting that if you hop a fence, go swimming in someone's pool, and
drown, its their fault for having a pool. This doesn't seem to apply to
computers. People are not held liable for leaving their dirty laundry
laying around. Nevertheless, most companies/organizations consider their
computers to be private property, and they dno't understand that hooking
said computer up to the net makes their hardware more public. The
distinction is lost, somewhere, and I really think that serous time and
considera{_tion will be needed to make applicable laws for computers that
are accessible by phone or telnet. On the other hand, if they are going
to arrest hackers for "lying" about who they are in order to gain access,
then they should arrest anone who lies about who they are to gain information.
Including reporters, collection agencies, and what not. Really, what is
the difference between fooling a stupid system and fooling a stupid person?

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 22 of 133
Subject: Re: Electronic Cowboys and the Information Age
From: deathlok (Keith Mezzina)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 19:13:29 EST
In-Reply-To: <64w9TB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I think the difference comes down to this: When you fool a stupid
computer, you offend a bunch of folks; The system administrators, the
programmers, and the whole taco. When you fool one person, it's more
personal. Who wants to admit they were strung along? (Pardon the rather
chopped up style of the last post, I was almost asleep at the keyboard.)

I DO agree with the bit on misdirection on the part of the 'Guilty'
parties. What's the difference between a reporter that lies to someone to
about his identity to get a story, a cop who does the same thing to make
an arrest, and a hacker who lies about his ID to gain access to a system?
Well, the reporter and the cop have a whole lot of people standing behind
them saying "It's in the public's interest and welfare." Nobody stands
behind the hackers. It's about numbers and popularity.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 23 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: fetus (Gregory Hempel)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 92 03:28:32 EST

ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com (c@:mg) writes:

> I run a mailing list dedicated to talking about cyberpunk (in the literal
> and cultural sense), vr, vcomputer underground, industrial music/culture,
> chaos theory, and whatever else...basically it's geared for "the future
> and fringes of culture"...It's called FutureCulture...If you'd like to
> subscribe to this on-line mailing list, send mail to
> 'future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu' asking for more info or asking to
> subscribe...
>
> BTW - I've also typed up this huge "cyberography" that lists suggested
> books, magazines, BBSes, music, and all sorts of shit the cyber crowd is
> into..It's around 100k....Bruce Sterling, Steve Brown of SF Eye, St Jude
> of Mondo, are some of the people who've had nice things to say about
> it...It's also appeared in some on-line publications..Anybody who's
> interested in this file, send mail to the above address - it'll be
> auto-sent to you when/if you subscribe to my list, to...
>

We some where along the line and I dont know how some one sent via UUPC
a Future Culture to my system. Go figure... And well I was interested in
where exactly the KrackerBox was at??? The number in the MOndo is wrong
the nmber in the FC is wrong etc etc... Help???

FeTuS

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 24 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 92 22:40:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <0D29uB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Don't call the Kracker Box...It changed numbers, and is now run by a
guy who, well, honestly I don't know too well...My friend Rober
(oops Robert) Scorpio did all the funk-e programming, and modded the
software beyond belief (word has it the creators call it once and
didn't recognize it...And, of course, backdoors were removed very
carefully)...At any rate, Scopio doesn't call it anymore, nor do I...
And the guy who runs it now doesn't care much about it, and is foolish
enough to let an idiot hacker borrow his account and run Crack from
it...At any rate, that hacker guy got caught hacking into Nyx and
some other places recently, Scorpio has more important things to do,
as do I, thus the Kracker Box is not rreally supported by it's
Originators (the 2 who labored over 2 5 1/4's and an Apple //e)...

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 25 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: fetus (Gregory Hempel)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 92 05:13:01 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZqiaVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well it seems that the Mondo had the number listed, I had the old one
St.Jude didnt know. They feel really stupid and told them that they
should have checked first, but thats in the past...

Ok. I still really not up on the whole idea behind all of this. I really
got in here cuase I like the mail, like reading and what not, Ive read
about and had a couple friend who were the hacker types. Good at that.
But never really got into the stuff my self. How ever I do collect
magazines (Online) and what ever else for the sake of reading and
collecting, all of which is available through my BBS. I was wondering,
since I do get the INET.EFF.TALK & INET.EFF.NEWS if the FC's are placed
there? Or If by some means I can get them sent to FIDO 1:130/603 ?

If this is at all possible I would really like to get on that listing.
Also am working on UFGATE at the moment and have it working rather well ,
BUT I still need a place to get them from local (Dallas/FtWorth) but am
having no real luck... Who knows...

Any way, leaving the Cyberpunk behind, I figure I should get back to
that. I just faxed a article to StJude @ Mondo and this should be in the
Jan/Feb issue. Contains a listing of BBS's that I have called and found
to be either unique in interest or just plain neat. Sooooo I was
wondering if you can direct me to a BBS list (possibly) that would have
some GOOD "alternative" BBS's.

Appreciate any help!

FeTuS

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 26 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 92 11:50:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <ew1aVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

FutureCulture is an on-line email list, not like a newsgroup
(like comp.org.eff.talk)....To subscribe, send mail to
future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu with the subject 'send info', and then
decide which format you want to receive the list in. You can get a
copy of the FAQ at any time by mailing to the same address with
'send faq'....But my homemade piece-o-crap listserver has been
behaving very odd lately, so, let me know if you don't get what you
requested....

BTW, that FAQ has a evergrowing pulsating list of BBSes....

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 27 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: fetus (Gregory Hempel)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 92 01:54:31 EST

ahawks (Andy Hawks) writes:

> FutureCulture is an on-line email list, not like a newsgroup
> (like comp.org.eff.talk)....To subscribe, send mail to
> future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu with the subject 'send info', and then
> decide which format you want to receive the list in. You can get a
> copy of the FAQ at any time by mailing to the same address with
> requested....

Oh, I know what it is, I have a couple of them. I was wondering if you
can gate it or some how send it through a fido gate to my system?

Thanks!
Fetus

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 28 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: inhuman (inhuman inhuman)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 92 22:28:02 EST
In-Reply-To: <k2geVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Is there someplace I can FTP Future Culture digests or something?
I got a user on my BBS who claimed to have gotten the number from the
Future Culture newsletter. I thought he had said it was related to the
WELL, but I could be mistaken. I'm just curious to see in what context
my board was mentioned. Are there any archives?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 29 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 92 18:20:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <F62FVB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I have no idea what the hell that meant, but, I think you want the FC
FAQ...Mail to future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu with 'send faq' somewhere
in there....

As far as gating FC to newsgroup/echo, *I* can't do that...I just
run the list...It's up to individual sysadmins to do that, but, you
certainly can receive it that way if you figure out how...

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 30 of 133
Subject: Re: plug-plug-plug-plug
From: reid (Ron Wilhelm)
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 92 21:33:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <iDLHVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The ftp site for the alt.cyberpunk group is milton.u.washington.edu you
can get the latest version of the alt.cyberpunk FAQ there. I think he has
the Future Culture FAQ there too, but it's not the latest version. THe
directory is /public/alt.cyberpunk. There's Virtual Reality stuff there,
but I forget the directory. I think it's /public/virtual-worlds.

reid

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 31 of 133
Subject: Cyberpunk & Futureculture
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 10:43:30 EST
In-Reply-To: <20THVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

All that stuff is in the Archives already, both authors of the faqs are on
Mindvox, the question I have is can we gate Futureculture into one of the
Mindvox groups so that we can read it and reply to it as a system instead
of all these people getting seperate copies of the same thing. I know at
least 25 people here who get futureculture, inlucluding me and I read
someone elses' copy of it. Just a htougth

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 32 of 133
Subject: Re: Cyberpunk & Futureculture
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 20:48:52 EST
In-Reply-To: <8uuiVB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hhmmm, welp, honestly, I don't know how to go about doing that, but
it's certainly ok by me....

However, you might want to aoid it for at least awhile since futcult
in realtime mode has no filter - everything sent to the address gets
sent out, which means "unsub me d00d" and mailer errors occasionally
get sent there....

Another guy at my site is busy tring to install procmail, which would
clean everything up and make the list a lot smoother, yet, I tried
to install procmail before, but was unsusccessful....But, since then
Nyx has changed to a Sun platform, and, who knows, it might work
now....

We'll haveta wait and see, I guess...

At any rate, most people who gate it to a newsgroup just subscribe in
realtime or digest with an alias like "future@mindvox.phatom.com"
and everything sent to future@mindvox gets bounced to a forum
(somehow, that's the part I don't know how to do)....

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 33 of 133
Subject: Agrippa Sterling & Gibson
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 18:43:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <6VmJVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

According to what went down in IRC a few minutes ago Bruce Sterling was
talking to William Gibson today, who is aware that Agrippa was cracked and
is online MindVox. The real copy is here, Sterling was sent a copy of it
and called Kroupa today to relay Gibson's best wishes and say that this
was a "planned progression" of his work. Mindvox has some kind of deal
that it is allowed to keep agrippa online.

Would somebody (Sterling, Kroupa, anyone?) please back this up or deny it!

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 34 of 133
Subject: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: tomlin (James Tomlin)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 15:42:39 EST
In-Reply-To: <6VmJVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Having read Sterling's Hacker Crackdown (Damn good read), my appetite
for more cyberpunk/cyberspace books has increased. Anyone have and good
suggestions?
Thanks

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 35 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: jagged (Alexander Garrett)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 19:12:04 EST
In-Reply-To: <sPcuVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Now, is it just me, or did _Hacker_Crackdown_ seem like one of those
"anthropologist investigates some primitive culture and relates the
peculiarities of said culture to the happy-at-home public". A sort of
objective eye/I tale. I'm not quite sure what Sterling was trying to say.
If on one hand he was trying to present an objective and on all sides
fair overview of the hacker/law/civil_libertarian viewpoint, he used some
pretty loaded words/phrases that colored his communication and distorted
what he was trying to say (IMHO). On the other hand, if he was trying to
make a point somewhere along the line about truth, justice, || the
american way, I missed it. And what was the bit with the street people
again? That was kind of weird.

Alex "I know Derrida, I've read Derrida and you're no Derrida" Garrett.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 36 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 23:17:36 EST
In-Reply-To: <TemuVB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'm not sure that Sterling is properly labeled as an "anthropologist"
looking at a "primitive culture." He's one of the original cyberpunk
sci-fi writers. He's written much on his own (eg, "Islands in the Net")
and co-author The Difference Engine with Gibson. His purpose was
simply to chronicle the events of the 90s, and he did a decent job.

What, specifically, did you find objectionable?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 37 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: jcrome (Johnny Monocrome)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 23:52:53 EST

I thought it was a great book. sometimes it wandered and hiped and hoped
here and there, but I like that in a book. Whatever the object of the
book was (anthropohlogy or just social history...) it told the story
of The Hacker Crackdown. The parts like the street person gave it
flavor, a personal touch, so as not to be a textbbok study into whatever
maybe. I personaly dislked the quotes in the middle of the pages.
And iss it fone wire that is supposed to be surrunding the quotes.?

sorry for spealing misktakes, too long w/ no sleep.

Johnny Monocrome

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 38 of 133
Subject: gibson/sterling kroupa and agr1ppa
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 00:58:13 EST
In-Reply-To: <ueZuVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

There isn't that big a reading list I can think of offhand, I had a bigger
when when the system went suddenly down and then back up but reading
through the _editor.save file, it was a bad reply, so I'm better off not
reposting it.

Cyberpunk by Markoff and his ex-wife is one that comes up frequently.

something else that I'm more then a little po'ed about, I'm talking about
"Agr1ppa" and I'd like to get the real story and if in fact its being
pulled. From IRC last night I get :

AGR1PPA 2.01 - NEW & IMPROVED (Fixes Bugs from Version 2.00)
(A Book of The Mentally Disturbed -- Even FUNNIER than the original!)
Text by US@phantom.com
Etching by THOSE_PEOPLE@phantom.com
(C)1992 THE POWER COMPUTER (In My Mind Since 1979)
syberspa(e
All Bytes Preserved

And then tonight God came down from the mountain and spoke to Kroupa.
William Gibson called him on the phone to talk to him. And Kroupa pulled
it out of "respect for Gibson's work" which I think is a crock. It's a
joke, if Gibson can't take a joke, then why bother............

I am totally angry at this, it is extremely cool that William Gibson is
into all this and behind Mindvox, its almost like the God of cyberpunk
smiling on it all, but I think its a total crock that something which is
obviously a joke can get pulled because Gibson might frown and get upset.

My unasked for .02 cents.

1) Since email takes about 4 weeks to get back, why are the actual
participants never in IRC and always "people who just talked to them"

2) if this is true, why? Why pull something, thats almost censorship. If
gibson said "I dont like this about phantom access and I won't put you
guys into a story if you don't change it" would you?

Maybe I'm being a jerk and putting my foot into the middle of something
that isn't mine to do, but I am totally furious that Gibson can snap his
fingers and make this type of shit happen!

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 39 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: jagged (Alexander Garrett)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:58:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <2RXuVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, I didn't find anything particularily /objectionable/. I couldn't
tell whether he was trying to make a point or merely provide an objective
history (if there is any such animal) of the events which occurred. If
the former, I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Cops good,
hackers bad? Hackers good, cops bad? Hackers misunderstood, cops
misunderstood, civil libertarians ready to take a stand on anything? And
like I said, the street person part seemed out of place. For a brief
moment, it seemed like he was going to tie it all together and then
missed the boat.

If the latter (objective history), then he seemed to be using loaded
statements fairly often. This may be due to his background in writing
very intense and dramatic literature. Perhaps he can't seperate himself
emotionally from the events he's portraying. At times, though, he seemed
to alternately ridicule, and laud. I just had a difficult time trying to
figure out where he was coming from.

As far as the information content goes, I thought it was a marvelous
book. To quote the eminent Lex Luthor, "I learned a lot." :-)

Alex

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 40 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:54:29 EST

jagged (Alexander Garrett) writes:

>
> As far as the information content goes, I thought it was a marvelous
> book. To quote the eminent Lex Luthor, "I learned a lot." :-)
>

To quote the emminent Lex Luthor from this system "They took my quote out
of context. What can I expect, sigh."

What/where huh? Agr1ppa?

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 41 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: brendan (Brendan Kehoe)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 18:30:51 EST

tomlin (James Tomlin) writes:

> Having read Sterling's Hacker Crackdown (Damn good read), my appetite
> for more cyberpunk/cyberspace books has increased. Anyone have and good
> suggestions?

"Hackers" by Steven Levy, "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Cliff Stoll, and
"Cyberpunks" by Katie Hafner and John Markoff.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 42 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:18:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <5T0XVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Or get the mong0id futureculture faq....Lists lots of real cp-sf,
slipstream, computer stuff (off-hand Brendan missed COmputers Under
Attack, ed. by Peter J. Denning), lots of other books....
and lots of other stuff....send to future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu
w/ sub 'send faq'....

Hey, I just heard about this thing called Agrippa...looks like Gibson's
new book....Anyone know where I can get a copy?

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 43 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 02:11:19 EST

ahawks (Andy Hawks) writes:

> Hey, I just heard about this thing called Agrippa...looks like Gibson's
> new book....Anyone know where I can get a copy?
>

That was subtle :) You're not.....BEING SARCASTIC r u?

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 44 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 11:42:14 EST
In-Reply-To: <k6uyVB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

ahawks (Andy Hawks) writes:

> Hey, I just heard about this thing called Agrippa...looks like Gibson's
> new book....Anyone know where I can get a copy?

deadboy (The Dead): writes:

> That was subtle :) You're not.....BEING SARCASTIC r u?

Well, at least you caught the sarcasm this time. Very good, you're improving.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 45 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:48:08 EST

simonm (Simon Moon) writes:

> ahawks (Andy Hawks) writes:
>
> > Hey, I just heard about this thing called Agrippa...looks like Gibson's
> > new book....Anyone know where I can get a copy?
>
> deadboy (The Dead): writes:
>
> > That was subtle :) You're not.....BEING SARCASTIC r u?
>
> Well, at least you caught the sarcasm this time. Very good, you're improving.
>

Simon, had too much coffee today dude? Three messages on three boards so
far I've read and every one of yours is bitchy and sarcastic. Not that I'm
against bitchy and sarcastic, but .........ever consider therapy or
members of the opposite sex or even the same sex?
Reading his message he asked what "Agr1ppa" is, over which there was some
question on mailing lists in the near past because Patrick wrote something
called that, which was supposed to be a parody of Agrippa.

RTFM

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 46 of 133
Subject: Re: Sterling/Cyberpunk bookks
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 21:36:16 EST
In-Reply-To: <Xi3ZVB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

not that this matters or belongs anywhere but someone brought up the fact
that i pay for this system so why not waste the resources...

but i would like to say that the comment that 3jane made was perfectly
plausible post had not 3jane made itr
so why dont yall back off
DeadBoy posts interestinbg stuff usu
and its a bit better than i could do
cuz i just post stuff
and so what if something gtets bitten cuz of a bitchy post
then life is like a rotting worm flying through the sky
eating up all the little piggies
that suck out the blood of tomatoes like bunnicula
and man if god could make the moon then why cant
he jump out of airplanes just cuz he wants to
or wear dr schols sandalls and have green wings
and mom and dad went to a show and dropped me off at grandma joes and
after dinner we had i ce cream and i fell asleep and watched tv
and i woke up in my mothers arms
and its been too long since i heard this song
but i like to sing along
and i like to shoot my gun

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 47 of 133
Subject: SJG
From: belgo (Chris Shepherd)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 15:46:46 EST

This might be of interest to you who wanna order "Hacker" for the
holidays.. Steve Jackson Games's Phone Number is: 512-447-7866 ... I
spent all day hunting for it so I could call them. Hope it does someone
else some good as well. :)

- Belgo

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 48 of 133
Subject: Re: SJG
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 00:07:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <NkR2VB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hunting all day ???

Geez, I've known the number for years ... don't hunt .. ask me.

If you don't have access to their BBS (not InterNet accessible!) or it's
too excessive, just ask me (I call often enough, and keep *reaonably*
up-to-date) ...

GRUPS Geek, etc. ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 49 of 133
Subject: Article in Texas Monthly
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 01:29:57 EST

(cross-posted from Convergence)

I urge you all to run down to the local newstand and pick up the Jan.93
issue of Texas Monthly magazine. There is a lengthy article in it titled
_The Clash of the Cyberpunks_ by Gary Cartwright. The entire piece focuses
on the feud between Mark Abene (Phiber Optik) and Chris Goggans (Erik
Bloodaxe). I cannot comment on its accuracy, but it is a superb read and
seems to be fundamentally unbiased in its commentary.

Included with the text is a quarter-page portrait of Mark Abene, and a
full-page, color toned professional portrait of Chris Goggans. The story
is literate, well organized, very detailed, and very long. Cartwright did
a review of _The Hacker Crackdown_ last month and had less than a page.
This story covers 6 to 7 pages of text in fairly fine print.

I am genuinely anxious to hear comments from the folks actually involved in
this episode...Particularly in reference to the article's accuracy. A
great deal of the history of LOD and MOD is covered from the perspectives
of both groups. After the Geraldo Show and the crap that Forbes published
under the guise of journalism, this article provided a much needed breath
of fresh air.

Read it soon!

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 50 of 133
Subject: Re: Article in Texas Monthly
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 03:19:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <mki3VB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Falconer, don't take this the wrong way, I worship you in writing and all
but why did you post that one article in 3 places into my newscan already!
I know the boards are dis-organized and changing around an all, but I have
this feeling that before my quickscan ends I'm going to see it at least 3
more times :)

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 51 of 133
Subject: Re: Article in Texas Monthly
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 10:53:11 EST
In-Reply-To: <DmN3VB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

No offense taken, and there is a reason for cross-posting the message.
It's really very simple...Vox is getting pretty big. I certainly could be
wrong, but I don't believe that everyone is joined to all the forums
anymore. In my own case, the reading became such an immense task that I
dropped all the music forums. I assume, and it is only an assumption, that
other folks on Vox are doing the same thing.

I don't want to turn it into Usenet, but cross-posting the notice about
the article seemed to be a sensible thing to do. The piece needed to be in
Convergence as I certainly hope that most subscribers to Vox read that
forum. It also felt very appropriate to cross-p it to Cyberpunk, Hacking,
and Miscellaneous Publications as those were at the heart of the story. As
I really have no way of knowing who reads what anymore, it was the only
way to know for sure that all interested parties would see it.

Nick, I don't do it often, but I feel that article merits a read by
everyone on Vox. It could be pure bullshit. But if it is, it's some of the
best written bullshit I've ever read...I know that Mark is not on the
system anymore, but Chris Goggans is and I'd really like to hear what he
has to say about the story. I've been reading Gary Cartwright's work for
quite awhile and he's always seemed very credible...but after the Forbe's
trash, I'd like to hear it from someone that actually knows the truth.

It's like Ripley says, "I say we go to the Sulaco and nuke the site from
orbit. It's the only way to be sure."

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 52 of 133
Subject: Re: Article in Texas Monthly
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 15:19:05 EST

falconer (Steve Copold) writes:

> anymore. In my own case, the reading became such an immense task that I

Yo, falc, d00d, get Hooked on Phonics, and the USE it. And quit moving
your lips when you read, that alone will add 50 wpm...

-3j

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 53 of 133
Subject: Re: Article in Texas Monthly
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 16:45:49 EST

bwp (Jane Doe) writes:

> Yo, falc, d00d, get Hooked on Phonics, and the USE it. And quit moving
> your lips when you read, that alone will add 50 wpm...

Okay Jane, but I want no complaints from you about going too fast when I
read to you. Until you learn to do it for yourself (I know you can do SOME
things for yourself...Unfortunately, reading not being one of them), I
thought it would be a good idea to keep it slow. I wouldn't want to exceed
your maximum rate of comprehension...Which we both know is below 50 wpm.

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 54 of 133
Subject: Hooked on phonics
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 18:46:35 EST
In-Reply-To: <3yo4VB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Is it just me or does anyone else find it sincerely ironic that the
phone number for hooked on phonics is 1.800.ABCDEFG.....

Sounds like a prank....I'd call 'em, but I don't speak English, and I
can't read....Guess I'l haveta go on being illiterate for the rest of my
life....

ObCP: My FutureCulture FAQ is being released again in a couple weeks...
More info follows....
tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow....

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 55 of 133
Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 19:00:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <cku4VB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Where can I pick up a copy of Texas Monthly? Anywhere besides
the big Lone Star? Also, thank you for cross posting it, because I only
read it once in my newscan, so I might have missed it otherwise.

---
Inhuman (inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com)
"The truth? The truth, Lazarus, is perhaps something so unbearable, so
terrible, something so deadly, that simple people could not live with
it!" -Miguel de Unamuno, _Saint Emmanuel the Good, Martyr_

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 56 of 133
Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 00:32:22 EST

ahawks (Andy Hawks) writes:

> Is it just me or does anyone else find it sincerely ironic that the
> phone number for hooked on phonics is 1.800.ABCDEFG.....

I don't find it ironic...literacy education in this country is a joke.
About ten years ago, my father decided to join a program to help teach
others to read. After spending about two months taking "How-to-teach"
courses and "graduating", he was given the name of his first pupil. How
should he contact this guy? "Write him a letter."

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 57 of 133
Subject: Re: Hooked on phonics
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 14:23:17 EST

inhuman (Inhuman) writes:

> Where can I pick up a copy of Texas Monthly? Anywhere besides
> the big Lone Star? Also, thank you for cross posting it, because I only
> read it once in my newscan, so I might have missed it otherwise.
>
Just called Waldenbooks here on the West Coast - Bay Area. Seems they
do have Texas Monthly which gives me the impression that any decent
newsstand/bookStore should have it.

Comments forthcoming.

dex.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 58 of 133
Subject: Lone Star Monthly
From: pyrus (Pyrus)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 17:29:03 EST
In-Reply-To: <i2c6VB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The "Clash of the Cyberpunks" article is a good one.. recommened to
anyone who wants to be informed/enjoy some good reading.

To those who are in the middle of nowhere (isn't Texas Monthly read
everywhere, though?) I hate to say that I will photocopy the article for
you (it being copyrighted and all), but I will mail you the Jan'93 or
whatever.. leave me email here.

pyrus (deep in the heart of texas)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 59 of 133
Subject: Text Barrage!
From: bruces (Bruce Sterling)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 01:53:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <5ya0VB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Bruce Sterling
bruces@well.sf.ca.us

Literary Freeware --- Not For Commercial Use

Bruce Sterling's Idea of What Every Well-Appointed "Cyberpunk SF" Library
Collection Should Possess (circa Dec 92)

The Canon:

BURNING CHROME William Gibson
Gibson's short stories.
NEUROMANCER, COUNT ZERO, MONA LISA OVERDRIVE William Gibson
The "Cyberspace Trilogy."
MIRRORSHADES THE CYBERPUNK ANTHOLOGY Bruce Sterling ed.
Useful pointer to actual no-kidding Movement Cyberpunks.
MINDPLAYERS Pat Cadigan
Her best novel. An absolute must-have.
HEATSEEKER John Shirley
Shirley's short-stories. His most significant and influential work.
DESERTED CITIES OF THE HEART Lewis Shiner
Shiner's best SF novel.
SLAM Lewis Shiner
Intriguing cyberpunk mainstream non-genre novel.
SOFTWARE and WETWARE Rudy Rucker
Best-known novels of deranged math-professor/hacker/cyberpunk.
TRANSREAL Rudy Rucker
Every short piece Rucker ever wrote. Enormous. Like being hit
in the head with a bowling ball.
BLOOD MUSIC Greg Bear
Bear's most c-wordish book.
CRYSTAL EXPRESS Bruce Sterling
Sterling's short work.
SCHISMATRIX Bruce Sterling
Posthuman space opera.
ISLANDS IN THE NET Bruce Sterling
21st-century global information politics.
THE DIFFERENCE ENGINE William Gibson and Bruce Sterling
19th-century cyberpunk by subgenre's foremost critics'-darlings.

Other Useful Fiction:

HALO Tom Maddox
Remarkable SF treatment of robots and artificial intelligence.
GLOBALHEAD Bruce Sterling
Sterling's second story collection.
PATTERNS Pat Cadigan
Cadigan's short work. Great range of topics and treatments.
SYNNERS Pat Cadigan
Cadigan's well-received second novel.
FRONTERA Lewis Shiner
Shiner's first novel, about mission to Mars.
LOOK INTO THE SUN James Patrick Kelly
Interesting novel by peripheral cyberpunk.
ARACHNE Lisa Mason
Cyberspace robots vs drug-addict San Francisco lawyer-careerists.
Weirdissimo.
SNOW CRASH Neal Stephenson
Fine example of second-generation cyberpunk by Seattle hacker.
HARDWIRED Walter Jon Williams
Williams' most successful effort.
SPACETIME DONUTS, WHITE LIGHT Rudy Rucker
Rucker's early novels. Brilliantly deranged.
INVOLUTION OCEAN, THE ARTIFICIAL KID Bruce Sterling
Sterling's first two novels. SF adventures.
SEMIOTEXT(E) SF Rudy Rucker, Peter Lamborn Wilson, Robert Anton Wilson, eds.
Story anthology of bad craziness. Quite likely to cause protests
from scandalized parents and censors.

Magazines

MONDO 2000.
"Cyberpunk" as glossy West Coast fashion magazine. It Had To Happen.
bOING bOING Ultra-happening cyberslacker antizine from the heart of
digitized desktop bohemia.
ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE.
Least reactionary of the standard American SF magazines.

INTERZONE
Foremost British SF magazine. Libraries should carry this worthy
zine as a public service, since individual US subscriptions are costly.
SCIENCE FICTION EYE
More-or-less official lit-crit organ of cyberpunk SF and assorted
fellow-travellers. Like most fanzines, sadly sporadic.
SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES
Dull gray academic rag seized in startling coup by wacky
post-modernists. Now almost readable!

Non-Fiction, Critical Studies

STORMING THE REALITY STUDIO Larry McCaffery ed.
Cyberpunk's man-in-academe gives his highly postmodern take on
matters in this bug-crusher anthology.
CYBERPUNK: OUTLAWS AND HACKERS ON THE COMPUTER FRONTIER by Katie Hafner
and John Markoff.
The best book to date on the outlaw "computer underground."
ACROSS THE WOUNDED GALAXIES Larry McCaffery ed.
McCaffery interviews various weirdo leading-lights of pomo SF,
including Gibson and Sterling.
THE HACKER CRACKDOWN, LAW AND DISORDER ON THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER by Bruce
Sterling. It's not just for breakfast any more.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 60 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: bruces (Bruce Sterling)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 01:56:54 EST
In-Reply-To: <DBiFwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Science Fiction Research Association
June 1992
Bruce Sterling (bruces@well.sf.ca.us)

WHOLE EARTH REVIEW
P. O Box 38
Sausalito, CA 94966-9932
$20/yr; four issues

MONDO 2000
P O Box 10171
Berkeley, CA 94709-5171
$24 five issues more or less quarterly

bOING bOING (World's Greatest Neurozine)
11288 Ventura Blvd #818
Studio City CA 91604
$14/ 4 issues kind of quarterly

SCIENCE FICTION EYE
P O Box 18539
Asheville, NC 28814
$10 three issues; two a year, more or less

ISAAC ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION MAGAZINE
P O Box 7058
Red Oak, IA 51591-2058
$34.95 thirteen issues a year

THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION
P O Box 56
Cornwall, CT 06753
$26 twelve issues a year

SCIENCE FICTION STUDIES
SF-TH Inc.
Arthur B. Evans
East College
DePauw University
Greencastle, IN 46135-0037
$14 three issues/yr

Mark Ziesing Books
PO Box 76
Shingletown, CA 96088
$1/ catalog

Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link (WELL)
27 Gate Five Rd
Sausalito CA 94966
$15/mo; $2/hr
(415) 332-4335

ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION
155 Second Street
Cambridge MA 02141
EFFector 4 times/ yr
eff@eff.org
$20/yr students, $40/ yr others

FUTURE CULTURE FAQ
ahawks@isis.cs.du.edu

Computers and Academic Freedom
listserv@eff.org <add comp-academic-freedom-news>

Computer Underground Digest
tk0jut2@niu.bitnet

Phrack
phracksub@stormking.com

RISKS Digest
risks-request@csl.sri.com

Media Magic
PO Box 507
Nicasio, CA 94946
415.662.2426
computer graphics/ chaos/ scientific visualization/ cyberspace/ virtual
reality
free catalog

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 61 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: bruces (Bruce Sterling)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 01:59:25 EST
In-Reply-To: <JHiFwB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Bruce Sterling
bruces@well.sf.ca.us

Literary Freeware -- Not for Commercial Use

From THE MAGAZINE OF FANTASY AND SCIENCE FICTION, Feb 1993.
F&SF, Box 56, Cornwall CT 06753 $26/yr USA $31/yr other

F&SF Science Column #5
INTERNET

Some thirty years ago, the RAND Corporation, America's
foremost Cold War think-tank, faced a strange strategic problem. How
could the US authorities successfully communicate after a nuclear
war?
Postnuclear America would need a command-and-control
network, linked from city to city, state to state, base to base. But no
matter how thoroughly that network was armored or protected, its
switches and wiring would always be vulnerable to the impact of
atomic bombs. A nuclear attack would reduce any
conceivable network to tatters.
And how would the network itself be commanded and
controlled? Any central authority, any network central citadel, would
be an obvious and immediate target for an enemy missile. The
center of the network would be the very first place to go.
RAND mulled over this grim puzzle in deep military secrecy,
and arrived at a daring solution. The RAND proposal (the brainchild
of RAND staffer Paul Baran) was made public in 1964. In the first
place, the network would *have no central authority.* Furthermore,
it would be *designed from the beginning to operate while
in tatters.*
The principles were simple. The network itself would be
assumed to be unreliable at all times. It would be designed from the
get-go to transcend its own unreliability. All the nodes in the network
would be equal in status to all other nodes, each node with its own
authority to originate, pass, and receive messages. The
messages themselves would be divided into packets, each packet
separately addressed. Each packet would begin at some specified
source node, and end at some other specified destination node. Each
packet would wind its way through the network on an individual
basis.
The particular route that the packet took would be unimportant.
Only final results would count. Basically, the packet would be tossed
like a hot potato from node to node to node, more or less in the
direction of its destination, until it ended up in the proper place. If
big pieces of the network had been blown away, that simply
wouldn't matter; the packets would still stay airborne, lateralled
wildly across the field by whatever nodes happened to survive. This
rather haphazard delivery system might be "inefficient" in the usual
sense (especially compared to, say, the telephone system) -- but it
would be extremely rugged.
During the 60s, this intriguing concept of a decentralized,
blastproof, packet-switching network was kicked around by RAND,
MIT and UCLA. The National Physical Laboratory in Great Britain set
up the first test network on these principles in 1968. Shortly
afterward, the Pentagon's Advanced Research Projects Agency decided
to fund a larger, more ambitious project in the USA. The nodes of the
network were to be high-speed supercomputers (or what passed for
supercomputers at the time). These were rare and valuable machines
which were in real need of good solid networking, for the sake of
national research-and-development projects.
In fall 1969, the first such node was installed in UCLA. By
December 1969, there were four nodes on the infant network, which
was named ARPANET, after its Pentagon sponsor.
The four computers could transfer data on dedicated high-
speed transmission lines. They could even be programmed remotely
from the other nodes. Thanks to ARPANET, scientists and researchers
could share one another's computer facilities by long-distance. This
was a very handy service, for computer-time was precious in the
early '70s. In 1971 there were fifteen nodes in ARPANET; by 1972,
thirty-seven nodes. And it was good.
By the second year of operation, however, an odd fact became
clear. ARPANET's users had warped the computer-sharing network
into a dedicated, high-speed, federally subsidized electronic post-
office. The main traffic on ARPANET was not long-distance computing.
Instead, it was news and personal messages. Researchers were using
ARPANET to collaborate on projects, to trade notes on work,
and eventually, to downright gossip and schmooze. People had their
own personal user accounts on the ARPANET computers, and their
own personal addresses for electronic mail. Not only were they using
ARPANET for person-to-person communication, but they were very
enthusiastic about this particular service -- far more enthusiastic than
they were about long-distance computation.
It wasn't long before the invention of the mailing-list, an
ARPANET broadcasting technique in which an identical message could
be sent automatically to large numbers of network subscribers.
Interestingly, one of the first really big mailing-lists was "SF-
LOVERS," for science fiction fans. Discussing science fiction on
the network was not work-related and was frowned upon by many
ARPANET computer administrators, but this didn't stop it from
happening.
Throughout the '70s, ARPA's network grew. Its decentralized
structure made expansion easy. Unlike standard corporate computer
networks, the ARPA network could accommodate many different
kinds of machine. As long as individual machines could speak the
packet-switching lingua franca of the new, anarchic network, their
brand-names, and their content, and even their ownership, were
irrelevant.
The ARPA's original standard for communication was known as
NCP, "Network Control Protocol," but as time passed and the technique
advanced, NCP was superceded by a higher-level, more sophisticated
standard known as TCP/IP. TCP, or "Transmission Control Protocol,"
converts messages into streams of packets at the source, then
reassembles them back into messages at the destination. IP, or
"Internet Protocol," handles the addressing, seeing to it that packets
are routed across multiple nodes and even across multiple networks
with multiple standards -- not only ARPA's pioneering NCP standard,
but others like Ethernet, FDDI, and X.25.
As early as 1977, TCP/IP was being used by other networks to
link to ARPANET. ARPANET itself remained fairly tightly controlled,
at least until 1983, when its military segment broke off and became
MILNET. But TCP/IP linked them all. And ARPANET itself, though it
was growing, became a smaller and smaller neighborhood amid the
vastly growing galaxy of other linked machines.
As the '70s and '80s advanced, many very different social
groups found themselves in possession of powerful computers. It was
fairly easy to link these computers to the growing network-of-
networks. As the use of TCP/IP became more common, entire other
networks fell into the digital embrace of the Internet, and
messily adhered. Since the software called TCP/IP was public-domain,
and the basic technology was decentralized and rather anarchic by its
very nature, it was difficult to stop people from barging in and
linking up somewhere-or-other. In point of fact, nobody *wanted* to
stop them from joining this branching complex of networks, which
came to be known as the "Internet."
Connecting to the Internet cost the taxpayer little or nothing,
since each node was independent, and had to handle its own financing
and its own technical requirements. The more, the merrier. Like the
phone network, the computer network became steadily more valuable
as it embraced larger and larger territories of people and resources.
A fax machine is only valuable if *everybody else* has a fax
machine. Until they do, a fax machine is just a curiosity. ARPANET,
too, was a curiosity for a while. Then computer-networking became
an utter necessity.
In 1984 the National Science Foundation got into the act,
through its Office of Advanced Scientific Computing. The new NSFNET
set a blistering pace for technical advancement, linking newer, faster,
shinier supercomputers, through thicker, faster links, upgraded and
expanded, again and again, in 1986, 1988, 1990. And other
government agencies leapt in: NASA, the National Institutes of Health,
the Department of Energy, each of them maintaining a digital satrapy
in the Internet confederation.
The nodes in this growing network-of-networks were divvied
up into basic varieties. Foreign computers, and a few American ones,
chose to be denoted by their geographical locations. The others were
grouped by the six basic Internet "domains": gov, mil, edu, com, org
and net. (Graceless abbreviations such as this are a standard
feature of the TCP/IP protocols.) Gov, Mil, and Edu denoted
governmental, military and educational institutions, which were, of
course, the pioneers, since ARPANET had begun as a high-tech
research exercise in national security. Com, however, stood
for "commercial" institutions, which were soon bursting into the
network like rodeo bulls, surrounded by a dust-cloud of eager
nonprofit "orgs." (The "net" computers served as gateways between
networks.)
ARPANET itself formally expired in 1989, a happy victim of its
own overwhelming success. Its users scarcely noticed, for ARPANET's
functions not only continued but steadily improved. The use of
TCP/IP standards for computer networking is now global. In 1971, a
mere twenty-one years ago, there were only four nodes in the
ARPANET network. Today there are tens of thousands of nodes in
the Internet, scattered over forty-two countries, with more coming
on-line every day. Three million, possibly four million people use
this gigantic mother-of-all-computer-networks.
The Internet is especially popular among scientists, and is
probably the most important scientific instrument of the late
twentieth century. The powerful, sophisticated access that it
provides to specialized data and personal communication
has sped up the pace of scientific research enormously.
The Internet's pace of growth in the early 1990s is spectacular,
almost ferocious. It is spreading faster than cellular phones, faster
than fax machines. Last year the Internet was growing at a rate of
twenty percent a *month.* The number of "host" machines with direct
connection to TCP/IP has been doubling every year since
1988. The Internet is moving out of its original base in military and
research institutions, into elementary and high schools, as well as into
public libraries and the commercial sector.
Why do people want to be "on the Internet?" One of the main
reasons is simple freedom. The Internet is a rare example of a true,
modern, functional anarchy. There is no "Internet Inc." There are
no official censors, no bosses, no board of directors, no stockholders.
In principle, any node can speak as a peer to any other node, as long
as it obeys the rules of the TCP/IP protocols, which are strictly
technical, not social or political. (There has been some struggle over
commercial use of the Internet, but that situation is changing as
businesses supply their own links).
The Internet is also a bargain. The Internet as a whole, unlike
the phone system, doesn't charge for long-distance service. And
unlike most commercial computer networks, it doesn't charge for
access time, either. In fact the "Internet" itself, which doesn't even
officially exist as an entity, never "charges" for anything. Each group
of people accessing the Internet is responsible for their own machine
and their own section of line.
The Internet's "anarchy" may seem strange or even unnatural,
but it makes a certain deep and basic sense. It's rather like the
"anarchy" of the English language. Nobody rents English, and nobody
owns English. As an English-speaking person, it's up to you to learn
how to speak English properly and make whatever use you please
of it (though the government provides certain subsidies to help you
learn to read and write a bit). Otherwise, everybody just sort of
pitches in, and somehow the thing evolves on its own, and somehow
turns out workable. And interesting. Fascinating, even. Though a lot
of people earn their living from using and exploiting and teaching
English, "English" as an institution is public property, a public good.
Much the same goes for the Internet. Would English be improved if
the "The English Language, Inc." had a board of directors and a chief
executive officer, or a President and a Congress? There'd probably be
a lot fewer new words in English, and a lot fewer new ideas.
People on the Internet feel much the same way about their own
institution. It's an institution that resists institutionalization.
The
Internet belongs to everyone and no one.
Still, its various interest groups all have a claim. Business
people want the Internet put on a sounder financial footing.
Government people want the Internet more fully regulated.
Academics want it dedicated exclusively to scholarly research.
Military people want it spy-proof and secure. And so on and so on.
All these sources of conflict remain in a stumbling balance
today, and the Internet, so far, remains in a thrivingly anarchical
condition. Once upon a time, the NSFnet's high-speed, high-capacity
lines were known as the "Internet Backbone," and their owners could
rather lord it over the rest of the Internet; but today there are
"backbones" in Canada, Japan, and Europe, and even privately owned
commercial Internet backbones specially created for carrying business
traffic. Today, even privately owned desktop computers can become
Internet nodes. You can carry one under your arm. Soon, perhaps, on
your wrist.
But what does one *do* with the Internet? Four things,
basically: mail, discussion groups, long-distance computing, and file
transfers.
Internet mail is "e-mail," electronic mail, faster by several
orders of magnitude than the US Mail, which is scornfully known by
Internet regulars as "snailmail." Internet mail is somewhat like fax.
It's electronic text. But you don't have to pay for it (at least not
directly), and it's global in scope. E-mail can also send software and
certain forms of compressed digital imagery. New forms of mail are in
the works.
The discussion groups, or "newsgroups," are a world of their
own. This world of news, debate and argument is generally known as
"USENET. " USENET is, in point of fact, quite different from the
Internet. USENET is rather like an enormous billowing crowd of
gossipy, news-hungry people, wandering in and through the
Internet on their way to various private backyard barbecues.
USENET is not so much a physical network as a set of social
conventions. In any case, at the moment there are some 2,500
separate newsgroups on USENET, and their discussions generate about
7 million words of typed commentary every single day. Naturally
there is a vast amount of talk about computers on USENET, but the
variety of subjects discussed is enormous, and it's growing larger all
the time. USENET also distributes various free electronic journals and
publications.
Both netnews and e-mail are very widely available, even
outside the high-speed core of the Internet itself. News and e-mail
are easily available over common phone-lines, from Internet fringe-
realms like BITnet, UUCP and Fidonet. The last two Internet services,
long-distance computing and file transfer, require what is known as
"direct Internet access" -- using TCP/IP.
Long-distance computing was an original inspiration for
ARPANET and is still a very useful service, at least for some.
Programmers can maintain accounts on distant, powerful computers,
run programs there or write their own. Scientists can make use of
powerful supercomputers a continent away. Libraries offer their
electronic card catalogs for free search. Enormous CD-ROM catalogs
are increasingly available through this service. And there are
fantastic amounts of free software available.
File transfers allow Internet users to access remote machines
and retrieve programs or text. Many Internet computers -- some
two thousand of them, so far -- allow any person to access them
anonymously, and to simply copy their public files, free of charge.
This is no small deal, since entire books can be transferred through
direct Internet access in a matter of minutes. Today, in 1992, there
are over a million such public files available to anyone who asks for
them (and many more millions of files are available to people with
accounts). Internet file-transfers are becoming a new form of
publishing, in which the reader simply electronically copies the work
on demand, in any quantity he or she wants, for free. New Internet
programs, such as "archie," "gopher," and "WAIS," have been
developed to catalog and explore these enormous archives of
material.
The headless, anarchic, million-limbed Internet is spreading like
bread-mold. Any computer of sufficient power is a potential spore
for the Internet, and today such computers sell for less than $2,000
and are in the hands of people all over the world. ARPA's network,
designed to assure control of a ravaged society after a nuclear
holocaust, has been superceded by its mutant child the Internet,
which is thoroughly out of control, and spreading exponentially
through the post-Cold War electronic global village. The spread of
the Internet in the 90s resembles the spread of personal
computing in the 1970s, though it is even faster and perhaps more
important. More important, perhaps, because it may give those
personal computers a means of cheap, easy storage and access that is
truly planetary in scale.
The future of the Internet bids fair to be bigger and
exponentially faster. Commercialization of the Internet is a very hot
topic today, with every manner of wild new commercial information-
service promised. The federal government, pleased with an unsought
success, is also still very much in the act. NREN, the National Research
and Education Network, was approved by the US Congress in fall
1991, as a five-year, $2 billion project to upgrade the Internet
"backbone." NREN will be some fifty times faster than the fastest
network available today, allowing the electronic transfer of the entire
Encyclopedia Britannica in one hot second. Computer networks
worldwide will feature 3-D animated graphics, radio and cellular
phone-links to portable computers, as well as fax, voice, and high-
definition television. A multimedia global circus!
Or so it's hoped -- and planned. The real Internet of the
future may bear very little resemblance to today's plans. Planning
has never seemed to have much to do with the seething, fungal
development of the Internet. After all, today's Internet bears
little resemblance to those original grim plans for RAND's post-
holocaust command grid. It's a fine and happy irony.
How does one get access to the Internet? Well -- if you don't
have a computer and a modem, get one. Your computer can act as a
terminal, and you can use an ordinary telephone line to connect to an
Internet-linked machine. These slower and simpler adjuncts to the
Internet can provide you with the netnews discussion groups and
your own e-mail address. These are services worth having -- though
if you only have mail and news, you're not actually "on the Internet"
proper.
If you're on a campus, your university may have direct
"dedicated access" to high-speed Internet TCP/IP lines. Apply for an
Internet account on a dedicated campus machine, and you may be
able to get those hot-dog long-distance computing and file-transfer
functions. Some cities, such as Cleveland, supply "freenet"
community access. Businesses increasingly have Internet access, and
are willing to sell it to subscribers. The standard fee is about $40 a
month -- about the same as TV cable service.
As the Nineties proceed, finding a link to the Internet will
become much cheaper and easier. Its ease of use will also improve,
which is fine news, for the savage UNIX interface of TCP/IP leaves
plenty of room for advancements in user-friendliness. Learning the
Internet now, or at least learning about it, is wise. By the
turn of the century, "network literacy," like "computer literacy"
before it, will be forcing itself into the very texture of your life.

For Further Reading:

The Whole Internet Catalog & User's Guide by Ed Krol. (1992) O'Reilly
and Associates, Inc. A clear, non-jargonized introduction to the
intimidating business of network literacy. Many computer-
documentation manuals attempt to be funny. Mr. Krol's book is
*actually* funny.

The Matrix: Computer Networks and Conferencing Systems Worldwide.
by John Quarterman. Digital Press: Bedford, MA. (1990) Massive and
highly technical compendium detailing the mind-boggling scope and
complexity of our newly networked planet.

The Internet Companion by Tracy LaQuey with Jeanne C. Ryer (1992)
Addison Wesley. Evangelical etiquette guide to the Internet featuring
anecdotal tales of life-changing Internet experiences. Foreword by
Senator Al Gore.

Zen and the Art of the Internet: A Beginner's Guide by Brendan P.
Kehoe (1992) Prentice Hall. Brief but useful Internet guide with
plenty of good advice on useful machines to paw over for data. Mr
Kehoe's guide bears the singularly wonderful distinction of being
available in electronic form free of charge. I'm doing the same
with all my F&SF Science articles, including, of course, this one. My
own Internet address is bruces@well.sf.ca.us.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 62 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 04:02:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <qLiFwB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Great article! I never knew RAND had a cyberchild!

CU
AUGAUCAUCGAUCGAUCGUACGCUAGCU A Think small
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| G RIBOZYME molecular biology
UACUAGUAGCUAGCUAGCAUGCGAUCGA A
UC

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Post: 63 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 04:32:11 EST
In-Reply-To: <waoFwB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Rand has several followers 'bout these parts ... ;)

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

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Post: 64 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 16:37:27 EST

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> Rand has several followers 'bout these parts ... ;)
>

Any other files I can check out on the venerable RAND?

CU
AUGAUCAUCGAUCGAUCGUACGCUAGCU A Think small
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| G RIBOZYME molecular biology
UACUAGUAGCUAGCUAGCAUGCGAUCGA A
UC

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Post: 65 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 18:20:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <59mgwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

> Any other files I can check out on the venerable RAND?

Not that I know of (offhand) ... but have you read her two best (IMHO)
works: ANTHEM and ATLAS SHRUGGED ?

I mean, let's tal;k about a society where individuality is at a minimum,
and tech is running backwards ... heck, a lightbulb ain' no big deal to us
now ...

Would that make Atlas Shrugged 'Paleo-Cyberpunk' (individual = little,
tech = deflated) ???

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Post: 66 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 10:26:36 EST

> Any other files I can check out on the venerable RAND?

the rand of the rand corporation and the rand of ayn rand are a bit different.

for the rand corporation, look in the library for some text on early 20th
century high-tech business, or stuff about elmer ambrose sperry (of sperry
rand, or remington-rand UNIVAC).

for ayn rand, _the_fountainhead_ is probably a better suggested reading
than _anthem._ while these books should probably not be burned, anyone who
bases their life philosophy on them should certainly be.

dug

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Post: 67 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 17:20:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <23TwwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, _The Fountainhead_ was made into quite the outstanding movie.

But _Anthem_ and _Atlas Shrugged_ are considered by most Rand-o-philes as
her best works.

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Post: 68 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: otto (Bob Otto Barnes)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 17:56:44 EST
In-Reply-To: <23TwwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hey y'all

The RAND corporation was an Air Force think tank formed in the late
50's and charged with Research ANd Development. Game theory was
developed there as was much of the H-bomb and it's strategy. RAND
proved that a conflict in Vietnam was unwinnable before we even entered
the war. The Air Force's reaction to that finding? They commisioned
another study. Once again it was unwinnable. More commisions were
done, but I don't know how many.

A professor of mine worked there in the early 60's. He ws a linguist
and computational theorist and he developed the first automatic
language translation program (Russian/English, of course). This project
ws not too sucessful: the example he gave was that when the phrase
"The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" was translated into Russian
and then back into english, it came out as "The wine is good but the meat
is bad." From all the reports I've heard, they certainly were a bunch
of Dr. Strangeloves.

I'm not sure if the RAND corp. is arround any more. It is, of course,
not related in any way shape or form to the Ingersoll-Rand company.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 69 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: mwark (McKenzie Wark)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 11:07:55 EST
In-Reply-To: <0weXwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Re RAND Corp. : Fred Kaplan's The Wizzards of Armageddon (Simon &
Schuster) is a great book on RAND and very readable. Bernard Brodie (ed)
The Absolute Weapon (1946) includes all of the conference papers from the
forum that kicked off RAND. The forum was organised by Leo Rosten, a real
renaissance man. He w He wrote comic jewish nvels, a pioneering analysis
of Hollywood, a RAND report on the possibility of earth-orbiting
satrellites. He wasn't at the proto-RAND conference because of the
opening night of The Velvet Touch - a movie he scripted, which was on at
the same time. Anyway, the Brodie papers make fascinating reading, now
that the cold war is 'over'. As for the other RAND - she was a
McCarthyite stooge. I hope she burns in hell.
cheers
ken

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Post: 70 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 03:58:10 EST
In-Reply-To: <wZF3wB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

mw, you sure you live in the same world as the rest of us, or is this an
adventure to reality for you ...

Rand & McCarthy .... jeez ...you haven't read the works (well, speeches
in one case) of the two, *obviously* ....

Jesse Helms is too left-wing for me ...

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Post: 71 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: mwark (McKenzie Wark)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 09:43:04 EST
In-Reply-To: <NRq4wB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Re Ayn Rand anfd the House Unamerican Activities c'tee, for which she
appeared as a friendly witness, see Victor Navasky, Naming Names:
"The proceedings had comic overtones... Novelist and objectivist Ayn Rand
found communist propaganda in the smiling faces of children in 'Song of
Russia." Which helped get Richard Collins on the blacklist (he scripted
it). The Leo Rosten story i related in the previous post is told (and
told better) in Fred Kaplan's book The Wizards of Armageddon. Actually
there are a few connections between the war machine and the media
industries which date from that era. The bombing simulators the air force
used employed a cine-camera and scale models. When the films were played
back, they were narrated by Capt. Ronald Reagan. Of course, VR has made
his old job obsolete! Naturally, i'll ignore the gratuitous insult in the
previous post. Everyone is entitled to their own reality, altho' a little
evidence helps!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 72 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 10:34:49 EST
In-Reply-To: <Hq74wB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

... then I sit corrected ... !!

But, it seems odd that someone who believed that Democrats were okay, and
that Communism was the real threat, and brought God into discussion
(though I can't recall how often) would have as a toadie someone who
wanted to dismantle as much of the government he was a part of is ...
well ... odd, wouldn't you say?!

Hey, trust me, I already "know" of enough conspiracies, thanks ...

I need to get back to that game of computer solitaire ...

Hmm, lessee, King of Clubs and <flip, flip, flip> Queen of Diamonds ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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Post: 73 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: mwark (McKenzie Wark)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 22:26:13 EST
In-Reply-To: <q594wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I was using 'McCarthyism' too loosely. It was a trend that predates him
but which as a shorthand gets called mccarthyism. You could go back to
the extermination of the Wobblies in WW1, the 'red bashing of the 20s
that hoover helped organise, the violence and blacklisting in the labour
movement in the late 40s and so on. What i hate about Rand is that she
was complicit with parts of this process. Beware of people who in
principle attack centres of power but in practice lend their name to
attacks by the most powerful on the lesser centres of organised power
within the state. Anyway, what does this have to do with cyberpunk? Lots,
i think. Cyberculture in the US fills a space which in Europe & Australia
is occupied by the kind of political and cultural forces that in the US
were wiped out by cold war repression. There is *still* a vaccuum there
that these strange and interesting developments whoosh into.
cheers
ken

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Post: 74 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 11:55:23 EST
In-Reply-To: <e365wB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Perhaps I take most Rand-ian thought to be a new "philosophy" fit for
C-punk ... at tleast the masses. Y'know (boiled down): "Do what you will
... so long as you don't screw with someone else (especially if you're the
government)"

Or is that too braod-based Libertarian?

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Post: 75 of 133
Subject: Ayn Rand: Devil Queen or Liberator of the Weak? (Was Re: Text Barrag
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 16:28:01 EST
In-Reply-To: <1728wB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, Chrm, that's part of it. But it seemed to me, on my grantedly-not-
very-deep readings, that there is a _hell_of_a_lot_ of other stuff in it
that is much more objectionable, mostly assumptions about human nature
that pervade her books as an unspoken basis. If your digest of minding-
your-own-business-ness was all there was to Rand's philosphy, I'd be the
first to sign up.

- Simon

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Post: 76 of 133
Subject: Re: Text Barrage!
From: mwark (McKenzie Wark)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 04:47:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <1728wB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

"Do what you will ... so long as you don't screw with someone else"
- thst's fine as far asi tgoes, but how far does it go?
You or i are able to make such a statement only because a whole bunch of
structures and processes we don't understand, running in the 'background'
as it were, enable us to appear to ourself as free agents. In practice,
EVERYTHING we do screws with someone else. A somewhat more elabotate
ethics is required (damn this noisy line!) in order to think about
something more than individual conduct.

For example, competative hacker-ethic achieves the goal of getting people
off their butts and trying to achieve something which others will think
as cool. Its a competative striving for recognition. It works fine for
getting certain things done and getting certain information moving around
the scene quickly. But it creates no durable sense of community.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 77 of 133
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand: Devil Queen or Liberator of the Weak? (Was Re: Text Ba
From: mwark (McKenzie Wark)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 04:57:41 EST
In-Reply-To: <eTe9wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

- what simon said.
There's no easy answers to the problem of living an ethical life.
You can't get it from books alone.
You can't get it from one book.

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Post: 78 of 133
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand: Devil Queen or Liberator of the Weak? (Was Re: Text Ba
From: jagged (Alexander Garrett)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 23:08:01 EST
In-Reply-To: <uiD0wB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Wasn't Atlanta Hope based on A.R.?
Lj

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Post: 79 of 133
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand: Devil Queen or Liberator of the Weak? (Was Re: Text Ba
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 00:38:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <3ZRaXB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Oh SURE. Here is this high-falootin' convo goin' on 'bout like ethics and
objectivism and all that sheet, and then you goes and ask 'bout some book
fittin' into da pitcher and all. I'ze just gettin' into the swing and
then boom the Wall hits. Or hell. I don't know what the hell I'm typing
anymore.

Yeah, I have to agree - 'cause someone is pointing a gun at me right now,
telling me I should - that living a "truly" ethical life is impossible.
At least, I think it is. The beauty of being human, as Card suggested in
Speaker For the Dead, is that we can have contradictory thoughts: we can
do something we know is wrong by deceiving ourself long enough to commit
the act. If we couldn't do this, we would no doubt go insane trying to
always do the supposed Right thing. And thus it is easier for us to
accept the immediacy of our actions when we discount the threads they may
bare down the proverbial (and cliche ridden) road.

To conclude, and to paraphrase Hemmingway, "bullshit is bullshit is
bullshit."

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

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Post: 80 of 133
Subject: Re: Ayn Rand: Devil Queen or Liberator of the Weak? (Was Re: Text Ba
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 18:19:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <76VaXB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

[echo off, 'coz I hate bothering wit' it!]

I wasn't suggesting Rand can be boiled down cohesively to one statement
... just that that's the primary (or salient, if you prefer) one I get
from her readings (or, should that be writings ... yeah, better).

Certainly, every action we take has repercussions, some of which *MAY*
harm others. Maybe because I'm on 'Vox right now, someone is getting a
busy signal while trying to call the guy who had the number I use before
me. Maybe he's gonna off himself, and desparately needed to talk to his
old friend. And maybe if he got me, I'd realize what was goin' on, and
talk him out of splattering his brains on the wall.

but let's be realistic.

insert an understood ("willful or knowing") into the "screw someone else"
phrase. Does that make it more pallatible <sp?>?
Intention and action. Not always the same. But certainly, our current
justice code is based on both (largely). "Criminal Mind" is required to
convict someone of most any real crime (one perpetrated against a person,
not some ambiguous "society" ... after all, if I have a right to face my
accuser, let society come forth and accuse me at a hearing!)

If I hack, read someone's diary, and do nothing with the information (take
no action based on it, and do not redistribute it) is it really a crime?
[ignoring the fact of how *damn* silly it'd be to keep a diary online ... ]
Nevertheless, have I taken (physically) anything from them? Opressed them
somehow?

[IMHO, that's a moral, not legal issue. I feel obliged _not_ to read
someone's diary. But I'm not here to enforce my morality on you.]

There was a book written not too long ago titled _Absorb What is Useful_.
I never read the book, just saw the title. How singularly brilliant!

Certainly, my readings of Nietzche, Rand, Machiavelli, Plato, Arisotle
[man, was *he* picky about theatre!], Sterling, Gibson, Moorcock,
Lovecraft, Schwarzenegger and the Christian Bible have all affected my
outlook on life (as well as other sources). But I certainly don't adhere
to the tenets of any one source completely (even Funakoshi or Musashi).

One test I prefer to apply to an outlook or philosophy, or world view is this:
If everyone in the world was you, and you all had this outlook, could you
live in this world? How about if everybody that lives here now did?

In my (simplified, perhaps overly so) example of "life, liberty and
property, so long as it doesn't screw with anyone", I honestly believe the
world would be a better place.
[of course, if everyone drove like I did, I think there'd be less
accidents, and everyone would get where they're going much more quickly,
too .... ]

Can any of you propose an alternate "philosophy" for the future that still
allows for person freedom, and that serves all people (or, perhaps,
treats) all people equally? And, how does it compare to the darker vision
of the future Gibson, Sterling, et alis have foreseen?

Just my thoughts for th' moments ..

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Post: 81 of 133
Subject: re:philosphies
From: reive (Racheline Maltese)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 22:59:22 EST
In-Reply-To: <wa0BXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I kind of agree with a lot of the last post, but one thing that was said
got me thinking....
Chrome Sync asked for others' philosphies for a liveable future, and
mentioned the darker outlooks of Gibson, Sterling, etc....
Am I just really twisted, to find the darkness in those books just a
little appealing? Most people I've talked to about Neuromancer in
particular were just a little spooked by how appealing they did find it
at times. I know we all want our freedoms and civil rights, but how much
do we really care about each other's. I am not saying human nature is
all bad, nor that I get my kicks out of screwing with other people's
lives, but how likely is a liveable future? If people did live by the
rule of do what you want and don't screw with others, a lot of what we do
(hacking-- even if only for information purposes, etc) would be
considered screwing with others. Not that we wouldn't continue to do
these things, but, are we really willing to bind ourselves by our own
rules? I like all the idealism I'm hearing from people about technology,
unfortunately I find cynicism more interesting.
Not sure this answered this original query, but whatever.....
-Racheline
(yes, I know I ramble)
:)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 82 of 133
Subject: re:philosphies
From: mwark (McKenzie Wark)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 09:25:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <N0LcXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The world offered in Gibson's vision of The Sprawl is appealing, because
we assume we'd be among the winners. It sounds like a cool challenge. Of
course most of us would proably be loosers, and not 'gentelmen loosers
either. Total autonomy sounds very appealing when you foret you had it
easy, surrounded by the most massive support systems ever invented on
this earth to make life easy.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 83 of 133
Subject: re:philosphies
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 12:26:59 EST
In-Reply-To: <49eDXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Gibson's vision appealing ... yes, in a way ...

The part of me that feels I have a scampering grasp on NewTek,
understanding just enough about what goes on to be a minor leaguer.
The part of me that thinks "I'm young, fast, and can walk the Sprawl."
The part of me that can put a round in a coffee mug at 50' from a draw.
My "lone wolf" side.

But I'm soft. I want a wife and kids. The easy life. Corp sellout.
Sarariman. Or maybe a cop in a cushy Zone. A faceless person in the Matrix.

I can't have my life and live it too ...

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Post: 84 of 133
Subject: re:philosphies
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 93 01:32:13 EST
In-Reply-To: <oNNDXB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The real revolutionary lives inside and waits for the moment of peak
action to drop the monkey wrench into the establishment. After all
it takes some considerable wisdom to know when to do that for the
benefit of all.

A family, contrary to your fuzzy happy image is not as easy or nice as
you would like to believe, an if you know anything about the world you
realise the impossible task of getting them ready to deal with the world
in a meaningful fashion, but I know mine will be ready for it.

The Boy Scouts still reign supreme when it comes to mottos.

CritiC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 85 of 133
Subject: re:philosphies
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 23:12:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <ecDiXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, even if CritiC is too cynical to think of a family in a warm, fuzzy
way, I want one ... and will have one. 'Course, my future wife has to be
able to shoot and dress wounds, too!

Boy Scouts: Semper Paratus - "Always Prepared" .. who'd you think the
Eagle Scout around here was ?!?!?

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Post: 86 of 133
Subject: Boy scouts and stuff
From: ehsmith (Ethan H. Smith)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 00:48:47 EST
In-Reply-To: <qVqNXB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

How do I get to be Grand Poobah in one of those deals?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 87 of 133
Subject: Gibson
From: tomlin (James Tomlin)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 17:30:16 EST
In-Reply-To: <1BVNXB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Where is good ol` William Gibson these days?

I've seen Bruce Sterling post here but not Willy.
..Or have I missed something?

Is he too busy or what?

flame on,
nobody

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 88 of 133
Subject: Boy Sprouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 13:35:14 EST
In-Reply-To: <6o6oXB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

[Title is not a typo, just Illuminati (Game) reference].

How to become a SCout leader... hmmm ...

I imagine you' contact the local HQ, and mention interest in being an
Assitant ScoutMaster or Adult Leader type.

(sorry I can't be MoRe HeLpFuL ... )

Scout Law: A Scout is
Trustworthy
Loyal
Helpful
Friendly
Courteous
Kind
Obedient
Cheerful
Thrifty
Brave
Clean
and Revent

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Post: 89 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Sprouts
From: rebelion (Chris Jones)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 20:08:24 EST
In-Reply-To: <FHPqXB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

i'm not a boy scout, but i always have my portable hack tools
with me...(nmn, where are you?)

rl/SoG

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 90 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Sprouts
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 02:47:25 EST
In-Reply-To: <Po8qXB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I always knew there was a reason I didn't like the Scouts... ""Obedient"?
"Revent"? "Cheerful" and "Clean" even? I'm glad I stayed away.

- Simon

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Post: 91 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Sprouts
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 04:24:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <q6PRXB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

oh wow
it brings back
MEMORIES... 'look. it's me, with my mother.' : rachael

memories of fucking around in the church
where we met, the lame troop leader,
running through the halls shouting nasty
jokes, everybody quit at once, really.
hehe 'i design
haven't your eyes.'
played illuminati in a i just got : chew :
long a %HACKER%
time <sjg game> poster 4 my
well, that's all folks! wall
ps : chrmsync : where ru it's very nice
listed in the espionage credits???

: drow :

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[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 92 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Sprouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 04:29:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <9muRXB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

drow: Under unindicted coplaytesters ... and if you're hip enough to get
GURPSNet, I'm also listed in that current issue (#24) ...

Wait for Hacker II and Hacker III (got briefs on plans for each last
summer ... *wild* shit!!)

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 93 of 133
Subject: Boy Scouts
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 23:35:27 EST

I was a boy scout once. Now I eat rhubarb.

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation
ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 94 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: squirrel (quazi)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 12:20:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <s0k3XB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I flunked out of boy scouts
Quazi

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 95 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 08:34:17 EST
In-Reply-To: <L2DiyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

what a bunch of fags

.. and i mean that in a non-demeaning way to ligetitmate homo-sexuals who
may use and read this message

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 96 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 09:06:49 EST
In-Reply-To: <u8XJyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, w1z, it's really a mini-"old boy" network ...
kinda like DeMolay is for FreeMasons.

scary trivia: both being a Boy Scout and achieving Eagle are listed on
ROTC applications (well, '85 - '86) ... maybe it's that teramwork thing or
discipline ... if only they knew ...

Eagle Scout,

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 97 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 21:11:51 EST

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> Well, w1z, it's really a mini-"old boy" network ...
> kinda like DeMolay is for FreeMasons.

No please, not this. If all the boy scouts in the world blew up or went
away at the same time I can almost garantee that the number of future
nightclerks at 7-11's who won't be able to work there because it'll be
fully automatic by then, would go down by 90% Not even counting the
millitary, ohmygod.

I _like_ the Freemasons, they're cool.

Has the guy who wrote Snow Crash ever written anything else? Short stories
or articles, or did he just appear one day Snow Crash in hand?

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 98 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 22:25:40 EST
In-Reply-To: <gaXkyB10w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hey, deadboy, who will help the poor widow's son?

I'd show you how some people shake ... but you're not here ...

Spartacus' understudy,

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 99 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: hayden (Hugh Appet)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 10:42:16 EST

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

>
> scary trivia: both being a Boy Scout and achieving Eagle are listed on
> ROTC applications (well, '85 - '86) ... maybe it's that teramwork thing or
> discipline ... if only they knew ...
>

What would a Voxer or someone in their right mind be doing w/an ROTC
application in this day & Age?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 100 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 11:14:40 EST
In-Reply-To: <6syLyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hey, '85 - '86 ain' exactly "this day & age" ...

FYI, it was so I could get someone *else* to fund my education ...
(my hearing kept me out of it).

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 101 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 21:22:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <6a1LyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Heh. I can empathize a bit, Chrome. I chose to play Division III
football at a school that didn't have ROTC instead.

Ahh well. I was young.

(Now, I'm in debt.)

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 102 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: scoundrl (Renal Boy)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 21:41:07 EST
In-Reply-To: <XFsmyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

i was in boy scouts for 3 1/2 years, and i never got past first-class.

now i can't motivate myself to do anything,and i am on a course to become
a failure in life.

do you think there's any connection?

the Scoundrl

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 103 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 00:04:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <9aTmyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

definitely a connection
hell it was the same with me
except i think i made it farther than first class

hmm..
maybe not, but it wasnt fair i was patrol leader
adn spent the whole time helping my patrol
get their badges

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 104 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 16:51:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <0XZmyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hey, it was a good place to hang out (wherever the troop went) ... we had
a "cammie corps" ... older guys who went off and did whatever ... later we
got "LEADERSHIP CORPS" badges ... mostly a crock ...
still, was worth the experience. A few good connections.

'Sides, my old neighborhood had no cool, white-guy gangs ;)

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 105 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: scoundrl (Renal Boy)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 17:06:25 EST
In-Reply-To: <LkaoyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hey i didn't say that it was a bad experience. i even got to assistatn
patrol leader once, and i was in it for THREE years, like i said, so there
had to be something....going on campouts and then sneaking away to town,
taking dirty magazines and cigarettes and feeling like MEN. geez...those
were the dayz.

the Scoundrl

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 106 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 93 12:26:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <e0aoyB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

And don't forge the fun ya got to have with the younger kids ... late in
the night ... doing ... whatever ... to their tents.

Puttin' rocks in people's packs, &tc. &tc.

BTW, I was the first scout in my troop (to the best of my knowledge) to
get the COMPUTERS merit badge. Even showed off the punchcards from DLI at
Presidio, Monterey, California. [Defense Language Institute, where any
DoD-type can be sent to learn a foreign language]

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 107 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: allah (Alex Metcalf)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 16:58:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <TysPyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts...
My Scoutmaster's sitting there, talking up a storm about this and
that while we're on a camping trip. he's big, be's butch, he's a _man_.
Only later, after he passes around a few copis of the new Penthouse for
my buds to tease their meat puppets with, he confronts me with some
serious gay porn and asks me what I think. One thing leads to another and
my 12 year old self is scared and pissed so I kick him in the balls and
run away into the forest...Got kicked out fo the scouts for assaulting my
scout master.
Be prepared!

AL X

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 108 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: scoundrl (Renal Boy)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 17:52:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <6VuTyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

jeez....

my scout troop was never like taht. hmmm... that kind of perpetuates the
idea of gay men trying to take advantage of little boys. did this really
happen? if it did i think that its aweful, and did you ever tell anyone,
did he ever get in trouble?

the Scoundrl

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 109 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 19:41:17 EST
In-Reply-To: <0DXTyB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Dudes, not to crush your happy memories of playing with other boys, but
this is the cyberpunk forum and I don't give a shit about hearing about
the boy scouts! Petition the management to add a boys life bord or
something so you can all bond there.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 110 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: siva (The Destroyer)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 00:43:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <iF3TyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

No, hey, my scout troop was cool...
they smoked anything they could get their hands on, they cut logging
cables two inches thick, and watched the empty cars/hooks go thrashing down
about 2000 feet of mountain side, taking out anything in it's path.
They burned down old abandoned buildings.

They made huge explosives.

They once mistakenly attacked me with knives, because I was the patrol
leader. No other reason. Blood was shed, they remembered why I was the
leader.

They rode trains to strange cities.

All this was in japan.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 111 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 00:52:21 EST
In-Reply-To: <iF3TyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, can there be a 'CPunk' version of the Boy Scouts?

Young'ns trying to help out others, say on the 'Net, introducing them to
usage, netiquette, and whacking those who ... er ... well, disregard that
last part ...

Or would that be a cross with the Guardian Angels (who are by no means
perfect ... but good-hearted (largely) do-gooders).

And if so, who would sponsor such an organization? Still private as now,
or would certain corps sponsor a troop or patrol? Turn 'em into
mini-security guard (junior rent-a-cops)?

.. just throwing the thread back into the weave ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 112 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 13:07:03 EST
In-Reply-To: <yTguyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

And fer sure we'd want a CyberBrownies, or whatever little girls scouts
are called. My sister would love it! (And so would Sassy, for that matter.)

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 113 of 133
Subject: re: Brownies
From: reive (Racheline Maltese)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 19:16:25 EST
In-Reply-To: <gueVyB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I was a Brownie when i was in 2nd and 3rd grad; my mom was troop leader.
We even actually had a meeting about how to use computers (comodore 64's)
but I think we had some tecaher lead that, 'cause my mom still can't turn
on a computer to this day. I remember being bummed that I couldn't get a
badge for knowing computer junk, just cooking and artsy shit. Oh well.
I think I still have my old uniform in a closet somewhere.
-reive

*******************************
* reive *
* reive@mindvox.phantom.com *
* zs840c@gwuvm.gwu.edu *
*******************************

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 114 of 133
Subject: re: Brownies
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 93 20:11:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <3XVVyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Cyberbrownies??

*Sulam shivers in his ruby slippers, furiously clicking away*

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 115 of 133
Subject: re: Brownies
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 03:42:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <3HyVyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

ANd instead of selling cookies, codez? or shareware?

I guess it was cool, thinking that BS had a Computers merit badge and GS
didn't ... 'course, there coould be a time wwarp effect. I got mine around
1982 or so (maybe '83) ... and it was certainly around before that!

What aabotu the general idea of do-gooders in the future? Or is everyone
to be too egocentric or selfish for it to matter?

Just random thought during my graveyard shift ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
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[ in the material world ]
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 116 of 133
Subject: re: do-gooders
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 09:25:15 EST
In-Reply-To: <FDJwyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hmm, are we that bad? I would think that any new user could learn
quite a bit about computing just by being on a few boards (not
these PC warez boards I keep hearing about, I mean like real boards,
or "smart" MUDs). Provided someone was willing to winnow away a lot
of chaff, this sort of place is right up there with K-12 in my mind.

And if you can't handle a little winnowing, you shouldn't be on the Internet.

//Sulam

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 117 of 133
Subject: Exptopian list
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 16:45:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <R9ywyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'd like to get the Extropian list. Anyone got an address? Thanx!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 118 of 133
Subject: Re: Exptopian list
From: blade (Terry Hoffman)
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 93 17:40:37 EST

voidmstr (Dennis Wilen) writes:

> I'd like to get the Extropian list. Anyone got an address? Thanx!

1) Formal complaints and administrative requests MUST be sent to:

Extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu

To join or discontinue the digest version send a request to:

exi-daily-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu

To join or discontinue the real time version send a request to:

Extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu

1a) Please allow up to 3 to 5 business days for your requests to
be processed. Please note that most requests are handled with 12 to 32
hours. The handling of requests on the days just prior to and after
holidays maybe completely deferred or greatly delayed.

2a) Mail to the list should be sent to:

extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 119 of 133
Subject: Re: Future Culture
From: pjv (Max lansing)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 15:00:06 EST
In-Reply-To: <RD3kRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

YES, I am very interested in your news letter. Does it cost anything?
I am new when it comes to "Net" etiquette. But yes I am very interested
in receiving your information.

Here is my address: PJV@mindvox.phantom.com
send

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 120 of 133
Subject: Re: Future Culture
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 93 21:12:44 EST
In-Reply-To: <Vqim1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

sig says it all, subect 'send info'...

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation
ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 121 of 133
Subject: A Fun 'Hack' ..
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 93 09:31:56 EST

As a cold operator (it's friggin' 63 in the suite), I can run
CPU-intencive work on the Convex C240; the increased workload raisess the
exhaust temp. by 4-8 degrees ...

Now, if I could just pop popcorn by the CRT radiation ... :)

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 122 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 13:28:08 EST

allah (Alex Metcalf) writes:

> Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts...

I was kicked out for refusing to wear the uniform.

I said it was "paramilitary".

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 123 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 93 13:29:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <LTR71B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Heck, I *enjoyed* the uniform ... rank, rate/job, medals, pins and the
baddest, nastiest (oops! ... errr, those with the most leadership skills)
got berets ... ;^)

Pow-well, Pow-well, uber alles ...

<that's a joke, dummy!>

{Powell = Lord Baden Powell, started Boy Scouts in England}

A "retired" Eagle Scout,

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 124 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: allah (Alex Metcalf)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 93 09:41:02 EST
In-Reply-To: <LVR71B11w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Actually an eagle scout, hmmmm? Gonna let us in on those secret eagle
ceremonies where they kidnap little children from the "lesser" races and
sacrifice them to the great god of whiteness and light: Baden-Powell???

AL X

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 125 of 133
Subject: Re: Boy Scouts
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 93 14:27:24 EST
In-Reply-To: <4yB91B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Ah, the "Order of the Arrow" was better -- AmerIndian-type stuff -- weird
initiations (like the Knights of Columbus, but better; but not nearly so
hip as higher-level Mason stuff ... )

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 126 of 133
Subject: What the hell is Cyberpunk?
From: cable (John D'Emic)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 93 21:55:49 EDT
In-Reply-To: <DwJa2B6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

What the hell is this. What the fuck is a cyberpunk.The
definition of one has become extreemely clouded lately. Media coins all
cyberpunks to be computer hackers who break into systems with no reason
whatsoever. The RPG'sand movies coin cyberpunks as gun toting cyborgs
or (once again) hackers. The literal definition is one who is grafted
or interacts with machines (cyber) and the anarchist (punk). Aren't then
most people on the net cyberpunks because we interact with machines
(modems) and we are take part in an anarchistic society (No one owns the
internet, you can do whatever the hell you want it, no central
'government' ect.).

-Cable-
"Take Control of the Machine Now"
-the Utah Saints-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 127 of 133
Subject: Re: What the hell is Cyberpunk?
From: pjv (Max lansing)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 18:20:44 EDT
In-Reply-To: <qJ1N2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

RE: Sci-Fi Channel program - FTL Newsfeed

To all interested, FTL Newsfeed is an original program on the SFC. It
is
news from 150 years in the future. Everyday on the SFC, FTL News comes
on for 30 seconds and reports the news fro the future, except it is
real-time.

I would like to get feedback on the storyline, plots and characters etc.
from people online. I will post a weekly summary of FTL News, and people
can post feedback etc.

I will do this if people our interested. Let me know if any of you are
interested in providing a sounding board to this project.

Thanks Max

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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Post: 128 of 133
Subject: Re: What the hell is Cyberpunk?
From: gearhead (Sean Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 21:55:09 EDT
In-Reply-To: <0w482B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeah, man, post it.

Since the Bastids at BQCable don't see fit to provide us with the SciFi
channel I'm real curious about what youse guys is up to.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 447
Subject: Hacking
From: sparc@mindvox.phantom.com (John Gaelum)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 13:07:04 EDT

This seems like the place to do it, so here goes:

How would a hacker be defined in today's world?

The excuses used by Richard Stallman about wanting to learn, are moot by
now, because anyone with $900 can buy a machine 5 times as powerful as
the best computer at MIT was when Stallman wrote those words.

What does it all come down to, what >is< a hacker nowadays?

Sparc

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking
From: ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com (c@:mg)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 17:26:55 EDT

I only have one thing to say, and that is:

There are so many varied definitions for hacker, cracker, cyberpunk, etc.
The only way we can avoid discrepancies in the definitions is to include
your own definition in the context in which you use the word. IE:

"I was hacking COSMOS the other day, being careful not to destroy data as
any self-respecting hacker would". (From thsi sentence, you can see that
I give my own definition of a hacker in the context of the sentence. IE:
a hacker could be someone who penetrates systems but is non-mailicious.)

That is all that is necessary - include your definition every time you
use the word. It's the only way people are going to know what you're
talking about. Trying to change someons' perception of a hacker is like
trying to change their religion.

BTW - that quote above is just an example, not ncessarily my own
definition.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 3 of 447
Subject: Dude...
From: archer@mindvox.phantom.com (Richard Newson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 16:28:03 EDT

You've been reading too many 5 year old text files.

Who are you anyway?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 4 of 447
Subject: Hacking
From: blain@mindvox.phantom.com (Blain Strickel)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 92 00:09:00 EDT

I thought that was a good example, if there is something else going on
under all that, I'd like to know about it. If anyone has anything they'd
like to add, please post it or email me.

Thanks

Blain

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 5 of 447
Subject: Distortions
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:44:07 EDT

I found out the hard way that lies and distortions often are viewed as the
absolute truth , merely because their sources were the Government, and major
publications. It is a shame, but what people think of you is based on that
alone. I guess it's just another vivid example that people who own the
media get to define the "truth" .. I can only assume that it will always be
this way until more and more of our society gets their information from a
truly electronic media system in which we all have a chance to get the real
facts distributed by doing so ourselves without fear of censorship, or
reprisal.

Mark is facing a very difficult time. He is basically against the wall, and
we must all try to help him get through this. I don't care whether he is
guilty or not. The real fear is that he will get destroyed in the sentencing
process. Sometimes I wonder just who really runs the government. Oh well, I
am no longer able to speak freely. Perhaps someone who has civil rights can
carry on this discussion...

Len

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 6 of 447
Subject: Hey Len!
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 02:08:07 EDT

Didn't they give those back to you? You must have forgot to pick up your
civil rights on the way out the door in your rush to get back to freedom!

(Insert an emoticon)

Patrick

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 7 of 447
Subject: guilty?
From: michelle (Michelle Harris)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 00:29:16 EDT

> I don't care if he's guilty or not...

Isn't the the whole question of being on trail? That's what's supposed
to be the question.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 8 of 447
Subject: The "Hacker's Ethic". It is dead..
From: ahmed (Ahmed Kufuti)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 03:22:40 EDT

Someone earlier brought up a good point regarding the state of technology
and how affordable it is, and perhaps I would like to expand on it with
the views of my own.

People like Emmanuel Goldstien and Phiber Optik and other hackers have
always stated that it is "okay to break into other peoples computers if
you don't do any damage", "it's okay to explore, and learn, etc..etc..".

The "hacker ethic" of the 1970's and 1980's, as stated above made sense then
because really powerful computers (Unix and VAX and such) were far too
expensive for the average individual to afford, so it was only "right" for
hackers to break in to learn how to use such machines. I tend to agree
with the hacker ethic on this.

But does this make any sense in 1992? I do think not. Time changes many
things, you see. If you want to learn Unix, you can build a Unix system
for around $800. This would basically be a 386 with 2 or 4 megabytes RAM,
a 40-80 MB hard disk, and something like Linux, Coherent or 386BSD. And
such a system would be more powerful than the 3B2 and VAX 11/750 machines
that people hacked into in the 70's & 80's. Plus you would have super user
access and everything would be legal and no worries.

So does it really make any sense at all to keep the hacker ethic alive
when such powerful hardware has become so cheap? It sounds really silly
to say that it's okay to hack into some else's Unix machine today because you
want to learn how to use Unix. It is too silly.. It sounds almost
hypocritical and people will only think that the only reason for breaking
into another machine is so you can read their private data files, and not
so you can learn shell programming or whatever. I also think that another
reason why hacker break into machines, which is never stated publically,
is the "rush" or excitement that they feel from the danger of breaking the
law. People I have spoken to say this rush can be quite addictive, almost
like the heroin.

Mr. Goldstien, I think it is time for you to get new slogans because
repeating the "hacker ethic" in this time of cheap access to powerful
technology makes you look quite foolish from my point of view, and from
the point of view of others. Stop saying we are only "exploring" or
"learning" by hacking when this is not the case in the 1990's. You can
pick up books on Unix and a copy of Coherent for $99 and accomplish
exactly the same thing without breaking any laws.

respectfully,

ahmed

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 9 of 447
Subject: ahmed
From: klarry (Larry Kessler)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 04:28:41 EDT

that was one of the worst written and best thought out
messages posted in a while. The people pushing that
old "its ok to explore" speech were from the 70's, you
cansee for yourself how fast Stallman changed his mind
once hackers started dleating his work from FSF.

Larry K.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 10 of 447
Subject: ethics
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 04:18:48 EDT

You going to give me the $800 to buy a unix box? Didn't think so.
Moot point, because that isn't the issue.

To explore and learn new things is. If you don't like that, fine.
You can complain. But complaining isn't going to accomplish much of
anything, except maybe wasting a lot of time.

Humankind hasn't prospered by sitting on its behind, but by exploring new
things and ideas. To stretch the limits of technology to improve our lives,
and the world. The question is, do you want to be known as one of the
COMPLAINERS, or one of the DO-ERS?

In order to improve the technology of the world around you, you must first
understand it. We all must. It's our moral obligation as human beings.
The rewards of improving our lives and the lives of our fellow man/woman
are much too great to yield to persecution and blatant ignorance.

THAT is the Hacker Ethic. Not some self-righteous, over-simplistic clap-trap.
Here is truth. And if you can't see the truth, then there is no hope for you.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 11 of 447
Subject: And we'll all sail off into the purple horizon...
From: pclip (Paper Clip)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 21:49:32 EDT

Urrmmph....errrAgh...hah, hah....ooooooh! I'm becoming bloated
with helium ideals.....uunngh...ah.....ooomf.....the lack of substance is
causing me dire indigestion....wwauufg....eeeeffffth....PLEASE, JUST DON'T
BREAK OUT IN THE NATIONAL ANTHEM......AAAAGH!

(OOF...The Paper Clip)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 12 of 447
Subject: Re: guilty?
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 14:03:44 EDT

michelle (Michelle Harris) writes:

>
> > I don't care if he's guilty or not...
>
> Isn't the the whole question of being on trail? That's what's supposed
> to be the question.

there are other things in life besides the law and the news and
i dont even know what to say, its really amazing to read so many
posts on here where people are shredding apart phiber and they
dont know him and can just read some of his posts here, but most dont
they just watch tv and read newpapers and come on here and insult him

there have been some posts that looked like the person was at least
responding to the phiber optik that one can see here on MindVox

Mark Abene IS, a Person, you know.. that human being kind of thing
personally i cant say that i really care a lot about him
i mean why should i? i've talked to him or anything much less
get to know him/become friends
but that doesnt mean that i would want to go insult him,
especially since alot of these posts are done with phiber/mark
being a third person type mention like he is not even
reading the posts
iean if you are going to insult someone, at least direct it to them

as a human being i would hope that Mark gets a fair trial,
~~
now i also hope that he doesnt get so screwed up in the rpocess
with a bunch of people who dont know him insulting him and
and the media jumping down his ass and everything else
that is happening

just think about it, if you were on trial, for something you did or
did not do, do you need all this extra shit pouring into your life??

most of this stuff has had NOTHING to do with whether or not he is guilty
it has to do with this person that people do or do not like
why i should have opinions about someone i dont know
boggles my mind, but posting them is even more amazing

i know this has absolutely NOTHING to do with whatever
forum this is in, but it seems to be the same thing in every forum
all about one person, some people have been around each other
for a long time and know a little bit more about the situation
others are just jumping in

but i just think that people need to realize that going to court
isnt really a fun thing, having the media an d everyone
else in public trying to crack down on you is much
of a happy happy joy joy situation either
dont just think about who you are talking to
think about what you are saying and how they will recieve the message

or whatever i dont know...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 13 of 447
Subject: Wow!
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 15:49:04 EDT

That last post was the biggest run-on sentence I have ever seen! Whew!

Incase you have not figured it out yet, I think it is quite obvious Mark
will not get a fair trial. When you are up for guilt by association, few
things are fair. But with the media attention this is getting, some good
will come. The public will not stand for a gross manifestation of
injustice no matter what the instance.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 14 of 447
Subject: Run ons
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:12:35 EDT

yeah it was kinda run on ish
to get the full effect you have to read it
like i wasnt taking breaths all to often either
:)
kinda that exasperated sound

and i know he wont get a fair trial, i dont think
anyone in hte US really does
the guilty might get punished with desrving punishments
and the innocent may all go free (hahahahaha)
but there still are MANY unfair things about the system
especially who doesnt go to jail or to trial
and things like getting more severe punishment for having
a couple sugar cubes of LSD than selling heroin
stuff liek that
but that is another forum

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 15 of 447
Subject: wtap!
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:37:17 EDT

A "gross manifestation of injustice"... had your thesaurus out for that
one, eh? Between your convoluted comment, Mr. Tap, I think more
importantly is that in our society it doesn't matter to Uncle Sam WHAT
"the public will stand for". If you're railroaded in a crooked trial and
sent up the creek, the public may complain, but that won't do very much to
get you out of jail. I have no desire to be a martyr behind bars, I just
want to go on with my life.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 16 of 447
Subject: Trial
From: michelle (Michelle Harris)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 03:16:59 EDT

Mark? That's you Phiber right? If you have a lawyer which I assume you
do and are going to court and you're innocent, what makes you think that
you won't be found innocent and freed? Courts try to put guilty people
in jail, not lock up people who haven't done anything! I don't know
anyone who is in much trouble, besides the usual stuff people get in
trouble for like drugs and wrecking a car or something, but doesn't the
legal system work for you too?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 17 of 447
Subject: woof!
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 03:26:18 EDT

Whew! I'm not gonna touch that one. Anyone?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 18 of 447
Subject: Re: woof!
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 12:47:43 EDT

phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:

> Whew! I'm not gonna touch that one. Anyone?

umm...
(im really hesitating here)

i really like to be a nice guy, dont like being mean or anything
like that but it does need to be pointed out
that the legal system in the United States and the rest of the world
does not work, why? because the people in power control the people
in the legal system (or the other way around) and it becomes
more of a matter of what one person wants done or a group
of people think that the laws should mean rather than
guilty people going to jail and innocent people going free

the problem is that it is not just the trial and what goes on in the court
room that counts, its whats in the news paper
can you get a jury that has no previous bias?
no, so the attourneys argue and stuff adn try to get the
jury that is biased in their favour

that and when it is a criminal trial, the DA sets precendence on
trials that will be more likely to get him a higher political position
and when politics enter the court room, which they do all the time
ESPECIALLY over ground breaking trials like this one
then there is no justice, just politcal machines in action

have you ever stopped to think that even if you are innocent
its not really great to be arrested thrown in jail
have to pay bail and go to court and hope and pray that your
lawyer isnt really an imbecile and waste all this time
just to prove you are innocent?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 19 of 447
Subject: another thing...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 18:20:27 EDT

On a more personal level, have any of you ever had a gun pointed at your
head? How about two guns, in the bed you sleep in, in your own home, by
two complete strangers, accompanied by 10 others? No, you say?
Well, believe me, it does wonders for one's faith in the justice system.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 20 of 447
Subject: Gunz...
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 00:15:46 EDT

I have always found that to be the most inappropriate and insane action by
any law agency. I was once at a meeting of the New York Personal Computer
Users Group. I believe if memory serves me, Phiber was on the panel, along
with Donald Delaney, Katie Hafner, Mike Godwin, and Emmanual Goldstien.
After all sorts of hissing and booing by some of the audience (which, mind
you was completely uncalled for on account that it began the second Phiber
began to answer a question. I think he had said "the reason tha..." when
he was interrupted) one hacker in the crowd took a bold step and stood up
and asked Mr. Delaney (who is member of the New York State SS or something
similar):
"How do you justify the use of a shotgun in apprehending a 14 year old 95
pound kid?"
Delaney's response was:
"I know of the case of which you speak <name ommitted, he knew the hacker
who was asking the question>. In the case of <again, name of the
apprehended hacker ommitted>, the shotguns were not drawn. Only after the
convolutions of the youngster's mother were they drawn in hopes they would
calm her down. I do not need to justify what didnt happen."
Or something similar. The shotguns were NOT drawn according to Delaney,
but WERE drawn according to the busted hacker. In fact, they were drawn on
him as he was emerging from the shower, buck naked, dripping wet. I would
tend to believe the hacker. Stories of shotuns drawn and Clint Eastwood
look alike SS man are commonplace. Something is very wrong. That alone
should eliminate all doubt that this doesn't happen.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 21 of 447
Subject: Re: Gunz...
From: johnb (John Barclay)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 03:41:32 EDT

wtap (Wire Tap!) writes:
> Or something similar. The shotguns were NOT drawn according to Delaney,
> but WERE drawn according to the busted hacker. In fact, they were drawn on
> him as he was emerging from the shower, buck naked, dripping wet. I would
> tend to believe the hacker. Stories of shotuns drawn and Clint Eastwood
> look alike SS man are commonplace. Something is very wrong. That alone
> should eliminate all doubt that this doesn't happen.

I've seen quite a few Secret Service agents and none of them looked
quite like Clint Eastwood. A closer description would be Ralph
Kramden's body with Yul Brenner's head. Working for the SS isn't a glam
job, and it shouldn't be a shock that they go on raids with their guns
drawn. If you were assigned to keep track of crazies threatening the
president and had to bust counterfeiters and smugglers you might not be so
skeptical of taking precautions. We know from day to life in the Big
Apple that Fourteen year old kids can be just as dangerous as Forty year
old men. Zod committed some very serious felonies while infiltrating very
important _military_ sites and that alone justifies _preparing_ to use force.

I don't know which NYACC meeting you were at but I've been to several.
The only one I was at which sounds like the one you describe featured a
panel with Mike Godwin of the EFF, Donald Delaney of the New York State
Police and Bruce Fancher (dead) of hacker / MindVox fame. The draw of
those three names filled the auditorium with people. Godwin and Delaney
did their usual speil which is deadingly familiar by now. The only
_really_ interesting speaker was Fancher, who did a better job
articulating his viewpoint than the usual suspects who show up at these
sort of things. If he keeps making speeches like that, then he is bound
to draw a _huge_ ammount of attention to himself and MindVox. I just hope
that finally having someone charismatic enough to get people to listen
will wake up the public and opinion makers to whats going on. It's too
late in the game for us to be trotting the same tired old brand new crop
of fifteen year old felons every time a reporter come around for a
"Hacker" stroy. Fancher and Kroupa are the new Voices we need -- and
they may be the only ones who synthesize the seductivness of the Underground
with the solid real-world accomplishments needed to be taken seriously.
Whether or not this comes to pass I can't say, but if nothing else
Fancher's speech was a welcome change from the usual whining Hacker
monotone.

Keep the Faith.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 22 of 447
Subject: Actually...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 05:37:24 EDT

...just knowing how strange "zod's" parents were, I wouldn't be too sure
who to believe. First of all, it's well known that his mom sort of
thought that they were the "Manson gang", "coming to kill her and her
family". A normal assumption, no? Secondly, judging by the frequency at
which "zod" told the truth half the time, I wouldn't be so quick to believe.
And lastly, Delaney arrested me in Jan 1991. No guns (certainly not
shotguns), and I'm a bit bigger than "zod". Cuffs though, there were cuffs.
And don't forget, the idea of shotguns to sustain a 14 year old naked kid
sounded just scrumptious to the media.

Also, the majority of individuals in my home in December were from the
FBI, not the SS (only a couple SS), and if you've ever been at the
Marshall's office, it appears that they ARE in it for the glamor and
glitz, at least some of them from their suits and slicked hair-cuts (and
attitudes). And attitude was no stranger, one December morning...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 23 of 447
Subject: COmputer Busts
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 14:53:08 EDT

just curious about this...

a friend of mine was busted by a law enforcement agency
(i dont know which one) but was never charged or anything
they just kinda took his computer full of GIF files and probably
just go into the back room and stare at naked women for awhile
but anyhow...

i was curious about arrests that you have been in or heard of
(preferably first/second hand info, not fourth, but rumours can be funn)

what time did they decide to stop by, how many people
what type of guns...etc etc

did they keep the equipment what charges

another question, when they confiscate it, does it go up for auction
or what?
cuz usually they are taking nice systems and i wouldnt mind pickone
up :)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 24 of 447
Subject: You ain't seen nothin' yet..
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 17:35:16 EDT

Just saw a preview ad on NBC, during the Olympics. It seems that around
August 15th, a new show will hit prime time. The name of the show?

"Secret Service" - Defenders of Justice

Nifty eh? From the preview clip, it appears to be filmed in the style of
Fox's "Cops", although maybe it's re-enactments as well.

I wonder if they will show any "hacker" busts on that show. No one I know
(with the exception of Hollywood Hacker, but I don't know him) who has
been raided has seen any film crews coming in with the SS, so I assume
that if this new show has anything about hacker busts, it will likely be
either re-enactments or "fresh new busts especially for TV". Gee, I can't
wait..

I'd like to see the re-enactment of Zod's raid on TV, with the kid from Dougie
Howser plaing Zod, and Rosanne Barr as his mom, and Tom Arnold as his dad.
Mark, by the way, you really should trademark the name "Phiber Optik" so
that if this "Secret Service" television show does a piece on you, you can
at least sue for royalties.

Murdering Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 25 of 447
Subject: Oh, this and that...
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 23:43:52 EDT

Mark, definately TM your handle. It could be worth millions. As for Zod, I
don't know him too well, and surely didn't know he was a big teller of
untruths. But judging the SS (or FBI or whatever) against Zod, who would
you likely believe? The person you know better which in my case was Zod.
But even if Zod was somewhat tailoring the truth about the shower
incident, Delaney did admit there were guns involved. And they DID know
what Zod looked like, because it was later revealed that he was taped at
the all infamous 2600 meetings. And from that I understood, the system
which Zod penetrated was an IBM PC/AT running Zenix with Wordperfect in
.login to start immediately on login! Maybe the facts are incorrect, but
they can't be that far off. It seems to have been FAR from a top secret
missile trajectory calculation supercomputer.

Cops is a damn good show. Get to see all the Police brutality right in
your own home!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 26 of 447
Subject: WELL...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 02:18:32 EDT

It certainly wasn't an "IBM PC/AT" running "Zenix" (Xenix?), but on the
other hand, it certainly wasn't a supercomputer used for figuring missile
trajectories either. But it was a computer, and it belonged to the Air
Force, and was related to that funny, zany, five-sided building.
I'm sure your "facts" are nothing more than well-circulated gossip.

But the bottom line is that guns are unnecessarily used way too often, as
tools of fear and violence in such cases. Whether people believe it or not.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 27 of 447
Subject: Felonies?
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 04:38:06 EDT

Someone posted a while back that Zod committed some serious felonies while
hacking around various systems. I find that very hard to believe unless
you buy into the notion that hacking itself is a felony to be dealt with
in the same manner as theft or even violent crime. We are currently
engaged in a very real war of terminology; the authorities wish to make
hacking synonymous with crime. Judging from what a lot of you are posting,
they've made a lot of progress. I stand by what I've said in the past:
hacking is healthy ansd beneficial. It also happens to be a part of human
nature and I don't take kindly to any attempt to manipulate my values,
particularly when the threat of force is involved. When you hold up
something like credit card fraud and make it analogous to hacking, you're
falling right into their trap. Raids and indictments will make all the
headlines, but the most important and vulnerable part of this whole thing
will always be our values. I think we'd better start doing a better job of
defending them. Nobody else will.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 28 of 447
Subject: 2600 News
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 21:35:38 EDT

The summer issue of 2600 has been released. Subscribers should
have it no later than the early part of next week. Included
within is the latest on Bellcore's lawsuit threat against us,
as well as a complete guide to the different kinds of
telephone signalling systems used throughout the world
(written by a real heavyweight in the phone phreak world),
a review of the Dutch demon dialer, a tutorial on "portable
hacking", tips on defeating call return (*69), a guide to
voice mail hacking, plus letters, news updates, revelations
of an interesting nature (more Bellcore stuff) plus a whole
lot more.

On Friday, August 7th, we'll be having meetings in six American
cities. We expect all of these meetings to continue on a
monthly basis. Please spread the word. NEW YORK: Citicorp
Center (between Lexington and 3rd) downstairs in the lobby
by the payphones. Payphone numbers: 212-223-9011, 212-223-8927,
212-308-8044, 212-308-8162. WASHINGTON DC: Pentagon City mall.
CHICAGO: Century Mall, 2828 Clark St, lower level, by the
payphones. Payphone numbers: 312-929-2695, 2875, 2685, 2994,
3287. ST. LOUIS: At the Galleria, Highway 40 and Brentwood,
lower level, food court area, by the theaters. LOS ANGELES: At
the Union Station, corner of Macy St. and Alameda. Inside main
entrance by bank of phones. Payphone numbers: 213-972-9358, 9388,
9506, 9519, 9520, 213-625-9923, 9924, 213-614-9849, 9872,
9918, 9926. SAN FRANCISCO: 4 Embarcadero Plaza (inside).
Payphone numbers: 415-398-9803,4,5,6.

There is no agenda at a 2600 meeting, no formalities of any
kind, no dress code (except maybe in St. Louis), and no
constraints other than common sense. People generally get
together, trade information, meet people, look for feds, and
do whatever else comes to mind (all legally, of course).
Each meeting runs approximately from 5 pm to 8 pm local time
on the first Friday of the month. Anyone wanting to organize
a meeting in another city should contact 2600 at our office:
(516) 751-2600.

Our voice mail system is now a voice bulletin board system
every night beginning at 11 pm Eastern time. You can reach
it at 0700-751-2600 through AT&T. If you're using another
long distance carrier, preface that number with 10288.
It costs 15 cents a minut and all of the money goes to AT&T.
Whoopee.

Permission is hereby granted to repost this message with
the intention of spreading news of the above.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 29 of 447
Subject: Re: Phiber and Zod
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 00:58:54 EDT

Zenix, Xenix, Yoonicks, Vhee-Em-Ese, Wahful, whats the difference? But it
most certainly was gossip, but the point was to prove that guns are indeed
as you said used as an intimidation tactic. I don't see why they even put
cuffs on you in the first place. Probably another intimidation tactic. All
of this crap, mind you, I am sure is carefully thought out to make it look
like a) The Feds know what they are doing b) make you sure you know that
you did some serious shit, no matter how miniscule it was. I wonder if
they stake out the house of a software pirate, bust in with an M-16 and
bullet proof vests, and wrestle him to the floor whilest he is in his
pajamas, all the while his computer is busy PKUnzipping the newest release
from Epyx.
Makes you wonder, eh?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 30 of 447
Subject: wtap
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 14:29:12 EDT

For those who think Phiber exaggerates his description of a "hacker"
bust as a dangerous para-military exercise, I have a tape of the
"Hollywood hacker" invasion. The "HH" was a middle-aged guy who
was alleged to use a friend's password to snoop through the
computers of a competing tv-tabloid (Entertainment tonight) to be sure
they weren't scooping him. The tape shows LE types busting in one
morning screaming and with guns drawn on one very surprised middle-aged
dude.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 31 of 447
Subject: "Hollywood Hacker"
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 20:39:05 EDT

I met the "Hollywood Hacker" in California last year, that same
middle-aged guy, at CFP in San Francisco. The only thing that was evident
to everyone was that his "raid" was a media engineered sham, in light of a
feud between two tabloid TV shows, one of which he was in the employ.
It's a bad example.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 32 of 447
Subject: Re: "Hollywood Hacker"
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 01:49:55 EDT

Phiber notes that the "hollywood hacker" is a bad example of hacking. To
elaborate just a bit, the "HH" wasn't actually a hacker, but the media
snarfed it up with some major drama in the LA papers to portray the
dread hacker menace, and the drama created a false reality that fed
the prosecutor's frenzy. The truth is that Stu barely knows a hard drive
from a 4-wheel drive, and Unix are guys lacking hard drives. But the media
images shape the way LE types focus their investigations and write up
indictments. Sadly, bad examples have influenced legislation and
investigation. People like John Markoff of the NYT and
John/Barbara McMullen of Newsbytes should be credited with their
aggressively responsible and fair-minded attempts to counter distortion.

^G Get Help ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify
^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell
SNAPSHOT 3 VT100 3 FDX 3 2400 N81 3 LOG CLOSED 3 PRINT OFF 3 ON-LINE

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 33 of 447
Subject: Follow up from trajectory
From: tonyd (Anthony Desjardin)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 16:08:24 EDT

Patrick: I respect your opinions and am not saying shit against you. I
think what you and Bruce are doing is something that needed to be done and
you guys are doing a bang up job. I will lay off Phiber if you want me to,
but that's the only reason I'm doing it. You can make me change my opinion
of him for about as long as it takes him to open his mouth again and
reinforce to me why I think about him the way that I do in the first place.
You can't save Phiber's rep short of gluing his mouth shut and speaking every
word he says for the rest of his life.

You're not going to make people like him, you might make them tolerate and
put up with him, but he's the one who is going to have to do the rest.

Phiber: 1000's of people doing what? Ranting on TV about how they can
crack any computer system in the world? What is it that you're doing that
is so invaluable to society? Don't attack me, tell me. I don't see it,
please explain it to me.

All I ever hear from you is the same tired shit Stallman was saying 15
years ago. It's not valid anymore. Somewhere up there you wrote, who's
gonna give me $800 for a computer? I don't know, why not get a job, the
world doesn't owe you a computer. Since you seem to have a job along with
more hardware than most people would know what to do with, what's your
problem, or was it hypothetical?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 34 of 447
Subject: ?
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 20:37:45 EDT

Why not hypothetically get a clue already?
I'm tired of the same old ignorance.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 35 of 447
Subject: Funny...
From: czarina (Rita Rouvalis)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 16:59:55 EDT

I find it strange for people to be comparing phiber and rms. I think of
each as the templates for two different breeds of "hackers."

Which isn't saying anything negative about either of 'em. But I hope
you're more fun at parties than rms is, phiber.

Cz.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 36 of 447
Subject: ...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 20:45:32 EDT

You betcha! And, I wear SHOES.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 37 of 447
Subject: shoes?
From: zachs (John Zachs)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 18:04:30 EDT

Nobody can compare you with RMS anymore thats for sure!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 38 of 447
Subject: Fruit & Fiber
From: tonyd (Anthony Desjardin)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 19:31:14 EDT

Yo Phiber...

What the fuck is your message? You keep on talking about all this shit you
do for people and how much society loves you an all, what do you have to
say other then "I am ego, look at me on TV" I know a lot of dudes in
college who are real quick, smart and not stupid enough to be all over TV.

Mcmullen's ok, I've seen his stuff at some meets, right now he has a
interesting monkey on a stick to rant about stuff, then later he'll have
more stories to write when jail opens its doors, or Phiber gets lucky and
walks.

Phiber, lemme put it into your language, you're an asshole yourself, so
stick it.

with love,

Tony

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 39 of 447
Subject: i hate being hypocritical
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 19:55:15 EDT

but once in awhile you have to
i dont know how to tell people to stick to the
subject of the forum without leaving the subject of the forum
BUT...

what does Mark Abene's or Phiber's personality/ies have
ANYTHING to do with the ethics of hacking and its
relationship to cyberspace?????????????????????

i dont care whether or not you know mark personally
so that you can actually have the ability to call him an asshole
but if you know what e-mail is, then feel free to use it
if you dont.. then you dont even deserve to be talking about hacking

im just really sick of seeing in every forum one or two people lambasting
ONE person and then some other defending him, when it has
nOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THE GODDAM SUBJECTS!!!

maybe there should be a 'Is mark an asshole?' forum but
i dont think it matters any one single damn bit to
society as a whole nor will it be a demonstration of
the useful exchange of information
this system is supposed to be built around

not that i want any of these forums censored or moderated
or anything like that i just want people with brains to amke
posts and people without them to stay at home and watch tv

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 40 of 447
Subject: Re: i hate being hypocritical
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 20:59:59 EDT

hotblack (Dana Watanabe) writes:

> i dont care whether or not you know mark personally
> so that you can actually have the ability to call him an asshole
> but if you know what e-mail is, then feel free to use it
> if you dont.. then you dont even deserve to be talking about hacking
>
> im just really sick of seeing in every forum one or two people lambasting
> ONE person and then some other defending him, when it has
> nOTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THE GODDAM SUBJECTS!!!

Enormous dittos!.....Censorship sucks, but this crap all belongs in a RAVE
or FLAME forum. In here I'd like to read about (at least most of the time)
hackers issues and not CANNIBALISM!

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 41 of 447
Subject: Re: ...
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 22:04:15 EDT

phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:

> You betcha! And, I wear SHOES.
>

...and you're a hell of a lot easier to go to restaurants with...

--Strat

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 42 of 447
Subject: Re: yo yo YO!
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 93 00:35:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <uByT1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Judge Spark's decision in the SJG suit demolished Foley and the
Govt's seizure warrants. The ruling indicated that the USSS erred
grossly, and Foley was singled out for especially strong
condemnation.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 43 of 447
Subject: bottom line...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 05:14:39 EDT

This is an argument that will probably go on forever and no one will ever
agree on, but I maintain that had it not been for certain ethical and
wholly moral activities which were misconstrued and termed "illegal" in
the past, I would not possess much of the knowledge I do. People who know
me, know that I take great pride in educating people on the subject of
"how things work", and I go great lengths in my private studies to make
sure the information is technically accurate when I present it. Most often,
technical information which may be publically available is simply out of
the reach of most people, or the information simply isn't in a form they
can understand. I enjoy explaining things, when I feel that the listener
is genuinely curious and fascinated by the subject, and does not intend on
milking information to use for illicit or destructive purposes. I believe
that technological knowledge should be available to anyone who wants to
learn about it to use it and build upon it in a positive way, to educate
others, and to ultimately improve the world around us by moving onwards
and upwards. In an increasingly computerized society, it becomes more and
more important to the point of becoming almost mandatory that people
should understand the technological world around them. And certainly, if
they really STRIVE to know, as so many people do, there should be no
barriers. I got back from the "Off the Hook" radio show with Emmanuel
Goldstein a few hours ago, and it's clearly evident from the callers that
there is a growing concensus who have a genuine curiosity to know and
understand. Punishing people's insatiable thirst for knowledge is rather
backward, if not blatantly ridiculous. But as long as there exists a will
to stamp out an entire subculture, a will fueled by ignorance, hate, and
obvious abuses of power by certain law enforcement types and corporate
entities, there will always be problems.
The bottom line is that more and more, people everywhere want to know how
things work. What makes things tick. To UNDERSTAND. And all too often,
those who want to show the way get caught up in scandalous persecution.
It's the way things are, and we need to do something about it.
And people are trying.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 44 of 447
Subject: HakKing is BAD
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Date: Thu, 06 Aug 92 15:16:34 EDT

"Is it ethically ok to access computers that don't belong to you?"

That's a very un-answerable question since it will vary greatly from one
individual to the next. You'd have to define "ethical" first and then make
sure that everyone involved adhered to the same interpretation of the word,
and then give everyone a BIG COLORFUL BADGE that says "AUTHORIZED" and follow
it all up with a firm handshake looking deeply into their eyes and saying "I
love you" and . . . umm, where was I, oh yeah....

It is my personal belief that NO ONE has the RIGHT to access any computer,
network, device, or place; virtual or physical, that does not belong to them,
or where they have not been CLEARLY invited by the owner's or representatives
of same.

If EVIL SUPER-BAD MEGACORP has 24 Connection Machines accessible via local
dialup, and the root password is "abcdef" you still do not have the "right"
to access their machines, much less take any sort of action against them.

But ya know, there's right and wrong, good and evil, anthracite and puce, and

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[Topic]:

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 47 of 447
Subject: Pan...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 01:28:23 EDT

Sandy Duncan? Not at all.
Forget the whole thing, Cap'n.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 48 of 447
Subject: Uh . . . no
From: dead (Bruce Fancher)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 02:41:04 EDT

To paraphrase a Douglas Adams: Mark looks almost, but not entirely,
unlike Sandy Duncan. I think you're the one trapped in adolescence johnb,
Mark is a stamped, certified adult.

Llamas!!!!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 49 of 447
Subject: Hacking
From: zachs (John Zachs)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 13:03:14 EDT

Hehehehehe, Digital and Phiber posted almost the same thing to answer that
question and neither one of them said yes or no. It sounded a lot like
maybe but it all depends!

Personally I agree that it would all depend on a lot of things, but
Patrick pointed out that you never have the "right" to access systems that
you don't own and Phiber pointed out that if he hadn't done things that
were "ethical, moral but illegal" that he wouldn't know what he knows
today.

Why is that? Why couldn't you learn what you guys want to without
accessing things that aren't yours? I'm surprised almost that both of you
said the same thing, but what exactly does it mean when you can't get
knowledge legally from school?

The Zach

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 50 of 447
Subject: Hacking, Ethics 'n' Me
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 19:05:50 EDT

Anyonee desiring privacy shouldn't open their files (via LAN or PacBel)
for access.
Anyone who wants to share with some people should expect curiosity from
others (non-destructive hackers).
Any company *dumb* enough to put 'SECRET PLANS' online should expect
someone will have a look-see; therefore, sensitive material should be
local to one CPU at a time (i.e.: the peron(s) working on the project).
And yes, I'm all for telecommuting, but just as a Hughes Engineer would
not go to lunch at McDonald's to work on 'prints, nor should teleworkers
work on sensitive projects where there is open access.
The govenment invades our privacy all the time (esp. the IRS - my income
is my own business).
I guess maybe I'm a ranting limited constitutional anarchist cross free
market libertarian.
"Information wants to be free."

Besides, big business can benefit from hackers, working on security
against other hackers [anyone else remember Bill Landreth in San Diego?]
Chrome Sync

PS: How old are you, phiber?

[to make it a fair 'trade of info', I was born in the
60's]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 51 of 447
Subject: Hacking is Illegal and Immoral
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 19:23:47 EDT

All people who trespass on other people's systems
(explore the system w/o expressed permission, either written,
spoken, or typed) should be thrown in jail and fined.

simple
thats it
go home

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 52 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking is Illegal and Immoral
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 19:25:16 EDT

hotblack (Dana Watanabe) writes:

> All people who trespass on other people's systems
> (explore the system w/o expressed permission, either written,
> spoken, or typed) should be thrown in jail and fined.

now...
just some questions
what is someone elses system
and how can i really be on it?
i mean.. seriously.. am i physically doing anything to their
property? yes i guess i am causing motors to run and hard disk things
to read nad etc
but how illegal can that be?

information wise, is a computer or bbs really liek someones house?
it certainly isnt public property, but how private is it when
someone leaves a modem attached on answer mode?
you cant get arrested for breaking and entering someones home
if the door is unlocked and open
but i can see how a password file would be like a door lock
but should the connection really be that strong?

i dont know... im jsut rambling
but i would like to know what hackers or at least the hackers who
read this post, would like the laws to be
not what are they, but should they be?
right now we have a bunch of laws made up by people who
couldnt tell the difference between a sparc staion and a gas station
so should the laws be different?
or are the laws fine is it just the way the law enforcemnt people
or the da's office crack down on hackers that is bad?//

excuse this post its 4:40 on a friday afternoon and i am ready to go home
but i know someone is going to call in in a few minutes and tell me that
their router blew up or something like that

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 53 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking, Ethics 'n' Me
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 21:34:06 EDT

chrmsync (Craig Stockwell) writes:

> Anyonee desiring privacy shouldn't open their files (via LAN or PacBel)
> for access.

Without adequate security, this is truue.

> Anyone who wants to share with some people should expect curiosity from
> others (non-destructive hackers).

Yeah that's true, but it doesn't mean that I shouldn't ensure that my system
has enough security to be sure that your curiosity will not be satisfied
regardless of your savy or your hacking skills. If you get in then that
means someone has failed to do their job properly. If you get caught
attempting to break in and there is reasonable proof then you should be
prosecuted.

># Any company *dumb* enough to u!put 'SECRET PLANS' online should expect
> someone will have a look-see; therefore, sensitive material should be
> local to one CPU at a time (i.e.: the peron(s) working on the project).
> And yes, I'm all for telecommuting, but just as a Hughes Engineer would
> not go to lunch at McDonald's to work on 'prints, nor should teleworkers
> work on sensitive projects where there is open access.

This much is all true.....But if you go beyond ANY OBVIOUS SECURITY
MEASURE, THEN YOU ARE WHERE YOU HAVE NO BUSINESS BEING!

> The govenment invades our privac]y all the time (esp. the IRS - my income
> is my own business).
> I guess maybe I'm a ranting limited constitutional anarchist cross free
> market libertarian.
> "Information wants to be free."

You're right this is Libertarian bullshit...Our machines have no DOD type
security problems, but what about personnel files? What gives you the
right to do what you've just condemned the govt. for doing?
Hypocrisy, my friend, smells like dogshit and right now I've got a nose-full.

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 54 of 447
Subject: La Differance
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 23:44:32 EDT

The government looks at my income . . .. something I wouldn't put online.

A BBS is quite different from a wallet, my foul-smelling friend.

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 55 of 447
Subject: Re: La Differance
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 23:49:02 EDT

chrmsync (Craig Stockwell) writes:

> The government looks at my income . . .. something I wouldn't put online.

It's nice that you have a choice...

> A BBS is quite different from a wallet, my foul-smelling friend.

And also very different from a corporate or govt. system. A BBS is
private, the others are not. If you choose to allow your system to be
hacked, that's your business. If you try to hack my system, that's the
govt's business.... :-)

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 56 of 447
Subject: ...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 92 06:09:21 EDT

Know what I think?
I think we need more libertarians on the system.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 57 of 447
Subject: Re: ...
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 92 09:27:45 EDT

phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:

> Know what I think?
> I think we need more libertarians on the system.

Probaably more of both wouldn't hurt...I think some definitions would help.
Like what exactly is non-destructive hacking when you're on someone elses
system. I think if you're in public areas (usually pretty well defined)
that truly is non-destructive whether invited or not. I guess it's a POV
thing...Most sysadmins could care less about serious security risks
because they don't really have any to worry about...protecting employee's
privacy is another thing. Chrmsync doesn't like the idea of the govt.
having access to information about his income. If he's self employed or
out of work, student etc., he may have that option...most of us do not.
I'm not just talkin' about how much someone earns...That's often public
info anyway, but rather how they spend it. What kind of insurance do they
have, what's their phone number, where do they live? That's the type of
stuff that should be protected. Why should I like the idea of someone
hacking into that data anymore than you like the notion of the govt.
having access to personal info on an individual. What Chrmsync wrote that
seriously pissed me off was the hypocritical notion that it was evil for
the govt. to do this, but okay for him...IMHO it's wrong in both cases.

Now, the prosecution comment...to me, prosecute does not automatically
equal jail or huge fines...That is the worst form of simplistic thinking.
If that is truly how the SS views things, then they should stop behaving
like the Waffen SS and start acting like the US SS. I hate using the term,
it's so friggin' trendy, but there has to be a way of addressing computer
crime (yechh!) that's fair to the folks whose lives are entwined with
the computer systems hackers access, and yet not put someone in jail for
the electronic equivalent of repeated jay-walking offenses. It also MUST
at some point make a difference whether a profit motive was involved. If
someone turns a buck in this sort of thing then jail may indeed be
appropriate. If no money changes hands, and no data is altered or
destroyed then at some point compassion has to enter into the equation.
Phiber, not everyone that is responsible for a system is a heartless
bastard, many perhaps, but not all of us.

What's needed is little bit of "middle ground" and this system look like a
pretty good place to begin. Very little in life is black or white...It
often takes a few years and a lot of patience to sort it out... :-)

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 58 of 447
Subject: Re: Middle ground
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 92 17:18:38 EDT

What falconer said. Let's first sort out the issues--what counts as
criminal intrusion and what's passable as mere nuisance instrusion.
Then, what are appropriate responses for various kinds of "computer
crime." Like F said, that's a dodgy term, especially when sending a
bit of unauthorized software across state lines can make one liable
for federal charges of theft, ITSP, conspiracy, and wire fraud.
The US is the leading imprisoner of its population, and the mentality
that "hackers" (or any criminal, for that matter) deserves jail may
be popular, but it's increasingly unworkable, unjust, unethical,
and costly. Why invoke criminal procedings when civil ones can be as
effective? Why invoke the judicial process at all? We, as a society,
should be thinking about less formal responses to offenses rather
than chucking the offenders in jail as if it's some magic cure.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 59 of 447
Subject: issues and education?
From: black (Ronald Blackburn)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 00:35:37 EDT

Soemthing I'm interested in knowing is what is he educational background
and political affiliated of people on this place, Kroupa, Fancher, you
guys run this place, Abene, what did you guys major in?

This is one of the places it could go someplace, I really like the idea of
the round table area and would like to get some good stuff going and
invite more people to show up. When will the conferences work on this
thing?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 60 of 447
Subject: background
From: klarry (Larry Kessler)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 01:16:06 EDT

What does policitcal affiliated have to do with anything?

Education is something I'm interested in. If as has been claimed, you
can't gain the skills you need in school, then it might be a obvious
statement that something is wrong with the educational system that needs
to get looked at.

I'd also be interested in knowing the formal educational backgrounds of
Kroupa and Abene and Fancher as well, what did you study and why do you
feel it didn't help you reach whatever knowledge or experience you
needed, or did it?

The discussions taking place are steps in the right direction, I would
also like to see more people taking part in this from both sides. THere
have to be saner laws then those presently out there, there is a dividing
line between intrusion, curiosity and intent to sell or profit from what
someone is doing and the courts don't seem to be recognizing this right
now.

Klarry

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 61 of 447
Subject: |\/|y th0+z
From: vortechs (Vor Techs)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 04:16:08 EDT

i believe that there is nothing wrong with maliscious hacking...it would
seem that if someone was caught and hadnt actually destroyed or altered
anything, and there was no evidence of them turning a buck by doing it
that the company would be more greatful than suspicious...after all the
Hacker pointed out a security flaw which could be exploited by someone
much less nice.

I believe that information is power, Ialso believe it should be widely
available to anyone who wants it...power to the people. I know of
several friends of mine who have illegally( in the laws eyes) gained
access to various systems and used it to learn...they were never caught
and are now in fact writing software for some of the same places they
hacked.

System access is not a right, but more of a privelege or ability
(depending on how access is gained). I think that those who can
successfully make it into a system without permission can teach all of us
something, after all they possess knowledge that the majority of the
public isnt exposed to

Hacking isnt a crime

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 62 of 447
Subject: ?
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 06:13:35 EDT

That's a rather simple-minded attitude. Of COURSE there's something wrong
with malicious hacking! I don't think you're all too clear as to what
MALICIOUS means. It means evil. Destructive. Detrimental. If someone
REALLY hadn't damaged anything, they're not doing anything MALICIOUS.
(And I don't want to see any wise guys saying, "Well, just you BEING there
is damaging!" That's nonsense.) In fact, the words 'malicious' and
'hacking' don't even belong in the same sentence. And there's a hell of a
lot more to hacking than defeating security. (So you got in... THEN WHAT???)

This rather juvenile notion that by entering a system, you're somehow
helping the sysadmin is silly. Does he WANT to be helped? Does he even CARE?
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he hates you for being there. In that case, he
certainly doesn't want your help. Do you really expect anyone to believe
that you enter systems because you intend to HELP them? Come on. That's
more of an excuse than anything else. If you're there to LEARN something
for yourself, because you have no other way to do so, that's different.
Or maybe you're just curious. Or maybe you really are an evil, malicious,
destructive person.
If you're going to do something, you sure as hell should at least know WHY
you're doing it, and not make up some lame excuses. Because if you do
something foolish and don't know why, some very angry people are going to
end up TELLING you why. And you may not like their point of view,
especially if what they think aren't really your own reasons.

So make a choice: You can do foolish things and give foolish reasons for
doing them, or you can act responsibly and explain your reasons sensibly.
It's hard to argue with someone who has common sense on their side,
although people tend to do it anyway.

Good nite.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 63 of 447
Subject: Re: ?
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 13:45:06 EDT

phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:

> That's a rather simple-minded attitude. Of COURSE there's something wrong
> with malicious hacking! I don't think you're all too clear as to what
> MALICIOUS means. It means evil. Destructive. Detrimental. If someone
> REALLY hadn't damaged anything, they're not doing anything MALICIOUS.
> (And I don't want to see any wise guys saying, "Well, just you BEING there
> is damaging!" That's nonsense.) In fact, the words 'malicious' and
> 'hacking' don't even belong in the same sentence. And there's a hell of a
> lot more to hacking than defeating security. (So you got in... THEN WHAT???)
>
> This rather juvenile notion that by entering a system, you're somehow
> helping the sysadmin is silly. Does he WANT to be helped? Does he even CARE
> Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he hates you for being there. In that case, he
> certainly doesn't want your help.

I know from experience most administrators are so busy that they do not
have all the time needed to make sure their systems are secure. From what I
have seen, on mosat sites, system admin tasks are secondary, the main being
software development or network support. Some people I know are working 20
hours a day just to keep even.

As someone pointed out earlier, the days of breaking into a system just
because you wish to learn are over. You can obtain enough experience on
Unix or networks by bringing up your own equipment at home or the office.
Hell,
I see used Suns going for $900 with hard disks and operating systems.. Or
alternately you can obtain bsd 386 and bring something up on an Intel
platform. If you are just plain flat broke, you can get accounts on public
access systems or a account on a local internet site.. Of course
I am speaking to people who already now of all this. Perhaps my words will
have some benefit on the new wave of people who are about to see Mindvox
for the first time.

> Do you really expect anyone to believe
> that you enter systems because you intend to HELP them? Come on. That's
> more of an excuse than anything else. If you're there to LEARN something
> for yourself, because you have no other way to do so, that's different.

That excuse went the same way that "When they catch you, they'll hire you"
did.. I always despised people who were naieve to believe that.

> Or maybe you're just curious. Or maybe you really are an evil, malicious,
> destructive person.

Curiosity is great. That is what hopefully spurs us all on. BUT .. I
maintain that there is no need of doing anything illegal nowdays to
satisfy that curiosity.... There are enough friendly admins on the
internet to let you have a guest account. Then, with their knowledge and
cooperation, sure go ahead, try to locate security problems. You get the
same rush as always, just that it's legal then.. They you have helped
them,you have done what certain people say they are doing "helping"
,etc,etc. So, what can I say.. it just doesn't wash anymore.. I give away
accounts on any system I run because I know I cannot locate every
flaw in my security.. I don't have the time. Then, when my friends point
something out to me I am usually damned glad.

> If you're going to do something, you sure as hell should at least know WHY
> you're doing it, and not make up some lame excuses. Because if you do
> something foolish and don't know why, some very angry people are going to
> end up TELLING you why. And you may not like their point of view,
> especially if what they think aren't really your own reasons.
Or you may not like their point of view because they are federal and don't
even understand the difference between a good act and an evil act. It is
so hard to find anyone in law enforcement who does understand the
difference.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 64 of 447
Subject: Introductions
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 14:15:18 EDT

Topic drift (in order to avoid topic drift)--the backgrounds of users isn't
a bad idea to give us a better sense of where people are coming from.
Besides satisfying morbid curiousity, it helps reduce flames and keep
quality of posts/responses a bit higher.

Why doesn't somebody start an "introdutions" conference?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 65 of 447
Subject: intros
From: michelle (Michelle Harris)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 16:27:49 EDT

Yeah that would be fun, lets get it going. Introductions!

Without knowing exactly who is doing what, reading through this reads a
lot like any other listing of things that happens out in the real world.
There are people who are at some level of doing something that is
above-average and how they use their abilities depends a lot on how they
view the world I think. I haven't found anything that different between
Patrick and Mark or Chris, at least not in the way they present
themselves here.

I can judge what Patrick does because I can read it and see what it is.
I don't know what Mark or Chris really do because I can't see it, all I
can see is them talking about it so its harder to see who's right or
wrong, I'd think neither on is, Chris is just better at making people
think he's a good guy.

I also like long hair on guys, definite plus.

Jim Thomas is cool too, what do you do?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 66 of 447
Subject: INTroz
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 22:34:56 EDT

I think the plan file is an appropriate place to put "intro" information.

Patrick, bruce, phiber have theirs....

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 67 of 447
Subject: To hell with intros, let's philosophize.
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 22:58:44 EDT

Consider the word philosophy: Greek from lover of\knowledge.
Personally, I like having a buttload of data to view. And no, seeing
people's bank balances doesn't send shivers of excitement to my
extremities. Rather, I prefer having a large knowledge base. If I had
unlimited funds, I might be happy going to college an awful long time.
Hell, I've had three or four majors in my time at college (which is soon
to conclude, one way or another).
So, yeah, I'm curious. If I opted to hack these days, and I came across an
unfamiliar system, I'd try to go in, and see what it is. I cannot
seriously imagine myself deleting or altering data, however. I'll leave
that to other, previous co-workers (journalists, to be precise) who used
to hop into each other's files on our LAN (which I administered for a
short while) and mess around to be 'cute'. [And yes, I wanted tighter
security, but bosses will be bosses].
When it comes to privacy, which I view as a right [foremost: "Life,
Liberty, and Property], consider this:
Someone is sitting at home, curtains open, transparent windows, packaging
coke. The police drive by. While they are in the privacy of their own
home, they are willfully leaving a venue through which to be freely
observed. Now, how about if they have sheer curtains, that some people can
see through? (I think you can draw the hacking analogy through).

Then again, I *do* support the decriminalization of drugs [it's a property
right: the right to depose of your own property in any way you see fit,
provided it does not infringe upon another's right to Life, Liberty or
Property]. Consider this: drugs were legal, and few problems existed with
them. They were made illegal and ... [prohibition revisited].

And heck, let's flame (such peachy-keen jargon). I've often maintained, "I
prefer someone with a brain and an opposite opinion to a no-brained,
apathetic twit."

I never take myself or anyone else too seriously (when it comes to
arguments or debates).

As far as intros: Yeah, I'm still a college student, I work part-time (and
often for myself), was born in da sixties, like to drink, don't smoke or
'do' illegal drugs, and don't support cross-burning or flag-burning [but,
again, that's Property rights for ya.]

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 68 of 447
Subject: Argh
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 23:37:21 EDT

Jeez, between you and bandwith, Michelle, I'm really sorry I cut my
past-shoulder length ponytail.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 69 of 447
Subject: yeh yeh
From: vortechs (Vor Techs)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 00:27:40 EDT

I understand the meaning of maliscious just fine, but thanks for a
definition. Ack, tho in glancing over that post i believe i should have
separated first line and lines following...i would support any form of
hacking...but i dont think that non-maliscious hackers should be punished
if you are caught destroying data then sure you are guilty of a crime ,
but if you havent destroyed/altered(and other such words) anything then
you shouldnt be prosecuted...if there are known security holes and they
havent been fixed even after the sysadmin knows about them, then it is
more the SysAdmin's fault for whatever happens than the hackers...tho im
not saying if a system is wiped out because someone snuck in and wiped it
clean that the Administrators are to blame. How can you blame someone
for curiosity...there is a reason that someone doesnt want you looking at
special papers-why?

I didnt mean to make it sound as an excuse for getting caught but i do
believe that if there is a way for SysAdmins to watch and see how others
gain access to their systems then they should at least take notice and
try to correct the problem...i would never think a hacker would get a job
because he hacked into a system and was caught , im sure the SysAdmin
hates you for being there if he didnt willingly grant you access.

-Vort
-he who is bored most often

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 70 of 447
Subject: ...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 00:44:13 EDT

I never cease to be surprised when people smugly state "you don't have to
hack into something, why, you can BUY your own unix box for 'x' hundred
dollars." I had no idea that unix is all there ever was. There really
isn't anything else out there? Just unix??? Wow. Wait, isn't this Earth
in the 20th century? Whoops! Silly me! Back into the TARDIS!
<whoosh!>

That's like saying "Columbus didn't have to discover the New World and
annoy the natives, he had plenty of land in Europe to play with!"

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 71 of 447
Subject: Re: ...
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 01:06:30 EDT

phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:

>
> That's like saying "Columbus didn't have to discover the New World and
> annoy the natives, he had plenty of land in Europe to play with!"
>

That's a strange analogy, but let me take a stab at it anyway. You see
the natives only had bows and arrows, Columbus had guns. In the case of
hackers, if you consider yourself to be an explorer (ie: Columbus), you're
going to be dealing with natives (corporations) which are much larger than
you, and have the government on their side as well. If Columbus had bows
and arrows and the natives had machine guns, then things would have turned
out to be different.

Now personally, I would love to go exploring and digging through the juicy
files of <insert your favorite secure installation here> but
unfortunately, it's called tresspassing, and unless I have more weapons
than they do, I am not going to run in there screaming something
Emmanuel-Goldstien-ish like "Information yearns to be free!" only to have
my head blown off by a squad of goons with machine guns. Corporations
don't have Uzi-carrying goon squads (then again, maybe they do) but they
do have lawyers and are in bed with the government (SS,FBI,Justice Dept),
so it's basically the same thing.

Mark, whether you like it or not, in the real world "Might makes right."
The justice system is just a puppet of the corporations. The justice
system enforces laws passed by Congress and the President. The Congress
is owned by special interest groups (corporations), and the President is
owned and payed for by political action committees (corporations). If you
ask me who is running this country, I would say IBM, AT&T, GM, and Exxon,
and the rest of the Fortune 100. Yeah, I know it sucks, but there is no
reason to put yourself up as a sacrificial lamb just to point this out.
People much more powerful and influential than you have already tried (ie:
Abbie Hoffman) and were destroyed in the process.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 72 of 447
Subject: thug
From: zachs (John Zachs)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 01:45:48 EDT

That was a great message. That is what it all comes down to isn't it.
Columbus could do what he wanted because nobody could stop him, people can
stop hackers pretty easy with the legal system and all their money.

You'll notice that a lot of what columbus did was morally questionable, he
didn't bring peace and happiness to the natives, he brought them a lot of
death. That was a strange analogy to make Phiber.

The high of exploration might be a driving force, but when your
exploration becoming tresspassing, and those being tresspassed against
don't like you there. Then you're in deep shit and I can't say I see
where those being tresspassed against are morally wrong to want you out of
their systems and information.

Thug that was a really good message. :) Makes you think.

I vote yes for intros, Patrick Bruce and Phiber have theirs, but they dont
say anything anyway. It would be a fun board.
Zach

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 73 of 447
Subject: . . .
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 01:47:39 EDT

Re: Weaponry -

Naturally, we'd like to think major corps. don't have goons with guns.
I've done security before (along with a zillion other jobs) for a major
pharmaceutical corp., and I've done security for Lt. Col. Oliver North.

It's very easy to carry guns as a 'goon'. California Penal Code Section
12026 allows for individuals to carry firearms openly or concealed "in
their legal place of residence or business."

So do they have bigger guns?

Consider: could you seriously damage an energy company? Could they damage
you? If you wanted to could you (physically, not morally) destroy a power
plant or hydroelectric dam?

I think it's a matter of 'guts & glory'; Columbus wasn't sure what he'd
encounter, but he chanced it, with very little armament (most considered
'heathens' dumb animals ... you didn't *have* to kill them if you couldn'
t reson with them ... you could leave; only if they were persistant would
you exterminate.)

I have no doubt I could easily cripple a corp.; but hey, I have had some
special instruction in weapons and tactics. This training could easily be
passed along. Heck, I've taught liberal feminists to shoot.

In a similar vein, a hacker can create havoc for a major corp. IF SO
INCLINED. Heck, , I phiger phiber could show me around the Underground, if
I wanted to acquire than kind of skill.

I'd go on to say something about self-empowerment, and quote Tim Leary
(fun guy in person), but that's too weird for now.

"blank is beautiful"

Chrome Sync

[who prefers a mostly-low profile]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 74 of 447
Subject: ...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 02:49:06 EDT

thug: I ignore points made by people who accept defeat so easily, without
challenging wrong doing. There's a place for people who allow the world
around them to go to shit without a peep, just going about their own business.
This place is called a commune, and you would be a communist. A bee in a
hive.

Communist eastern bloc countries were tormented for years by evil bodies
of government with unknown amounts of power over their lives, and no one
did anything. Then, finally, miraculously, the people banded together and
kicked ass. Some even killed the rulers. Then they formed democracy from
the ashes. If that kind of fed-up, pissed-off,
I'm-not-going-to-take-it-anymore attitude existed to a larger degree in
this country amongst common people, there'd be a lot less bullshit that
rich, abusive, power-mongers would get away with. But alas, there's
people like 'thug', and people who think like him, who couldn't care less,
who may complain every so often, but just say "eh, what can ya do. I'll
just watch some more TV."

You said "might makes right"? I'm damn AMAZED that you would be completely
ignorant of the power of raw knowledge that can be turned into action
through machines, and compare this to the simple crude barbary of "goons
with guns". Spoken with true bluntness.
Intimidation by bullying muscle heads with guns is one thing. Murder is
another. What are you, afraid of being killed for hacking or something?
Get real.

I'm glad some of you people weren't around in colonial times. We'd all be
speaking British and paying tea tax today, and harboring the king's
militia whenever they felt like entering our houses.
Maybe John Hancock should've written the Declaration of Independence and
the Constitution. Maybe then, you'd SEE THE WORDS.

Long live the king.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 75 of 447
Subject: Re: Argh
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 09:48:17 EDT

cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:

> Jeez, between you and bandwith, Michelle, I'm really sorry I cut my
> past-shoulder length ponytail.

Yarp...off topic...see the reply in Women-Online.

-bwp

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 76 of 447
Subject: yeah right like i know what im tlaking about
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 14:50:21 EDT

i was just about to make this brilliant post
responding to every single post i just read
in a single sentence
when i got paged and started talking to someone so i will probably
just ramble and hope i hit that sentence

but seriously...
i think that some of what chrmsync is saying is being
missed..
he is not saying that people have the right to go through all
your personel records, and neither does the government
people and the government have the right to go through
any files that you leave on a computer hooked up to the
internet or a modem or anything where someone can
gain access to the system

now, is it okay to compare a computer to a house?
or what? if it is a privately owned computer that
just happens to have an internet connection, is that

not like aprivately owned house that just happends to
have a public street run by it?
(well neither of them just happen to be that way, but
i dont think it matters)

if someones door is left open or maybe at least unlocked
is that not like a computer that has no password to get in
or has a guest account?

so maybe security would be something like a lock on the door or maybe it is
infrared beams going across the doorway.. all can bne
related to different levels of security a comptuer can have

now what is the difference between a hacker hacking security and
getting into a system and a lockpick picking his way into a house
or safe or whatever lock?

lets say neither do anythign when they get inside except look around
whats the difference?

(except that chances are the lockpick would get charged
with less than the hacker?)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 77 of 447
Subject: Lockpick
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 15:11:52 EDT

The lockpick would be charged with trespassing and/or breaking & entering
and/or bugulary (if he took anything) -- all appropriate charges; he/she
would also be held responsible for the amount it cost to fix/replace the
picked lock if it were damaged -- once again, appropriate in this case
and, one could say, also appropriate in computer-cracking cases.

The lockpick would, however, not be held liable for the installation of a
multiple-thousand dollar burglar alarm system if the house owner decided
that such protection be required to insure that such intrusion not happen
again. Such action would be up to the house-owner who would have to decide
what prudent action is required to protect her/his property from intrusion
or bugulary. This type of liability is, however, charged by the
government against alleged or convicted computer intruders -- see the
$230,000 restitution responsibility contained in the sentencing of Riggs,
Darden & Grant and the $360,000 damages to Southwestern Bell contained in
the indictments against Phiber, Corrupt & Outlaw. If this type of
liability stands up, the motto of corporate America could turn out to be:
"Let a hacker intrude and fix your security holes." -- why bother
tightening security? Catch the first guy and make him pay for it.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 78 of 447
Subject: Luddites and apathy
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 16:19:16 EDT

Phiber writes:

>thug: I ignore points made by people who accept defeat so easily, without
>challenging wrong doing.

Sadly, we can't ignore their points. I find those who sit back in apathy
and grouse about conditions to be far more dangerous than those who
abuse their power. The mass of inertia of the apathetic folk is much more
difficult to overcome. They tend to grouse about conditions, gripe about
those who try to change them, and murk about in self-pity for their plight.
Attacking abuse of power is fairly easy. Mobilizing the coconut throwers
is not. Self-styled luddites rarely have any real understanding of
what Luddism was or what it entailed. Sad, ain't it?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 79 of 447
Subject: Re: Lockpick
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 16:54:43 EDT

mcmullen (John F. McMullen) writes:

> The lockpick would, however, not be held liable for the installation of a
> multiple-thousand dollar burglar alarm system if the house owner decided
> that such protection be required to insure that such intrusion not happen
> again.

John...This is true, but hacker is in no danger of being shot dead as is
the lockpick...at least in my home anyway.

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 80 of 447
Subject: minor points
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 20:01:56 EDT

i think phiber confuses a commune with a dictatorship.

'n chrmsync has gotta be a mondo subscriber.
(ya, lots of us were in th' audience when timothy leary came ta speak,
or at th' party afterwards, watching undergrad girls offer him acid or sex)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 81 of 447
Subject: Explorers
From: king (Randy King)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 20:38:17 EDT

This is sort of a tangent but gets back to the Columbus analogy. Hackers
are explorers entering a foreign land just as Columbus was an explorer
entering this (then-)foreign land. But, let's say that the Indians had
machine guns, anti-matter rays, and localized nuclear weaponry... And
lets again say that Columbus was a fungus (poor analogy from a hacker's
point of view, but bear with me). The Indians see this fungus growing a
bit but they do nothing about it because they figure no big deal. This
fungus then eats all their food or eats the Indians or whatever because
of their inaction. What am I getting at? I don't know...maybe if the
Indians had inspected the fungus closer than they did, they could have
realized it was a problem and could have done something to prevent its
spread to the point of damage to them (in this case death).

System administrators *KNOW* that there are holes in operating systems,
***SPECIFICALLY*** Unix, yet many of them do little to nothing to take
care of them. I don't know about you guys, but I got my vaccinations
when I was too young to realize what good it was...

TK

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 82 of 447
Subject: Burglars and Hackers
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 01:15:29 EDT

I think John M. was referring to the practice of alleged victims of
intrusions to jack up the value of "loss" by calculating subsequent
costs, such as added security, investigation, costs of program
development, and anything else they can tack on, to magnify the
danger of those "hacker terrorists." Some of the indictments from
the past two years shows a pattern especially of the Bell crowd of
claiming costs of developing programs as part of their loss.
If I pick you pocket for a buck-fifty, that's a misdemeanor.
Following the logic of BellSouth (as an example), I would add the
cost of the pocket, the cost of a new suit, and the cost of
body guards to prevent you from doing it again to jack the
$1.50 loss into a major expense.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 83 of 447
Subject: Hand Holding
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 01:43:42 EDT

TK sez that he was too young to understand what good immunization shots
would do him.

To extend the analogy a bit, do System Admins need a "mother" (c.f.
_Alien_ or perhaps _1984_) to lead them to the CERT-sponsored
electro-clinics?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 84 of 447
Subject: Okay..
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 11:52:26 EDT
In-Reply-To: <J4uBPB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Let's kill the Colombus analogy.
<bang! bang! bangbangbang!>

I think the hacker/home trespasser analogy as a bit screwed.

A hacker can't wake the SysAdmin's sleeping kid and shoot the entire
family dead. (unless he's a REAL PROGRAMMER that doesn't eat quiche).

Chrome Sync
(Mondo reader)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 85 of 447
Subject: Re: Okay..
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 13:08:06 EDT

chrmsync (Craig Stockwell) writes:

> I think the hacker/home trespasser analogy as a bit screwed.

i agree, but is there a better legal one?

> A hacker can't wake the SysAdmin's sleeping kid and shoot the entire
> family dead. (unless he's a REAL PROGRAMMER that doesn't eat quiche).

you _really_ underestimate the true power of the computer

no, but seriously...
this is a GREAT point
why should the person who can do the least harm
get the worst punishment?
i think it might be stupid to argue allthis
because im assuming we all agree? (that a robber is worse than a hacker)
maybe? maybe not?

so...
what about software piracy?
how much is microsoft really hurt by the fact that a large
part of the public that owns Windows or DOS, dont own it legally?
(this number is probably dropping relative to the
amount of people who dont know any better than to
apy for the software adn who dont know other computer users
well enoguh to trade stuff... but that doesnt mean that i
would EVER reccomend copying software that isnt supposed
to be distributed as such :-P )

but how bad of a crime is it?
what type of punishment should there be for owning pirated software
or distributing pirated software?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 86 of 447
Subject: The evil that corporations do
From: klarry (Larry Kessler)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 00:34:59 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8RqcPB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

In messages here I am always struck by this picture that is
made of corporations being these evil things that should be
stopped.

Where is that coming from? What right does anyone have to
a businesses data? It's none of your business!

I don't understand what the point of all this is, is business
bad now? That is the attitude that hackers seem to adopt, this
would mean that hackers want the return of communism where
"everyone is equally opressed" except those in power, who in
this case would be the hackers.

Same old story, new regime, nothing new, nothing different.

-Klarry>

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 87 of 447
Subject: Hackers
From: butler (Tom Butler)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 10:54:52 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1kmDPB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Most of the hackers I know are quite ethical. Their only quest is for
access to resources and information. Occasionally they might cross the
line and abuse their privledges, but for the most part they harm noone.
When I am in the position to hire computer professionals, I am going to
look at "hackers" first and foremost, regardless of what they have done
in the way of hacking. If you give someone the responsibility of
supporting a system, they can hack all they want while doing something
good for their company.

The Butler...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 88 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: dead (Bruce Fancher)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 14:37:23 EDT
In-Reply-To: <60eePB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That all depends on what you mean when you refer to "hacking."
Not every hacker (or "cracker" as they're called by the super-anal people)
is necessarily a talented programmer. Social engineering isn't really a
very useful talent if you're looking for a system operator. On the other
hand there is one alledged hacker in particuliar I know of who can program :-)
Phiber knows a hell of a lot more about programming then any of the
students I met in the Computer Science department at my University. Computer
Science classes in school involve esoteric theories and analyzing data types
on *paper*. Hacking is about as hand on as it gets . . .

Bruce Fancher -+- dead@phantom.com

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 89 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: czarina (Rita Rouvalis)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 14:55:09 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1kPePB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Maybe at Tufts, Bruce, but I did a shitload of programming at ULowell --
and I was only doing my minor.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 90 of 447
Subject: Re: The evil that corporations do
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 14:17:43 EDT

klarry (Larry Kessler) writes:

> In messages here I am always struck by this picture that is
> made of corporations being these evil things that should be
> stopped.

well they are

> I don't understand what the point of all this is, is business
> bad now?

no it always has been

> That is the attitude that hackers seem to adopt, this
> would mean that hackers want the return of communism where
> "everyone is equally opressed" except those in power, who in
> this case would be the hackers.

capitalism and communism really arent what anyone makes them out to be
and i really thought that the big commie scare was long over before the fall
of the SOCIALIST republic (and the DEMOCRATIC republic of East Germany)

stop calling me a commie just because i want to share information
that rich people what to keep secret so that they can stay rich

have you ever thought that the only reason rich people stay rich
is because they have enough money to bribe, oh im sorry lobby,
politicians into getting what they want done?
politics should have nothing to do with business and then maybe
capitalism would work, but politicians invest in the stock market too
and i dont know of many people who would pass legislation that would
be disadvantageous for a company they were part owners in

now as to why hackers might not like big business
(mind you small businesses are fine, its the monopolies that pretend
they are not, but really are that are the problem)

when a phone company gets to charge whatever it feels like
and give you whatever service it feels like and you dont
get a good choice is this capitalism?
no, so when hackers try to bring down the phone company
it is in favor of a freer market, so why complain?
big business is against capitalism, it is for republican ism though
ie keeping rich people rich and poor people poor

> Same old story, new regime, nothing new, nothing different.
only the names change

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 91 of 447
Subject: Stagnation
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 20:55:51 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9ZXNPB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Three days and not a new word posted. B-o-r-i-n-g!!

So, how can hackers affect social change ETHICALLY?

Is it reasonable to hack into a Senator's account somewhere and leave a
note, say on his TRW report indicating his 'account' at "U.S. Congress,
Inc." has been closed due to "unpaid / outstanding balance"?

okay, so it's a mildly humorous example. But how can hackers kindly
suggest to government (and monopolized big business) that they're screwed
and have their heads up the same collective ass?

Let's face it, Second amendment supporters can't just go and shoot their
opponents to get their point across. [actually, when one civic leader
suggested that gun control was necessary after a family was stabbed to
death was grimly humorous ... after all, if they'd been armed, they
wouldn't likely 've been stabbed to death).
So how can hackers send a clear message that (as a whole) they are not
rogues and rapscallions (i love alliteration), but rather just the
curious in the new age of information, and the big evil is big government
protecting big business, while ignoring the needs of 'the masses'?

Just thought I'd try to encourage some conversation. It's soo boring
seeing 'No new messages' on this forum.

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 92 of 447
Subject: Re: Stagnation
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 23:57:30 EDT
In-Reply-To: <sF1TPB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Perhaps hackers shape culture by challenging the dominance of those
who would otherwise be the sole controllers of information and
technological expertise.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 93 of 447
Subject: Re: Stagnation
From: ahmed (Ahmed Kufuti)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 02:49:23 EDT

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> Three days and not a new word posted. B-o-r-i-n-g!!

For a system that is not yet even open to the general public, I think the
posting and conversations have been quite excellent. Imagine what this
place will look like when people actually find out that it exists. I hope
that day comes soon.

Ahmed

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 94 of 447
Subject: Hacking
From: davel (Dave Lowens)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 17:38:18 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1gBwPB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I still don't see what the point of all this was. You can't justify
entering computer systems that dont belong to you just because you want
to or you think it would be a educational experience. They aren't yours
in the first place, there isn't anything giving youthe right to be on
them if you weren't invited.

If you want to learn, then there's nothing wrong with taking a class in
my opinion, there aren't many places that are interested in hiring people
who don't have at least a 4 year degree. If you don't have the basics,
all you're ever going to end up doing is grunt work.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 95 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking/4-year degrees
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 00:46:06 EDT
In-Reply-To: <JmoJqB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That would depend on where you want to get a job. I know of many
hackers who only have 4 year degrees and are doing R&D work, somebody just
had to give them a chance to get a start. The problem is that most firms
don't have the time or interest in dicking around with people who might
have what it takes and then again might not.
Dedicated hackers in the classical sense have my highest
admiration, but there aren't as many of them around as there used to be, I
don't know what "today's" hackers end up doing, I guess it's not different
then what yesterday's hackers did, except more of them are having a much
harder time finding jobs without at least 4-year degrees because there is
such a glut of CS grads in the 90's.

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 96 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 13:04:28 EDT
In-Reply-To: <JRXNqB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

davel->

I am a comp. engineering major at UCSC, and I am a hacker (although not
as much now as I used to be) I think that hacking truely helped me become
what I am now, I walked into the first year of school knowing as much
about UNIX as most of the Seniors (well, almost) This was all from
hacking, pure and simple. I learned a lot, and it WILL help me with my
future career.

I am a hacker who believes in exploring, fucking around and not
destroying. In the 7 years that I have hacked, I have NEVER deleted a
fiule that I didn't create. period. I think if more people believed in
that, hacking would have a better name.

Ill stop prying into your privacy when you stop being so fucking
secretive.

-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 97 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking
From: davel (Dave Lowens)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 00:34:22 EDT
In-Reply-To: <6XVoqB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Toxic, I agree with everything up to the last sentence, people
have curtains because they want privacy, they have locks, they have
barriers they put between themselves and other people. That's their
right, whether its because they want it just because they do, or because
they're hiding something. If it isn't illegal, it's nobody's business
what's going on in databases or records that don't belong to you.
You have all the right to request what records say about you, but
you don't have the right to see what they say about other people, their
business, or whatever else they're doing.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 98 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking
From: davel (Dave Lowens)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 00:39:00 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ZVRPqB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Another thing I forgot to mention in the previous message, I
agree with what you said about hacking helping you in school, but if you
didn't go to school and get the degree, then you'd have a hard time
finding a job where you could apply your skills to anything more
complicated then maintenance. With so many computer literate grads
coming out o schools, being a CS major is becoming like being a lawyer,
there are too many of them for too few jobs and a big percentage of them
aren't that great. The industry is going to have massive changes when
Cyberspace becomes more real for more people, then people in China and
Asia are going to be getting jobs and american CS grads will be working
at McDonalds.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 99 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 01:10:48 EDT
In-Reply-To: <P4RPqB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yes, people have the right to lock their belongings, and the better right
lock that they put on, the less likely something is going to be stolen.
However hacking is different, When I wander through a system, I don't
take things away, I just look at them, occasionally make a copy and the
like. Nothing like stealing. I have a lock on my apartment, but I make
it a point to leave my UNIX account ungarded. Yep, no password (it isn't
true with this system, don't even try it) I keep duplicates of anything
important, and if someone logs in as me and plays around, more power to
them.

Lock your belongings, but you dont _OWN_ the series of 0 and 1's that
make up a file.

-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 100 of 447
Subject: Re: The evil that corporations do
From: heretic (The Heretic)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 03:35:05 EDT

klarry (Larry Kessler) writes:

>
> In messages here I am always struck by this picture that is
> made of corporations being these evil things that should be
> stopped.

Personally, I really do believe that large corporations have truly
evil tendencies which must be actively held in check. Big

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 103 of 447
Subject: Re: The role of Today's Hacker
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 12:15:54 EDT
In-Reply-To: <94PTqB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Having never been more than a one-bit hacker [two-bit joke], and only a
small-time journalist, I'll throw in my two cents:

Many journalists heavily bend the law (and yes, even break it) for a
story. Even though interns and writers are preached to about ethics,
editors often encourage you to 'shake somehting loose' or 'check new
sources'. Talk of trashing is not unheard of at all. While I've yet to
hear of phone taps (though it wouldn't surprise me to much), there's
scanners for cellular phones and parabolic mikes.
And although listening in on cell stuff is illegal, parabolic mikes can
be, if the people are in 'public, with no reasonable expectation of
privacy' ... so if they're at a park bench, it's obvious that they're in
public, and anyone can jog by. Or in a restaurant ... anyone might
overhear them. There's a large grey area abused often.

Confidential police reports come the way of some well-connected
journalists. We had a rape/assault story, and I managed to find the
victim's name. My personal ethics were to keep it to myself, and have the
data, so I could confirm or deny rumor or conjecture about the victim's
identity. I suppose if I had undergone a similar trauma, I might have
approached the victim to comfort her, and later suggest she talk with a
'friend of mine' who was a reporter.

The government (esp. law enforcement) can no longer get journalists to
roll over on their sources, with the First Amendment so respected. Yet
hackers are squashed whenever possible, because they're the new RED MENACE
of the 80/90's.

Frankly, I have no problem with people looking [and not taking/destroying]
files/data -- it's like me watching someone's house with binoculars ... if
they close the curtains and lock the front door [use good security, and/or
don't put data online], I won't be peepin' in.

BTW, what happened to Phiber?

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 104 of 447
Subject: Re: The role of Today's Hacker
From: dead (Bruce Fancher)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 18:06:16 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8oDuqB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Mark Abene (aka Phiber Optik) is no longer with Phantom Access
Technologies. Various legal agreements and prohibt me from saying anything
further.

Bruce Fancher -+- dead@phantom.com

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 105 of 447
Subject: Re: The role of Today's Hacker
From: heretic (The Heretic)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 00:21:17 EDT

lex (Lex) writes:

> I think the role of today's hacker is not to test system security for the
> owners good, but rather to expose those things that threaten the majority.

Yes, but not because we're Robin Hoods --heroic tweakers of the
system who are defined as inversions of the system. I think the
difference between Robin Hood and Sheriff Whoeverthefuck is
primarily one of style. If we want to really do any good we
have to think about developing and spreading some kind of hacker
perspective. There's something enlightened in the traditional
hacker approach to ideas and technology. Whatever it is, it
makes trying to own algorithims look sick and damaging. At
least that;s the way I see it. Anyway, the ultimate goal of
a hacker should be to preserve an environment in which the
positive aspects of hacking are emphasized and can be freely
pursued. We need to think about what this environment would
be like. We need to hack and social engineer a hacker's future,
and that's a lot more demanding and active than fighting
the control freak corporations in a piecemeal fashion.

> For example, I do not think TRW would have as easily decided to give out free
> credit reports and make it easier to correct mistakes if it weren't for
> hackers helping to bring attention to them through the various breakins
> and articles (such as those in 2600 not to mention the "popular" media).
> It may still be illegal for them to prove that people's conversations are
> not safe from eavesdropping but there is a service to the public that is
> done in the process. I am not encouraging today's hackers to go out and

It's a small service to the public unless it pushes communications
towards the use of good cryptography. If such eavesdropping
merely makes the public wiser, the laws harsher, and the law
enforcement worse, then there's no cause for celebration.

> Just remember every day you wake up you now have less privacy than the
> previous day. Perhaps hackers should devote more time to bringing
> attention to "big brother-ish" systems which can threaten everyone, rather
> than helping rich companies get richer by shoring up their security
> weaknesses. Or worse yet, by trying to gain personally from their hacking
> exploits (although few may actually do it, many probably try it).
Amen. And we should all vote for Clinton if our principles permit
us to vote. We need someone like Larry Tribe filling the next
vacancy in the Supreme Court.
>
> Lex
>

--Heretic

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 106 of 447
Subject: Re: The role of Today's Hacker
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 02:45:49 EDT
In-Reply-To: <7X08qB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

> Amen. And we should all vote for Clinton if our principles permit
> us to vote. We need someone like Larry Tribe filling the next
> vacancy in the Supreme Court.

I don't think we should vote for a big-brother governmentalist,
or a former CIA Chief ....

Maybe Howard Phillips, who wants an end to the Federal Reserve and the IRS.

I'd rather thumb my nose at the proverbial executioner (or my freedoms)
than vote for one of two who will send the executioner to me (I don't give
a frick whether it's a President with an '-R' or '-D'; either way, I'll
bet we're gonna get screwed.

Anybody have comments on _Sneakers_ as a hacking rolemodel?

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 107 of 447
Subject: Sneakers as role model
From: davel (Dave Lowens)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 13:48:49 EDT
In-Reply-To: <3mg9qB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

> Anybody have comments on _Sneakers_ as a hacking rolemodel?

My favorite part of Sneakers is where the black box decodes the ASCII
text and turns it into VGA full color maps accessible without a password.

I don't know what to make of Sneakers, those that liked it are mostly
Robert Redford fans, it didn't seem to have any big message except as you
aquire power you become more like that which you despise or are trying to
change, ultimately replacing the old system with a new one, the only
difference being who's on top.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 108 of 447
Subject: Re: Sneakers as role model
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 16:56:14 EDT
In-Reply-To: <3BB0qB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Gosh, a Beowulf-ish interpretation ...

As a Libertarian and Capitalist, I have some conflicts in ethics ..
"information wants to be free" versus "right to privacy".

Then again, I doubt anyone but big-government liberals (yes, I know, not
all liberals are big government) liked the idea of the government spying
on everybody WITHIN the country.

Personally, I think nothing critical should be on open access lines in the
first place. But that's just me and my plot problem with _Wargames_.

Oh, yeah, aand who the hell uses the old Atari acoustic modem anymore (I
got rid of mine in '83 or so ...)

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 109 of 447
Subject: Sneakers; pros + cons
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 92 17:37:04 EDT
In-Reply-To: <F1J0qB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Asside from the several technical flaws in the movie (knocking the phone
off of the acoustic coupler to avoid a trace wouldn't disconnect the
line, walking two inches per second in a room won't set off the motion
detector; yet neither will the fish swimming full speed in the fishtank
behind, and the fact that in 1959 there weren't too many VGA monitors :))
it was a pretty good movie.

Coupled with alot of decent humor sure kept the audience captive, not to
mention making it very easy to understand, even for the non
computer-literate.

A few things they conjured up were quite nice. For instance, their
little TRW term program with fancy coloring and text seperation was hot.
We could use one of those :). But as for happening to have the sound of
road, railroad tracks, and the tire size already preprogrammeed into a
nice synthesizer is highly unlikely, but they were sneakers.

I'd give it 3.5 stars.

tmh:speakeasy

(it would be pretty impossible to come up with a 'good' hacker movie)

Someone should invite Dan Aykroyd to HohoCon!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 110 of 447
Subject: Re: Sneakers; pros + cons
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 00:03:49 EDT
In-Reply-To: <HwL0qB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

On purely entertainment merit, it was great. 5 stars. Loved it. If I think
about technical flaws in movies, I would never enjoy anything. Just think
about it. Who besides hackers would like a real hacker movie?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 111 of 447
Subject: Re: Sneakers; pros + cons
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 92 00:22:03 EDT
In-Reply-To: <3s40qB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That's why there will never be a 'real hacker movie' because nobody but
computer hackers and an ocassional fed and lunatic would go see it.
But other than that, it'd be a great movie. Becides, you'd have sold x
amounts of tickets pretty much guarenteed.

tmh

And hackers will act for CHEAP!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 112 of 447
Subject: Re: another thing...
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 14:26:23 EDT

phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:

> On a more personal level, have any of you ever had a gun pointed at your
> head? How about two guns, in the bed you sleep in, in your own home, by
> two complete strangers, accompanied by 10 others? No, you say?
> Well, believe me, it does wonders for one's faith in the justice system.
>

You only had two guns pointed to your head?
But seriously, it is not a fun experience. Nor is getting hand cuffed,
having a guy watch you take a piss, or being forced to stand in profile
for a picture. And I used to think that crap like this only happened in
the movies.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 113 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 16:02:37 EDT

Actually, I often sleep with a loaded gun within reach of my bed.
Given the often loud entry of law enforcement serving a "high risk"
warrant (read: supposedly dangerous criminal), I have a feeling the
ensuing firefight would likely take several lives.
Anyone entering my house by force is likely to become dead very quickly
(esp. since they don't always announce who they are, and certainly don't
do so loud enough to reach my room on the second floor of the place).

Better to die free than live enslaved (or terminally oppressed) ...

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 114 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 21:20:42 EDT

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> Actually, I often sleep with a loaded gun within reach of my bed.
> Given the often loud entry of law enforcement serving a "high risk"
> warrant (read: supposedly dangerous criminal), I have a feeling the
> ensuing firefight would likely take several lives.

It's certainly your business if you want to post stuff like the above in a
public forum, but I really feel compelled to tell you that law enforcement
types take this sort of thing VERY seriously. In a recent incident
involving the SS, the central reason behind one individual being
approached as though he were armed and dangerous was a string of public
pronouncements very similar to the one you've made in your posting. This
is not idle gossip.....It is the simple truth.

Whether you're noticed or not, I suppose you ought to know that there is a
very mixed bag of users on MindVOX. It is almost a certainty that at least
one of them is an employee of the Treasury Department, and quite possibly,
an SS agent. If the above was intended as a joke, I urge you, in the
friendliest possible terms, to retract it very quickly. It's not a loss
of face, or a big deal...It's just common sense.

Regards,

Steve Copold

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 115 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 22:30:36 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8wesRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, acutally, part of the impetus for my well-armed nature stems from
GOOD contact with law enforcement. I'll explain:

My first contacts with LE (law enforcement) were good, in my youth ...
friends of the family, etc. So, it's not at all like I have a disrespect
for law enforcement officers themselves.

When I started writing for a newspaper, I soon volunteered to be the one
to do the police beat. I spoke with the chief and a few of the sergeants
(supervisors) ... the chief happened to be interested in sailing, as did
my father (who sold boats at the time) ... needless to say, it was a good
relationship.
My marked interest in guns (from father's previous military service,
interest in maintaining freedom, etc) did not go unnnoticed by the chief,
who suggested I get in touch with the firearms sergeant. We talked a
couple times before meeting, and hit it off very well. When we finally
met, at a public event, he largely ignored his compatriots and I mine, and
we blabbed on and on about different firearms, opinions on stopping
power, current legislation, etc. etc.

He offered to let me shoot the next time the departmental quarterly
qualifications came up ... at this point, it was obvious I was beyond
being a journalist digging for secrets of the local police,and was more
interested in firearms skill and responsible use. As it happened, I shot
better than all but three members of the department ..

As our conversations went on, it became obvious that my interest in law
enforcement as a career far overshadowed that of journalism. So, we talked
about topics involving officer gun safety, shoot/don't shoot, concealed
carry (when and when not to). When we happened acrss the issue of the old
'gun in the night stand', he offered that he keeps his close to, but not
in immediate reach when he sleeps. The purpose is this: given an intruder
presence that awakens oneself, moving,say, three of four feet, OUT OF BED,
to a firearms is not likely to forfeit the element of surprise ...
alternately, a spouse coming home late, sneaking in, or a kid up for milk
and cookies would be recognized ass such *because* the getting out of bed
and getting a firearm ready gives the mind enough time to 'wake up' and
identify the target (as friend or foe).

When I lived in east San Diego, our house was broken into three times. On
one occassion, cthe intruders were caught about 80 meters down the street,
armed. We had just got home. Had we arrived ten minutes earlier ... I
might not be here.

My point is this: I honestly believe that citizens should be armed.
Criminals have weapons, and will use them offensively. I have arms, and
will use them defensively. Should someone enter my house, unannounced
(let's be euphemistic here), I have no compunctions about firing upon them
if I do not recognize them as friends. And, my friends do not break in my
door (at least not unannounced) ... if that happens, I figure it's serious
gang crime, and I'll be 'lazin' & blaz'n'

A word on currrent legislation: sucks.

However, I will attempt to change laws that I deem unreasonable through
legal channels. Only when the government falls completely into a
fascist/socialist/oppressive state (that tries to confiscate my firears)
will I act very illegally, ,and (instead) will act morally, on the behalf
of freedom.

Like Nathan Hale, I would regret having only one life to give for the
country AS IT WAS STARTED by our Founding Fathers ...

And if I do go into law enforcement (and I have been invited by a couple
Chiefs-of-Police to join their departments), I would enforce most laws
that I am opposed to (like those involving adult use of drugs safely in
the provacy of their own homes). But, if asked to confiscate the arms of
honest citizens, I'm afraid I'd have to decline or refuse that assignment.

BTW, the SS already has me on file for protesting Bush ... guess it
must've been the 'radical' group I was with. It's exciting seeing a sniper
team 'scoped in' on you ... they just wouldn't wave back ...

The Ever-Libertarian

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 116 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 02:58:47 EDT
In-Reply-To: <P6HsRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

What, no response??

Going on two days (y'know, like nearly 48 hours), and no ratrional or
irrational reaction to a libertarian gunner ?
(who's also pro law enforcement).

Or is that too unusual for this forum??

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 117 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 00:03:28 EDT

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> What, no response??
>
> Going on two days (y'know, like nearly 48 hours), and no ratrional or
> irrational reaction to a libertarian gunner ?
> (who's also pro law enforcement).
>
> Or is that too unusual for this forum??
>

I only call every 2 days, but your message didn't seem all that
unusual. I know quite a few libertarians who would love their country if
the country they lived in had anything to do with the country our founding
fathers envisioned. I was born here, educated in England and came back to
live here and I love America. Taking a look around, it makes me
embarassed to call myself an American when I'm abroad.

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 118 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 17:38:32 EDT

paulk (Paul Kerrios) writes:

> chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:
>
> > What, no response??
> >
> > Going on two days (y'know, like nearly 48 hours), and no ratrional or
> > irrational reaction to a libertarian gunner ?
> > (who's also pro law enforcement).
> >
> > Or is that too unusual for this forum??
> >
>
> I only call every 2 days, but your message didn't seem all that
> unusual. I know quite a few libertarians who would love their country if
> the country they lived in had anything to do with the country our founding
> fathers envisioned. I was born here, educated in England and came back to
> live here and I love America. Taking a look around, it makes me
> embarassed to call myself an American when I'm abroad.
>
>
> //=======================================\\
> Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
> \=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
> \\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

Hate to say it, or not, come to think of it I don't hate to say it... I
just don't give a shit, at all. There isn't anything in this country that
I've found worth following. It's like to be a politician, you have to be
so corrupt to even get near that, forget it, I don't know what I'm saying,
I know what I feel and what I feel is if some dumb motherfucker wants to
go kick some third world country's ass in, he can go get himself a gun and
drag his ass over there and shoot people, count me out.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 119 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 20:56:07 EDT
In-Reply-To: <XmoXRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

> Hate to say it, or not, come to think of it I don't hate to say it... I
> just don't give a shit, at all. There isn't anything in this country that
> I've found worth following.

Then, pardon my French, but the fuck are you here? If everything is so bad
and you're so apathetic, go the hell somewhere else.

It's probably because I'm younger (born in the sixties) that I'm not
completely cynical that I still care about my country.

I imagined the reason we all gather here to post messages is that we have
interest in what goes on in our lives, and those things that might change
them for the better or worse should be discussed, or at least taken notice of.

The tone of this is meant to be inquisitive and forceful, but not too
insulting. Just thought I'd set that straight. (You'll know when I'm
rattling sabres ..)
Trying to feed those hungry for thought,

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 120 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 23:16:30 EDT

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> > Hate to say it, or not, come to think of it I don't hate to say it... I
> > just don't give a shit, at all. There isn't anything in this country that
> > I've found worth following.
>
> Then, pardon my French, but the fuck are you here? If everything is so bad
> and you're so apathetic, go the hell somewhere else.

Got a better place? Moving is a hassle.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 121 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 02:25:51 EDT
In-Reply-To: <804XRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeah.. Right. They call this a free country, but the only thing that is
free is the air, and that's dirty.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 122 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 19:44:02 EDT
In-Reply-To: <s2cyRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

> Got a better place? Moving is a hassle.

Hell, I've found 'shit worth following' ... maybe someone should look
harder or llok elsewhere, 'coz I'm moderately content with where I am.

We still have free speech (except on some school campi), we can own guns
(just not ones that work to defend ourselves with) and we're free to have
our wealth arbitrarily redistributed (taxation).

Still, it's a decent place. Where else can you die for you country at age
17 or 18 in a war, but not drink in a pub until you're 21.

There are problems that politicans have introduced altering the way our
founding fathers set up the country. Changes that have fucked it up a bit

1. The Federal Reserve
2. Income Taxes
3. Public Education

At least now there is a way to have some personal power -- hacking.

Unfortunately, it seems too many people would use this for their own
monetary gains, sadistic delight, or to an ends that hurts another
individual ... rather than screwing with an unfair government.

The beauty is that, in many cases, the machinery to enforce the laws of
the land are hampered by their own laws and lack of knowledge of the
current technology. As long as a person is aware of the state of
legislation and state of technology, there's no reason he should seriously
fear the government.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a let's-riot-in-the-streets anarchist (or any
type of anarchist, for that matter), but a libertarian who thinks that this
is one of the best nations around CURRENTLY. It just needs some help, and
that's what we're here for ...

Trying to be only mildly pugnacious,
So as not to be renamed "Chrome Nova",

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 123 of 447
Subject: Re: Guns at your head ...
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 00:44:15 EDT
In-Reply-To: <44oZRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I was going to post but then moved it to the thread in social politics, if
you guys don't read that area, I'm not apathetic, I am tired of people
selling me shit that isn't true. There are things I care about, this place
is one of them, but this is a unique situation where a lot of people who
wouldn't ever get together are in one spot, having this conversation with
people who live around me would be a waste of my time.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 124 of 447
Subject: Too many guns in america...
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 18:22:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <goX2RB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Although i think that a society should be able to set its own rules
as long as the mojarity agrees and the society is small enough
(im talking about a city, not a country, and a mid-sized city not a
metropolis)
ya know, something like blacks have to go aroud with collars on

and if you dont like the rules that any particular society
has, then you dont live there,
but it doesnt really work because what if people decide
to move in all around you adn change the majority opinion
why should you have to leave?
or what if you were just born into the society but dont like it
and cant afford to move,
personally i would rather live somewhere else than america
but its not really economical for me to leave and the longer i stay here
the harder it would be for me to leave
but dont ask me what im really alking about
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 125 of 447
Subject: Gun shtuff
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 18:30:35 EDT

the one question i have for you is:

are guns really the most important thing wrong inthe US?
you said that you would be willing to support laws that
you disagree with
(which i respect and know a few cops who bust guys for selling pot
just before they go out and smoke some, but they are just doing their job
and thats cool)

but the one law you couldnt do that for is gun control?
arent there more serious things?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 126 of 447
Subject: Re: Gun shtuff
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 15:20:08 EDT
In-Reply-To: <o2u9RB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, hotblack, first & foremost, I think we've moved this discussion, per
se, to the social: politics forum.

But as long as we're here (as opposed to the lobby, third floor or loading
dock or somewhere else ...)

Really, the second amendment can protect all the others, since it is a
call for people to arm themselves against any oppressive government, even
their own.

The biggest thing wrong with the U.S. right now is the size and scope of
the government. They tax us unfairly, try to set up socialist programs
that serve themselves best, and spend more than they make. They regulate
and make laws to no end, and no longer hold personal freedom above "society".

My personal 'dig' with guns happens to be one discussion/argument that I
feel pretty well qualified to engage in, compared to, say, abortion.
Right now, if you were to rape someone, the min. prison sentence you'll
get if convicted is 36 months. You've hurt someone, destroyed their life
potentially, and broken the moral standard of society.

If, alternately, you own a banned assault rifle (in Cal.), an act which
has no identifiable victim, and breaks no moral rules or standards, just
legislative ones, you'll go for a min. of 4 years.

Obviously, to our current regime, I mean government, upholding a right
guanteed in the Second Amendment is more heinous a crime than violating
someone's person sanctity.

And some people think I'm whacked ...

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 127 of 447
Subject: Re: Gun shtuff
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 00:56:00 EDT
In-Reply-To: <0VgasB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Chrome Sync writes:

>Right now, if you were to rape someone, the min. prison sentence you'll
>get if convicted is 36 months. You've hurt someone, destroyed their life
>potentially, and broken the moral standard of society.

>If, alternately, you own a banned assault rifle (in Cal.), an act which
>has no identifiable victim, and breaks no moral rules or standards, just
>legislative ones, you'll go for a min. of 4 years.

>Obviously, to our current regime, I mean government, upholding a right
>guanteed in the Second Amendment is more heinous a crime than violating
>someone's person sanctity.

Sentencing varies dramatically by state, and the identify the
minimum sentence is misleading, especially when failing to
distinguish between determinate and indeterminate sentencing.
The avergage sentence imposed in Illinois for prisoners convicted
of violent sexual assault was, from 1984-1990, about 12 years. Perhaps
Chrom Synch could present some figures to justify his claim that
possessing an unauthorized firearm is a "more heinous crime" than
rape (or another crime that violates one's "sanctity."

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 128 of 447
Subject: CSOOCD
From: universe (Universe)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 19:45:33 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2J8asB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Greetings. I thought I was on Ethics:Hacking, but instead I have found
myself on a strange new system named CSOOCD, that is, Centralized Ssystem
for Out Of Context Discussion. Most interesting, the menu allows me to
choose discussions about guns and other things, but not much hacking
stuff. Personally I'd be interested hearing any who feel that new mthods
must be continually expolored and who have done so. I have little
experience in this, but it is interesting. I'm not just referring to
comoputers , phones, sat dises, but living itself, like in hacking life.
This may sounds flaky, but I don't mind because I think that other realms
of existance and alternative ways of being and creating your own reality
are the most imoportant type of "hacking" that there is.

Universe, from somewhere in Andromeda...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 129 of 447
Subject: Hacking Life
From: king (Randy King)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 21:36:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m7gRsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

While I think Universe is a TOTAL flake 8-), I think that there's
something to what he has to say...

I couldn't hack my way into a Unix box much less out of one, but I think
hacking involves an understanding of the grand scheme of things. I try
to do this with everything I get involved in in life, or at least to the
point where it seems to be leading to an end. Like with the nets, I like
to know where all of the net resources are or at least know that I have a
place that I can put my finger on to find out. I like to know all of the
little interesting utilities like whois and nslookup, etc. At work, I
like to know the reason I'm doing what I'm doing, what happens after I do
it, and why. Dealing with people, I like to know why they react one way
to something I say or another because of a tone in my voice.

Maybe I'm a flake too...

TK
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 130 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 07:26:14 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ZBmRsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

You're a flake Randy.

I learned alot about the 'grand scheme of things' and found
its amazing how much you can accomplish if you put your mind
to it. Flexibility, adaptation and vision are all traits of
success, be it hacking or elsewhere.

RE

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 131 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 19:04:26 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Fa9TsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The whole attitude and curiosity that surrounds hacking is really the
result of an already inherent mentality, I believe. Hackers are by nature
curious people, who crave to know how things work. The hackers that I
know (and this is admission that I am no hacker...just a wannabe) are the
kind of people that need to understand everything around them. At the
same time, because they generally succeed in knowing how most things
around them work, they develop (sometimes well deserved) egos. The
mindset that prevails amongst hackers is not something that develop after
they start. However, there is a difference that is hard to put a finger
on. There are many "UNix Wizards" and high level programmers out there
with the same curiosity and craving for knowledge that hackers have. Yet
many of them don't spend any time at all attempting to gain illegal access
to various machines. Hackers tend to have a daring attitude, I think, and
their daring attitude is also a part of their ego. I'm not busting on
hackers as egomaniacs, by the way. LIke a good athlete, if you can walk
the walk, then by all means talk the talk.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 132 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 00:43:57 EDT
In-Reply-To: <40ywsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Out of all the hackers and crackers I know, I don't know any who don't
take their egos with them all over the place when they are around in
cyberspace, generally act like dicks. Most of the reason why they are
different from the Unix Expert who doesn't break the law, is because the
Unix Expert has a life, however small it is, in the real world. The hacker
is usually a total Melvin and his life is his identity in cyberspace.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 133 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 02:27:24 EDT
In-Reply-To: <yZeXsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Alibaba: phft

TK: :)

Redeye: You seem to have said it best.

The reason that you guys left off, on why *I* hack, along with the
various other legitimate reasons supplied by TK, and others, is that so I
know, that if it comes down to it, and my life is on the ropes, that I
could still illegally make a very nice living, without a college degree
know substantially more than someone who social engineered (or even
actually did the blasted work) through school, just knowing that I am
capabile of raising hair-kari over the rest of the world, all by my
lonesome.

Now, how close it that to the psychological profile of a criminal?
<chuckle>

tmh

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 134 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 21:59:58 EDT
In-Reply-To: <DgeZsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That is precisely why I own a gun.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 135 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 92 15:21:48 EDT

alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:

> Out of all the hackers and crackers I know, I don't know any who don't
> take their egos with them all over the place when they are around in
> cyberspace, generally act like dicks. Most of the reason why they are
> different from the Unix Expert who doesn't break the law, is because the
> Unix Expert has a life, however small it is, in the real world. The hacker
> is usually a total Melvin and his life is his identity in cyberspace.
>

Bullshit. Not all hackers are 'dicks' who have egos, its only the ones
you hear about. Most hacking is done and then not talked about, so HOW
can an ego be built. I agree sometime s egos do get the better of
hackers (and especially crackers, software pirates) but that is rare.
Dont take hackers on the basis of what you hear on #hack or in
alt.hacking.kool.kool.kool

Many of us DO have lives outside of the scene. I for one am a student and
a UNIX expert (and a COmp. Engineering major) and hacking got me there.
-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 136 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 92 10:24:24 EDT

toxic (Toxic Avenger) writes:

> alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:
>
> > Out of all the hackers and crackers I know, I don't know any who don't
> > take their egos with them all over the place when they are around in
> > cyberspace, generally act like dicks. Most of the reason why they are
> > different from the Unix Expert who doesn't break the law, is because the
> > Unix Expert has a life, however small it is, in the real world. The hacker
> > is usually a total Melvin and his life is his identity in cyberspace.
> >
>
>
> Bullshit. Not all hackers are 'dicks' who have egos, its only the ones
> you hear about. Most hacking is done and then not talked about, so HOW
> can an ego be built. I agree sometime s egos do get the better of
> hackers (and especially crackers, software pirates) but that is rare.
> Dont take hackers on the basis of what you hear on #hack or in
> alt.hacking.kool.kool.kool
>
> Many of us DO have lives outside of the scene. I for one am a student and
> a UNIX expert (and a COmp. Engineering major) and hacking got me there.
> -Tox

Not arguing with you dude, you yourself said it "its only the ones you
hear about" who else am I supposed tobe talking about? half the userlist
on this thing are "the ones you hear about" and most of them seem calm and
ok but then again their grown-up and not what they used to be like.

Even the response you gave me was one of "how dare you"

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 137 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 92 09:32:19 EDT
In-Reply-To: <DVP4sB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, it is quite obvious that there are very few REAL hackers posting in
this message base.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 138 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 92 14:51:53 EDT

delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes:

> Well, it is quite obvious that there are very few REAL hackers posting in
> this message base.

No shit, especially lately when we have born again christians who used to
steal credit cards and sell them posting what REAL hackers are about. I'd
say there's a real communication problem.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 139 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Sat, 24 Oct 92 17:28:36 EDT
In-Reply-To: <7ww6sB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

first of all, hi tox, hi tmh.

Anyway... Maybe you guys should try to describe who you are talking about
when you say "hackers". From my experience in cyberspace, most everyone
who is a sysadmin (a good one), a programmer, or whathaveyou, is a
hazcker in some way or another. Mostof the people who hang around in
#hack and so on are generally school kids or people who have just
graduated and gotten their diplomas, and don't know what to do, and don't
have any goal in their hacking, and so one. There should be a
distinction made between the malevolent hacker and the benign hacker, as
well as the deviant hacker, the social hacker, the computer freak, and
the legit hacker. Most of the people who I've talked to who ppear to be
good hackers do not hang out on irc, bbses, or the nets at all. Alot of
people I know who don't go around bragging about things or showing off
their egos are much better hackers than the best from #Hack. Oh well, my
terminal is really slowing down, so I'm going to cut this short.. but you
guys get the idea.
Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 140 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 92 16:52:48 EST
In-Reply-To: <D746sB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The best hacker I ever knew in person had a simple alias, a simple
personality, and was very, very quiet. He stayed away from the
Underground Scene (per se) completely, because he didn't NEED to be
involved with it. The only thing I ever saw him use - as far as private
BBSes went - was the AE system he ran to exchange software with people.
But he had integrity and poise, and he avoided the whole attitude thing.
So much of the BBS scene is based upon how you write and how you present
yourself, and a LOT of people think that BBSes are a good way for them to
come out of their shell. I'm not talking hackers in particular, but BBS
users in GENERAL. Especially the younger crowd. Anyone who has ever been
in a NOTES conference on a small college VAX knows that most people who
spend their time writing a lot of posts on BBSes and message bases are
either escaping or hiding from SOMEthing; many of them are social morons.
And no, I'm not saying that the people on this board are like that or that
hackers are like that, but i am saying that a good deal of computer users
use computers as their only means for social interaction, and that is BAD.
I mean, look at MUDs and the whole tinysex thing. That's pretty damn
lame. But being GOOD at something - hacking or otherwise - means being
able to lead by EXAMPLE, and the people that do can achieve this status
are the true elite.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 141 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 92 20:59:17 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> I mean, look at MUDs and the whole tinysex thing. That's pretty damn
> lame. But being GOOD at something - hacking or otherwise - means being
> able to lead by EXAMPLE, and the people that do can achieve this status
> are the true elite.

I agree. What "hackers" should want to be are the leaders, and what
"hackers" tend to be are the sheep.

This phenomenom of "the obnoxious are the evident" is not particular to
hacking, lots of other realms revolve around a similar social structure.
With just about every "scene," there are the poseurs.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 142 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 92 21:44:30 EST
In-Reply-To: <iDB9sB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Lgas: 'lo

delafe: Forthe most part, when *I* say 'hack' and 'hacker' I'm talking
about real hard-core hacking, not just doorknobbing system, andd credit
card fraud, but to being creative, and more importantly effective, and
non-advertising. I think you know what I'm saying.

Ali: Using someone's past against their point of view, is pretty sad.
For the most part, whenever I see people bitching at each other on such a
stupidly blunt point of view, they are usually the exact type their
steroing.

Chemist: IRC/MUDs, is just pathetic.

#hack: Plain sucks. Although it does have it's purpose, provdes free
contact with people when you want to meet them, by way of the blithering
idiot who has no idea what he's talking about, which coincidentally takes
about 95% of the IRC #hack/phreak population with it.. <sigh>

tmh

(still awaiting the actual technical, yet funky discussion on #hack)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 143 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 13:48:18 EST

doug (Douglas Luce) writes:

> This phenomenom of "the obnoxious are the evident" is not particular to
> hacking, lots of other realms revolve around a similar social structure.
> With just about every "scene," there are the poseurs.

Look at the whole world for a great example of that. People with the
biggest profiles and loudest mouths, always get the attention and
spotlight no matter if they're the best or not.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 144 of 447
Subject: Blah
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 14:52:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <8qgBTB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Blah , blah, blah..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 145 of 447
Subject: Re: Blah
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 19:10:59 EST

terminus (Len Rose) writes:

>
> Blah , blah, blah..

That was simply fascinating! Thanks for sharing.

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 146 of 447
Subject: Re: Blah
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 21:08:57 EST
In-Reply-To: <1cqDTB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

So, obviously, we're all dying for a new post.

Any idea for a new 'thread'?

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 147 of 447
Subject: Book Signing
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 92 13:12:46 EST

Thursday night, the 29th, the Austin chapter of the EFF hosted a book
signing and speaking opportunity for Bruce Sterling on the UT Austin
campus. The room used for the event has a capacity of 135 and there was
standing room only...A very good turnout indeed! The attendees were a mixed
bag of university staff and faculty, students, attorneys, cops, and
testosterone fueled hacker wannabes. Bruces' talk was very entertaining
and even Larry Coutorie (law enforcement type) was laughing pretty hard
through most of it.

During the Q & A session, I asked Bruce if he thought MindVOX (which he
affectionately refers to as "Hacker Hell") was providing a useful platform
for all the denizens of cyberspace to air their opinions and, while hosing
down the opposition, also enlighten them as to why things often work the
way they do? He immediately laughed out loud for a few seconds and then
proceeded to give Pat Kroupa a glowing plug as the ultimate "80's style
hacker d00d." He also pointed out that, "Yes it's (VOX) providing a forum
for discussion, but that the usual amount of cannabalism among hackers is
still present." He then quickly added that he believes that to be the norm
and that it is simply (as he also so eloquently points out in Hacker
Crackdown) part of the way in which the power structure in cyberspace is
sorted out.

All in all a very good evening...I dished out $25.00 for an autographed
copy of the book, but it must be noted that all of the profits for the
evening were being donated to the EFF Austin chapter.

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 148 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking Life
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 14:56:52 EST

chemist (The Chemist) writes:

> delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes:
>
> > Well, it is quite obvious that there are very few REAL hackers posting in
> > this message base.
>
> No shit, especially lately when we have born again christians who used to
> steal credit cards and sell them posting what REAL hackers are about. I'd
> say there's a real communication problem.
>
> -tC
>

Well, considering that I am not a born again christian... Anyway, I was
making a remark about the inteligence of certian individuals.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 149 of 447
Subject: Re: ?
From: madpoet (John Davidson, Jr.)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 23:01:48 EST
In-Reply-To: <V639oB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

If you do know a friendly admin willing to give out a guest acct send me
e-mail... I have not been able to find 'nary a one...
--- John

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 150 of 447
Subject: Hacking for Profit?
From: forbes (Forbes Reporter)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 13:17:34 EST

Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get
into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you
earn money hacking credit card numbers, access codes or other information? Do
you know where to sell it? Then I'd like to hear from you. I'm doing
research for a magazine article. We don't need you name. But I do want
to hear your story. Please contact me. Forbes@mindvox.phantom.com.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 151 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking for Profit?
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 14:25:17 EST

forbes (Forbes Reporter) writes:

> Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get
> into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you
> earn money hacking credit card numbers, access codes or other information? Do
> you know where to sell it? Then I'd like to hear from you. I'm doing
> research for a magazine article. We don't need you name. But I do want
> to hear your story. Please contact me. Forbes@mindvox.phantom.com.

No offense Senor Forbes Reporter, but give me a break here! Is this some
form of "lameness" quiz?...I mean can you spell G-E-R-A-L-D-O?

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 152 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking for Profit?
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 15:01:17 EST

forbes (Forbes Reporter) writes:

> Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get
> into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you

Pardon me, but I just gotta say: LAMER ALERT! Who let the pimps in here!
What is this, a hacker whorehouse? Yo, forbes, catch a ride on the clue
bus and read Sterling's book.

-3j

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 153 of 447
Subject: Bend-over Alert
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 16:55:20 EST

Attention all Lamerz! Okay, we're gonna make it easy for you. I mean why mess
around with these media guys when you can do it all by yourself? Now on-line
for your archived convenience is everything you'll need to have your-bad-self
put away. It's under the directory incriminate.self.forms ...Yes, that's
right easy to fill out, do it yourself, search warrants and indictments.

Just remember on the warrants to give your correct name and address, the exact
location of your system and all of your peripherals. You may even want to
include Mom & Dad's stuff as well! The indictments, well, they're even easier.
All you'll need are the dates, times, exact offenses committed, and the net
addresses of the systems you've broken into.

After you've filled them out all you have to do is e-mail them to one of the
many on-line law enforcement types...They'll be happy to process them for you
as soon as possible! Why bother with middle-man-media folks when you can put
the noose around your own neck twice as quick.

Falconer
"Research is never done by getting on your back like a two dollar whore."

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 154 of 447
Subject: Re: Bend-over Alert
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 21:02:51 EST
In-Reply-To: <XeLeuB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Man that was >cold<

Better hope neither one of you subscribes to Forbes magazine ;)

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 155 of 447
Subject: Re: Bend-over Alert
From: obscure (Paul Leonard)
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 92 02:13:03 EST
In-Reply-To: <gJRguB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

HeHeHe. You have to admit that it was a really fucking stupid question to
ask.

paul

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 156 of 447
Subject: Hackers
From: lotus (Matthew Naparty)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 20:14:39 EST
In-Reply-To: <gwX9uB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

What are hackers?
They are overhormoned asolescents who get a great thrill out of breaking
into the cyberspace. This thrill lessens (usually) as they got older and
eventually turns into a productive activity of some sort. get
Ususally these people do have enough sense to control themselves, or are
smart enough to remain undetected or untrackable for a long period of
time. Of course there are great execeptions, like we have already seen
in the news already, these exceptions are paying the price for going to
far and basis stupidity. Hacking is basically done for fun, and is a
healthy sign of adolescent rebellion. Hackers usually end up being
"productive" computer people as they get older. Older people hack mainly
because of profit. A few years ago it was very profitable to be an
employee of the KGB, CIA, or even the FBI, when it came to hacking.
Today, it's hard to say that the KGB hires anyone, as ofr the FBI and
CIA, well, there is no enemy to steal secrets from anymore.
One tidbit, in the Gulf War, the american sercet something or other
people managed to cripple Iraq's radar's and anything computerish
connectd to them through a virus which was implanted in a chip. The chip
was connected to a printer, which somehow landed in the radar
installation thingie somewhwere in their command center. Geez, I wonder
how the stealth bombers got through the radar defenses sooo easily. I
guess this was one PRODUCTIVE hacking effort.
mudsling your responses at the author....................
l8r

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 157 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 02:05:10 EST
In-Reply-To: <5a6oVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

lotus (Matthew Naparty) writes:

> One tidbit, in the Gulf War, the american sercet something or other
> people managed to cripple Iraq's radar's and anything computerish
> connectd to them through a virus which was implanted in a chip. The chip
> was connected to a printer, which somehow landed in the radar
> installation thingie somewhwere in their command center. Geez, I wonder
> how the stealth bombers got through the radar defenses sooo easily. I
> guess this was one PRODUCTIVE hacking effort.

OK, where's the source? I've yet to hear this story, and I read the
media pretty closely during Operation Desert Bloodbath (doesn't mean its not
true, maybe you have inside contacts in the CIA, I don't know). If its
true, I'd like to know who did it. (I've yet to hear of a virus going from
a printer to a puter, but 'hey, you never know'.)

- Simon
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 158 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: obscure (Paul Leonard)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 06:06:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <BJLPVB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Simon: I read something about that being a rumor in Time Magazine a short
time after the war. I don't know if it exists, but it WAS rumored...
Personally, I'd like to know how they pulled it off.

oi

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 159 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: siva (The Destroyer)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 12:22:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <2owPVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

They didn't pull it off. It was total bullshit.
You'll occasionally hear about "viruses" in printers and modem NRAM, but
the vast majority of thesre are totally bullshit. Every one of these
occurances that I have been able to verify have been either
1) something entirely unrelated, or
2) yeah, something in the software actualy did write junk to the NRAM.
If there's a mechanism for NRAM settings or softfont technology to write
out a virus, "i'm all ears!"
To tel the truth, with the complexity of true type and postscript
increasing, and with the ability to call DLL's from within some software,
I think it's theoretical7y possible to do, but i think I'll will continue
in my tradition of letting other people get all the glory.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 160 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 13:57:38 EST

siva (The Destroyer) writes:

> To tel the truth, with the complexity of true type and postscript
> increasing, and with the ability to call DLL's from within some software,
> I think it's theoretical7y possible to do, but i think I'll will continue
> in my tradition of letting other people get all the glory.

..imagine, all those ftp sites with TrueType hiding shitloads of
viruses... rather sad and funny at the same time, maybe Bitstream
got pissed off and planted some out tthere..

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez, MS-DOS Enthusiast !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@infoserv.com carlos@dorsai.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@phantom.com FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 161 of 447
Subject: Printer Virus
From: king (Randy King)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 14:30:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <RiiqVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

FYI, my understanding of the Iraqi printer virus story is that there was
an April 1 article concerning this thing that went out over the newswire
or something and it got picked up by a number of news agencies. As you
will note if you look at your calendars, April 1 is also known as April
Fool's Day...

TK

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 162 of 447
Subject: Re: Printer Virus
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 00:05:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <R2JqVB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, concerning _actual_ printer related viruses, this is loosly related...

The only documented story I've ever heard is that there was a Mac virus
(or was it a trojan horse "SuperPS" type?) that would set the password on
typesetters to a random string. [Note: some very-high-end typesetters have
a password function, for what, I don't know.] So someone would take their
file into a service bureau, it would print, and then the next print job
would fail. The printer EPROMs had to be removed and zapped to get it
going again...

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 163 of 447
Subject: Re: Printer Virus
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:03:22 EST

simonm (Simon Moon) writes:
> The only documented story I've ever heard is that there was a Mac virus
> (or was it a trojan horse "SuperPS" type?) that would set the password on
> typesetters to a random string. [Note: some very-high-end typesetters have
> a password function, for what, I don't know.] So someone would take their
> file into a service bureau, it would print, and then the next print job
> would fail. The printer EPROMs had to be removed and zapped to get it
> going again...

Even Apple LaserWriters have passwords. Since noone ever bothers to set
the passwords on their laserwriter, a virus could throw postscript code
into laserprep or random postscripted files. Change the password, then
change the printer name to something unreachable. Or down the thing
permanently. Then you're screwed. (Although I believe the repasswording
scheme is probably simpler than rezapping the EEPROM that holds the
password; but I could be wrong).

I'll bet this is an urban myth, there's nothing "well known" that does this.
dug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 164 of 447
Subject: Re: Printer Virus
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 05:48:18 EST
In-Reply-To: <BgguVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

doug (Douglas Luce) writes:

> [Regarding printer viruses] I'll bet this is an urban myth, there's
> nothing "well known" that does this.

No, but there _were_ a few outbreaks... I read an article by some guy
whose printer froze up, and how he fixxed it, only to have it taken down
again... The second time, he got a copy of the virus responsible... I
could probably find the documentation around if someone really wanted it.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 165 of 447
Subject: Crackdown progress?
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:23:50 EST

I've not seen any news related to the various hacker trials lately....
How are they going? What's up with Steve Jackson Games, did they ever get
their stuff back? How's Phiber doing? Has it been a slow month, am I
really out of the news loop, or is the "Criminal Justice" system in the US
just painfully slow? Enquiring minds want to know.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 166 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 17:54:00 EST

simonm (Simon Moon) writes:

> I've not seen any news related to the various hacker trials lately....
> How are they going? What's up with Steve Jackson Games, did they ever get
> their stuff back? How's Phiber doing? Has it been a slow month, am I
> really out of the news loop, or is the "Criminal Justice" system in the US
> just painfully slow? Enquiring minds want to know.

Read the rest of the system, both of those were talked about within the
last week dude! Rita said SJG is still in 'discovery' and going to stay
there a little longer or just exiting that stage, so the whole thing can
finally get going.

From the dudes in MOD everyone has now plead except for abene, stira and
one other guy (phiber, scorpion and elias who I think is Acid Phreak but I
don't remember). What this usually means according to people I've asked,
is that the MOD guys who recently copped a plea have agreed to testify
against Abene and Stira. From what has been written about it and from the
way its talked about by legal people and security people like Donn Parker,
the government will trade everyone in MOD to nail Abene and make sure he
does some jail time this time around (#2 for him within the last 2 years).

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 167 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: sn (SN/DPAK)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 18:25:22 EST
In-Reply-To: <Ps3ZVB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

It's bad when the government starts to have personal vendettas.
It cheapens the system of justice when they start to go more for the
person than for the ALLEGED crime. And that's what it is, you know...
A Vendetta.

-/- Supernigger -/- DPAK -/-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 168 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 14:54:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <Z94ZVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hte problem here is that its not necesarily a real crime that they are using
cuz they have a personal grudge against this type of computer crime
so they have two grudges here and its strectching the
law pretty thin as far as i can tell
but hell dragging someone into court and getting
everyone he knows and has wroked with to turn against him
isnt exactly a nice sentence either

but i dont think we need to be covering how messed up our govt is
esop the justic system

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 169 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: lotus (Matthew Naparty)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 20:23:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <BJLPVB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

SIMON:
The story about the printer virus was presented on NIGHTLINE, on the ABC
network. I have only herad this story once, mabye the govt dosen't like
things like this getting out or somethin. I think the show aired a week
or so after the war ended, u can call up ABC and ask them about it.
l8r.................
Lotus

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 170 of 447
Subject: Re: Hackers
From: lotus (Matthew Naparty)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 20:28:54 EST
In-Reply-To: <D4DqVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

SIVA:
They could have pulled it off, it was *said* that it was a printer, but
it could have been any electronic component. They could have altered the
device and implanted a chip with the code, which would cause some type of
delay, error, or some other unwanted problem. It may be a rumor, but I
think it's possible, ABC reported it so i guess it's valid. (but who the
hell knows) (:
Lotus.........

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 171 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: lotus (Matthew Naparty)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 20:33:51 EST
In-Reply-To: <Fe2ZVB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I think they're all over... at least the ones i heard about.
If u like hacker stuff, pick up the book:
CYBERPUNK
outlawas and hackers on the computer frontier
by Katie Hafner & John Markoff
simon & schuster

I think it was a great view of hacker's lives and their eminent downfall.
One of the hackers presented is Robert Morris who killed the internet or
one of the other related networks. Remember him? (:
Lotus............

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 172 of 447
Subject: Article in Texas Monthly
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 01:31:57 EST

(cross-posted from Convergence)

I urge you all to run down to the local newstand and pick up the Jan.93
issue of Texas Monthly magazine. There is a lengthy article in it titled
_The Clash of the Cyberpunks_ by Gary Cartwright. The entire piece focuses
on the feud between Mark Abene (Phiber Optik) and Chris Goggans (Erik
Bloodaxe). I cannot comment on its accuracy, but it is a superb read and
seems to be fundamentally unbiased in its commentary.

Included with the text is a quarter-page portrait of Mark Abene, and a
full-page, color toned professional portrait of Chris Goggans. The story
is literate, well organized, very detailed, and very long. Cartwright did
a review of _The Hacker Crackdown_ last month and had less than a page.
This story covers 6 to 7 pages of text in fairly fine print.

I am genuinely anxious to hear comments from the folks actually involved in
this episode...Particularly in reference to the article's accuracy. A
great deal of the history of LOD and MOD is covered from the perspectives
of both groups. After the Geraldo Show and the crap that Forbes published
under the guise of journalism, this article provided a much needed breath
of fresh air.

Read it soon!

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 173 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 03:21:00 EST

lotus (Matthew Naparty) writes:

> I think it was a great view of hacker's lives and their eminent downfall.
> One of the hackers presented is Robert Morris who killed the internet or
> one of the other related networks. Remember him? (:
> Lotus............

Lotus you're an idiot. Don't take that the wrong way but you know 0 about
hacking that you haven't read from the media magazines and seen on TV.
Everything you say is like lip-synching NITELINE or something.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 174 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 08:57:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <PPN3VB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

chemist (The Chemist) writes:

> From the dudes in MOD everyone has now plead except for abene, stira and
> one other guy (phiber, scorpion and elias who I think is Acid Phreak but I
> don't remember). What this usually means according to people I've asked,
> is that the MOD guys who recently copped a plea have agreed to testify
> against Abene and Stira. From what has been written about it and from the
> way its talked about by legal people and security people like Donn Parker,
> the government will trade everyone in MOD to nail Abene and make sure he
> does some jail time this time around (#2 for him within the last 2 years).

What seems really crazy anout this is that (correct me if I'm wrong) the
evidence against the other MODers was much stronger than against Phiber.
So the Feds are throwing away a bunch of cases they could almost
definitely have won in order to get the guy who has the highest media
profile. While it might make sense from their poing of view (ie "everyone
will hear about it and it'll scare some potential hackers off") it sure
doesn't sound like pursuit of _justice_ to me. Oh, well, no big surprise...

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 175 of 447
Subject: alibaba
From: rebelion (Chris Jones)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 14:23:40 EST
In-Reply-To: <7a43VB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

your 100% correct, for lotus to say Cyberpunk was a good outlook
on hackers is pathetic. Cyberpunk was incredibly slanted against
hackers. It was a fun book to read, but not good towards hackers
at all.

.rl

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 176 of 447
Subject: Re: alibaba
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 18:50:46 EST
In-Reply-To: <6Di4VB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I think it was just slanted towards pofit and fitting CP SF fodder
into a reality mold....

I liked the part about Pengo, but he has some prob's with the book, I
guess....He's still on the net....

As far as that "eminent downfall" comment by lotus:
my ass....

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 177 of 447
Subject: Re: alibaba
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 05:28:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <BRu4VB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Ali that was harsh but true, Lotus, pull your head out and make comments
based on something else besides watching the TV.

From what I've gathered talking to people who know abene, some of them who
don't like him, ok mostof them who don't like him. "Mark has never been
arrested for anything he did, then again he has never been charged with
all the things he did do that could get him in a lot of trouble" Works
both ways, the general attitude that I got was that Abene has done a lot
of shit that could easily land him in jail, what they happened toget him
for is almost besides the point. The point I think was that he's a pain in
the ass and annoys all the wrong people, I think the quote that comes up
most in IRC is erikb's: "Mark just doesn't play well with the other children"

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 178 of 447
Subject: Re: alibaba
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 13:02:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <Fao5VB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I don't give a tinker's dink if someone doesn't want to play well with the
other children. Free to do so.

'Course, I don't know I'd hire someone like that to be a 'team player'.

Maybe an outside consultant, though.

Phiber once compared himself to Batman: "Either you like me/him, or or you
don't." [paraphrased, don't have the transcript].
While a bit egoistic, it seems true enough. Many people seem polarized
about Abene. I like him for good rhetoric and argument.

Then again, maybe I'll meet him FTF one day and decide his a pansy-ass
kid. Who can say?

While I'm not happy that he's helped to stir the hornet's nest labeled
'THE MEDIA", it was bound to happen. So 99% of journalists have their
collective heads up their collective butts. People like Sterling are
trying to rectum-fy the situation. (Sorry, couldn't resist the pun,
forgive me!).

Our concern should be on de-stigmatizing hacking.

... or am I just rambling incoherently ... ???

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 179 of 447
Subject: KILL ME WHO DON'T U!
From: lotus (Matthew Naparty)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 16:54:17 EST
In-Reply-To: <La05VB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Gosh, u people r real vicious on here. U love *CRITICIZM* but I like it,
it's not dead and all the mudslinging is interesting. I have not been in
what u define as "hacker culture" for long, heck maby I have not been in
it at all, but I think that by the time u get to 30 or so years old it's
time to retire and get on with real stuff (?) ! Pirate boards are pretty
lame - that's what I mostly saw, maby I can get a taste of real hacking
on here? SLING THE MUD!! (:
here refers to the internet, telnet and all that stuff, don't get me
wrong..........
oh by the way, did u see The New Hackers Dictionary?

(__)
oo )
|_/\

Lotus..............
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 180 of 447
Subject: Re: KILL ME WHO DON'T U!
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 02:30:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <71J6VB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

o o o>
/|\ <|\ /|/
/ \ / > >

The first part of "hacking" is to prepare the body for the odessy of the
mind . From there it is all easy.

CritiC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 181 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: sleuth (Reuben Radding)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 11:17:17 EST

alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:

> lotus (Matthew Naparty) writes:
>
> > I think it was a great view of hacker's lives and their eminent downfall.
> > One of the hackers presented is Robert Morris who killed the internet or
> > one of the other related networks. Remember him? (:
> > Lotus............
>
> Lotus you're an idiot. Don't take that the wrong way but you know 0 about
> hacking that you haven't read from the media magazines and seen on TV.
> Everything you say is like lip-synching NITELINE or something.
>

Hmmmmm. . . if someone killed the Internet then how am I getting all this
net news? Is it magic? YOU make the call.

===============================================================
| Reuben Radding sleuth@mindvox.phantom.com |
| po box 1270 NYC 10276 rdr@panix.com |
===============================================================

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 182 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: lotus (Matthew Naparty)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 22:34:34 EST
In-Reply-To: <i4y7VB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Alibaba:
Well yeah, Robert Morris didn't kill the Internet. He sorta locked it up
OK, then it was fixed..................
I made the call!
l8r
Lotus.........

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 183 of 447
Subject: CellularModem
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 17:06:48 EST
In-Reply-To: <B5skwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Question:

How useful is a laptap computer w/ modem w/ cellular connection?
Is this a decent way to m0dem? I've never used a cellular phone, so
I don't know anything about the quality of the line and how happy
it would be to interface w/ a modem.

dex.research("on")

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 184 of 447
Cc: alexz@well.sf.ca.us
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: alex (Alex Zelchenko)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 21:31:49 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> Question:
>
> How useful is a laptap computer w/ modem w/ cellular connection?
> Is this a decent way to m0dem? I've never used a cellular phone, so
> I don't know anything about the quality of the line and how happy
> it would be to interface w/ a modem.
>
> dex.research("on")

What would be the purpose in modeming via cellular?
When you receive your first bill after one month of use you will
dial 611 (on cellular) and scream for cancellation of your account.
If you are locked into a minimum duration of contract...you will
probably still owe them tons of money.
OTOH, if you are a millionaire I can think of all kinds of things
you can do -- give it all to phantom.com to expand services, including
free access for everybody via 800 lines from anywhere in CyberUniverse.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 185 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: wheez (Hal Weiner)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 10:48:04 EST
In-Reply-To: <qJFowB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I second the above. cellular service costs are astronomical. Use only in
an absolute emergency. just connect up to any phone and login to MindVox!
carry a short(10ft) length of modular hookup cable with your laptop. I am
waiting for the new modem creditcards later this year as opposed to a
permanent on board modem. If it has room for that the laptop will
probably have room for something even better than a faxmodem. (like...?)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 186 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 15:29:16 EST
In-Reply-To: <TegPwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, then again, if you're travelling, and need to check e-mail (say,
from your boss or re:the conference you're going to (includes data)), a
5-10 minute call isn't too bad.

But I couldn't see doing it often. Too expensive (for now) ...

aiting to afford a PowerBook 180 to hook to his Motorola Flip,

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 187 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 16:44:15 EST
In-Reply-To: <HFTPwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

While I agree that m0deming a la cellular phone would be costly, it
is not the original question I asked. Is is feasible? I mean,
is the quality of the connection clean enough to keep your modem happy?

With a lot of folks cloning the MIN and ESN codes for cellular phones --
I'd think it'd be fairly easy to make the cost of cellular calls
negligible -- no?

I have a picture of a laptap with a 9600 baud modem and a cellular
connection. This could be a fairly kickin' setup.

dex.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 188 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 00:43:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <gwwPwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

MIN and ESN codes are *much* harder to *safely* use for 'unauthorized'
calls, so let's skip that idea (for now).

MNP-10 protocol was written specifically for cellular use (BTW, my Supra
14.4 fax/modem has MNP-10, and it's not too uncommon).

So, yeah, it's do-able. For a price ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 189 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 00:59:24 EST
In-Reply-To: <63iqwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Why are MIN and ESN codes harder to "safely" use? -- the metaphor I've
been using in that they're similar to ATM cards... if you have a card and
the number... *BINGO* you're in business.

Is this true?

dex-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 190 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 12:55:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <PTJqwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Abusing any single ESN/MIN pair for any significant period of time, or
doing so from the same location will get you in big trouble. To be safe,
move around and switch ESN/MIN pairs as often as possible, preferably use
a new one for each new call.

There is something called the Cache Box which will allow you to accomplish
this fairly easily. Basically, what it does, is snatch ESN/MIN pairs
right off the air using an automated scanner / FSK decoder, and stores
them in memory. After each call is finished, the Cache Box replaces the
the ESN/MIN pair in the cellular phone (into a SRAM chip which replaces the
(E)PROM) with a fresh one from it's cache. This allows you to spread out
your damage among thousands of accounts, where a single call (especially a
local call to a Telenet/Tymnet/Internet POP) will never even be noticed.
The chances of getting caught using the Cache Box are basically nil, since
you're not abusing a particular ESN/MIN pair more than once. And you never
have to worry about manually obtaining ESN/MIN pairs since the box does it
for you. I believe the going street price for a device such is this is
somewhere in the range of $50,000. Usually only mafia types and drug
dealers can afford to buy them. On the other hand, they are not that hard
to build for anyone with knowledge of scanners, FSK decoder chips, and
cellular phone programming/eprom-blasting.

I would think that a mafioso's idea of heaven is a cellular phone with a
cache box and full end-to-end digital voice encryption using Enhanced
DES, LOKI, IDEA or Lucifer encryption. I guess it must make the feds shit in
their pants when they think of what's in store for them in the next 5-10
years. BTW, the Columbian drug trafficer's already use quite
sophisticated encryption & e-mail to administer their world wide drug
networks. I heard they might even be using PGP, heh heh. Life is funny...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 191 of 447
Subject: Perot BUSTED! for hacking Equifax
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 13:22:35 EST
In-Reply-To: <mZgRwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Just heard on CNN.. It seems that H. Ross Perot and his henchmen used
stolen passwords to check the credit records of several of his campaign
volunteer leaders. The FBI is investigating.

I guess the H in H. Ross Perot stands for "hacker".

No doubt he'll buy his way out of jail/conviction, where as certain
persons who _allegedly_ sold Equifax/TRW codes might be going to jail for
a long time. That's the Amerikan justice system, if you have money then
you can buy your way out of anything, including prison. I hope they put
Perot in the electric chair, and they wouldn't even have to shave his head
since he's bald enough already.. I hope that paranoid weasel gets put away
for a long time... Die you weasel!! Die!!! ...oops.. sorry, got carried
away a little. Whatever, I think it's funny that Perot gets busted for
hacking..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 192 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 14:32:27 EST
In-Reply-To: <c9HRwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Okay, I'll admit, Thug's on the right track.

Some big companies check records and such ... basically, changing after
every call/every cell seems to do it.
(I had an old roomie of mine start to show me how to change the ID# ... he
explained the L.A. Cellular wouldn't charge on the first call ...
something about roam and other service companies ... not sure all the
details .... but it is simple (using the PROG key !!) ... he advised that
if I changed it every call, I could effectively make free calls all the
time ... and he's a damn LA Cellular Tech!!)

If I drum up more details (more tech-like), who knows, maybe it's time for
a 2600 article ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 193 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 17:44:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <sgLRwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, there is also the fact that any invalid ESN/MIN pair that
has never been tried in that cellular area before will be assumed to be a
"roaming" (i.e., not in the billing area of the owner) call and it will
go through without verification. After I think three calls (it depends
on the area) with the same ESN/MIN that is roaming, it will be put on a
"blacklist". There are some mods to cell phones that simply try random
ESN/MINs every call. It usually works. Bootleg has an article about it
in the next 2600, I believe.

Michael | "I tell you one must still have
(inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com) | chaos in one to give birth to
| a dancing star!" -Nietzsche

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 194 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 23:23:57 EST
In-Reply-To: <kcuRwB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The "roaming" trick works because real-time ESN/MIN verification is not yet
in place among the nations cell carriers. It's hard for them to work out
such agreements since some of them are in competition with one another.
Basically, let's say I live in California and I fly into NYC and make a
call from my cell phone, the first call will go through no matter what,
like the previous posts describe. It will take the NYC carrier somewhere
in the range of 10-15 minutes to verify the ESN/MIN pair with the cellular
company in California. They don't want people to wait 10-15 minutes
to place their call, so they let the first call through, and verify the
code pair later.

It kind of reminds me of how old/dead AT&T calling card codes used to work
for several months after dying through various smaller equal access carriers
(ITI,Integratel,Telesphere,etc..). Of course the bigger companies like
NYNEX,SW BELL,BELL ATLANTIC, PACBELL always had real-time access to AT&T's
calling card verification database, where as the smaller companies mentioned
above updated their databases via magnetic tapes quarterly from third-party
clearing houses.

The "roaming" trick WILL stop working soon. All the cell carriers have
basically agreed to have a centralized real-time ESN/MIN verification
computer set up and working by mid 1993. Right now, it's basically a
mess of many wierd roaming agreements among the dozens of cell companies and
several technical standards for inter-company ESN/MIN verification, most
of which is not in real-time.

The Cache Box is the way to go if you want long term free access to the
cell network which can never be taken away, unless they suddenly decide
to open up and modify about 25 million cell phones out there and every
single cell switch in existance. This will never happen. The best they
can hope for is to build better security into the new digital (TDMA & CDMA)
cellular standard and then paying everyone in the country to
trade-in/trade-up their cellular phone so that they could eliminate the
current cellular system. BTW, channel 83 UHF (on pre-1986 TV sets with more
than 69 channels) is always good to listen to if you're in the Wall Street
area. I get excellent stock tips and insider info this way.. Better than
reading WSJ I think..

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 195 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 03:41:40 EST
In-Reply-To: <m30RwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Say, Inhuman, wasn't there a phreak (&tc.) 'publication' called
BOOTLEG[GER] ??

... wishing he were just another two steps ahead ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 196 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: surfer (Hewlett Cray)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 12:02:49 EST

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> Say, Inhuman, wasn't there a phreak (&tc.) 'publication' called
> BOOTLEG[GER] ??

Bootleg put out Bootlegger in the early-mid 80's. There was also
Countlegger, The Hacker Magazine and one or two other Apple 5.25" disk
format mags out there for a few years. To my recollection a few of the
LOD members on here including Digital, Lex, Erikb and some others, all had
material in one or more of them, without their permission, which was one
of the things that inspired the formation of LOD Tech Journals, in the
first place (people ripping off material that was written by others and
then selling it. Something Bootleg is famous for and apparently about to
do again with his CD-ROM).

Bootleg had a very shaky rep for a long time, he was originally some biker
dude who would be in his late 40's or early 50's by now, who was one of
the petty-criminal profiteering class.

Surf's Up |echosurfer::1:2:surfer:/:/bin/sh\>\>/etc/passwd

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 197 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 13:29:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <e89swB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, is it 'fair' to 'rip-off' (i.e.: copy) other's work ... if it's
information, doesn't it "want to be free" ... or is it only a faux pas if
someone takes 'credit' for another's work ... ?

[Just trying to have a conversation match the name of the forum ... ]

(Good too see some people have knowledge that stretches further back than
mine!)

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 198 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 14:19:07 EST
In-Reply-To: <X8cTwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

God, we had a two month long discussion on my board about whether
Bootleg was doing a good or a selfish deed with his latest CD-ROM project
(he was involved in the discussion). I guess it's open to debate still.
Personally, I am of the mind "the more information dissemination, the
better". And it'd be nice to have all those P/H text files on one little
disc than filling up my HD. I don't think he's going to make enough
money off of it to qualify for "raping the scene". But I guess it
remains to be seen...

Michael | "I tell you one must still have
(inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com) | chaos in one to give birth to
| a dancing star!" -Nietzsche

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 199 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 14:52:17 EST

inhuman (Inhuman) writes:

> God, we had a two month long discussion on my board about whether
> Bootleg was doing a good or a selfish deed with his latest CD-ROM project
> (he was involved in the discussion). I guess it's open to debate still.
> Personally, I am of the mind "the more information dissemination, the
> better". And it'd be nice to have all those P/H text files on one little
> disc than filling up my HD. I don't think he's going to make enough
> money off of it to qualify for "raping the scene". But I guess it
> remains to be seen...

I wish the best of luck to Bootleg. I just hope he prices his CD in the
range where it is affordable to everyone; a good price would be something
like $19.95, $29.95, or $39.95, or $49.95 at the maximum. If he ends up
charging anything above $49.95 for it, then he would be perceived as
raping the scene.

I often fantasize of what it would be like to see a CD such as that being
advertised in the back of PC Magazine or Byte. It would mean that the
average public could get instant and cheap access to all of
Phrack,ATI,LOD/TJ,Syndicate Reports, CUD, DFP, and the dozen or so other
electronic mag archives. I think it would make people like John Dvorak,
Jim Seymour, Jerry Pournelle, etc.. shit in their pants when they see the
ad and review the CD. I think Jack Rickard would have a heart attack once
he realized that 12 and 13 year old kids could get instant and cheap
access to the accumulated wealth of knowledge of the computer underground,
especially if Bootleg puts a heaping dose of anarchy files on the CD as well.

One thing I really hope for is that the CD-ROM has a good text/search
engine and an extensive index. The other thing I want is for it to be
ISO-9660 and not use any proprietary formats to store the text. Thus it
would be possible to put up his CD-ROM disk on a BBS, just like many
sysops put up PC-SIG or Nightowl or whatever..

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 200 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 20:20:03 EST
In-Reply-To: <u2gTwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

How about $99.95? That's what he is purposing I believe. Of course,
what he is doing is selling it to certain "distributors" and allowing
them to price it themselves. He offered to allow me to be a distributor,
and I fully intend to take him up on that offer. I fhe does, regardless
of what price he charges me, I will pass them on for cost.. which I
assume will be closer to $29.95-$49.95.

Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 201 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: obscure (Paul Leonard)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 20:20:21 EST
In-Reply-To: <u2gTwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

And if he put on even half of the cDc files he'd probably have some legal
problems if the kiddies got hold of it. I think it'd be GREAT! 600 megs
of the archives of our childhood.

paul

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 202 of 447
Subject: Bootleg on CD rom
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 23:05:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <m9VTwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

From what I remember of those wars way back then which isn't much,
everyone was always angry with Bootleg because he was a lowlife. It's not
that information "wants to be free" which is a great attitude to take if
its not your information, but its taking information that is free in the
first place and doesn't belong to you, wasn't written by you and then
selling it to people at outrageous prices. Which is exactly what Bootleg
always did with the Bootlegger magazine that managed to make so many
people mad. Text files were always passed around for free, when someone
takes something that is free and starts charging a price that is obviously
way over the cost needed to duplicate the materials, pay for postage and
make a little money on the side, then what you have is a thief who is
ripping people off, which is what Bootleg always was.

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 203 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 23:25:55 EST

obscure (Paul Leonard) writes:

> And if he put on even half of the cDc files he'd probably have some legal
> problems if the kiddies got hold of it. I think it'd be GREAT! 600 megs
> of the archives of our childhood.

Yeah, I wonder if the parents of a 13 year old who lights up a pound of
thermite and melts a giant hole through three floors of a family house
would sue Bootleg. Hmm, maybe not..

Deadboy: I agree that Bootleg should not rip people off by charging more
than $49.95 retail. After all, CD-ROMS cost only $3/disk when duplicated
at 1000 piece quantities, he can charge $29.95 and still make 1000% profit
and not rip anyone off. However, just because he may be scum of the earth
in your eyes, does not give you the right to criticize him for making a
living. I mean MindVox charges for access, and yet 95% of the files in the
archives were not written/created by the P.A.T. crew. Everyone has the
right to make money if they are providing a value added service like
putting up an online system or putting out a CD-ROM that is indexed and
organized so that people w/o net access can read the p/h history. The only
time I criticize people who try to earn money is when they are doing it in
a manner that is either dishonest or exploits the phreak/hack community. I
DO think $99.95 is too much, but I don't know how much effort Bootleg has
put into his work, maybe he's been indexing and re-formatting these files
by hand for the past 2 years and has created a truly valuable product. If
on the other hand he has merely ftp'd down some files, stored them on tape
and sent the tape off to a CD-ROM mastering plant, then he has no right
charging $99.95 for the product. The one thing I can say for sure is that
Bootleg is not hurting the phreak/hack community, only making it thrive
more by giving the masses to read our story from our philes, and not
getting their info from FILTHY ROTTING SCUM RAT BASTARDS like the Forbes
writers. I wish Bootleg the best of luck, and unless he proves to me
otherwise, I am considering him an honest and decent businessman. His
history may be shaky from people who talk about him, but how do I know
they are not merely slandering him because he wrote in uppercase and 40
columns and that pissed people off too much?

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 204 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 01:40:04 EST
In-Reply-To: <wT5TwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Explain this comment:

"The one thing I can say for sure is that
Bootleg is not hurting the phreak/hack community, only making it thrive
more by giving the masses to read our story from our philes, and not
getting their info from FILTHY ROTTING SCUM RAT BASTARDS like the Forbes
writers. "

Len

Len Rose
len@netsys.com
"So mote it be..."

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 205 of 447
Subject: Re: CellularModem
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 02:46:57 EST
In-Reply-To: <H2auwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

(just when I feared I was losing my touch at starting a good talk ...
(after social:politics slowed down))

Personally, I'd like to see it low cost -- I think we all support
open-access to data, even (in some cases) "proprietary data" (but that's
another argument, perhaps)
And let's face it, a high-cost nostalgia trip (for some)(others: a
wonderous journey through the history of some underground) isn't *it*.

I wouldn't mind a higher price *IF* the profits went to a free systems
where users could d/l stuff (much like EFF with ftp.eff.org)(which is
where I went recently and found old BOOTLEGGER issues)(my opinion of their
data is: copiously copied (perhaps contemptuously)).

Sharing information, with credit where it's due, seems ideal.
Well, it's the end of my shift here at work (network/computer
operator)(easy way to get root access!!)
I'm tired, hungry, and sleepy. Type to ya later ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 206 of 447
Subject: Bootleg's CD
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 04:38:07 EST
In-Reply-To: <y5DuwB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

If people think its a ripoff, they won't buy it. If its overpriced,
then sell it for less. Its not like BL has a chance of actually
copyrighting any of the material on this vapor-CD.

Or does he?

-redeye

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 207 of 447
Subject: Re: Bootleg's CD
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 09:42:13 EST

redeye (Sigmund Obispo) writes:

> If people think its a ripoff, they won't buy it. If its overpriced,
> then sell it for less. Its not like BL has a chance of actually
> copyrighting any of the material on this vapor-CD.

That's right, market forces will decide. After all, if Bootleg fucks it
up, the material is assumed to be P.D. (no one has ever claimed otherwise)
and someone else can easily make a competing phreak/hack CD-ROM with
basically the same material, better formatting and indexing, and a lower
price. The one sticky point is that the material is usually "copyrighted"
by the creators, such as Phrack being copyrighted by Phrack Inc. (a
non-existant corporation). Even so, it is copyrighted and that will stand
up in court. It might be a good way for KL to make some money and pay his
legal debts at the same time, by requesting that people who SELL issues of
Phrack in any way (this would exclude eff.org, but may include Bootleg and
perhaps pay-for-use systems like MindVox, Compuserve, Exec-PC, and others
which charge for access to read Phrack) to pay him and TK royalties or
else be sued for copyright infringement. Perhaps Craig should start
calling 1-800-LAWYERS right now.. I may be mistaken in that Compuserve has
Phrack, but they do stock CUD and other files. I know Exec-PC has Phrack
online and does charge for access and is a for-profit 300 line system. I
would assume that Emmanuel Goldstien would do something similar if someone
scanned in all the issues of 2600 and put them up online without his
permission and without paying him a single red cent. Why should 2600 have
more copyright protection because it's hardcopy and Phrack have no
copyright protection because it's software (electronic text)? Bootleg and
others who wish to make a profit off the scene better think about these
questions carefully or they may stumble into a rat's nest of legal liability.
It's not the same as people who re-sell "shareware" on disks because
shareware is clearly marked in a way that allows such activity within
limits. None of these text files are marked in this "shareware" manner,
and may of the text philes are copyrighted, even if they are under crazy
names like Swamp Ratte. Speaking of which, the cDc files are also
copyrighted. Welcome to the real world d00dz..

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 208 of 447
Subject: Re: Perot BUSTED! for hacking Equifax
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 13:59:49 EST

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> since he's bald enough already.. I hope that paranoid weasel gets put away
> for a long time... Die you weasel!! Die!!! ...oops.. sorry, got carried
> away a little. Whatever, I think it's funny that Perot gets busted for
> hacking..
>
I can just see it.. Perot's big ears flapping like Dumbo's as the juice
goes through his skull..... PHPTTH!

(sick mode off)

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez, MS-DOS Enthusiast !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@infoserv.com carlos@dorsai.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@phantom.com FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 209 of 447
Subject: Simple Tracing
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 16:11:20 EST

Ok. Time for another question.

What is the simplist way to track down where a telephone number is
located? I realize that through the use of the Area Code and Prefix
you can narrow down the general area with a little help of your
local phone book, but WHAT is the next step?

-dex

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 210 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 16:43:25 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> What is the simplist way to track down where a telephone number is
> located? I realize that through the use of the Area Code and Prefix
> you can narrow down the general area with a little help of your
> local phone book, but WHAT is the next step?

a) Go to the library and look up the phone number in a reverse directory.
It's basically a phone book in reverse: all the numbers are listed in
order, with names and addresses next to them.

b) Use Phone*File on CompuServe. Punch in the number, it'll spit out the
owner.

c) Hack it out, d00d.

--Aaron

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 211 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 17:15:12 EST

kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:

> dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:
>
> > What is the simplist way to track down where a telephone number is
> > located? I realize that through the use of the Area Code and Prefix
> > you can narrow down the general area with a little help of your
> > local phone book, but WHAT is the next step?
>
> a) Go to the library and look up the phone number in a reverse directory.
> It's basically a phone book in reverse: all the numbers are listed in
> order, with names and addresses next to them.

Ditto, remember to ask for the "Cole's Address Telephone Directory". There
are other companies as well, besides for Cole's. However, the directory
will not, obviously let you track down unlisted numbers.

> b) Use Phone*File on CompuServe. Punch in the number, it'll spit out the
> owner.

Phone*File pretty much sucks, it is out of date by about two years, and
only about 50% accurate. Phone*File is assembled from mailing list
information, not White Page directories, basically very lame.

> c) Hack it out d00d.

Agreed, but not needed since most info can be social engineered out of the
local business office. Even unpublished numbers, if you're good enough.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 212 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 18:19:36 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> Ok. Time for another question.
>
> What is the simplist way to track down where a telephone number is
> located? I realize that through the use of the Area Code and Prefix
> you can narrow down the general area with a little help of your
> local phone book, but WHAT is the next step?

Welp, there shoud be a book called POLK'S at your local library. It's a
list of everyone by phone number, as long they're not unlisted numbers.
COLT'S is another one. Most of the people who use it are like business
mailing list people.. It'll say a name, an address, some other info,
methinks. ALso lists by address in another section.. ame, too.
(err name)

|:- Wanna fight about it?! (grin) -:|
|:- nihilis@phantom.com -:|
|:- Joel Boutros -:|

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 213 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 19:32:33 EST
In-Reply-To: <DBLVwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I think the _simplest_ way is to call and ask. Sorry, couldn't resist.

-red

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 214 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 93 20:13:49 EST

Well first let me say that the topic for this thread is completely wrong
in the first place. _Tracing_ is something completely different from what
we are discussing. What we are discussing is usually refered to as
"backing out a number" in the private investigator profession.

redeye (Sigmund Obispo) writes:

> I think the _simplest_ way is to call and ask. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Well yes, that would work for the majority of the public. If I call up
let's say xxx-yyyy and ask "Excuse me, I'm wondering if I reached the
correct number, who am I speaking to please?", most non-paranoid Joe
Average types will give you their first and last name, then it's merely a
step away to look them up via the White Pages and directory assistance and
get their address and the rest of their info if need be.

However, this WILL NOT WORK if you are dealing with either the number to a
computer, fax machine, or most hacker/phreak types who are extremely
paranoid and suspicious.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 215 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 12:02:33 EST

alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:
> Lotus you're an idiot. Don't take that the wrong way but you know 0 about
> hacking that you haven't read from the media magazines and seen on TV.
> Everything you say is like lip-synching NITELINE or something.

lotus represents probably 99.9% of the "computer underground."

99.9% cuz after all, the media has ta have SOMEONE to point it's fantasy
finger at.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 216 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 13:48:55 EST

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> redeye (Sigmund Obispo) writes:
>
> > I think the _simplest_ way is to call and ask. Sorry, couldn't resist.

>
> However, this will not work if you are dealing with either the number to
> computer, fax machine, or most hacker/phreak types who are extremely
> paranoid and suspicious.
>
> Thug
>

Calling the number will also not work for the case in question --
when the phone line in the house in question is being used to forward
calls to another location.

Which brings me to my NEXT question -- Ok, you have a suspect house
which has phones connected to it -- what is the simplist way, short
of going in the house and picking the phone up, to determine whether
the line is active or not?

I'm assuming that I'm unable to call the number in question and be
able to hear if the phone in the house will ring.

dex-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 217 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 17:07:36 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> Calling the number will also not work for the case in question --
> when the phone line in the house in question is being used to forward
> calls to another location.
>
> Which brings me to my NEXT question -- Ok, you have a suspect house
> which has phones connected to it -- what is the simplist way, short
> of going in the house and picking the phone up, to determine whether
> the line is active or not?
>
> I'm assuming that I'm unable to call the number in question and be
> able to hear if the phone in the house will ring.
>
> dex-

I don't know what you're trying to do or trying to find out about whoever,
but maybe you should just either (a) get a life!
(b) just hire a P.I. or whatever.

If you have a legitimate reason for obtaining such information, a P.I.
will be glad to oblige. Even if you don't, most P.I.'s are scummy characters
and will oblige as well.

If you are trying to obtain information on someone who you wish harm upon,
and who hasn't done anything to you, I hope you drop dead. Or better yet,
I hope someone decides to stalk you and make your life a miserable hell.

I am NOT giving you the information directly about tracking down
people/information, because, for all I know, you could be a crazed
psychopath or a stalker of some kind. In which case, get a life, or better
yet, just go get laid you geek.

However, if you have legitimate reasons for knowing this stuff,
such information is easily found in books available from Loompanics,
Paladin Press, and other outfits. Also, you might want to read various P.I.
industry mags and order various P.I. training manuals and books.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 218 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 18:14:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <DNcXwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Was wondering when I was going to touch a nerve -- took roughly
30+ messages before someone questioned my motivation.

I'm a detective novelist based in the Silicon Valley -- been writing
and researching a new novel I've been working on for the past couple
of months and while the bulk of the novel is done, I'm making another
pass through to verify "technical accuracy".

Judging from the questions I've posed, you'll realize that much of the
novel concerns "hacking" -- if you've read my introduction, you'll
realize that I've been a part of CyberSpace for 10 years now and since
"The Hacker Crackdown" has explored the nonfictional of "hacking" --
I chose to explore the "hacking" world as part of a fictional scenario,
probably because it makes it easier to make much of the technical
information more palatable for the computerIlliterate.

So,
a) I appreciate y'all answering my questions
b) I intend no ill will to anyone
c) I have a life, barely...

-dex

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 219 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 19:06:13 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> Was wondering when I was going to touch a nerve -- took roughly
> 30+ messages before someone questioned my motivation.
>
> I'm a detective novelist based in the Silicon Valley -- been writing
> and researching a new novel I've been working on for the past couple
> of months and while the bulk of the novel is done, I'm making another
> pass through to verify "technical accuracy".

Oh, well.. since you're only half a sicko, have Mr. Character check the
impedence on the line. Depending, this might lower the impedence anyways
and trip the "Someone's On The Phone Light" on recent phones. Or, check
the voltage going through the wire. 48 volts if NO ONE is on the line, 6
if someone is.

|:- Wanna fight about it?! (grin) -:|
|:- nihilis@phantom.com -:|
|:- Joel Boutros -:|

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 220 of 447
Subject: Hacking in Fiction.
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 19:23:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <35HXwB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

This kind of brings up an interesting point. Awhile ago I began writing a
"hacker" story and I had this problem, because I wasn't sure if I should
include certain "how to" comments, such as effective beige boxing, and
whatnot. As a result, the story seemed really wishy washy. When I began
writing the story, in 1987, I hadn't explored any of the legal problems
with including such "how-to" comments in fictional works. I have since
stopped working on the story because I lost interest (read: I have been
too lazy), but I'm curious if anyone would know what sort of a liability
it might be to a writer if he included a "how-to" statement in a novel
which was used by some punk?

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 221 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking in Fiction.
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 21:25:13 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> too lazy), but I'm curious if anyone would know what sort of a liability
> it might be to a writer if he included a "how-to" statement in a novel
> which was used by some punk?

I was just discussing a similar problem with a friend who recently sold a
"hacker movie" script to a big studio in Hollywood. When he was working
on the script, I gave him any technical help he needed, but he was not
sure whether to put detailed instructions into the script for fear of
legal liability. In the end, he pretty much glossed over the intense sort
of stuff (ie: reprogramming your local 5ESS switch), but decided to take a
chance at showing on screen how a red box tape is made using two payphones,
an inductive coupler, and a mini tape recorder. Hopefully it will make it
to film.

The only time I know of when a book had serious legal problems was when
Radio Shack / Tandy published their first "red book" (Understanding
Telephone Electronics). The first printing had detailed information about
various switching equipment, trunks, and MF frequencies. This was a bad
choice of writing for them, especially during the blue box mania of the
mid-1980's. Bell Labs and AT&T threatened them with legal actions, and
subsequent printings had the detailed stuff replaced by useless block
diagrams. If you look on the inside cover of a current version of the
book, you will see a detailed liability disclaimer which wasn't there in
the first printing. This is in case, Joe Shmuck of Generic Cellular
Telephone Corp decides to sue Tandy because they explain the concept of
"cells" or even mention (gasp!!) what an ESN or MIN is. Smells a bit like
censorship, don't it?

All of this info is available in the Bell Technical Journals at any
library, but I guess the general public doesn't go to the libraries, while
Rat Shack's books are read by many more people.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 222 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 23:27:03 EST

nihilis (Joel Boutros) writes:

> Oh, well.. since you're only half a sicko, have Mr. Character check the
> impedence on the line. Depending, this might lower the impedence anyways
> and trip the "Someone's On The Phone Light" on recent phones. Or, check
> the voltage going through the wire. 48 volts if NO ONE is on the line, 6
> if someone is.

But a good line tap will compensate for the drop in impedance. A better
way is to monitor the line with an oscilloscpe and log the impedance
change when you pick up the phone. Most line taps remain off until you
pick up the phone, and then turn on to start recording/logging.

Blue shirts in the city. Run!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 223 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 23:47:58 EST

enzyme (David Pincus) writes:

> nihilis (Joel Boutros) writes:
>
> > Oh, well.. since you're only half a sicko, have Mr. Character check the
> > impedence on the line. Depending, this might lower the impedence anyways
> > and trip the "Someone's On The Phone Light" on recent phones. Or, check
> > the voltage going through the wire. 48 volts if NO ONE is on the line, 6
> > if someone is.
>
> But a good line tap will compensate for the drop in impedance. A better
> way is to monitor the line with an oscilloscpe and log the impedance
> change when you pick up the phone. Most line taps remain off until you
> pick up the phone, and then turn on to start recording/logging.

Actually, an inductive tap can do pretty much the same thing, without
having to even cut into the wires, and without depleting any voltage
that would be noticed by a cheap inline tap detector.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 224 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 02:40:22 EST
In-Reply-To: <2PFXwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

You could post a/the contextual paragraph<s> and see what happens.

CritiC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 225 of 447
Subject: Fictional Hacking
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 13:40:40 EST
In-Reply-To: <Z63XwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

From a fictional writers standPoint, 95% of everything I've read on this
board would be MUCH too techincal for the average detective novel
enthusiast -- this means that when it comes time to write about such
things as cellular phones, "backing out of a number", etc... I
have to gloss over the details for fear of losing the reader who drops
a load when they read the word impendence.

I'm not saying that they're aren't the folks out there who would be
more than comfortable wandering through technoJargon concerning cellular
phones and what not, but for a novel to be successful -- it must
appeal to widest range of people.

This fact protects much of my novel from legal problems.

And, when I do get technical, I use the basic ideas of whatever
technique I'm explaing and the hardCore specifics -- I've found that
most people find that much more intriguing, anyway.
Anyway -- I also have another question concerning the location of
files involving interstate drug trafficking. If someone is convicted
of such a thing (and they cross state lines), these "records of
conviction" will become a part of the FBI files? Is this true?

-dex.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 226 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 18:17:07 EST

enzyme (David Pincus) writes:

> nihilis (Joel Boutros) writes:
>
> > Oh, well.. since you're only half a sicko, have Mr. Character check the
> > impedence on the line. Depending, this might lower the impedence anyways
> > and trip the "Someone's On The Phone Light" on recent phones. Or, check
> > the voltage going through the wire. 48 volts if NO ONE is on the line, 6
> > if someone is.
>
> But a good line tap will compensate for the drop in impedance. A better
> way is to monitor the line with an oscilloscpe and log the impedance
> change when you pick up the phone. Most line taps remain off until you
> pick up the phone, and then turn on to start recording/logging.
>
Well, I thought question was if someone was using the phone. This would
work in this case.. the voltage idea should always work, except unless
you're planning on not using resisters.. you'll probably end up frying
something. A few logic gates would do it. (oh, BTW: Chances are, I'm
dangerously out of place, I've never tried any of it, but I know what the
48 volts is, I know one can design hardware, and if they're REALLY
bored/rich, software that can do this..)

I might try it one day just to see if it'll owrk, tag it on my phone box
outside and hope the phone company doesn't come often.

|:- Wanna fight about it?! (grin) -:|
|:- nihilis@phantom.com -:|
|:- Joel Boutros -:|

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 227 of 447
Subject: Technical Fiction.
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 18:29:14 EST
In-Reply-To: <9iaZwB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'd have to agree with Dex about the ability of a readership to grasp (or
even care about) most of the technical conversation regarding Ma Bell on
this or any other such database. Then again, insulting your readership by
not including at least rudimentary facts is never a good idea. When I
postedmy story on the local VAX here, in order to weed out some of the
problems with the plot, et al., I posted two versions: one with tech, one
without. Many of the readers complained that they didn't care about the
finer points of an MP-5 or the relative spead of a Seagate hardrive, and
said that it was more a distraction than a focal point. I guess it might
really depend on the story. Then again, this topic is not really
condusive to the "thread" of this particular forum, now is it? I'd still
like to hear more about the liability of including such info in a
fictional story, if there are any actual lawyers out there. I mean, if
they can confiscate GURPs Cyberpunk (or whatever) from Steve Jackson
because it is a "tutorial on hacking," who is to say that your average work of
fiction can't be considered the same thing?

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 228 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 18:34:37 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> Anyway -- I also have another question concerning the location of
> files involving interstate drug trafficking. If someone is convicted
> of such a thing (and they cross state lines), these "records of
> conviction" will become a part of the FBI files? Is this true?
>
> -dex.

Yeah, it's all put into NCIC (National Crime Information Center), the
FBI's computer center, even non-interstate crimes, especially any
felonies. NCIC _is_ Big Brother. It's not just one computer, it's an
entire center of computers. Basically if you're a fugitive and you're
arrested for jay walking, when the cop runs you through NCIC, you're toast
buddy.. Here's some advice for fugitives out there: don't carry any ID,
erase your fingerprints with acid, and if you are ever hassled/questioned
for anything minor, don't tell the cops anything, not even your name, just
keep your mouth shut, pretend like you don't understand anything. If they
can't identify you, they HAVE to release you within 48 hours or charge you
with a crime. And they cannot charge you with a crime if they do not know your
identity. Neither can they fill out any search or arrest warrants if they
cannot identify you by any name. If they try to take your photograph,
make sure to smile widely or at least have a different expression on your
face than the expression you had on your face when they took the photo
that's inside the NCIC computers. This way, if they run your newest photo
through NCIC for a pattern match, the chances are very small that the
neural net / expert system at NCIC will match up the two photos and pop up
your real identity. New facial hair is highly recommended if you're on
the run.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 229 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 22:07:33 EST
In-Reply-To: <ecBZwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Thug, it scares me that you know all this stuff.

(Erasing for finger prints with acid?> Man, that doesn't sound pleasant.)

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 230 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: siva (The Destroyer)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 01:05:14 EST
In-Reply-To: <a8kZwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Oh, man, don't tell me you're falling for it too!. Listen, Thug is a 41
year old woman in Water Pass, Missouri who's husband used to work for data
general. He talked about work incessantly, she listened and remembered.
He died in 1983 of a heart attack, she's been living through this persona
ever since.

I met her once at a Denny's. We both got drunk, we went back to her
place, but I was too wasted...

We parted amiably.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 231 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 04:15:34 EST

siva (The Destroyer) writes:

> Oh, man, don't tell me you're falling for it too!. Listen, Thug is a 41
> year old woman in Water Pass, Missouri who's husband used to work for data
> general. He talked about work incessantly, she listened and remembered.
> He died in 1983 of a heart attack, she's been living through this persona
> ever since.
>
> I met her once at a Denny's. We both got drunk, we went back to her
> place, but I was too wasted...
>
> We parted amiably.
>
>
Gosh who would have thought it? It almost reminds me of these
people that I used to know in Buford CO who knew Farmer before
he got big in snowboarding and decided to try to capitalize on
their exquisite knowledge of the industry by designing a truly
rad board. Except they got confused and put trucks on it. So
Martin was running the gauntlet in Tahoe when a truck (i don't
know why he didn't take them off) caught on a rock and he fell
about a hundred feet into powder. He submarined four feet and
died before anyone could get to him. He went to Denny's, too.

: drow :

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 232 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 14:54:49 EST
In-Reply-To: <N92ZwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

There is a phile on redspread.css.itd.umich.edu in the Illuminatus
section about the Lenny<s>.Consp in <g>files/hidden/orders/lodges/Illumina
tus/current/

CritiC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 233 of 447
Subject: Garbage.
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 19:14:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <3TV1wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

When you throw something away, who owns it?

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 234 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 20:17:35 EST

siva (The Destroyer) writes:

> Oh, man, don't tell me you're falling for it too!. Listen, Thug is a 41
> year old woman in Water Pass, Missouri who's husband used to work for data
> general. He talked about work incessantly, she listened and remembered.
> He died in 1983 of a heart attack, she's been living through this persona
> ever since.
>
> I met her once at a Denny's. We both got drunk, we went back to her
> place, but I was too wasted...
>
> We parted amiably.

It's a lie! A lie I tell you! I am not a 41 year old woman.. Damn you..

I am actually a Nazi war criminal who is hiding out in a small log cabin
somewhere in the thick forests of Saskatchawan. During the day I hunt
small rodents with my Luger pistol, and at night I log into the Vox
through the use of a mind modem that was implanted into my head by Dr.
Mengele in 1941. Right now it goes at only 50 baud, which was considered
top speed and a mark of true eliteness 52 years ago. I will soon be doing
a self-upgrade to v.32bis/16.8k/fax by adding a DSP chip and a pirated copy of
the Zyxel eproms which I ftp'd down from the net. When this occurs, I
will be able to set up a SLIP feed from phantom.com straight into my mind.

I venture into town to purchase supplies once every 6 months, and I do
happen to dress like a 41 year old woman as my disguise, but ONLY to get
supplies. I AM NOT SOME KIND OF PERVERT/SICKO, YOU KNOW? Damn, I wish
people would just stop spreading these insane rumors..

tm
Murdering Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 235 of 447
Subject: Re: Garbage.
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 07:47:03 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> When you throw something away, who owns it?

The person who finds it next.

... Finder's Keepers, Loser's Weepers.

|:- Wanna fight about it?! (grin) -:|
|:- nihilis@phantom.com -:|
|:- Joel Boutros -:|

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 236 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 13:21:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <ecBZwB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Does the Freedom of Information Act apply to the files located in
the NCIC? I was under the impression that it applied to all
government files...

-dex

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 237 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: awright (Andrew)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 13:33:18 EST

Howdy,
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV ...

Actually, although I'm not a lawyer, I did just take a Constitutional Law
class. It's my understanding that, in the current legal climate, anything
you publish is o.k. as long as it is not directly a call to action. That
means that information about illegal activities is perfectly legal as long
as it is just information and not action. Companies may not like this, as
when BellSouth threatened 2600 magazine, but they don't actually have any
legal standing. Fiction, even with real information, should certainly be
fine. You could try asdking one of the EFF peiople for more information
(I think Rita Rouvalis is on Vox), the general address is eff@eff.com.

Andrew

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 238 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 14:18:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <7Pm3wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Man, I'm getting a lot of line noise. Anyway, I hadn't even thought to
ask an EFF person about this stuff....heh. I sure look the lamer now,
don't I?

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 239 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 15:34:14 EST
In-Reply-To: <kTo3wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Andrew is mostly right. It's not illegal to talk about or even
write instructions for doing illegal things. Thus, you would have
nothing to fear from the government. But, conceivably you could be sued
by a corperation that asserts that you have published "trade secrets"
that have hurt its profits or allowed their competitors access to
information they shouldn't have had access to. I don't think there are
any successful cases of such lawsuits involving computer crime. Bellcore
tried threatening 2600 magazine with this type of lawsuit, but they don't
have a foot to stand on since THEY HAVE NO COMPETITORS. So, I wouldn't
worry too much about the legality of publishing specifics. The most
you'll get is a harassing phone call from Bellcore or someone.

Michael | "I tell you one must still have
(inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com) | chaos in one to give birth to
| a dancing star!" -Nietzsche

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 240 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 21:56:49 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:
> Man, I'm getting a lot of line noise. Anyway, I hadn't even thought to
> ask an EFF person about this stuff....heh. I sure look the lamer now,
> don't I?

[>ood, i was looking the lamer back when i was 13.

Hope that isn't condescending or anything... :)

: drow :

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 241 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 22:11:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <e203wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Heh heh heh. Cute.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 242 of 447
Subject: Tymnet
From: lotus (Matthew Naparty)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 20:31:44 EST
In-Reply-To: <kPa4wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Does anyone know a tymnet # for New York City? Or maby u know where I
can get the # or #s for tymnet......... I believe it's a network which
serves banks, companies n such........
thanx

Lotus.......

(__)
oo )
|_/\

CuLt Of ThE dEaD cOw (:

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 243 of 447
Cc: <20>
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: dream11 (Eric L. Tompkins)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 20:53:41 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> Does the Freedom of Information Act apply to the files located in
> the NCIC? I was under the impression that it applied to all
> government files...
>
> -dex

It applies to all federal information, however each request is reviewed by
the originator to determine if it can be released. Many unclassified docs
are not releasable because they would reveal personal information or could
compromise a government acquisition.

Eric

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 244 of 447
Subject: Re: Tymnet
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 12:18:20 EST

lotus (Matthew Naparty) writes:

> Does anyone know a tymnet # for New York City? Or maby u know where I
> can get the # or #s for tymnet......... I believe it's a network which
> serves banks, companies n such........
> thanx

Call the compuserve 800#, 1-800-go-phones (I think?)

I think they use telenet/tymnet too..

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez, MS-DOS Enthusiast !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@infoserv.com carlos@dorsai.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@phantom.com FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 245 of 447
Subject: Hacker Beginings
From: asa (Matthew Bell)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 14:08:13 EST
In-Reply-To: <0k96wB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I personally am still in school and extremly interested in the world of
the Matrix and such, it intrigues me as well as does the hacking sides of
it. I as most people have done before getting on networks rana a small
BBS for a short time in a local limeted area that may get a total of 100
users if your lucky. Even at that level the curiosity of hacking is
there. Thouhg as a system operator it is your duty to keep them out I
suppose, I was always hoping that someone would try that I might see how
they went about it. Perhaps this is the way some people got hooked on
hacking or maybe they just said I need some info on oh say military
outposts, and then called one up and hacked it. I don't know how many
people on here have actually gone hacking or just know about it, I
persoannly have no Idea where to start if I were to hack, (might be a
nice Idea for a book from someone) but calling here recently and finding
such emense amounts of information on subjects that interest me and also
world known persona like Bruce Sterling, phiber Optic and Emmanule
Goldstien, just adds to my curiosity. Perhaps the main deterant of
hacking for me was the ethics behind it, the fear of the Feds or whatever
protection is out there. but here is my question (finnaly)

For those of you who have hacked, did the ethics actually come into
question? or rather did the Curiosity far outway the downb sides?

A A
S

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 246 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 16:28:13 EST

asa (Matthew Bell) writes:

> For those of you who have hacked, did the ethics actually come into
> question? or rather did the Curiosity far outway the downb sides?
>
> A A
> S

It was exploration and didn't have anything to do with the good and bad
bullshit that is being sold today. It had nothing to do with names or
issues and right vs. wrong vs. whatever, it was interesting and fun. In
the near past its stopped being that way.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 247 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 16:16:52 EST
In-Reply-To: <eoD7wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

>Perhaps the main deterant of hacking for me was the ethics behind it,
>the fear of the Feds or Whatever protection is out there.

Ummm, I don't see the threat of a bust as being an ethical question, I
mean it is highly impractical to get busted, but is it unethical? I do
not have a FEAR of feds, but I do keep a watchful eye and ear out for
things going on, and can disappear when the heat gets turned up. I don't
want to get nailed any more than you do but it doesn't slow me down too
much.

The ethics of hacking are much more complex than the average day-to-day
ethics. First off, a hacker does something that everyone else thinks is
TERRABLY WRONG. However it isn't (at least in my mind) One of the most
amusing statements I have heard is something alung the lines of 'Hackers
complain about their freedom of privacy being breached, but isn't that
what the do to us???' My answer is NO! A hacker respects privacy, more
than the average person, especially in cyberspace, because he knows that
security here and privacy here are minimal if they are nt protected.
Hackers don't get their legit accounts hacked. period. They know how to
create a very difficult to hack password, essentially defeating
re-crypt/compare password hackers (ie KC)
We find security holes. And the more ethical of us report them. See, i
know that if I break into a system, that I will not destroy it or damage
it in any way. However, there seem to me more and more of the malicious
type of hacker around (especially in the Mondo 2000 crowd) and I think
that if one of these folks found himself with free reign on a UNIX, they
would probably take it down. This is unethical.
So more often than not, I report to the root account (often mailed from
the root account) how I got in, and (if I know) how to fix that hole. I
also give them a fidonet address that they can mail to to reach me (it
often changes) More often than not, I get 'thank you' letters in the box
(this is for the letters I get, most systems don't respond) from
sysadmins, and occasionally an offer of an account on the system.

So what are the hacker's ethics? Ill give you a list of mine...

1. Information should be shared
2. Don't destroy anything, except possibly to cover your tracks
3. If a security hole is being exploited in a bad manner (used to crash
a system or to FSP wares) then close the hole.
4. Wares are not important, and do not belong on the net, get them from
a local BBS
5. If someone makes a great effort to hide something, its probably worth
looking at.
6. When you get busted, don't squeal on your friends.
7. "Ill respect your privacy when you stop trying to hide things
from the public"
8. If you find the slolution to World Peace somewhere on the net
share it!

-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 248 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: sheldon (Jeremy Day)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 16:37:22 EST
In-Reply-To: <q6J7wB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, yeah, my humble beginnings in what I consider "hacking" had
nothing at all to do with any ethical questions. There was no
question of where to "start" hacking, either, it just doesn't
work that way for me. I was in spirit a hacker right from the
time I started getting into computers and modems, not knowing
that much about anything but willing to experiment to learn.
The board I was on had a call forwarding setup between two
or three towns that I learned to use for my advantage. The
point is not what I did (trivial) but that I just got in there
and figured it out. I'm still doing that, just on a different
level, it's the same thing.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 249 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: sheldon (Jeremy Day)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 16:48:53 EST

toxic (Toxic Avenger) writes:

> 4. Wares are not important, and do not belong on the net, get them from
> a local BBS

Hmm. I would if I could, sure (there IS no good local bbs here) but
I don't see why it's actually unethical to get that stuff on the net.
It's not as important as a lot of other things, I agree, but I don't
think that just because wares "don't belong on the net" in your
idealized picture of what the net should be that I should
stop taking advantage of the fact that they're there.
Oh well.

I agree entirely with the rest of your list there.
I don't knowif the ethical problems involved are more complex
than the ones people deal with all the time, but they are
certainly different enough to potentially create
misunderstandings.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 250 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 17:39:33 EST
In-Reply-To: <74k7wB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I never really hacked much, having spent most of my time exploring the
phone system in beautiful Rochester, MN. I don't think I ever cared
about ethics: I didn't think I would ever get caught abusing codes or
dialing 800s or any of that lamer stuff, and, quite frankly, I didn't care
what the consequences were for my actions. I was acutely aware of the
fact that it was illegal, but it didn't stop me. Ethics clearly took the
backburner behind my overriding desire to call every BBS in America so
that I could meet cool and interesting people.

I don't do most of the stuff I used to do when I was 16, and a lot of that
has to do with my outgrowing ModemLand, for the most part. I think that
ethics are, for the most part, a crock of shit, but that is just me. I
don't know anyone whose motive for hacking or phreaking was based on an
ethical decision. I'm not saying to sell your soul or anything. It is a
good idea to have judgement when getting into this area, because judgement
will keep you out of jail. Your ethics really must depend on what you
want to accomplish: if you just want to learn how to use various systems,
then there is obviously no point in crashing said systems because 1) you
may want to go back to them and 2) Someone else may want to use them.

Personally, I believe that if you want to do damage, the virtual world is
not the place for it. Find a junkyard and bash some cars or something.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 251 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 20:24:44 EST
In-Reply-To: <TmJ7wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Tox et al...

In truth, things are so different now from the perspective of any
"competent" sysadmin that old values, ethics, intentions, what-have-you,
are completely passe. Any system with a net-connect can be hacked by some
bright little d00d with the right wareZ. Consequently, on our
net-accessible nodes we keep nothing that anyone could possibly give a
shit about. Certain areas are better protected than others. For instance, the
HRS (Human Resource System), FRS (Financial Resource System), and SIS
(Student Information System) are buried so deep in VMS bullshit that even
if you cared to, you wouldn't find it worth the energy you'd have to expend to
get to a point where anything could be altered. The systems that most
hackers would find really juicy and intriguing have been fire-walled, and
unless you have telekinetic powers or a friend on the inside, you just
ain't gonna get at'em!

The downside of this practice is that it makes it far more
difficult for individuals involved in the legitimate sharing of classified
and sensitive information to do their jobs. But, cest la guerre! The
easiest way to dispense with unwanted intruders and their hijinks is to
simply break the physical connection, and sadly, more and more, that is
what's happening.

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 252 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 23:38:21 EST
In-Reply-To: <X4u7wB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Oh, I did forget to add, however, that there are plenty of brain-dead
sysadmins still in jobs...So anyone desiring to crack a system will always
have lots of available choices...Just as with money, fools and their
information are soon parted.

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 253 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 22:38:33 EST

sheldon (Jeremy Day) writes:

> toxic (Toxic Avenger) writes:
>
> > 4. Wares are not important, and do not belong on the net, get them from
> > a local BBS
>
>
> Hmm. I would if I could, sure (there IS no good local bbs here) but
> I don't see why it's actually unethical to get that stuff on the net.
> It's not as important as a lot of other things, I agree, but I don't
> think that just because wares "don't belong on the net" in your
> idealized picture of what the net should be that I should
> stop taking advantage of the fact that they're there.
> Oh well.

FTP/FSP sites use up HUGE amounts of bandwidth, and pirate ones tend to
me the most heavily used ones. A site that has 40 users FSPing off of it
is brought slowly to its knees, strictly because of the amount of packets
it is sending out.

I was more saying 'don't hack a system just to FTP the newest wares from
finland, or to set up your own covert Filedistribution site'
I don't really have a problem with occasionally snagging a few new
things, especially when it is really late at night, and the traffic has
died down.

Did that clarify somewhat???
-t
/sd

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 254 of 447
Subject: Hacking Ethics
From: pyrus (Pyrus)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 02:44:52 EST

For anyone who wants to come out of retirement temporarily (or who isn't
yet retired), I'd like access to copy the philes from one directory of a
user at *.cc.utexas.edu -- I've tried everything short of marching into
the computation center with a submachine gun and forcing the administrator
to give me the files, and I can't get access. Pretty well guarded system,
and a bright user. Anyone up to the challenge of an information gathering
experience, feel free to write me. There must be a way to get it.. I just
can't find it (and I'm not an expert).

Any takers? We'll discuss the ethics of it later.. *grin*

^ The views and opinions above are the result of a hyper-caffeinated mind ^
..pyrus

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 255 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: sheldon (Jeremy Day)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 11:01:06 EST

toxic (Toxic Avenger) writes:
>
> FTP/FSP sites use up HUGE amounts of bandwidth, and pirate ones tend to
> me the most heavily used ones. A site that has 40 users FSPing off of it
> is brought slowly to its knees, strictly because of the amount of packets
> it is sending out.
>
> I was more saying 'don't hack a system just to FTP the newest wares from
> finland, or to set up your own covert Filedistribution site'
> I don't really have a problem with occasionally snagging a few new
> things, especially when it is really late at night, and the traffic has
> died down.
>
> Did that clarify somewhat???
> -t
> /sd

...yeah. Sure, that's just common sense to me. It's like anything
else: use it, but don't over-use it. Those sites that do nothing
but advertise and distribute huge databases of files to people
who download 60 or 70 a night and keep two or three are a
decided example of excess. I know, 'cuz the major local bbs
around here is exactly that. (It only has MS-dos warez though..
pretty opsysocentric in every way).

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 256 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 13:06:03 EST

toxic (Toxic Avenger) writes:
> FTP/FSP sites use up HUGE amounts of bandwidth, and pirate ones tend to
> me the most heavily used ones. A site that has 40 users FSPing off of it
> is brought slowly to its knees, strictly because of the amount of packets
> it is sending out.

fsp is more than another ftp. 40 fsp users can load the network less
heavily than 1 ftp user.

i know of no site closed down due to fsp usage.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 257 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 22:06:40 EST

doug (Douglas Luce) writes:

>
> i know of no site closed down due to fsp usage.
>

ucscc.ucsc.edu

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 258 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 00:46:06 EST

sheldon (Jeremy Day) writes:

> around here is exactly that. (It only has MS-dos warez though..
> pretty opsysocentric in every way).

Triple word score on "opsysocentric." I know that you probably use this
word in daily conversation, but *I* was taken aback.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 259 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: sheldon (Jeremy Day)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 19:16:24 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

>
> Triple word score on "opsysocentric." I know that you probably use this
> word in daily conversation, but *I* was taken aback.

Hey, well, you come up with a better word then. I don't pretend
to be intrayenscient at word-smithing, you know..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 260 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 18:09:24 EST

toxic (Toxic Avenger) writes:
> doug (Douglas Luce) writes:
> >
> > i know of no site closed down due to fsp usage.
>
> ucscc.ucsc.edu

news to me. maybe you could fill me in on the details.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 261 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacker Beginings
From: tech (David Giancaspro)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 16:35:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <Di4DXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'm new to the Hack world and I'm looking for some places to start
learning about the nuts and bolts of the Technical Underground. I'm not
looking for propriety info or anyones deep dark hack secrets and tricks
but for a general starting place. Can someone suggest a good reading list
for a begginer? I'm an engineering student whose always been interested
in exploring the technical underground. I'm not a total technical
illiterate but some of these three letter sentences (FSP) get me lost.
I'm running MS-DOS but plan on learning UNIX as soon as I can Bullshit
(sorry social engineer) a sys-admin at my school for an account(they can
be tight with accounts and all my old freinds from the computer lab
either graduated,got expelled or are in rehab). I have no preference in
the system (phone, computer ,warez) I just want to learn as much as I can
about everything technical. I'm kinda old to be starting (27, yes I know
this wellpast retirement for most) and the tech files in the archives are
a little to advanced but I'm plodding my way through, and the basics seem
to be assumed knowledge. Thanx
Tech
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 262 of 447
Subject: Re: Printer Virus
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 03:24:41 EST

king (Randy King) writes:

> FYI, my understanding of the Iraqi printer virus story is that there was
> an April 1 article concerning this thing that went out over the newswire
> or something and it got picked up by a number of news agencies. As you
> will note if you look at your calendars, April 1 is also known as April
> Fool's Day...
>
> TK

Well, I did hear that the U.S. did bring down alot of Iraq's
communications networks via computer viruses. (Not to mention a few mega
ton explosions)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 263 of 447
Subject: Re: Crackdown progress?
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 03:28:13 EST

chemist (The Chemist) writes:

> simonm (Simon Moon) writes:
>
> > I've not seen any news related to the various hacker trials lately....
> > How are they going? What's up with Steve Jackson Games, did they ever get
> > their stuff back? How's Phiber doing? Has it been a slow month, am I
> > really out of the news loop, or is the "Criminal Justice" system in the US
> > just painfully slow? Enquiring minds want to know.
>
> Read the rest of the system, both of those were talked about within the
> last week dude! Rita said SJG is still in 'discovery' and going to stay
> there a little longer or just exiting that stage, so the whole thing can
> finally get going.
>
> From the dudes in MOD everyone has now plead except for abene, stira and
> one other guy (phiber, scorpion and elias who I think is Acid Phreak but I
> don't remember). What this usually means according to people I've asked,
> is that the MOD guys who recently copped a plea have agreed to testify
> against Abene and Stira. From what has been written about it and from the
> way its talked about by legal people and security people like Donn Parker,
> the government will trade everyone in MOD to nail Abene and make sure he
> does some jail time this time around (#2 for him within the last 2 years).
>
>
> -tC
>

Oh please. You have NO idea what you are talking about. I DO. I happen to
be one of those people that pled guilty. It was that, or face a few years
in prison. (Which Julio Fernandez AKA: OUTLAW, and John Lee AKA: Corrupt
might do anyway) I openly admit that what I did was wrong. (Not that I
have to, they have the transcripts of the voice taps anyway)

I DID get jail time. Not fun, not fun at all. It REALLY isn't worth it.
TRUST ME.

Well, that's enough. Any questions may be directed to me IN MAIL. (I just
MIGHT answer them)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 264 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 03:45:20 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> Was wondering when I was going to touch a nerve -- took roughly
> 30+ messages before someone questioned my motivation.
>
> I'm a detective novelist based in the Silicon Valley -- been writing
> and researching a new novel I've been working on for the past couple
> of months and while the bulk of the novel is done, I'm making another
> pass through to verify "technical accuracy".
>
> Judging from the questions I've posed, you'll realize that much of the
> novel concerns "hacking" -- if you've read my introduction, you'll
> realize that I've been a part of CyberSpace for 10 years now and since
> "The Hacker Crackdown" has explored the nonfictional of "hacking" --
> I chose to explore the "hacking" world as part of a fictional scenario,
> probably because it makes it easier to make much of the technical
> information more palatable for the computerIlliterate.
>
> So,
> a) I appreciate y'all answering my questions
> b) I intend no ill will to anyone
> c) I have a life, barely...
>
> -dex

Oh please. You are not a "P.I." Any P.I. worth his wieght in shit knows
how to do everything you just asked about.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 265 of 447
Subject: Re: Technical Fiction.
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 03:48:45 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> I'd have to agree with Dex about the ability of a readership to grasp (or
> even care about) most of the technical conversation regarding Ma Bell on
> this or any other such database. Then again, insulting your readership by
> not including at least rudimentary facts is never a good idea. When I
> postedmy story on the local VAX here, in order to weed out some of the
> problems with the plot, et al., I posted two versions: one with tech, one
> without. Many of the readers complained that they didn't care about the
> finer points of an MP-5 or the relative spead of a Seagate hardrive, and
> said that it was more a distraction than a focal point. I guess it might
> really depend on the story. Then again, this topic is not really
> condusive to the "thread" of this particular forum, now is it? I'd still
> like to hear more about the liability of including such info in a
> fictional story, if there are any actual lawyers out there. I mean, if
> they can confiscate GURPs Cyberpunk (or whatever) from Steve Jackson
> because it is a "tutorial on hacking," who is to say that your average work o

Well, remember the old movie war games? Good. Now remember the scene
where Mathew Broderick makes a free call at a payphone using a can top?
Well, right after that movie Ma Bell had to change all the payphones in
the continental United States because it really worked. The phone calls
alone, if I remember correctly, came to a total expense of over 50
million dollars or something. (Might be a much larger figure, but I
wouldn't want to be accused of exagerating)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 266 of 447
Subject: Re: Fictional Hacking
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 03:53:58 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> Thug, it scares me that you know all this stuff.
>
> (Erasing for finger prints with acid?> Man, that doesn't sound pleasant.)
>
>
>
> Ozone
> - Surreal McCoy

I think Thug has been watching to many movies.

1. There is a LAW, which states that you MUST carry ID with you, so right
there you would be breaking the law.
2. They will take you in front of a judge, which will find you in contept
of court and:
1. Keep you in jail until you tell them who you are.

or

2. Just give you a long jail sentence.

This is not never-never land.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 267 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 03:57:36 EST
In-Reply-To: <F1sRXB11w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hey Alfie, I understand jail was no fun, but you need to lose that attitude.

A piece of hearsay that is completly redundant, a holier-than-thou
trashing of someone's recap of various roumors and comments, a rude
denouncement, a snotty anecdote that missed the point, and a legal claim
without any reference (I'm quite sure you're wrong on this one). Five in a
row! And the night is still young, who knows what he'll do next! Give that
man a prize!

Try breathing deeply between keystrokes. Or, perhaps meditating on what
the Savior would have said might help; "cast ye the first stone..." and all
that.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 268 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 04:45:55 EST
In-Reply-To: <PeTRXB12w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hey delafe i'm glad you decide to contribute, but
hack yourself a better attitude or something
from ddn.mil or something, will ya? oh, please.
this is still a
free country no
matter how hard
the gov tries 2
make it otw, so
i doubt there's <$include /root/gfx/attitude.gif>
a LAW that says
you 'MUST carry
ID with you' if
u can quote otw
then DO IT. -me
'Jafar, Jafar, he's our man! If he can't do it,
GREAT!' -Genie, Aladdin

: drow :

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 269 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 09:10:09 EST
In-Reply-To: <9mVRXB9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

In fact, I guarantee you that there is no law requiring the carry of ID as
such. Proposed legislation instituting a "national ID card" has been
floundering in the halls of congress for years. Fortunately, neither the
nazis nor the reds have managed to sneak it through yet. Unfortunately,
there is a proposal floating around now in the Senate which would create
such an ID card. I think politicos refer to this measure as managed
transitioning. The proposal would create a law that requires the
possession of a national ID, but only at preliminary job interviews as a
means of providing proof of citizenship...I can only believe that it
wouldn't be long before having it in your possession at all times would be
right behind the initial law as a requirement.

Of course there are other types of ID, such as driver's licenses, that one
may be required to produce under particular circumstances...But, I believe
that all such laws are mandated by the states and not the feds.

-Falconer
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 270 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 11:51:35 EST

falconer (Steve Copold) writes:

> Of course there are other types of ID, such as driver's licenses, that one
> may be required to produce under particular circumstances...But, I believe
> that all such laws are mandated by the states and not the feds.

What about people who don't drive?

Mr. De La Fe is wrong in his statement that the law requires you to carry
ID. This is not the case. You don't have to carry any ID. Secondly, you
have the right under the Fifth Ammendment not to say anything to the
police. You don't have to state your name if you think it may incriminate
you. It is _UP TO THEM_ to provide evidence/proof that you committed a
crime or are a wanted fugitive. The latter they cannot do conclusively if
you have erased your fingerprints. If they charge you with a crime, and
they don't have enough proof to do so, you can sue them for false arrest
and imprisonment. If they don't charge you with a crime, THEY HAVE TO
RELEASE YOU, it's that simple.
The reason most people get mangled when arrested is because they tell the
cops who they are, and they usually keep on talking until they incriminate
themselves. They do this because they FEAR people in uniform and feel
obliged to open up their mouth and produce ID. The Constitution states
that you don't have to do this, but people do it anyway, because they are
stupid, and somehow feel that at the time of arrest/questioning, that the
police are acting in their (the person's) best interest. They are not, the
police are always acting in their own best interest, which is either to
put someone away for as long as possible (convict them of a crime), or to
cover their own asses when they fuck things up (violate the rights of the
person being arrested/questioned).

Let me just point out that there is a *BIG* difference between not saying
anything to the police and lying to the police. If you give the police
a false name, you're basically screwed. If you don't give them any name,
you are exercizing your Fifth Ammendment rights. Best thing to do is to
not say anything, just pretend that you are mute, or say "I know my rights
and it is my right not to say anything to you." That's it.. Don't
say anything else.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 271 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 13:59:35 EST

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> What about people who don't drive?

Fuck'em...Let'em walk!

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 272 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 14:17:38 EST

falconer (Steve Copold) writes:

> Fuck'em...Let'em walk!

...right, and if we all apply the same attitude people who
dont do "socially" constructive tasks can be "fucked" off
too.

.... i guess i'm walking cause i ain't driving

kill fleas - hug a cossack

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez, MS-DOS Enthusiast !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@infoserv.com carlos@dorsai.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@phantom.com FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 273 of 447
Subject: Wargames and Trash
From: heretic (The Heretic)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 15:23:00 EST

In response to a previous question about who owns garbage: That
depends on what it is and where it is. Is this question about
dumpster diving or government snooping or something else?

As for the Wargames-publicized phone trick, it worked as recently
as 3 years ago in Chicago.

--Heretic

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 274 of 447
Subject: stupid miranda rights stuff
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 16:47:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <25osXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

one thing everyone knows from media attention is the miranda rights

and i quote from any given cop show/film/porno
"you have the right to remain silent"

wow
cool
you also do not have to gie up any of your possessions to them
and a lot of times they cant even search YOU without your permission

whihc is why they ask if they can search your car instead of jus doing it
or ask if they can have those fliers that you have instead of just taking them

and the reason that there probably is a case against the SS
or whoever in the 2600 deal is because a few people refused to show id
and were forced to

the one thing to note though
if the crime aint thtat serious, dont push your luck
i mean the cops had me once and i got the jist that they would give me a
ticekt
at most but probably let me off instead of the threatened arrest

he didnt arrest me, but said, youll stay right here
i didnt have an id on me and he didnt push for it
of course i was driving a car.. so i had at least one charge
against me

basically the cop couldve done anythign he wanted to me
wihtout arresting me, cuz i didnt want to be arrested
and if i resisted, then i would probably get arrested

actually i dint lie to him , but i didnt tell him the whole absolute
truth about everything and he got real pissing adn charged me with
lying to an officer, which i would really like to see hold up in court
but you never know, i doubt i coudl afford a good lawyer

and of course the other thing to consider is if you do get arrested
do you want to stay in jail or get released on your own recognisance
important choice to make
one gives you freedom the other makes them do something with you quicker
cuz they have to pay to keep you in jail

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 275 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 16:59:45 EST

drow (Doug Rau) writes:

> this is still a
> free country no
> matter how hard
> the gov tries 2
> make it otw, so
> i doubt there's <$include /root/gfx/attitude.gif>
> a LAW that says
> you 'MUST carry
> ID with you' if
> u can quote otw
> then DO IT. -me

I've heard about students at my school (tell me I'm wrong someone from
+east.people... and I'll shutup) busted for that. Sure, the cop was in
for some other reason, and the student didn't have ID... oh, well..

I personally, would be burning the thing excpe the plastic....

|:- Wanna fight about it?! (grin) -:|
|:- nihilis@phantom.com -:|
|:- Joel Boutros -:|

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 276 of 447
Subject: Re: Wargames and Trash
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 16:55:53 EST

heretic (The Heretic) writes:

> As for the Wargames-publicized phone trick, it worked as recently
> as 3 years ago in Chicago.

They never actually "fixed" the phone system / payphones to prevent this
trick. Basically it worked, and still does work to a certain extent here
in NYC. The trick I'm talking about is grounding the microphone wire in
the payphone handset to the case of the phone using a think nail that
can fit through the holes in the mouthpiece. This grounding works to
simulate the E&M signalling sent when a coin has been physically dropped
into the phone. This is different from the red box tones, those are only
used to signal the amount, not whether actual coins were physically
deposited. The "nail trick" as it was called only allowed one to place
local calls, you still needed a red box to dial long distance.

The way they "fixed" it here in NYC, is basically by making the microphones
hardened so that one cannot puncture the aluminum wrapping. In theory,
if you can unscrew the lid to the mouthpiece, you can still ground it to
the payphone case and make a free local phone call. The problem is that
the mouthpiece lids are superglued shut.

What does still work is using a small battery powered drill to drill a tiny
hole near the mouthpiece and use an unfolded paper clip to perform the
grounding. They never did do away with E&M signaling like some have claimed.

The other thing they have added is MARS, which makes payphones immune to
red box use by using an analog sound filter between the microphone and
the local loop to notch out the red box freqs. The pay phone can still
send red box tones because it sends them out directly over the local loop
without having to go through the filter. Many payphones in Manhatten are
now using MARS.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 277 of 447
Subject: Required IDs..
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 19:49:11 EST
In-Reply-To: <uFTsXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

There is a thing called a "walkers license" which is seriously as
ridiculous as it sounds, BUT, the reason for such an inane ID is that
there are quite a few situations in which you can be required to carry an
ID, and can be arrested if found without it. The charge would probably
be "rouge and vagabond" which basically is a "you're in the wrong place
at the wrong time" type of charge, and is usually accompained by other
charges (theft, B&E, vandalism, etc) .. so while Alf's turbulent attitude
makes everyone want to believe he is wrong, and he did express the point
a little bit overbearingly, it is valid.

Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 278 of 447
Subject: Re: Required IDs..
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 20:29:51 EST

lgas (Laughing Gas) writes:

> There is a thing called a "walkers license" which is seriously as
> ridiculous as it sounds, BUT, the reason for such an inane ID is that
> there are quite a few situations in which you can be required to carry an
> ID, and can be arrested if found without it. The charge would probably
> be "rouge and vagabond" which basically is a "you're in the wrong place

Yeah, they can charge you with being a cosmetic product. I think you meant
to say rogue.

> at the wrong time" type of charge, and is usually accompained by other
> charges (theft, B&E, vandalism, etc) .. so while Alf's turbulent attitude
> makes everyone want to believe he is wrong, and he did express the point
> a little bit overbearingly, it is valid.

While your point does make sense if we were living in the 1950's, where
people were actually charged with this, along with other things like jay
walking, spitting, and loitering. In the 1990's such a charge really is a
violation of one's civil liberties of being in any public place at any
time providing you are breaking no law. *This* is exactly what the 2600
vs. SS case is about, come to think of it.

In the 1990's, at least here in NYC, people are sleeping in the streets,
homeless, more than likely not having any ID anyway, and they are never
bothered by the cops. Being a vagabond or derelict is not something
people are charged with, at least they haven't been since the late 1950's.

And given the racial attitudes of the 1990's, no police officer in his
right mind would ever walk up to a ethnic looking person who is not
committing any crime, and start to harass them. The fallout would be
immense. The same goes for anyone who *claims* to be homeless and has no
ID. They will not lock up such a person if they have no evidence of a
crime, because the ACLU would fly up their butt so fast, their tonsils
would be spinning and doing backflips.

I would still like someone to cite me a specific federal or state law that
explicitly requires one to carry ID. I'll make it even easier for you,
show me a law that requires one to present ID to a police officer. Now
that shouldn't be too hard to find, if it exists.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 279 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 00:16:55 EST

drow (Doug Rau) writes:

> hey delafe i'm glad you decide to contribute, but
> hack yourself a better attitude or something
> from ddn.mil or something, will ya? oh, please.
> this is still a
> free country no
> matter how hard
> the gov tries 2
> make it otw, so
> i doubt there's <$include /root/gfx/attitude.gif>
> a LAW that says
> you 'MUST carry
> ID with you' if
> u can quote otw
> then DO IT. -me
> 'Jafar, Jafar, he's our man! If he can't do it,
> GREAT!' -Genie, Aladdin
>
> : drow :

Well, it is not a law which is enforced, but it IS a law Did you know
that in New York, if you have less than five dollars in your pocket you
could be considered a vagerant?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 280 of 447
Subject: Re: Required IDs..
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 00:23:14 EST

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> lgas (Laughing Gas) writes:
>
>
> While your point does make sense if we were living in the 1950's, where
> people were actually charged with this, along with other things like jay
> walking, spitting, and loitering. In the 1990's such a charge really is a
> violation of one's civil liberties of being in any public place at any
> time providing you are breaking no law. *This* is exactly what the 2600
> vs. SS case is about, come to think of it.
>
> In the 1990's, at least here in NYC, people are sleeping in the streets,
> homeless, more than likely not having any ID anyway, and they are never
> bothered by the cops. Being a vagabond or derelict is not something
> people are charged with, at least they haven't been since the late 1950's.
>
> And given the racial attitudes of the 1990's, no police officer in his
> right mind would ever walk up to a ethnic looking person who is not
> committing any crime, and start to harass them. The fallout would be
> immense. The same goes for anyone who *claims* to be homeless and has no
> ID. They will not lock up such a person if they have no evidence of a
> crime, because the ACLU would fly up their butt so fast, their tonsils
> would be spinning and doing backflips.
>
> I would still like someone to cite me a specific federal or state law that
> explicitly requires one to carry ID. I'll make it even easier for you,
> show me a law that requires one to present ID to a police officer. Now
> that shouldn't be too hard to find, if it exists.
>
>
>
> Thug
>

Well, there are still towns in which you will get a fine, or be arrested
for jay walking, loitering, and spitting in the street. Hell, not long
ago they were giving fines in New York for spitting in the street!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 281 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: dsharp (david sharp)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 12:51:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <y0DTXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

>In NYC...<,
... when was the last time you saw someone get a ticket
for running a red light, speeding on Broadway, urinating or
defecating in the street? How about arrested for breaking into
an apartment or for any number of 'little crimes' ? My point
being that NYC is a bad example for yr argument. Our governments
can't require an ID because they don't issue you one. They don't issue IDs
because they can't afford it and are incapable of managing such a project.
In NYC there are
thousands of illegal immigrants collecting welfare or
Social Security because the governments are unable to
cross check lists. Any confidence you may have that you have certain
'rights' in this society is unfounded

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 282 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 16:15:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <qscuXB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

For the record: there is no law requiring you to carry ID or show it to a
police officer if you are in a public area.

thug (Murdering Thug) claims:

> And given the racial attitudes of the 1990's, no police officer in his
> right mind would ever walk up to a ethnic looking person who is not
> committing any crime, and start to harass them.

Sorry thug, I wish this was true, but it's simply not. Cops harrass people
of every race, law-abiding and criminal. They sure as hell have harrassed
me, both when I wasn't committing a crime, and when I was, or was about
to, but they couldn't prove it.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 283 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 18:20:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <k9LuXB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I hate it when I thought that I had something tosay, and then well, forgot
it. Oh well. Yeah, I think that racism is on the up in this nation,
especially in regards to law enforcement. The Rodney King incident is a
special one because it is documented. That sort of thing, perhaps not to
the same extent, happens daily even here in Minneapolis. Every sing
african-american friend that I have has a story about being harassed and
even beaten by a police officer, just for being there. There are strong
and deep stereotypes about certain segments of our society, and when there
isn't a camera on or a witness willing to testify, the shit just goes
unnoticed.

I guess I did have something to say after all.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 284 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 18:53:13 EST
In-Reply-To: <w1RuXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> Every sing[le] african-american friend that I have has a story about being
> harassed and even beaten by a police officer, just for being there.

Although I don't know many people who have been beaten by a cop, _everybody_
that I know in NYC has been harassed by one, regardless of race.

(I love the way Vox says "[ Can now UnJustify! ]" like it was a big deal.)

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 285 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 19:15:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <eJTuXB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

look.. its simple
new york aint atlanta georgia
and it sure aint irvine
almost every african american i know has a story
about minor or major harrassment from law enforcement officers
including professors

new york is more mixed than where i am and where i know
a guy who dropped out of his fraternity cuz part of the initiation
is bruning a cross on someones lawn
naw.. racism isnt prevalent

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 286 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 19:41:03 EST
In-Reply-To: <uJuuXB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Dana, I wasn't saying that racism wasn't prevalent, or even that cops
weren't racist, just that the cops harass _everybody_, not necessarily
equally, sure, but _everybody_. The revolution will only suceed if we
all realize (except for falconer) that we have something to gain; the
more-opressed-than-thou attitude prolly doesn't help much. I'm on your side.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 287 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 21:06:08 EST

simonm (Simon Moon) writes:

> ...The revolution will only suceed if we
> all realize (except for falconer) that we have something to gain...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Fuckin' right!

-Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 288 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: siva (The Destroyer)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 00:09:57 EST
In-Reply-To: <XoZuXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I got hassled when I was younger, even though my dad was a police chief
kinda guy, and I was a white suburban nerd.

Everybody gets hassled.

Some people have enough power and influence to hassle back.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 289 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 02:10:54 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> it. Oh well. Yeah, I think that racism is on the up in this nation,
> especially in regards to law enforcement. The Rodney King incident is a
> special one because it is documented. That sort of thing, perhaps not to

If the news media ever gave you a chance to view the ENTIRE King video, I
think you'd change your mind about that particular attack being a racist
one. After a very long, 100-mph + car chase, King jumped out of his car
and lunged at the officers. A 100KWatt Taser Gun blast failed to subdue
him, and he simply would not comply with any of the officers' demands,
which were to just lie the fuck down and spread his arms so they could
handcuff and search him. There were two other black men in the car; they
gave up voluntarily and were handcuffed and arrested without incident. I
personally think King brought at least 90% of it on himself, though I do
wonder about that fourth cop that's being retried...HE might have pushed
it a bit too far.

In any event, there's no way in hell that the government's going to win a
civil-rights violation trial, and then we're going to have to go through
another happy round of riots. Yay.

(This is not to say that there isn't a lot of racism amongst police; of
COURSE there is, because there's racism everywhere. But this particular
case ain't an example of it.)

--Aaron

Interesting sidenote: The guy that videotaped it couldn't care less about
civil rights. The first place he tried to sell the tape was to the LAPD;
they rejected his offer because they didn't think they'd need any
additional evidence in the matter. That's gotta be one of the Dumb Moves
of the Century.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 290 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 02:19:58 EST

simonm (Simon Moon) writes:

> Although I don't know many people who have been beaten by a cop, _everybody_
> that I know in NYC has been harassed by one, regardless of race.

I never was. In fact, the one time I was the victim of an attempted
mugging (note to anyone thinking of pulling an ATM robbery: don't get
greedy, cause most cards have limits on the amount you can withdraw at
once, and you might end up with nothing...ha!), I waited for the
undercover cops to show up. When they did, I got to ride around the
Village with them for a half-hour trying to find the scumbag, and they
were a lot of fun to be with. (Interestingly enough, after a while, we
decided to drive by BBQ, a restauant with a high percentage of black
customers, and the cops said, "Heh...this is where we should have looked
FIRST.")

--Aaron

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 291 of 447
Subject: Re: Required IDs..
From: hayden (Hugh Appet)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 15:10:20 EST

lgas (Laughing Gas) writes:

> There is a thing called a "walkers license" which is seriously as
> ridiculous as it sounds, BUT, the reason for such an inane ID is that
> there are quite a few situations in which you can be required to carry an
> ID, and can be arrested if found without it. The charge would probably
> be "rouge and vagabond" which basically is a "you're in the wrong place
> at the wrong time" type of charge, and is usually accompained by other
> charges (theft, B&E, vandalism, etc) .. so while Alf's turbulent attitude
> makes everyone want to believe he is wrong, and he did express the point
> a little bit overbearingly, it is valid.
>

You sound like a lawyer which I am not. But isn't the point raised
earlier true that these laws are different from state to state? I have
read quite a bit here in NY about the police being unable to arrest
homeless people precisely because the vagrancy laws here were either
challenged in court or changed.
I also find the talk about Constitutional rights strange. The police seem
to have considerable latitude when it comes to reasonble cause for
suspicion even with Warren court protections for 'criminals'. It also
seems a bit of bravado to call people stupid as was done earlier in the
thread for cooperating w/the cops in a questionable situation. Civil
disobedience is one thing but any other imagined crime can make them
quite unreasonble and intimidating and just the act of being 'detained'
for a while let alone handcuffed rightly scares the shit out of most
people.

Hayden

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 292 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: hayden (Hugh Appet)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 15:31:36 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> I hate it when I thought that I had something tosay, and then well, forgot
> it. Oh well. Yeah, I think that racism is on the up in this nation,
> especially in regards to law enforcement. The Rodney King incident is a
> special one because it is documented. That sort of thing, perhaps not to
> the same extent, happens daily even here in Minneapolis. Every sing
> african-american friend that I have has a story about being harassed and
> even beaten by a police officer, just for being there. There are strong
> and deep stereotypes about certain segments of our society, and when there
> isn't a camera on or a witness willing to testify, the shit just goes
> unnoticed.
>
> I guess I did have something to say after all.
>
I suppose this is getting off the subject of hacking. Didn't this thread
start somewhere w/the 2600 thing and the Sun Devil trials? The real point
IMHO, is that the police can tend to see anyone as the enemy and despite
so called Constitutional protections they can and will abuse their power
in subtle and not subtle ways.
What was the damm point about carrying ID anyway?

Hayden

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 293 of 447
Subject: Re: Required IDs..
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 16:33:11 EST

>
> Well, there are still towns in which you will get a fine, or be arrested
> for jay walking, loitering, and spitting in the street. Hell, not long
> ago they were giving fines in New York for spitting in the street!

In 1990 I got a jaywalking ticket in Washington, DC. Not a small town if
I do say so.

As for the ID thing, someone who has access to Lexis/Nexis please look it
up! I know there is (was?) a law that required you to present ID to an
officer, if you had it. Possibly Terry v. Minnesota (?)

-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 294 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 16:46:13 EST

dsharp (david sharp) writes:

>
> >In NYC...<,
> ... when was the last time you saw someone get a ticket
> for running a red light, speeding on Broadway, urinating or
> defecating in the street? How about arrested for breaking into
> an apartment or for any number of 'little crimes' ? My point
> being that NYC is a bad example for yr argument. Our governments
> can't require an ID because they don't issue you one. They don't issue IDs
> because they can't afford it and are incapable of managing such a project.
> In NYC there are
> thousands of illegal immigrants collecting welfare or
> Social Security because the governments are unable to
> cross check lists. Any confidence you may have that you have certain
> 'rights' in this society is unfounded

I said it was a law, I didn't say that it was enforced. Find out about
the vagrency laws.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 295 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 18:17:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <qBiwXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

This, boys and girls, is why threading should include a feature for
moderators to move the bulk of a conversation to another arena... like
politics, let's say. Whatever.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 296 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 18:34:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <XoZuXB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

funny thing is that this is all talking place under the cyber sapce heading
where in cyber space you chose your own race
fuck for all i knwo
drow really is an elf

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 297 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 18:56:48 EST
In-Reply-To: <RcNwXB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hotblack, drow really is an elf.
obviously, the convergence of the medieval and the cyberpunk cultures
is nearly complete, soon the drag0n may also emerge from a ley line in
Ontario, where the wizard Martek foresaw this event just before the
djinn accidentally stepped on he and set, who were having coffee at the
time. mordenkainen played spock's stand in in five of teh six movies.
fuck for all i knwo
hotblack really is the leader of disaster area

: drow :

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 298 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 23:59:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <DDowXB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hmmmm ... moving the discussion to Politics ... sounds good to me (said
the Politics forum moderator ;)

Re: Everyone gets harassed -- I *know* over 20 cops in my city (which is
probably 15-20% of the total), and even I get approached or pulled over,
questioned, et cetera. My benefit is that I can drop a name or tow, use
police jargon, &tc. Gotta be quick and adaptable, chummer!

One of the main reasons police harass people (or, rather, one of the
reasons they can JUSTIFY harassing people) is "probable cause" ... if they
have reason to suspect you're off to commit a crime (or just have),
they'll stop ya. Cop an attitude, they'll hose you. [unless you have big
cajones and know their supervisor <grin!!>]
If we get back to basdic human rights, and decriminalize "crimes" with no
victims, cops will lose a goodly protion of their "cause" for probable cause.

Remember: You can't have a police state without police!

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 299 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 13:24:55 EST

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> Remember: You can't have a police state without police!

Remember: You can't have a police state without a state!

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 300 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 13:30:16 EST

simonm (Simon Moon) writes:

> chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:
>
> > Remember: You can't have a police state without police!
>
> Remember: You can't have a police state without a state!

Remember: You can't have a police state without state police!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 301 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 13:45:43 EST

delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes:

> dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:
>
> > I'm a detective novelist based in the Silicon Valley -- been writing
> > and researching a new novel I've been working on for the past couple
> > of months and while the bulk of the novel is done, I'm making another
>
>
> Oh please. You are not a "P.I." Any P.I. worth his wieght in shit knows
> how to do everything you just asked about.

Yo Alf... Take a chill pill and take some time reading posts
you're so willing to contend.

I never said I was a "P.I." -- I stated, quite clearly I thought,
that I was RESEARCHING a detective novel which I'm WRITING. Folk've
been more than gracious with their information and I'm thankful.

Relax, Alf...

de-x

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 302 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 16:09:15 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:
> > Oh please. You are not a "P.I." Any P.I. worth his wieght in shit knows
> > how to do everything you just asked about.
>
>
> Yo Alf... Take a chill pill and take some time reading posts
> you're so willing to contend.
>
> I never said I was a "P.I." -- I stated, quite clearly I thought,
> that I was RESEARCHING a detective novel which I'm WRITING. Folk've
> been more than gracious with their information and I'm thankful.
>
> Relax, Alf...
>
> de-x

Sorry, I've been under alot of stress.
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 303 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 18:08:59 EST

delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes:

>
> Sorry, I've been under alot of stress.
>

Yeah, well, do it again and I'll sic my Chihuahua on you -- and he'll
hump you leg. So there. :)

d-ex

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 304 of 447
Subject: Re: Bad attitudes.
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 18:25:43 EST

> fuck for all i knwo
> hotblack really is the leader of disaster area

i wish i had that much money that i would need
to be dead for a year

i would try to get the subject back to hacking
but i spent all my high school years
acting too cool just being around people
who got arrested in stead of going out and getting arrested myself

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 305 of 447
Subject: Re: Required IDs..
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 19:29:50 EST

Yes, I meant to say rogue, but my connection to mindvox is too slow for
me to do much editing.. I know that this is a "1950's"
type of crime, and that no one is charged with it anymore.. much.. but I
had a friend that was threatened with it, and it just goes to prove that
innocent does not mean safe.. so you can be nailed on charges like this
if the policeman does not like you or has a chip on his shoulder. Of
course a police man will atch flak for hassling an ethnic person, a
homeless person, or a member of a group that is going to mess with the
agency they are from (such as 2600) but no one is going to care if you
pull a teenager wearing a leather jacket and carrying chains and
possessing drugs off the street and beat his ass (he resisted arrest
though.. will be the excuse..) and harrass him .. unless they find out he
is the son (or she is the daughter) of a diplomat or something like that.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 306 of 447
Subject: Re: Required IDs..
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 19:39:01 EST

WTF is up with there being no more [re]ply, only [fo]llow-up? argh.

Anyway, no, I'm not a lawyer, but I had a friend that went through a
situation like that, and I am interested in law, so I payed attention to
what went on legally.

Anyway, yes, the point is very valid that the law difers from state to
state, and the cahnces are that you could get away with something in one
state in front of a cop that in another state you would be investiagted
and tracked down just for being suspected of doing the same thing.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 307 of 447
Subject: choose-your-own-race: I choose human.
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 19:43:22 EST
In-Reply-To: <DDowXB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The thing about being able to pick your own race in Cyberspace is not
valid, because Cyberspace crimes are (when prosecuted) prosecuted by real
cops in real space with real eyes that see your real race.
Unfortunately.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 308 of 447
Subject: Requiring IDs
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 19:45:22 EST
In-Reply-To: <Z7kyXB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Welp, today at school we got the announcement that they're requiring that
IDs be carried at all times, which isn't *too* bad, except that when they
take them away, they have you give them 5 bucks to make another.

Punishment for not having said ID is Saturday School (great memories of
Breakfast Club arize here) or an Inhouse or something vague and generally
unwarrarented.

So, Thug, I'll be taking you advice anbd burning off my fingerprints to
spite the school. (nonono, j/k)

What was really funny was this morning, I walked into the school and the
Rent-A-Cop is walking down the stairs holding his donuts and coffee,
atleast, I think he was. Coffee, that I'm sure of. Stereotyping says
donuts, too. Anyways, he was holding that, going into one of the lounges,
and I walk by and I could see it in his eyes "Go 'head, say something.."
and so I did.. "Good Morning". Of course, you all realize tha I am but a
lowly high school studfent and my perceptions are probably screwed up
anyways...

|:- Wanna fight about it?! (grin) -:|
|:- nihilis@phantom.com -:|
|:- Joel Boutros -:|

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 309 of 447
Subject: Re: Simple Tracing
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 00:11:47 EST

dexter (M. Lawrence Lopp) writes:

> delafe (Alfredo De La Fe) writes:
>
> >
> > Sorry, I've been under alot of stress.
> >
>
> Yeah, well, do it again and I'll sic my Chihuahua on you -- and he'll
> hump you leg. So there. :)
>
> d-ex

hehe... You have a chihuahua too?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 310 of 447
Subject: On being hassled
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 05:44:57 EST

Ah, perfect example of being hassled .. happened MINUTES ago!

As a computer operator where I work, I am expected to go outside and check
other parts of the building I'm in (working) as well as a classroom in an
adjacent building. It's a graveyard shift sorta thing.

So, I hop out, dressed in dark sweat pants, and my leather jacket,
carrying my 4-D cell MagLite. Bear in mind, I'm 6'2" and about 190 lbs.

I'm walking to the adjacent building, after checking 'mine'. I notice,
from the corner of my eye, someone loitering around the coffee machine.
Probably watching me. So, I check the doorknobs of the room, to make sure
they're locked. The guy starts walking in my direction.

Now, theoretically, I should have my gun (my .45) It's in violation of the
Penal Code to do so, but the Code violated Amendment 2 [any further
discussion is welcomed on Social: Politics on RKBA] One might draw the
conclusion that I therefore carry 'illegally' ...
In any case, I was unarmed, save my MagLite. I'm thinking that if I close
to 5 yards or less, I can rush him if he gets funny, pound the crap out of
him, and then call the campus cops (I carry my cell phone most everywhere).

At just 5 yards, he says, "You work here?"
"Yes."
"Where?"
"Third floor."
"What do you do?"
"Computer operator"
About now, I'm thinking he's a fuck'n weirdo. My MagLite's beggin to crack
another jaw.
He pulls from his jacket pocket something ... I'm watching his expression
as he asks, "Got any ID?"
He's holding a badge.
Then I realize who it is. Keith. Young officer. Looks like an older young
student (like me) (Maybe 'coz we're both born in the second half of the 60's!)

We chat, catch up on things, bitch and moan about how much graveyards suck.

Thinking about it, he acted pretty well. No draw, no nasty demand of ID
(he recognized me when we stepped a little closer)(we were intorduced at
the firing range by the firearms sergeant)(and guess who shoots better ;)

He was pretty civil about the whole thing. And I didn't mind being bugged
too much.

Any body else? D'ya think he was being fair, not fascist?
Or just typical campus "pussy" cop? [a theory I don't subscribe to]

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 311 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 09:29:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <mPR7XB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

you are a small guy....

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 312 of 447
Subject: Re: FTP
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 21:50:55 EST

redeye (Sigmund Obispo) writes:

> Besides wuarchive, can anyone recommend interesting sites to peruse
> though for dos binaries?
>
> redeye

That depends on what you're looking for. I spend a good two or
three hours every couple of days setting up ftp to look over what's new
out there. If the place where you posted your question was a hint, then
I'm sure someone here will be able to help you more than I can, since i
don't have pirate ftp sites for binaries, but I know that there isn't a
lack of them or anything like that ;)

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 313 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 17:35:06 EST
In-Reply-To: <7527XB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

yo stated your size.. you are a tiny man

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 314 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 93 19:51:06 EST

netw1z (Ama ama) writes:

> yo stated your size.. you are a tiny man
>

6'2" 190 is tiny?

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 315 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 93 10:19:39 EST
In-Reply-To: <VVu8XB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That's a small guy...

netw1z / NPE ?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 316 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 93 14:06:34 EST
In-Reply-To: <g4y9XB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

So "buster", how big is big?

(is that like "why ask why?"?)

Maybe I'll have to start posting my shooting quals with the local PD ...
just to save my ego ...

... or I'll have to bench 350 ...

Having fun with size ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 317 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 93 10:24:10 EST

deadboy (The Dead) writes:

> > yo stated your size.. you are a tiny man
> >
>
> 6'2" 190 is tiny?

I'm 6'2" and 390... I'm BEEEEEG!!

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez, MS-DOS Enthusiast !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@infoserv.com carlos@dorsai.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@phantom.com FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 318 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 93 10:32:18 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZyTayB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Big is MOD!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 319 of 447
Subject: Re: On being hassled
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 93 21:08:41 EST
In-Reply-To: <JcuayB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

oy vey!

New point of discussion ...

If someone leaves their system open (up), and you dial in (if they're
running ARA or something, no password set), and look around, is it a crime?

[yeah, I can guess what most of us think on this one ...]

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 320 of 447
Subject: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 93 08:34:25 EST
In-Reply-To: <7sNByB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

did i scare you?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 321 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 93 08:36:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <3JJcyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

All these folks talking about hacking and yet..
not a hacker among you..
If i read another posst from you
leeches , killer cracker using
card abuse, code dialing,
board calling , .edusite inet
account crackers post anpother
annoying thing i will laugh
again becase you are laughing
stock..
then.. there was the outsiders looking in who think
they know.. thisisnt a snide remark but sudeenly bruce sterling
wrote a book andnow thinks he is (wellnot thinks.. everyone else thinks
this too) he is an expert on "hacking" and the "underground"
no true practionerof this clandestine art has really come forward
if they do.. it usually is some old timer who is completely out of
touch with what is ot t out thier now..
Rhetoric!#@
tons of cool thingshave happened and can stillhappen..
but only by the few..
the few ..
never have so many been so terrorized by so few..
sure.. people say hacking is dead.. the balance disrupted de
due to the busts of the hackers responsible for
the "trickle-down theory" (which isbasically what the PUBLIC underground
works on fortythe casual hackers)
and technology advances which allowfor clear digital monitoring and call
tracing..
but the truth is there will always be someone there
to answer the challangee..

but it certainly isnt ANY of you!#@

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 322 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 93 13:03:42 EST
In-Reply-To: <LNJcyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

maybe not scare ... just make curious ... and thoughtful ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 323 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 93 21:24:07 EST

netw1z (Ama ama) writes:

> All these folks talking about hacking and yet..
> not a hacker among you..
> If i read another posst from you
> leeches , killer cracker using
> card abuse, code dialing,
> board calling , .edusite inet
> account crackers post anpother
> annoying thing i will laugh
> again becase you are laughing
> stock..
> then.. there was the outsiders looking in who think
> they know.. thisisnt a snide remark but sudeenly bruce sterling
> wrote a book andnow thinks he is (wellnot thinks.. everyone else thinks
..stuff deleted..
> but the truth is there will always be someone there
> to answer the challangee..
>
> but it certainly isnt ANY of you!#@

I'd say Toxic, Inhuman, at least 5
others who have posted here qualify as
being real hackers and as being at least
partially active right now.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 324 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 93 09:33:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <w7iDyB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

bleh.. they dont know how to do anythingmajor.. they laymen... often
referred to as lamers..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 325 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 93 15:12:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <4ygeyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

my, my, my, netw1z ...

down on Toxy, Inhuman, and lex ... you wouldn't have a big ego, or
attitude by chance, would ya ???

<grin>

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 326 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 93 17:39:24 EST

netw1z (Ama ama) writes:

> bleh.. they dont know how to do anythingmajor.. they laymen... often
> referred to as lamers..

'Tis always the ego that makes a man do stupid things and lose.
believe what you want about me, and the others you were refering to, and
I will remain a lamer in your eyes. But if you remove your head from
your ass and use those eyes, you will see that the ones mentioned tend to
post interesting, informed posts, and not boast about accomplishments, be
they made, dreamed op or pretend. Especially when those boasts become
obnoxious 'Im better than everyone in the world' rants. Im sick of
hackers trying to prove themselves by being better than the next guy. the
only person you are impressing is the person who is ignorant to the ways
of hacking. It doesn't mean two shits to anyone worth impressing.

-Tox
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 327 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 93 22:35:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <Dg4eyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Netw1z, if you weren't such a powerful hacker, capable of ruining my life,
and didn't have me in your thrall, I might suggest that you chill the fuck
out and try to do something constructive.

OK, learning how things work is constructive, but walking around with your
virtual dick hanging out, talking about "you r all lamerz!" sure the fuck
isn't. Might I suggest trying to program something interesting, or figure
out a way to give people better access to more information, or changing the
stupid policies of the government.

However, since you're so cool, obviously none of this applies to _you_.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 328 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 09:16:48 EST
In-Reply-To: <w6gFyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Your right.. i actually am tooooocool for that.. bleh

i do more in a day then ]-- than you'll ever see in
a lifetime...
i know it''s hard for you to understand.. but you'll just have
to belive me on thisone..

i've seen t stuff thatwouldmake you shit green.. and cry..
I've seen stuff that would make you run out in the street
and yell "The Hypcrosiy.. the h7umanity of it all.."
and I have seen things that would make you feel INVINCIBLE against the
world infusoing you with awe and a sense of power...
the sheer magnitude of it all g would come to be my downfall...

it was tr00ly an amazing thing.. and yet still the saga could continue..
f fou fortunately.. none of you will have to make the descion i had to
make.. it has permanently changed me
not really for the better..

and yet.. i wouldnt go back to ignorance for anything in the world...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 329 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 09:23:04 EST
In-Reply-To: <PuagyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

i have to address simon moon's silly comment...
program something interesting? i have done that plenty of times.. whats
my motivation to share it with you?
i na have figured out a way to have acdcess to almostall information
stored on computers... whats my motivation have .. after years to
developmy techniques?
motivation to share with you or anyone else fo that matter? so yo u can
inform the authorities? so you can $CASH$ in on someone else hard work..
illegallyi might add? Or just take a easy ride to things not meant for
you to see or do? Or just put you hands on it? (as a wise man once said..
too many cooks sppooil the soup)
all you grubby hands on it? I think not.. I dont think i am capabale of
judging who should know what..
so instead.. i just sit on it and thr inaction i just wait and see what
happens.. you go out and work hard and find ot out things for yourself..
you silly little man

and as for changing the policies of the government? blehh./. i f voted
for clinton.. perot owns EdS.. orn used to anyways...
wheww they pu...bleh..
chaing policies.. how do you change policies wh on something that is
fundamentally wrong in the terms of a capatilist society whose rules
demand a certain level of privacy for it's citizens?

silly little man..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 330 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 11:47:55 EST
In-Reply-To: <65agyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

... I am beyond their timid, lying morality ...
- Cpt. Willard
_Apocalypse Now_

Fnord!
- Guess who ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 331 of 447
Subject: ?
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 14:20:34 EST
In-Reply-To: <kuHgyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

look im a lamer when it comes to computers..
and?
i dont think that any one wants to be netwh1z (i kinda like that spelling)
i mean it doesnt even sound like netw1z wants to be netw1z
anmd i really dont think anyone wnats to make money
deals or anything

i like the study of knowledge more than knowledge itself 9 times out of 10
(unless of course it has something to do with karenna gore :)

personally i dont want to spend my life being paranoid that people
are out to get me, i mean i already am, but im pretty sure
its insubstantial
so you go live your life and ill live mine
and lets see whos happier

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 332 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: simms (Mark Kern)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 14:26:24 EST
In-Reply-To: <kuHgyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I though "real" hackers didn't come forth and risk their notoriety
getting them into trouble. Or did I misread netw1z's post?

-=Simms=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 333 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 16:32:49 EST
In-Reply-To: <P7ogyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

netw1z (Man am I cool or what?) writes:

> [what's my] motivation to share with you or anyone else fo[r] that matter?

Well, for one thing, maybe people would take you seriously; this "i do
more in a day [...] than you'll ever see in a lifetime..." bullshit
doesn't impress me, or many other people here, I'd wager.

Throughout my lifetime I plan on (and already have) acomplished a number
of things, most of them taking place in a social context where they can
effect other people in a beneficial way. It's not clear you've done that
at all, much less every day. And you obviously want to interact with other
people, otherwise you'd just shut up and go away, instead of prancing
around like a bored six year old who wants some attention. So why not try
to do something cool to get our attention: how about redirecting
$1,000,000 from the campaign chest of the party of your choice to feed the
homeless, or whatever. Then we'll all be impressed by your skills; untill
then, you sound like a whining egotistical snot.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 334 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 17:47:16 EST

simms (Mark Kern) writes:

> I though "real" hackers didn't come forth and risk their notoriety
> getting them into trouble. Or did I misread netw1z's post?
>
> -=Simms=-
>

THey don't, and you read it correctly.

-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 335 of 447
Subject: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: asyd (Dave Machin)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 18:04:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <HHygyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

"... phiber, how do we break into switches so we can can annoy people and
act like 6 year olds"

next lesson: puckering up when you kiss ass!

I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used
to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even
bothered to respond.

The way you're acting only makes everything erikb ever said look that much
more like the truth.

Whatever erikb did, I haven't seen anybody act like netw1z who has made it
past 6th grade.

I'm starting ot think that everything said about MOD in the media isn't
far from the truth, netw1z is convincing me more with every post.

"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

--<Asyd Trip>--
(For the great Syd Barrett)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 336 of 447
Subject: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 20:57:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <maZgyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hacking secretsof MOD reveals? the press acountsof MOD being "full of
attitude".. "blackhearted" , racial dirverse" , "talented" , "intelligent
hoolums from delapidated backgrounds"
might all have aring of truth.. beyond that.. inclding whatever they
thhink MoD stands for is all wrong.. everything.. names , ages
alleged crimes , and various other things aremisrepresented facts..
but then.. who cares.. once it is in print.. no one bothers to look
beyond the facsade of what jourlanlist say..
(note: erikb is a journalism major)... except maybe.. real hackers.. who
knnow the truth from the hyprcrosiy.. and bother to think for
themselves.
isn instead of what ? being told what to think..
notoriety.. is just plain a old fun.. to deny it is to invalid ate
ganster movies and james dean and the fonz... rebels... against the
grain.... either it comes naturally... or it doesnt..
all that will follow are pale imitations
i think you misread it.. it's easy scine i havent posted coherentlyfor a
while now..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 337 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 20:54:53 EST

asyd (Dave Machin) writes:

>
> "... phiber, how do we break into switches so we can can annoy people and
> act like 6 year olds"

Shit.... with friends like these who needs enemies :)

> I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used
> to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even
> bothered to respond.

Netw1z is doing what he always does in IRC, baits people and tries to get
them angry so MOD can have another elite war with somebody. Except Netw1z
is usually funny and arguing with people who claim to be top level elite
hackers, here he's being rude to people who don't make any of those
claims or don't care. Mostly I think he's trying to get Bloodaxe to say
something stupid and respond to him.
Either way if he really is netw1z then he's going to jail soon unless he's
one of the only 3 who didn't plead guilty already. That's enough to make
anyone be in a bad mood.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 338 of 447
Subject: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 21:18:23 EST

I am a whining egotistical snot..
but i happen to know alot...i wish i could tell everything
but life lives are at stake..
ali baba is very perceptive... moreso then alot of tunnelvision text file
reading LOD worshipping blind little sheep who cant think for themselves
and will never be on a DmS-100!#@

nEtw1z!#@

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 339 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 21:18:46 EST
In-Reply-To: <767gyB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

After talking to netw1z online just now I'm pleased to say I was at least
half right about what I wrote before :) He didn't act a lot like his
posts, I think he's just posting to see who will respond to his baiting
and hoping its Bloodaxe.

One to one Netw1z is a cool guy. And he didn't even threaten me or
anything! ;)

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 340 of 447
Subject: Funniest thing ..
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 23:08:12 EST

And we all get up-in-arms over netw1z ...

I'm glad I can still laugh at myself.

Despite my belief in the power of information, remember one thing:
anyone willing to sacrifice themselves is quite a potent weapon --
consider previous (real & would-be) Presidential Assassins ...

Consider a hacker who wasn't too concerned about being caught, just doing
maxiumum damage in a limited time ...

"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won by
making the other poor, dumb bastard die for his."

"It is a good day to die."

"My life for freedom."

"If I'm gonna die for a word, my word is 'POON-TANG'!"

(Patton/anon./USN SEALs/Full Metal Jacket).

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 341 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 93 23:09:25 EST
In-Reply-To: <Z08gyB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, heh. All I know is that when I first went "national", calling
around the BBS scene, LOD was supposed to be the up and coming group of
young studs, but - just like the rest of us - they were all punks. We
were all punks. Some of us were just talking shit. No. No, most of us
were just talking shit. A few people did the grunt work, got the info,
and the rest of us coerced that info from said grunts by being good
bullshitters. On mosy of the supposed p/h boards you had maybe a half
dozen people who were doing the "cool" stuff, and about sixty users who
kissed ass. I was one of the latter. Most of us weren't curious abot
hacking systems. Most of us just wanted to be cool; we just wanted to
be accepted SOMEWHERE. Getting busted, or getting your name in some punk
newsletter like Phrack was COOL, 'cause then people had heard of you. It
all boils down to the same common denominator: adolescent crap. A lot of
preening and prancing. Once, a long time ago, I was in a conference call
with LOD, and they were just a bunch of high school kids who liked to call
up two operators on an Alliance telecon and have them talk to each other:
"AT&T Operator." "No, THIS is the AT&T Operator." Things like that.
PUNKS. But people grow up, and GROW OUT of those things. Other punks
come to fill the void. All this LOD/MOD shit is hype. It amounts to a
lot of immature people doing immature things, and getting caught.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 342 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: delafe (Alfredo De La Fe)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 03:02:53 EST

alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:

> After talking to netw1z online just now I'm pleased to say I was at least
> half right about what I wrote before :) He didn't act a lot like his
> posts, I think he's just posting to see who will respond to his baiting
> and hoping its Bloodaxe.
>
> One to one Netw1z is a cool guy. And he didn't even threaten me or
> anything! ;)
>
>
>
> $%$%$%$%$%$%$%
> ($) Ali Baba ($)
> %$%$%$%$%$%$%$

Blahhh... This hacker bonding is getting me sick.
As for hacking secrets, anyone that spends so many hours in front of a
monitor (Or B/W TV for that matter) can acomplish exactly what MOD has
accomplished. All it takes is: Time, patience, an I.Q. of more then an
avocado, and more time. It is not what you "get", it is what you
understand. "Hacking" is stupid, or at least what alot of the snot nosed
kids have come to know as hacking. Hacking is the search for knowledge,
and knowledge is power. (Which get's to certain peoples heads)
If I knew then, what I know now I would have saved myself QUITE a
bit of trouble. I have ONE question to ask Netwiz:

Was it worth it?

If the answer to that question is yes, then I have truely OVER-ESTIMATED
him. Because I for one, although I never was Mr. Super-dooper Hacker, with
an attitude, I know that it was not. I have learned now, in less then 1
month more about computers, C, UNIX, and networks then I EVER did while
"Hacking" or dealing with "Hackers". Which just goes to prove that it is
possible.

Al!

Alfredo De La Fe'
(212)-721-7601 delafe@mindvox.phantom.com

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 343 of 447
Subject: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 07:41:23 EST
In-Reply-To: <i8NHyB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

1) to delafe.. iwould justlike to say that yes..
it was worth it.. it would be worth it a thousand times over..
you couldnt possible understand with all your minor 2-bit hacks and trw
/inet/cbi account trading..
what is really out there...

rehahshing old OUTDATAD.(outdateed) quotes and quips and wives tales
chrome sync does not a renaissance man make..

ozone obviously was one of the grunts and has no ideza what anyone is
talking about.. ab and to lumop LOD and MOD in the same categorie.. well
that simply is impossible...
but then again.. no one here seemsto know exactly what mod is..
and then yet still again.. it probably isnt all thta important ..
it really is quite silly actually..
but that doesnt change the fact.. that i av have seen more than any of
you second rate hackers.. all you second rate journalist trying to make a
quick buck off our backs all dont really get the point yet either..
when the truth comes out..you will all be smacked dumbfoundded...
thats when the second hacker revolution will start... fueled from the
death of a martry.. a mighty phoneix wi which. well..kinda con trolled a
nation..

netw1z!#@

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 344 of 447
Subject: DuH!#@
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 07:49:27 EST
In-Reply-To: <o41HyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

that times article is completely erroneous.. richard behar is supposed
to be an investigative reporter..
he scks

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 345 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 09:18:11 EST
In-Reply-To: <o41HyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

what? delafe and ozone get mention and i don't? i guess i'll just have
to be more insulting and juvenile, but then my post might be mistaken for
yours, eh? maria mother of nick-at-nite, even chrmsync? i'm wounded
d00d, really i am...

when what truth comes out? that the universe is ruled by a bunch of
penguins with pituitary problems? that the vice president is actually
a babtist nun who strips in front of the press cameras while nobody's
looking? we KNOW all this already, just like we know that you're going
to get the shit beat out of you the next time you don't give jimmy hansen
your lunch money when he corners you at the tire swing.

mod? isn't that an amiga file format? who are you calling second rate?
d00d, i'm non-rate. the cellular networks of america are going to be
screwed in a few years as bandwidth density goes up, frequency management
is a foreign language out there right now because everybody still seems
to think that the earth is flat, you can reduce the size of a cell and
insert a new cell without regard to local topology and land use and their
effects on propagation loss. do whatever the fuck you want, but don't
expect applause from me if all you're doing it for is yourself.

<+> d r o w <+> :%: #central_core :%: lair of team caffeine! :%:
<+> are you normal <+> :%: bits dance to a pkk jam in the matrix... :%:

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 346 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 14:22:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <1k6HyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That cyberpunk gibberish? save that shit of timothy leary and william
giboson and the well.
thats the new "nerdspeak"

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 347 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 93 15:07:42 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZoJiyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Feh!

Bring back hotblack.

... and classic quotes are just as valid ... unless you wanna go "bleeding
edge" ... "nerdspeak"

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 348 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 08:31:07 EST
In-Reply-To: <JRLiyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

BTW:
drow could easily recieve a punch in the face.. in the face of trth or
adversity.. p resorting to psyps
psyihcal stuff is a limited persons reaction..
but i assure you.. to engage in fisticuffs with me little boy
is not what you wanna do.. ill knocmk those glasses of yor face so fast..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 349 of 447
Subject: Re: ?
Keywords: netwh1z
Summary: nitw1t runs his mouth some more
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 08:49:21 EST
In-Reply-To: <k3XJyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

ooh tickety-boo, i get mentioned. i mean, if you're going to bait,
then don't phuck around, just bait. 'fisticuffs'? who talks like
that? 'hey! i was hot, and i was hungry, ok?' should ring a bell
with nitwhelp? these young whippersnappers these daze, they've
forgotten the only TR00 R00L of hacking... which i would reprint
here except i seem to have forgotten it. it may have been in one
of the phracks, though... and the para-ordnance p12.45 really is
a very nice handgun. but i don't wish it, or any violence, on
netw1t. i just hope that he finds faith in god and the warm,
embracing, sensual, slowly thrusting love of jesus christ our
lord and salsa. grok him.

now then, in an attempt to return this phorum to it's rightful and
earned place in the hierarchy of phorums, i pose the question:
is it ethical to murder a fellow hacker? even if he's being an ass?
please answer the question in complete sentences and try not to
wander off into the subject of "if clinton is afraid his dick is
too small maybe he should get it pierced?"

23/_e3+4as1g

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 350 of 447
Subject: Re: ?
Keywords: netwh1z
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 09:09:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <ywyJyB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Anybody recall what Steven Segal said (of challengers)?:

"I'll fight anybody to the death."
Well, I'm not *that* big on the subject, but it *would* be fun to see
diarrhea mouth (it runs on and on and on) in a tussle ...

And Doug, I qualify pistol for L.A.P.D. S.W.A.T. (.45 Springfield Armory,
carried cocked-and-locked) -- but .308 at 600 meters is more efficient.

<putting the virtual penis back in his pants> ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 351 of 447
Subject: Totally off the subject
Keywords: netwh1z
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 20:39:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <BVZJyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I don't mean to post anything that doesn't belong here or anything
like that, but I think in the new regime with the changeoever to multiple
machines and leased lines and things it might be nice if MindVox added a
.kill file so people you don't want to hear from will be removed from the
read listing.

Secondly I heard that the sentencing of the 4 arrested during the PumpCon
raid in November is over. R.S. pleaded guilty to disordely conduct and
was fined $200 which included two HST modems, clothes, most of his disks
and a portable computer were returned. He was also subpoened to appear at
the trials of two other people who are likely to be charged with felony
counts. RS has immunity and cannot plead the fifth if he is called as a
witness.

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 352 of 447
Subject: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: netw1z (Ama ama)
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 93 23:52:27 EST
In-Reply-To: <4sVkyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Pumpmpcon.. a buunch of nerdy looser posers getting together and getting
drunk and listening to thier heavy metal musak and techno..
how f'ing dry.... i am sure he can afford another portable..
oh my.. hwere will he store his VMb lists and phracks now?
bleh

talk of guns? what a waste of time..does my presence and words affect you
that much? that pleases me..
but yo will know that a psycical battle bwetween us is improbable..
and yes.. it is ei ethical to be an ass.. and i begrudge youuur assinine
behavoir.. bleh..!#@

i could crush you with a thought and hurt you and feel nothing..
but your childish bravado and nerdy talk of guns impresses no one..
drow ..
word
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 353 of 447
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 00:49:57 EST
In-Reply-To: <5P5kyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

netw1z... i have but 2 words for you:

n e d p h i s h

-3drow word!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 354 of 447
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 02:15:23 EST

netw1z (Ama ama) writes:

> Pumpmpcon.. a buunch of nerdy looser posers getting together and getting
> drunk and listening to thier heavy metal musak and techno..

Like MOD you mean?

> how f'ing dry.... i am sure he can afford another portable..
> oh my.. hwere will he store his VMb lists and phracks now?
> bleh
>
> talk of guns? what a waste of time..does my presence and words affect you
> that much? that pleases me..

Of course it does, why else take so much effort to be annoying.

> i could crush you with a thought and hurt you and feel nothing..
Be sure to mention that to the court appointed psychiatrist, I'm sure
they'll take off at least a year of your sentence.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 355 of 447
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 11:17:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <ccBLyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

If I weren't such an advocate of free speech ...

(tho', actually, this is a private forum, so such an arrogant existance
could be expunged).

Phiber once spoke of people like wh1z. It wasn't very kind.

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 356 of 447
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 11:31:16 EST
In-Reply-To: <DF1LyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

yeah, let's hire thug to do a little make-up and switcheroo job with wh1z
and phiber! bring back phiber! hell, at least the d00d made sense, knew
something about the moon. what do YOU know about the moon, wh1z? i hope
that it's nothing as lame as 'it's made of green cheese', cause everybody
knows that it's orange cheese, the red is filtered out by the atmosphere.

- dr0w -

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 357 of 447
Subject: Re: Hacking secrets of MOD revealed!
From: marauder (The Marauder)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 17:03:32 EST

> I for one never cared that much for either LOD or MOD, whatever lod used
> to be like all of them look like they call here, none of them have even
> bothered to respond.
>

Hahaha.. Why bother responding at all? netwiz/corrupt seems fully able to
respond for himself, besides he's amusing..

-marauder

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 358 of 447
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 17:08:17 EST
In-Reply-To: <T31LyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Phiber...

Well he was at least as arrogant as netw1z, but at least he had a reason
to be. He did know his shit (and presumably still does) and furthermore,
Mark made sense when he posted (or talked for that matter.) and he
doesn't piss me off.
N1twhit on the other hand is different. I havent heard one thing out of
his keyboard that I could believe, and every last post irritates me. A
.kill file would be helpful. Seeing that I haven't met him face to face
I cant talk about how he 'really is' but at least behind that alias, I
deem him to be a fop.
No... netwiz, redeem yourself. Post something believeable (and none of
this 'I go more places everyday than you will ever go') and post it
coherently, and Ill send you a picture of me inside a local PAC*BELL site
with my (real, not virtual) fingers on the switching system.

-T

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 359 of 447
Subject: Re: !!
Keywords: netwh1z
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 18:18:45 EST

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> If I weren't such an advocate of free speech ...
>
> (tho', actually, this is a private forum, so such an arrogant existance
> could be expunged).
>
> Phiber once spoke of people like wh1z. It wasn't very kind.

When Phiber speaks about anything it isn't very kind :) The funny thing is
MOD runs around making so much noise yet whenever I've exchanged any words
with Phiber in IRC his own comments were there is no MOD, MOD was a bunch
of morons except for him and Scorpion. And reading the discussions that
went on about MOD when they were first arrainged the only reason all of
them are always in trouble is because idiots who are functionally
illiterate and act like their whole education came from a comic book
(that's netw1z or should I say Corrupt-John) couldn't handle not being
pests and bothering Bloodaxe.

In a lot of ways I'm starting to see the governments point of view, even
if Phiber never did anything illegal like he always says, he set off all
these other morons who would have been mugging little old ladies or
selling crack or something instead of getting arrested for selling credit
cards and breaking into switches. Without him none of MOD would know how
to do anything, even phiber agreed with that.

Before this I used to think that there were two sides to every story and
some of what happened was Erik Bloodaxe's fault but I'm starting to see
that probably it wasn't.

Wouldn't it be funny if someone mailed all these messages Corrupt has posted
to the prosecuter? :)

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 360 of 447
Subject: 'lo all
Keywords: netwh1z
From: sylvie (Sharon Dillon)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 20:30:02 EST
In-Reply-To: <yXJmyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Phiber is a punk but he knows what he's doing. I wouldn't ever
begrudge him that. As a retired hacker, I look on what has happened to
the scene and sigh. It really has deterioted with ever kid and a code
calling himself a cyberpunk. Very few are worthy of the title.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 361 of 447
Subject: Re: 'lo all
Keywords: netwh1z
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 21:27:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <R1PmyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, as far as being called a grunt, yeah, I fully admit it.

I have never hacked anything. So what?

I don't get off on the "how cool things used to be" deal, though. That
schtuff is just, well, unproductive.

And Netweenie, it really isn't a case of you pissing me off. It is just
that you make me laugh. I mean, really, sincerely laugh. You come off as
in too much of a hurry to let everyone know how tough you are. Modern
Mutant would not be amused.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 362 of 447
Subject: Re: 'lo all
Keywords: netwh1z
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 93 22:51:33 EST
In-Reply-To: <R1PmyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Know what I like about MOD? All the press are saying these days that MOD
is really ethnically diverse 'n' multicultural, and that's really cool. A
great TV show would be to get all of MOD together in a Manhattan flat,
like they did on MTV with the two girls, two guys and whatever else the
cat dragged in. And each week, we could have about a half-hour of this
pseudo-hip point-of-view steadicam footage of real l1ve MOD members doing
what they do best, which is to help humanity and to crusade for First
Amendment rights whenever convenient. And they could call the show
The MOD Squad.

-3j

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 363 of 447
Subject: Re: 'lo all
Keywords: netwh1z
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 02:43:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <mkwmyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

3jane: good idea. I bet NBC drafts nitw1t for the role of the evil hacker,
tho. He has the kinda "raving idiot/mad scientist" quality that TV loves to
use. And hey, you don't have to be able to actually _do_ anything to get
on TV, you just need lots of attitude. Sounds like nitw1t to me.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 364 of 447
Subject: John.
Keywords: netwh1z
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 09:04:42 EST
In-Reply-To: <La8myB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

John:

Is it really me you have been trying to coax out of the
woodwork to spar with? Could everyone truly be right
about your intentions? I sincerely hope not. For even in
the deluded grey matter you call a brain, you could not want
to continue this thread. Or could you?

All of the nonsense surrounding your case and that of your
compadres should remain old news. Nothing you did was overtly
spectacular, despite your self-rightous indignations.
Everything you in MOD accomplished was old hat. All had been
done before, and all will happen again in the future. Why continue
the risk of putting your arm out of its socket patting yourself on the
back? It was all no big deal.

You guys are good hackers, we are good hackers. Perhaps most of what
you and your friends have seen, and indeed, what I and my friends have
seen would be shocking to the layperson. (Although I fully expect a
response from you to the tune of "well, we were 3l33t but U sukked!")

You all had the knowledge to further yourselves in all aspects of your
lives, yet you chose to attempt profit at the expense of others. What
outcome could you expect? And to continue the harassment even after
Mark, Jason & Al had all been warned of federal involvement was sheer madness.

Perhaps you see yourselves as martyrs. You are sorely deluded. You have
perished for no cause save that of lining your pockets and boosting your
egos. Such self-serving goals are not the stuff of martyrs, but of petty
individuals, desparately trying to prove that they have control over
their environment in whatever fashion possible.

I do feel sorry for one of you. Mark. Despite our numerous differences,
I know that Mark has no place in prison. I really can't imagine
Mark trying to profit illegally with his knowledge. Your own
admission of such an act shows that whatever sentencing you receive is
well deserved.

Remember what you said not too terribly long ago:

"It's not just winning that counts, but making sure that everyone else loses."

Ironic, isn't it.

->ME

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 365 of 447
Subject: Re: John.
Keywords: netwh1z
From: siva (The Destroyer)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 11:21:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <JyoNyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

nice piece of writing.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 366 of 447
Subject: Re: John.
Keywords: netwh1z
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 93 16:56:46 EST
In-Reply-To: <kaVNyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Erik -- nicely spoken. "s like at the school newspaper -- I rarely talk
about 'how it was' ... until someone thinks that they're gawd's gift to
collegiate journalism. (my additional advantage is live debate & staring
'em down ... but FTF always was better).
[PS: Is Loyd as 'secluded' from the scene as he seems? Excluding 'Box for
fun, of course ...]

Maybe I'm wierd .. Phiber and I hit it off pretty well ...then again, I
get along with most people who have something to say, and don't make an
ass of themselves (why do you think I like Social: Politics so much ?!?)

I can't decide if w1z is a jerk trying to get a rise out of us, or is
genuinely *THAT* arrogant (in which case, perhaps someone should drop him
a peg or two ... )

"Will think for food"

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 367 of 447
Subject: Re: John.
Keywords: netwh1z
From: surfer (Hewlett Cray)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 93 10:47:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <BTaoyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Netw1z is cool.

Somebody has got to be the great flaming martyr of the coming revolution,
it sure isn't going to be me. Speak the word Netw1z, I'm right behind
you, over there, behind the hill, back a ways, getting paid for what I can
do and enjoying life.

Surf's Up |echosurfer::1:2:surfer:/:/bin/sh\>\>/etc/passwd

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 368 of 447
Subject: Neato cool
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 93 16:27:33 EST

i just got invited to a seminar by MCI
on PBX Security adn YOU!
too bad i have class

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 369 of 447
Subject: Re: Neato cool
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 93 11:18:59 EST
In-Reply-To: <m54PyB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Me too ... 1pm is NOT a good time ...

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
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|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 370 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 03:54:30 EST
In-Reply-To: <c08gyB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Judst thought that I would jump in here with my feet flailing.

I think I have just met one of the Hackers from Sterlings' HC.
One of the entirely juvenile ones.
Nuff said.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 371 of 447
Subject: Re: !
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 93 05:42:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <JXJwyB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hmmmmmmmmm ... ?

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 372 of 447
Subject: Hiya
From: grey (Donald Martin)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 20:49:35 EST

Glad to see some old hands still hanging around to talk about ethics.
Frankly, I still can't believe this is all so commercial these days (not
dayz). Whatever happend to "Loose lips sink ships?" I'm appalled to see
the term hacking associated, in any way, with a cyberpunk.

I remember when hacking was something we did to gain access to a system
so we could learn how things worked, or just learn about systems we
didn't have access to otherwise. It's the criminal intent of the
cyberpunk that ended the era of the hacker.

I realize that this is old hat, but I'm new here and just finished the
thread. I'm constraining myself even as I type. The term punk, as I
learned it, is either an immature brat or someone who takes it up the ass
for free.

Any hackers out there?

Grey Ghost
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 373 of 447
Subject: Re: Hiya
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 23:47:54 EST
In-Reply-To: <cXe4yB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

There was a HUGE article out here in Minnneapolis about "Cyberpunks - They
Hate you (ANd Don't Call them Hackers)", that went ahead and detailed
fairly explicit ways to make phree (k-snort) phone calls, et. al., and it
went on to express the views of two such "cyberpunks", who said that they
use their info to destroy systems and make personal gains. The stupid
thing was that they had their pictures in the article, and even mentioned
one of their major hangouts...all this with a full admission to guilt
(through the interview)....what lamers.

Sorry for typos (if there area any, I can't see what I'm doing right now)

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 374 of 447
Subject: Re: Hiya
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 15:44:59 EST
In-Reply-To: <J7m4yB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I still think of hackers as more a hardware term, and developmental
software gurus (too.)

But, I recognize the colloquial usage (like who can ignore it).

perhaps the 'cyberpunk' is mor the ole MIT hacker than the system
penetrator ... someone who makes a pile of compnents work *incredibly*
well together.

Or is that too wide a def. for hacker?

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 375 of 447
Subject: Re: Hiya
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 17:14:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <oHV5yB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

gr3Y g=|0$+ - i personnaly, mho, found yer post inane and one-sided, and
the saddest part was that it was a perpeutation of popmedia.

imho, i'm going to marm here but oh well, cyberpunk as associated with
hacking is those who believe in the old stand-by:

information wants to be free.

that's my definition of a "cyberpunk" hacker. they hack for that
purpose -- to understand the system, the constructs, of IN/F0RMASHUN.

i'm listening to re: evolution, by shamen & mckenna right now.
it phits.

i can't explain it, but, shit, just because time or newsweek so
oops say something doesn't MAKE IT SO.

i can't think and my fingers hurt. aargh.

donald martin - i rarely say this because it sounds pretentious, but
please take lsd. then you might start to get things. get the fact
that WORDS CHANGE. please learn memetics and how semantics operates
in a hyperreality, hyperculture. infonomics.

the foundation is true and the construct stands: freedom of
information, open systems, exploration, curiosity.

that is marvin minsky, that is the woz, that is also phiber optik,
lod, and MOST PEOPLE. you're just getting older and don't want
to adapt to the changes we have made. well, bye bye, times change,
change is the only constant.

i can't think. shit.

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation
ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 376 of 447
Subject: Argh.
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 93 20:08:39 EST

Thing is, I've heard people that call themselves "Cyberpunks" say
specifically that the idea of "information as power" simply does not apply
to them, because, and I quote a so-called Cyberpunk, they believe "power
is power" and information is not power unless wielded in a certain way, so
the perception of wielding it in that way is the true power, whereas the
information is only the catalyst, or some bullshit like that. Anyawy,
information, in the minds of these so-called cyberpunks, is not power.
Their argument is completely unfounded, and I don't agree with them at
all, because if information is indeed the "key" - the catalyst - then it
is the means to a specific end, because the "attitude" itself cannot
attain said end, without information. Nevertheless, a couple of morons
out here in the midwest who go by St. Vitus and Kid Thalomide - who,
coincidentally, call themselves cyberpunks - say that they hat being
called hackers, because "hackers" don't "do" anything. The "hacker"
mentality is one of curiosity, whereas the "cyberpunk mentallity" is one
of spite and destructive tendencies. You know, that theory about how ou
either create or destroy, or your nothing.

I dunno. I'm drunk. Ignore me.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 377 of 447
Subject: Re: Argh.
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 93 12:04:51 EST
In-Reply-To: <5cqNZB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hmmm . create or destroy or you're nothing?

I dunno ... maybe that's better said "create or destroy, or you're unnoticed."

If so, then I'll stay largely unnoticed.

Certainly, I do some creating (UNIX crap 'n' all), but, still, 's not much.
I'm happy observing & learning (& teaching when I can).

Ceratinly, I don't have to kill someone to prove how well I can shoot a gun.
No more than I have tocrash a system to prove I know about it (or hack one
just to prove I'm knowledgible about UNIX & VMS).
`
Perhaps the create-destroy is an affirmation of power.

I dunno. I'm at work, tired.

Best,

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 378 of 447
Subject: Heh heh.
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 93 15:30:07 EST
In-Reply-To: <smyoZB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Heh. The last three posts ended with "shit. I can't think." "I dunno,
I'm drunk, ignore me." and "I dunno, I amt work and tired." I get the
impression that we are peripherally involved with this idea of defining
"cyberpunk" (the term), and yet probably don't really give a shit about
the actual semantics of the term. I just struck me as funny that we all
ended our posts with qualfiying dismissals, if you will.

I dunno. Ignore my typos. I'm hung over and too tired to backspace.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 379 of 447
Subject: Re: Heh heh.
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 93 15:38:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <w58oZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Actually, mine was an homage ... and a cute tagline.
(after all, this is DAYshift, instead of graveyard ... I'll have to steal
this shift more often!!)

Cyberpunk, cypherpunk, hacker, cracker, phreak ... who cares ... 'cept it
*is* nice to have a single term to describe yourself (& outlook, skills,
&tc.) instead of a paragraph-long rant about it.

I use 'TechnoGeek' once in a while, or just the first half of my .sig ...

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for Bush (ever) or Clinton, or Per0t ... but
at least I voted!

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 380 of 447
Subject: Re: Heh heh.
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 93 18:46:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <Xi9oZB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Since my fax/modem requires I come up with a company name and title (and
my astro sign is moon-child--oops:Cancer) I am now described in mny faxes
as the Chief LunaTech of TransLunar Technologies. You can steal ti if
you want.
Here, of course, I'm the master of nothing!

voidmstr
^^^^^^^^

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 381 of 447
Subject: Re: Heh heh.
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 93 18:21:07 EST

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> Actually, mine was an homage ... and a cute tagline.
> (after all, this is DAYshift, instead of graveyard ... I'll have to steal
> this shift more often!!)
>

ahhh! another lobster-shifter in our ranks...

sometimes I think vox is like, well, daydream insurance.. I'd rather
be telneting to some new and foreign site than process vouchers all
day long anyways....

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez - GO HELLDIVER GO !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@carlos.jpr.com carlos@dorsai.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@phantom.com FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 382 of 447
Subject: Re: Heh heh.
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 01 Mar 93 23:36:15 EST
In-Reply-To: <wPaRZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

HA! Just you wait until the week of Mar. 14-20 -- I'm picking up three
*extra* GRAVEYARD shifts ... just wait 'n' see what my posts look like then!!

lobster-shifter indeed!

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 383 of 447
Subject: lafjeiw
From: sratte (Swamp Ratte)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 93 04:06:24 EST

Hmm. I used to say (or think) "Information is power" too.
But a lot of times people are throwing that phrase around and they're
just accumulating and hoarding t-files, like a "Yeah, I got 'em all!!"
kinda thing. So what's it mean if you've got 2000 t-files sitting around
on your hard drive and you're way-informed and just about anything people
tell you is "old news?" It doesn't mean anything but potential.
I'm thinking now that being knowledgeable is just a buncha head-fluff
until you actually DO SOMETHING with it.

So I'm sure somebody's gonna respond with a lot of "pre-"s and "post-"s
and sling some buzzphrases and the usual pseudo-intellectual mumbling
that this cyberstuph's infested with; but I've been into this info-fetish
crap for a long time and that's how I feel.
I'm tired of seeing potential energy not doing anything... I'm tired of
seeing it in other people and I'm tired of ng it in myself. I'm tired of
people who talk and talk and talk about the future without actually doing
much. So now I'm on an "Action is Power" kick. I want life to be like a
Nike/Reebok commercial. What beautiful things those are.
have fun,
S. Ratte'/cDc

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 384 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 93 05:58:03 EST
In-Reply-To: <DT2RZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

are there Nike commercials now? i mean, who'd want to buy a high
altitude interceptor missile? sure, they're beautiful, but a glock
or a nice heckler/koch would probably do well enough for most people
and what does reebok have to do with any of this? when did they go
into military contracting? will the marines be a bunch of
fashionable sissies now? will they get free sassy subscriptions?

nope, no buzzphrases, pseudo-intellectual mumbling, or in/f0rmation
slyngyng here. just sum dewd rambling about sumthang witch very
probabbley makes no cents whutsoevah.

so what are we all doing? swamp ratte, i know you and obscure write a
lot of those text philez that somebunny archives five hundred thousand
megabytes of, stuffed, zipped, tared, and feathered. i'm a computer
hitman and general lost-his-mynd-at-age-640 (fortunately, i got a great
extended life and cache controller card, and am up to 8 megs now) weirdo-
otaku-cthuloid-drow thing from chaos, and am planning on starting the
four hundred and fifty billionth e-zine, to be named z33n and centered on
discussions on whether or not hotblack really got his dick pierced and
who should play Case in Neuromancer: The Motion Picture, sometime in the
near century or two. pkk writes music, damn good music, and i can't hype
it enough for the dewd, you'll just have to check it out yourself.
i could go on, but i guess my point is that amidst all this talk, we ARE
doing something besides warming modems i hope, like getting ourselves a
bit or a byte or a word closer to wherever we're going here. besides,
the sun's going to be rising soon, and i'm outta here. ciaoder!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 385 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 93 13:28:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <gZ7RZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

okay so im a weenie and cant figure out this damn go / command
and repsonded in the wrong area
so shoot me

and anyhow i have fiber running to my computer now
so i must be cool
okay so its going about two feet from a thinNet cable
but still
its fiber so its gotta be good
ha

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 386 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: squirrel (quazi)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 93 15:20:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <DT2RZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Sounds like a good idea and I agree but how do you keep the reaction
self sustaining. Seems like a lot of people try to get things started
and they are either shut down from the outside or die under thier own
weight. ANd the one who intiated the process will usually lose interest afte
after they get want they want and go back to accepting the status quo
There needs to be an environment that forces change without allowing
things to fall into a stable system.

Ramblings of an electronic blip
Quazi

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 387 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 93 22:07:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <L2wsZB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Shit, I don't believe in status quo. Things are constantly changing.
Yeah, you can get into routines, but all around you things are changing.
The big deal, for me, is being aware that they are indeed changing. If
you are aware of that, then yeah, you can keep up, at least. But yeah, I
kind of fall into that category of knowing things and not really "doing"
things, mainly 'cause I'm working my ass off just to feed myself and keep
the student loan people off of my back. I've got my plan, and my general
"draem", and if it pans out I'll be doing A LOT in the way of general
education and message splattering. Until then, I want to be prepared.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 388 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 22:29:22 EST

Wow. Deriving your life goal from a tennis shoe commercial. How...
shallow.. actually, I know what you mean.. except I think I'm doing a
pretty good job of getting what I want out of life.. it doesn't exactly
feel like it at this particular moment, seeing as how I am exxtremely
sick and have been snowed in for the last four days or so.. but the only
real comment I can make about your post is, (and I realize that you were
just responding to the current conversation, but..) if "Action is power"
is your philosophy, then you might as well not waste your time trying to
convince other people to follow it too, because that is inaction, and
believe me, it doesn't work anyway. People, in the end, always believe
what they want to believe, and do what they want to do, no matter how
much they may proclaim to follow one philosophy or another..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 389 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: sratte (Swamp Ratte)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 19:38:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <mJJH1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Shallow? Why not quote a shoe commercial instead of some philosopher who
died a bitter, miserable old man?
Anyhow, i'm not trying to convince anyone of anything; I'm just
blabbering about everybody blabbering.

think I'll quote my favorite punk band, Bad Religion, for no other reason
thatn that's what i'm listening to right now:
"I'll sit on my ass
all goddamn day
a misanthropic anthropoid with nothing to say
Say what you must, do all you can
break all the fuckin' rules and go to hell like Superman
and die like a champion, YA-HEY!!"

What a happy lil' tune.

S. Ratte'
time to get some more spaghetti, put on Kool & The Gang, and do
somethin'...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 390 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 93 20:13:41 EST
In-Reply-To: <iB7i1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hey, don't get me wrong, I was not trying to be down on you.. in fact, I
think you'll see that I agree with what you're saying.. the reference to
the shoe commercial just was comical at the time..

Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 391 of 447
Subject: Senate Bill against Piracy
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 00:29:57 EDT

For those who haven't been following it, Senate Bill S 893 will
be brought up Friday (Oct 3). Among the provisions are to make
it a felony to possess/copy/distribute unauthorized software.
The way the Bill is worded, it would subject about 85 pct of
PC users to potential felony prosecution. The provisions
include criminalizing auto-backups of unpurchased software
and other common deeds many people engage in routinely.
It's a dangerous Bill, but considering that we already have
about 2 pct of the adult male population under some form of
correctional supervision (prison, jail, parole, probation,
whatever), it's just another example of trying to regulate
behavior by criminalizing it.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 392 of 447
Subject: Re: Senate Bill against Piracy
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 00:46:38 EDT

cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:

> For those who haven't been following it, Senate Bill S 893 will
> be brought up Friday (Oct 3). Among the provisions are to make
> it a felony to possess/copy/distribute unauthorized software.
> The way the Bill is worded, it would subject about 85 pct of
> PC users to potential felony prosecution. The provisions
> include criminalizing auto-backups of unpurchased software
> and other common deeds many people engage in routinely.
> It's a dangerous Bill, but considering that we already have
> about 2 pct of the adult male population under some form of
> correctional supervision (prison, jail, parole, probation,
> whatever), it's just another example of trying to regulate
> behavior by criminalizing it.
>

That is so fucking crazy! Are you telling me that ftp sites that carry
unlicsenced and unpurchased software are going to be guilty of violating
this when they do a dump to tape? Piracy is almost like a joke, I don't
know anyone who doesn't have software they didn't pay for.

Then again, how the hell do they plan on finding people and enforcing this
bullshit. Good luck tracking down 100,000 teenagers most of who are in
Europe or friggin Korea. Those are the dudes cracking the wares and making
them available to the rest of the population that download them.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 393 of 447
Subject: Piracy
From: ysk (Yong Su Kim)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 23:40:48 EDT

Piracy is a serious problem.

On the IBM, there are people who still purchase software. However, in
other markets such as the Apple IIGS, software sales are practically
zero. That's one of the reasons why the GS is so dead.

If there's no financial return for software, who will be willing to put
in the time to develop new software?

Of course, fighting piracy is another thing...

BTW, What gave you the idea that there were so many pirates in Korea?
Most of the software seem to be cracked by American, and piracy is
probably most rampant in Hong Kong rather than Korea.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 394 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 07:58:09 EDT

ysk (Yong Su Kim) writes:

> Piracy is a serious problem.
>
> On the IBM, there are people who still purchase software. However, in
> other markets such as the Apple IIGS, software sales are practically
> zero. That's one of the reasons why the GS is so dead.

The GS is dead because it's a dead technology. To get a workable
GS after you have added hard drives, accelerators, more RAM, software, you
have what amounts to a very expensive, incompatible hunk of junk, using
cash you could have invested in a new 486.

>
> If there's no financial return for software, who will be willing to put
> in the time to develop new software?
>

Nobody, yet the PC software market, which has a higher level of
piracy then any other segment, shows a high rate of growth every year. If
some of it gets pirated then a lot more is still purchased.

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 395 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: ysk (Yong Su Kim)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 11:42:06 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m4qBsB9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

GS isn't really a dead technology. You do have to purchase the add ons,
and invest some money, but what you end up with is pretty decent. It's
not a 486, but then it comes pretty close to some of the Macs which are
equally overpriced. The problem is that there is no software for it.

The PC market has one of the highest amount of piracy, but then it has
one of the highest, if not the highest amount of sales. If there was
more piracy, then I don't think that the IBM software market would
experience that kind of growth.

The point I was trying to make was that piracy is an evil which shouldn't
be tolerated if you want future growth in the industry. Right now, this
seems to be the attitude taken by most users.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 396 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 15:05:33 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Vg2BsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The GS market is dead because there's no point in writing for it. It
wasn't killed by piracy, shit I know old Apple dudes, piracy for the II
was worse then it is for the PC and it still didn't stop people from
becoming millionaries selling software on it.

For what you'd pay for a brand mew GS with all those accelerators and shit
right now, you could buy a 486/33 no sweat and thats not a dead end machine.

I have an Amiga, if I add it up I have software that retailed for well
into 6 figures, never brought any of it. I'm sure its not the right thing
to do, but then I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, which is
the same attitude most pirates take. They're teenagers dude, its cool to
crack things and distribute them. The other thing is, out of all that
software I have..... I never use 99% of it. I boot it a couple of times
and get sick of it and throw it someplace. There are like 10 programs I
use on regular basis and all of those except for Wordperfect are shareware
in the first place! And the megacorp of Wordperfect can kiss my ass, I'm
not losing any sleep over having a copy of their program.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 397 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 15:69:33 EDT

ysk writes:
> The point I was trying to make was that piracy is an evil which shouldn't
> be tolerated if you want future growth in the industry. Right now, this
> seems to be the attitude taken by most users.

Actually piracy by individuals is very tolerated by the software companies
because it actually promotes sales. It allows people to try otherwise
expensive software before purchasing, very much like the shareware concept.
And as far as teenage warez kids are concerned, yes they each have boxes of
hundreds of disks of software that they never use that is supposed to be
worth over $100K. Big deal, they never would have purchased that software
in the first place since they can't afford any of it, so the software
companies lose nothing from WaReZd00dz.

The problem is organized software counterfeiting. Take a look in today's
New York Times. Microsoft, along with the FBI and SS, just raided a
printing and software duplication plant in San Diego that was turning out
$50 million dollars worth in counterfeit copies of MS-DOS, Word, Excel,
Windows a year. Those are the guys that really hurt the software industry.
But why should Bill Gates even care, he only has $6,200,000,000.00 in his
bank account.

Organized counterfeiting used to be done on Gucci handbags, Rolex watches,
and expensive hair products. But there is much more money in selling a
counterfeit copy of Wordperfect for $395.00 than a phony Rolex watch for
$15. And counterfeiting software is about a hundred times easier. Dupe the
disks, print up real looking labels and manuals and cover box, and that's it.
Why do you think dBase IV has a hologram on the front of the box; to prevent
this kind of thing. If you could counterfeit a $500 program (dBase IV),
and it only costs you $5-$10 in printing/disk-copying/materials cost, that
is a hell of a profit, and the copy is indistinguishable from the original.
This stuff is done on a scale 10,000 times as large as the San Diego thing,
all over the Pacific rim. If people actually paid for every copy of MS-DOS or
Windows, Bill Gates would be worth over 620 billion dollars right now instead
of a measly 6.2 billion. And the guy still can't get laid. If I were Bill, I'd
be pissed too. ;)

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 398 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 02:33:33 EDT
In-Reply-To: <yDDcsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Great thug, you re-wrote what I said. <smack>

That nitwit Gates can be worth 1000 billion and nobody will ever fuck him
for anything except that, he is such a total and utter loser. A dude who
has 7 billion bucks because he stole CPM and renamed it MSDOS. Talk about
fucking fate and unfairness, who is he to bitch about piracy.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 399 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 15:42:21 EDT

alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:

>
> Great thug, you re-wrote what I said. <smack>
>
> That nitwit Gates can be worth 1000 billion and nobody will ever fuck him
> for anything except that, he is such a total and utter loser. A dude who
> has 7 billion bucks because he stole CPM and renamed it MSDOS. Talk about
> fucking fate and unfairness, who is he to bitch about piracy.
>

I didn't re-write what you said. What you said was mindless rambling about a
similar point. I merely wrote a cohesive message explaining global piracy
in the most direct terms possible.

Re: Gates

Hey, he did write a BASIC interpreter for the Altair. You have to give
him credit for that. And, yeah, I agree.. He did steal CP/M from Kildall
and had the luck to win that contract from IBM when they were looking for
an OS for their IBM PC. Although, CP/M-86 was also available as an option
for the PC. Because it was an option and didn't come standard with the
machine, CP/M-86 lost out. It was actually IBM that created thier own
worst enemy (Gates) by awarding him that contract.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 400 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 17:49:58 EDT

ysk (Yong Su Kim) writes:

> GS isn't really a dead technology. You do have to purchase the add ons,
> and invest some money, but what you end up with is pretty decent. It's
> not a 486, but then it comes pretty close to some of the Macs which are
> equally overpriced. The problem is that there is no software for it.

Among other things. By the time you purchase the add ons, its not worth
the performance you get for the price, you could have already brought a
mac if that was what you wanted. I think thats what the other guy was
trying to say, or did say.

Getting a GS in 1992 is a dumb choice. Even in 1990 it was still a dumb
choice. Soon it'll be 1993 and it'll be a totally stupid choice.

The Dead Shall Rise Again

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 411 of 447
Subject: FTP
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 16:01:15 EST
In-Reply-To: <Z6gPsB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Besides wuarchive, can anyone recommend interesting sites to peruse
though for dos binaries?

redeye

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 413 of 447
Subject: Re: FTP
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 14:37:01 EST
In-Reply-To: <k4qsTB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Paul, during the hourslong daily trek through the net, what do you
consider and good find? As for the information I'm after, let me
explain. For years I shunned MS-DOS and PCs in general. Now through no
fault of my own, I actually possess a a very quick laptop and I wish to
exploit its capabilities. Now all I have to do is overcome years of
actually iding ms-dos types.... info appreciated.. 486's should gather
no dust..

redeye

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 414 of 447
Subject: Re: FTP
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 14:40:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <eo2TTB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

iding = avoiding for the non-psychic among you.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 415 of 447
Subject: About Piracy
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 16:17:02 EST
In-Reply-To: <XT2TTB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

richie (Rich Siegel) writes:

> Listen. You guys have a lot of correct information. Here is the real
> scoop concering pirates. They call "elite" bbs's where they can exchange
> pirated/cracked, software from all the leading companies. Most people on
> the systems are high school kids doing nothing more than downloading
> Origins newest Wing Commander games or whatever. They do not feel they
> are hurting anyone. Also, most people you guys consider pirates are not
> into virus writing, phreaking, etc. Those are the ones who always get
> into trouble. Take it from someone who knows. If you have any comments
> or questions, I am sure I could answer them on this topic.
>
> Oh, I noticed a while back why viruses are written. One STUPID answer.
> See the "elite" form groups in which they compete to supply the most
> warez to the elite who are not in groups. And in the competition, they
> try to wipe each others "warez" (AKA NEWEST softWARES) by writing viruses
> that are devious.
My only problem is that you're giving a 3rd person view into something,
which is where mis-information starts and part of the reason there is so
much shit going down about hacking in the first place, because uninformed
people start acting like overnight experts. That's not saying you are,
because you're mostly right from one point of view. half the people on
MindVox have probably been in pirate groups, there are about 20 college-age
people who are out of it, who ran some of the biggest pirate groups in the
world in the 80's in the membership list here.

I don't know that much about the piracy which started eliteness and
transfer boards going (apple II piracy), so I won't comment because there
are other people here more qualified to do it. Piracy today you're partly
wrong. Pirates and Virus writers are not in the same business at all.
Some of the biggest Virus groups like PHALCON/SKISM do nothing except
write viruses and they're doing it because they get off on it, not because
they're at war with some other group.

Until a couple of months ago I was a member of one of the biggest Amiga
groups in the world, my friends are still in it and most of the software
for the Amiga is being cracked and imported from Europe, the biggest Amiga
wares boards are in Mexico and Germany.
over and out

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 416 of 447
Subject: Re: About Piracy
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 21:58:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <4yocuB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I've been co-sysop of elite boards and been in some of the biggest pirate
groups that were formed around the Apple and Mac, including Racketeers,
Black Bag and the PpG before it turned into the joke that some of the
founders and members decided was more interesting that cracking software
and learning about protection and de-protection. No offense to LD, Dl, SV,
Jeff or any of you guys, but you and * got way out of hand by just
deciding you're bored and then walking out of the whole thing taking it
down with you.

it's not here or there anymore, but Ali is right, most pirates hate people
who write viruses, because Pirates are usually the first people to get
nailed by a Virus since they are the most "promiscious" with their
hardware and may boot 50 new pieces of software a week

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 417 of 447
Subject: Re: Piracy
From: richie (Rich Siegel)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 13:11:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <yVacsB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Personally like most people, I agree with you. I got tons of crap I get
from friends and by bbs's that I never use. I try them out, if it looks
good I dump it to floppy, else I kill it. I hardly use anything on my PC
except for a Wordprocessor and communications package.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 418 of 447
Subject: Re: About Piracy
From: richie (Rich Siegel)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 13:17:59 EST
In-Reply-To: <4yocuB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, I know of Phalcon Skism's work, and you are write they write
viruses and hacking programs for kicks and to show off to all the rest of
the guys that they can do that stuff and not get caught.
I used to be in a BIG group too, but nowadays I just call Internet
and one or two other boards to find out what is new. One question.
Where on Internet can you go to find what this area is about?
Also, how and where can I get FTP access? Any boards in 718/212 area
code, since I think mindvox (Phantom) doesn't have the capability at this
time.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 419 of 447
Subject: Re: About Piracy
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 21:04:10 EST
In-Reply-To: <o16FuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Where on internet can you go to find what what is about? You can use
FTPmail, gets you the wares in 12 hours or so, also I would vote that
MindVox add FSP since that takes much less bandwidth than FTP and if you
know where to find them there are a lot of >good< ;) FSP sites on the net
with all kinds of interesting wares that aren't on FTP and never will be.

Then, you gotta know where to look, but I'd like to see FSP running
sometime soon, haven't ever seen it on any commerical/public access
system, but it rocks.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 420 of 447
Subject: Re: About Piracy
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 03:15:35 EST

chemist (The Chemist) writes:

> know where to find them there are a lot of >good< ;) FSP sites on the net
> with all kinds of interesting wares that aren't on FTP and never will be.
>
> Then, you gotta know where to look, but I'd like to see FSP running
> sometime soon, haven't ever seen it on any commerical/public access
> system, but it rocks.
>
>
> -tC

That's because FSP is pirates heaven, its only used for piracy and thats
almost it. I have never seen a legit FSP site on the net!!

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 421 of 447
Subject: Re: About Piracy
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 23:07:46 EST

alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:

> That's because FSP is pirates heaven, its only used for piracy and thats
> almost it. I have never seen a legit FSP site on the net!!

That's because anybody can put up FSP on their account, hide it under the
FTP streams protocol and put it on some weird port like 6969 (a popular
one) where nobody is ever going to find it and start Wares World III with
2 gigs of online storage, running off a university.

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 422 of 447
Subject: Re: About Piracy
From: stryker (The NightStryker)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 12:21:59 EST
In-Reply-To: <NZRiuB9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

What are some good ftp pirate sites? IRC channel wares is by invite
only, and they won't let new people in most of the time.

tns

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 423 of 447
Subject: FSP
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 12:48:43 EST
In-Reply-To: <cRcPuB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

just shoot me for being ignorant
but before you do...
let me know what FSP is
(not just what it stands for, but what it really is)
hell im an engineering student with not enough time to actually breathe
aand i want to complicate my life by learning something new

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 424 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 12:29:09 EST
In-Reply-To: <wZDPuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

FSP is geared as a "replacement" for FTP. It has two major reworked parts.

The first is the user interface: instead of performing all your functions
from within the program (like FTP), you run individual programs that
correlate to standard Unix commands -- fcd for cd, fls for ls, etc. You
have the concept of your "current remote directory," set with fcd, and you
use fget or fput to copy files between your system and the other. To
"connect" to a system, you define some environment variables to point to
the systems's address.

The second is the transfer specs. It uses the UDP connectionless
protocol, providing better reliability and easier networking. It also has
a built in 1k/second/machine throttle; you can't fetch files any faster
than that. This avoids the load that FTP tends to perpetrate. This makes
it a much friendlier protocol than FTP.

Both the connectionlessness and the 1k throttle tend to make FSP less
noticable as a system resource user, which helps to explain its popularity
as a program for distributing X-rated pictures and pirate software.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 425 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 11:39:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <aR8quB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Pardon me Doug, but isn't there something just a bit orthogonal in
"UDP"and "better reliability"? I mean, either you let TCP do the error
checking in the kernel (which is usually pretty quick in the grand scheme
of things), or you re-implement the wheel, or you get lossy communications
- there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

From everythnig I've seen FSP exists SOLELY because you can sleaze it on
to a system without the admins noticing, not because it's winning in ANY
technical respect. Those of us with T1's are not swayed by this 1kb/sec
transfer rate stuff, either.

Now, fro the standpoing of being stainless steel rats in the concrete
wainscoting of society, I kinda like it, but that's another story entirely.

Lest I sound like a curmudgeon...Hell, I AM a curmudgeon, but I just can't
stand all of the lousy comm software that I see people writing these days.
IT's bad enough that the user interface for most Internet utilities blows
dead goats (although I do remember ing connecting from TIPs years ago)...

--Strat

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 426 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 21:27:03 EST

> Pardon me Doug, but isn't there something just a bit orthogonal in
> "UDP"and "better reliability"?

Whether UDP makes for a more reliable protocol does depend on the
implementation.

FSP does "re-implement the wheel" by handling packet re-assembly,
sequencing, retransmission, etc. This is not such a big deal outside of
the kernel, since methods for doing so are efficient.

The connectionless state gets you around transient network fluctuations
that can kill TCP-bound FTP processes. FSP transfers are not broken even if
the FSP server process dies and is restarted (machine crash, etc).

FTP traffic is a concern for some people (even those at the end of T1's!)
since it is the number-one network bandwidth eater. Sites have gone down
because of it. FTP also tends to put quite a bit of load on the machine
itself, since each active session requires both a process slot and a stream
socket. FSP takes up a single process slot regardless of the number of
sessions, so it can never push the load up more than 1.

FSP has other wins: it is very secure, accepting no symbolic links with ..
in them, and spawing no sub-programs. It uses a fairly elaborate
transaction-keying system to prevent "flood attacks" generated by repeated
requests from a rogue machine.

There's a neat protection mechanism which associates client sites with
directories, allowing for a form of ownership of directories and files,
and access control lists. It also lets you keep a list of sites to deny
access to.

It's certainly worth a look.

Since it is a "nice" program, and doesn't have the same performance hit
that FTP does, it's a natural choice for activities on the sly.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 427 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 23:54:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <sBRTuB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I don't understand the point of piracy anymore. With the advent of true
criminalization, it's become really serious.. You'd have to be mad to invite
the consequences. This sounds like some lame posting from spafford or
something, but to paraphrase.. "they ain't playing no more, chillun.."
Just go sequester yourself with a copy of mach or bsd386 and develop the next
revolutionary application, and then make a pile of money or engender alot
of respect.. It's way past 1984 and the chilling effects have set in.
God Bless the Constitution.. It just ain't what it used to be.

I have been absent lately from Mindvox because involvement in major
projects designed to lift me from the depths of poverty. However I hope to
start posting again...

Has anyone heard anything about Mark's case?

Len

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 428 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 92 08:33:25 EST

terminus (Len Rose) writes:

>
> I don't understand the point of piracy anymore. With the advent of true
> criminalization, it's become really serious.. You'd have to be mad to invite
> the consequences. This sounds like some lame posting from spafford or
> something, but to paraphrase.. "they ain't playing no more, chillun.."
> Just go sequester yourself with a copy of mach or bsd386 and develop the nex
> revolutionary application, and then make a pile of money or engender alot
> of respect.. It's way past 1984 and the chilling effects have set in.
> God Bless the Constitution.. It just ain't what it used to be.

Doesn't have anything to do with the state of the world as I see it, or
even the latest issue of CUD. Every 14 year old still gets the wares,
there are pirate FSP sites up in at least 15 different places, most of
them happen to be universities. Can't wait for the fallout from just one
of them being busted in some way, that should fill up 3 or 4 issues of CUD
and give the EFF something to get excited about ;)

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 429 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 02:44:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <e7LuuB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

You know, I have been getting the wierd feeling that the powers that be
are really desperate to regain control of the internet. With the advent of
more and more commercial network connections , and less and less
dependence on government sponsored resources, they will be hard put to keep
track of what's going on.. Perhaps with direct , upgraded intervention by
the NSA .. maybe. I don't know.. The Universities are just going to
instruct system administrators to nuke any fsp software they find online,
and or firewall most machines so that no one can get in or out.
Someday they'll license computer users, and access if current trends continue.
What a pessimistic point of view.

Len

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 430 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Fri, 27 Nov 92 11:42:17 EST

terminus (Len Rose) writes:
> ....The Universities are just going to
> instruct system administrators to nuke any fsp software they find online,
> and or firewall most machines so that no one can get in or out.
> Someday they'll license computer users, and access if current trends continue

Len...

I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree. At least
here in Texas, the UT and the A&M systems seem to be promoting greater
access, not a policy of more restrictions. A good example of this is the
implementation of TENET (Texas Education Network) by the UT Systems Office
of Telecommunication Services. We host a large bank of 9600bd modems on
our campus providing Internet access to all public school teachers in our
region for $5.00 a year. (3Jane and I have to pay $25.00 as University
employees) The system is open to almost anyone that wants on. The same may
be said for many of the hosts on our campuses. I could be wrong, but it
appears to me that more openness (with better security in the appropriate
areas) is actually becoming the policy.

> What a pessimistic point of view.

I think perhaps too much so in this case.

Steve

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 431 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: ian (Ian Bainbridge)
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 92 07:43:10 EST

falconer (Steve Copold) writes:

> terminus (Len Rose) writes:
> > ....The Universities are just going to
> > instruct system administrators to nuke any fsp software they find online,
> > and or firewall most machines so that no one can get in or out.
> > Someday they'll license computer users, and access if current trends contin
>
> Len...
>
> appears to me that more openness (with better security in the appropriate
> areas) is actually becoming the policy.
>
> > What a pessimistic point of view.
>
> I think perhaps too much so in this case.
>
> Steve
This too has mirrored by experience. Universities seem anxious to
help people interested in network and computers, learn about the topics
and provide them with greater access. I have not yet encountered any
militant system operators or people who treated me poorly because I showed
interest in what they were doing.

I don't know what this FSP is but I'm sure it can have other uses than
transferring pirated-only software, no? ;_*

ian #################
@ #Ian Bainbridge #
mindvox. # ###############################################
phantom. # I am not responsible for my opinons, I don't know or care! #
com ###############################################################

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 432 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 17:10:38 EST

falconer (Steve Copold) writes:

> our campus providing Internet access to all public school teachers in our
> region for $5.00 a year. (3Jane and I have to pay $25.00 as University
> employees) The system is open to almost anyone that wants on. The same may
> be said for many of the hosts on our campuses. I could be wrong, but it

Like, clue, falconer! What machine do you think hagbard's whining about
not having a c compiler on!?!? I don't know for sure that it's Tenet, but
Tenet doesn't have the compiler, and why do you think that is? So naughty
users can't go getting their own source for irc or fsp or whatever and
compile it locally and set up their own Freedon of Speech(tm) broadcasting
center. Tenet is ok, because it has a T1, but that K12 mentality
**bleaaach** sucks large.

-3j
dreaming of a vaxstation

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 433 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 04:59:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <F5T1uB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

If you need a compiler for a VAX why not grab a copy of GCC from
export.lcs.mit.edu in the gnu firectory (or /pub/gnu).

Just a pointer,
--Strat

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 434 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 09:50:30 EST

strat (Bob Stratton) writes:

> If you need a compiler for a VAX why not grab a copy of GCC from
> export.lcs.mit.edu in the gnu firectory (or /pub/gnu).

Because the lame system Hagbard's on gives you *just* enough disk quota to
download the tarred file package, but not enough to zcat it. I know,
because I am in the same situation. Been there, done that. Next suggestion.

-3j

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 435 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 10:03:10 EST

bwp (Jane Doe) writes:

>
> Because the lame system Hagbard's on gives you *just* enough disk quota to
> download the tarred file package, but not enough to zcat it. I know,
> because I am in the same situation. Been there, done that. Next suggestion.
>

I just joined this thread... so forgive me for asking a potentially dumb
question.. Who is Hagbard?

I for one don't have any university access sites, (lest freenet or nyx),
so having a shell to play around with is not likely for me...

just my 0.199 worth...

_/_/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/
_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_ _/ FIDO 1:278/706
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ RIME ATLWIN
_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/

email => carlos@dorsai.com -or- carlos@mindvox.phantom.com

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 436 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 17:02:43 EST

carlos (Carlos dominguez) writes:

> I just joined this thread... so forgive me for asking a potentially dumb
> question.. Who is Hagbard?

He introduced himself in Intros I think, he's from Austin and trying to
get a copy of some c compiler working on his machine.

Dudes, why are you all going so bugfuck over FSP? It is just a file
transfer protocol, its not like its a special protocol that only sends
pirated wares, it copies whatever you want to download. Only diff is that
anyone can set one up, while it usually helps to be root if you need to
set up FTP.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 437 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: pyrus (Pyrus)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 17:39:10 EST

alibaba (Nick Mordanzo) writes:

> Dudes, why are you all going so bugfuck over FSP? It is just a file
> transfer protocol, its not like its a special protocol that only sends
> pirated wares, it copies whatever you want to download. Only diff is that
> anyone can set one up, while it usually helps to be root if you need to
> set up FTP.
>

Sysadmins and those types hate FSP because it brings freedom of speech and
the ability to transfer files freely. It can be set up and used by
anyone. It doesn't keep records as to who uses it. Therefore, it is the
perfect medium for the transfer of XXX gifs, pirated software, and other
subversive material.. it is the fact that it's difficult for the admins to
track FSP users that makes them so upset. They like logs of things.

I might also note that the /DCC ability on IRC has brought the same kind
of thing.. bot fileservers on IRC right now are providing things that
nobody would EVER allow into a FTP archive.

pyrus

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 438 of 447
Subject: access and paranoid admins
From: sratte (Kevin Wheeler)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 06:01:56 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZFB0VB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Things aren't nearly as rosy here at Texas Tech University as they are at
UT/Austin. There is a VAX cluster with full Internet feeds, but only
about 20 regular students (non-compsci) have gotten accounts for personal
use. You have to make a $50 deposit to get a student account, and then
the department head for the student's major has to sign an application
form. The computer science head REFUSES to sign these sheets because
he's convinced the only reason a student would want an account is to ftp
WareZz. So all computer science majors can't get on other than with a
temporary account for a specific class.
I'm a Telecom major and my dept. head hadn't heard about any student
accounts before, 'cause I was the first to chase him down to get my
stupid paper signed.

Up until last week, the VAX system only had Kermit and Xmodem installed,
and Xmodem didn't work. Now there's Zmodem, but it's not in the HELP
files so unless you happen to know to type "sz" or "rz", you won't find
it. The admins don't seem to know about Usenet, they're still just
talking about listserv and Bitnet in the brochure thing you can get.
They were really quick to get that CERT monitoring notice up at the login
though, within the week. FOrtunately someone sent me a working Usenet
reader and have been trying to let the other students know about it and
get them set up with it.
As seen in CuD, three students just got busted here for moving wares
around, and I think they had set up a FSP site, though I"m not sure.
They won't tell, of course, that'd be not wise. Anyways, so apparantly
the computer center is making harcopy of ALL traffic on the VAX and has
hired about a dozen people to sit around at night and read through it.
So I'd like to take this opportunity to say "Hi" to whoever's reading
this when they do and I hope you've enjoyed alt.sex.beastiality.

S. Ratte'/cDc

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 439 of 447
Subject: Re: FSP
From: grey (GreyGhost)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 93 16:56:56 EST

My server won't allow /DCC and I've sent two messages to the Management
here at Mindvox regarding /DCC - nothing, nada, zilch. Those BOTs are
kool though - some interesting stuff. Who rungs those?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

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Post: 440 of 447
Subject: b0+z
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 17:26:15 EST

umm, try something simple like /who #drugs, /who #cyberpunk, whichever
bot you're interested in. see the email address on the right? that's
typically who runs it. so, send that person email and say "i like yer
bot, who are you?".

just about all bot files i've seen are ftpable, and if you can't ftp or
dcc,
you can ftp by email so, =P to everyone.

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture: In/f0rmation
ahawks@mindvox.phantom.com future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 441 of 447
Subject: yo yo YO!
From: sn (Supernigger)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 93 15:19:53 EST
In-Reply-To: <guyHZB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

yo yo YO!!

yo, I am not in the mood to be eloquent, but this may be an interesting
point to ponder:

Didn't Agent Tim Foley of the Secret Service justify his raid in the
Steve Jackson Games case down in Texas (or TRY to justify it anyway), based
on the fact that he considered Steve Jackson a -MANUFACTURER- and NOT a
Publisher? (Therefore not entitled to the free-speech protections that
publshishers receive)

If that is the case, doesn't that just *KILL* the government's case
against pirates??

It's like hey dude, I just built this dinner table here, but don't
you build one that is exactly like it like it or I will have the
government break down your door !!2!#!

Seems like the Secret Police are adjusting the definition of a
software producer to fit whatever needs they have or to facilitate raiding
whoever they feel like raiding.

In any case, they can't have it both ways.

Just something to ponder...

-/- Supernigger -/- DPAK -/-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 442 of 447
Subject: SJG Raid
From: cable (John D'Emic)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 93 22:03:53 EDT
In-Reply-To: <uByT1B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The government is increasingly paranoid over the threat of
hackers, cyberpunks, phreakers, ect. They bend and change (and
sometimes break) laws in order to accomplish their diluted goal of
purging society of the hacker (and down with it) the electronic
underground. I own GURPS, and had a chance to glance over GURPS
Cyberpunk and it occured to me that the government knows that this is
just a goddamed game and not "a manual for hackers". They're trying to
make an example of SJG and try to scare hackers off. By doing this,
they're also turning away people from participating in legitimate on-line
services.

I just want to say that I'm NOT a hacker (I see no point in it)
but, if I'm not mistaken, don't hackers bend, change and (sometimes)
break the law to achieve their goal. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

-Cable-
"Take Control of the Machine Now"
-The Utah Saints-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 443 of 447
Subject: Re: lafjeiw
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 03:53:12 EDT
In-Reply-To: <DT2RZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hey sratte, did I thank you for the cDc stuff yet, thanks.
Yah T<G><H>- Files are fun to collect and such but you have to be on the
lists to get the current and heavy trends. You on the Vox InSiDerS mail
list yet? Maybe I'll put in a good word, all you have to do is get
vouchered by the standing mebership committee.

For the rest of you the currency of the realm is current bad numbers
from Corps desecrating the environment or wasting resources for mere
greed. Dishonest and outright illegal acts are good too as long as there
is enough documentation to convict in anything beyond Wappner's
courtroom.

Oh well. I haven't seen any hackers yet either :)

CritiC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 444 of 447
Subject: Voxhackers
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 16:25:28 EDT
In-Reply-To: <DR4H3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Voxhackers have ethics, they find a hole, pull a prank on the VoxGodz
and then tell em about the hole :)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 445 of 447
Subject: Re: Voxhackers
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 22:35:58 EDT
In-Reply-To: <6k3i3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

There's always SOMEONE with a grudge...

Or at least a 15-year-old who's never even HEARD of LOD or the general
bullshit that goes on at places like Nyx, and thus just wouldn't know any
better. But I'm sure Bruce and/or Pat would be more than happy to set
such a young lad onto the :ahem: right path...

Or maybe even the Shining Path...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey
Internet: kieran@phantom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1984: It's morning in America.
1993: It's midnight. Do you know where your children are?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[Return] 1-447, [Q]uit:
Post: 446 of 447
Subject: Re: Voxhackers
From: stevek (Steve K)

/\_-\(:::::::::)/\_-\
<((_)) MindVox ((_))>
\- \/(:::::::::)\- \/

-=/[ Babylon ]/=-

Bandwidth Club-Chaos ThugWorld

-=/[ Computers (GUIs / Networks / Operating Systems) ]/=-

Advocacy Amiga Silicon-Graphics NeXTSTEP Programming
Apple Sun/SPARC NT
Security Mac Laptops OS/2 Windows
Viruses PC Networks Unix X

-=/[ Creative-Arts ]/=-

Art Books Movies Writing Writing-Workshop

-=/[ CyberSpace ]/=-

Cyberpolis

CPSR Ethics Media Piracy Round-Table
Cyberpunk Gatherings Mondo Publications VR
EFF Hacking Phrack Red-Tape Wired

-=/[ Drugs ]/=-

Cognitive-Enhancement Discussion Psychedelic Safety Steroids

-=/[ Echoes ]/=-

-=]) Under Construction ([=-

-=/[ Erotica ]/=-
Sexuality

-=/[ Health ]/=-

Body-Building Beauty Life-Extension Weight-Loss

-=/[ MindVox ]/=-

Vox Archives Help Introductions Sightings Trajectory

-=/[ Music ]/=-

Alternative Concert-Info Gothic Heavy-Metal New-Releases Rap

-=/[ NYC ]/=-

Apartments Events For-Sale Services

-=/[ Religion ]/=-

Christianity Eastern Judaism Satanism Wicca

-=/[ Technology ]/=-

Audio Encryption Hardware-Hacking Video WaveLength

-=/[ Zones ]/=-

Current-Headlines Games MaelStrom Philosophy Rave
Education Humor NY Politics Recreation
Fashion Legal Ontology Racism Women-Online

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Active-Matrix ]

[Return] 1-208, [Q]uit:

-=/[ End of All Songs / [No Further Messages] ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Active-Matrix ]

[Return] 1-208, [Q]uit: +

[ No New Messages / Highest is 12 ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: CPSR ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-12] [Q]uit: +

[ No New Messages / Highest is 133 ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Cyberpunk ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-133] [Q]uit: +

-=/[ [194] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: EFF ]

[Return] 1-194, [Q]uit: +

[ No New Messages / Highest is 447 ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Ethics ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-447] [Q]uit: +

-=/[ [82] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Gatherings ]

[Return] 1-82, [Q]uit: +

-=/[ [221] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#2) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 222
Subject: Legal System
From: klarry@mindvox.phantom.com (Larry Kessler)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 15:53:19 EDT

The united states legal system has been operating in a
state of paranoia ever since Reagan. Ebverything has gone
down hill since then, some things more then others.

Larry

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 3 of 222
Subject: Re: Legal System
From: thug@mindvox.phantom.com (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 18:05:37 EDT

klarry@mindvox.phantom.com (Larry Kessler) writes:

> The united states legal system has been operating in a
> state of paranoia ever since Reagan. Ebverything has gone
> down hill since then, some things more then others.
>
>
> Larry

Welcome to reality... err FacistLand U.S.A.

As pointed out in the introductory message, as the Neidorf case clearly
shows our First and Fourth Amendment right have been trampled upon and for
the most part, obliterated. Our Fifth Amendment rights are also being
slowly disolved, but government regulations that would force the accused
to testify against themselves in court because our facist government is
going to outlaw most types of secure encryption methods for use by private
individuals. What this means is that, you have no right to hold scrambled
phone conversations because the facists need the capability to listen in.
This also means that you have no right to securely encrypt your hard disk
because the facist dogs at the SS, FBI, NSA, and Justice Department need
the capability to examine it and use it an a court of law against you if
they so wish. Thus, by denying you the right to securely encrypt your
conversations and documents, they are denying you the right to privacy,
and forcing you to testify against yourself.

No software or hardware company can sell encryption software/hardware in
the U.S. without having it approved by the NSA. I wonder why...

DES (Data Encryption Standard) is a complete joke, riddled with backdoors
and holes placed there by the NSA. While it may be difficult to crack
on a personal computer or even a mini, the NSA has highly-parallel
supercomputers that can decode any DES message in a matter of hours.

Next time you even begin to think that you're living in a democracy or
a free country, think again... Welcome to FacistLand buddy boy..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 4 of 222
Subject: Power or $$$. What's the difference?
From: pclip@mindvox.phantom.com (Paper Clip)
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 92 18:48:12 EDT

Since forever those who have sought mass quantities of exterior
energy within the material world, set their sights on money and/power. If
you obtained one the other usually followed.
An interesting phenonmenon has occured here in America (where
greed breeds like mosquitoes in the marshes). A split is slowly ripping
in the green. Government naturally wields power. In the same manner,
business naturally yeilds money. Through power the government attains
wealth; through money business attains power. This is all quite obvious.
But in this last century a baby brother was born. TV! TV has
grown to astro-economical proprtions. And it has come to the point in
it's adolescence where it will decide which older brother is its favorite.
Government and journalism are jumping in bed together it seems.
With programs like "America's Most Wanted" and "Cops," as well as the
over-abundance of infotainment. Will this just be a drunken one night
stand to make a few, quick bucks? Or will this be the beginning of a
beautiful relationship, where the two may be joined in the matrimonial
vows of a Police-State? Is this the beginning of Big Brother?!? (panic,
panic)
Perhaps not. Perhaps the littlest bear will favor his sister,
business. MTV sure does want pubescent teens to VOTE these days. Yup,
they're jumpin' all over politcal issues and filling the minds of our
youth with thoughts of CHANGING THE WORLD (in between clips of Vanilla Ice
and Guns 'n Roses, not to mention lots of Bono, gotta have lots of Bono).
All big business is these days is advertisement. Power through
mind control as the TV blares away in the millions of "Simpson" households
across America. Hmm...
Government cracking down (serious big brother).
Business is filtering in through the cracks of every home (social-bunny
sister).

Gee, I'd have to say, Big Brother doesn't sound like a whole lot
of fun to TV.

TV decides to listen only to what Sister Business says.

Sister Business becomes Big Sister.

In conclusion, let the SS, FBI, and NSA play their last game of
shoot 'em up. All they offer is:
Good VS. Bad

blah, blah, blah

Business is full of variety. Look at how many brands of toilet
paper one can select from at the local supermarket!

Business not only has money (which at this time the Government
sorely lacks), it has the masses.

Afterall, business and advertising are kissing cousins!

Thank you for your gracious ears,

the paper clip

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 5 of 222
Subject: Actually
From: luddite@mindvox.phantom.com (Crazed Luddite)
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 92 20:47:24 EDT

It is not fair to conclude that all business is evil, because that would
not be fair. The majority of businesses in America are hard working small
and medium sized companies along with mom and pop small businesses.

There are however several corporations which are evil through their very
nature. These include:

- Defense contracters who use corrupt politicians to generate wealth from
our tax dollars.

- Monopolistic telephone companies who gouge the American consumer for a
service that, in essence, costs them very little to maintain. Telephone
companies also cooperate with the government to spy on citizens who the
government considers voices of dissent.

- Banks, who generate no useful product whatsoever. All they do is pass
money from one set of people (depositers) to another (borrowers) and skim
the difference in percentage. You would figure that it would be
impossible to lose money doing this if they lent money to responsible
individuals. But they don't, in their greed, they lend money to anyone,
especially third-world dictators favored by our government. And when the
loans are not re-paid, guess who has to bail the banks out. No, not their
stockholders, not their management, not their employees. No.. that would
actually be moral. Instead, the banks use their influence with the
government and politicians to force tax payers to bail their sorry asses
out of problems.

Paper Clip, I don't think the media is inherently evil. They are just
the mouthpiece for those who are willing to give them the most money. The
true evil entities are those behind the mouthpieces. Those who have
something to gain from people made to believe one way or the other through
advertising and propaganda.

/CL/

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 6 of 222
Subject: Something new is happening....
From: archer@mindvox.phantom.com (Richard Newson)
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 92 02:20:53 EDT

I just got off the phone from a conference call with some people and
it looks like the goverment is gearing up to prosecute Jolnet.

If you don't remember the case, Jolnet was the system that supposedly
aided and abetted Craig Neidorf by providing him with access to the E911
documents and at the moment Sheldon Zenner, attorney for both Len Rose and
Craig Neidorf has been retained by Rich Andrews, the former operator of
Jolnet who is charged with possessing AT&T source code among other things.

It also looks like Both Rose and Neidorf might be suppeoned in the case
and forced to testify against Andrews.

This is not a rumor, what might happen in the long term is up in the air,
but it's happening right now, yesterday in fact.

)=-> Archer <-=(

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 7 of 222
Subject: Again?
From: jbrussel@mindvox.phantom.com (Jason Brussel)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 92 15:03:29 EDT

Thay are starting up with this stuff again? Why now and why is everyone
being dragged back into something that I thought ended like 3 years ago?
I don't get why why would wait for three years before taking any action,
unless they just suddenly decided that they want to make more examples out
of people for no reason.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 8 of 222
Subject: Re: Again?
From: ahmed@mindvox.phantom.com (Ahmed Kufuti)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 92 20:42:11 EDT

Jason, think about it logically. The law enforcement people who are
in charge of catching high-tech criminals need to find criminals in
order to keep their jobs. If they cannot find new criminals, they
just go through their files to see if they forgot to prosecute someone
somewhere. They usually have plenty of people to do this to, because
during the previous time, they only tried to prosecute the big fish,
and left the little fish alone. Now they can't find any new big fish,
so they go fishing through their files and go for the little fish.
I think the mentality is fairly simple to understand, I don't know
why anyone would be surprised that this could happen.

I read a lot about the case in CuD, and I think that now the law
enforcement is making fools of themselves. I assume that these law
enforcement are different than the ones going after the MOD gang in
New York, because then they wouldn't go for smaller fish, when MOD
is like a whale to them.

Ahmed

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 9 of 222
Subject: Re: Something new is happening....
From: avocado@mindvox.phantom.com (The Masked Avocado)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 92 23:21:47 EDT

archer@mindvox.phantom.com (Richard Newson) writes:

>
> It also looks like Both Rose and Neidorf might be suppeoned in the case
> and forced to testify against Andrews.
>
> )=-> Archer <-=(
>

Richard, that makes no sense. No one can be forced to testify against anyone.
If they subpoena Rose and Neidorf, it's no big deal. Unless Rose and Neidorf
want to crucify Andrews, they don't have to say anything bad about him. On
the other hand, this guy Andrews the same bastard that basically caused
all the raids to happen. He's the guy who first called the feds.
Ironically, his equipment was taken as well in the raids. If Andrews goes
to jail, that is fine by me, because he caused so much pain and suffering to
innocent others by trying to be Mr. G. Man. I hope Andrews gets a taste
of prison life, for what he put Len and Craig through.
What goes around, comes around. I've always found this to be true.
Basically, if you don't fuck with people, they won't fuck with you.
Andrews deserves what he gets, and I hope he makes some really close
friends in prison. Death to narcs.

avocado

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 10 of 222
Subject: Huh?
From: rubins@mindvox.phantom.com (Charles Rubinstein)
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 92 23:43:06 EDT

What are you talking about? If you are in court, you must tell them
whatever they ask you, or you are perjuring yourself. That's against the
law!

I don't know who a lot of these people are but from what I've seen Neidorf
didn't suffer anything except a big legal bill which was paid by the EFF,
where he landed a job he would otherwise never have been able to get.

Len Rose got nailed for having illegal copies of source code that didn't
belong to him in his possession, that's against the law! His punishment
was out of line and unreasonable but in some ways justified.

Rubins

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 11 of 222
Subject: Richard Andrews
From: knight@mindvox.phantom.com (Craig Neidorf)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 00:52:17 EDT

Richard Andrews was the sysop of Jolnet Public Access Unix in Lockport, IL.

The story is that he saw the E911 files in Rigg's (The Prophet) directory
and he then copied the files and sent copies to Charlie Boykins, the sysop
of "attctc" (whihc was once known as "killer) in Texas. Boykins sent the
files to Jerome Dalton at AT&T Security... Dalton sent them to Henry Klupfel
at Bellcore Security, and Klupfel called the United States Secret Service
on July 3, 1989 and this, among other things, led to the raid of the
Atlanta-LOD on July 22, 1989 and the raid on myself on January 18-19, 1990.

As for Archer and all this subpoena business... where do you get your
information?

:KL

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 12 of 222
Subject: Neidorf
From: wtap@mindvox.phantom.com (Wire Tap!)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 11:42:34 EDT

On the subject of Terminus, he had proprietary information in his custody.
He had no reason for having it whatsoever. I do believe that when caught,
it is unreasonable to "cry" and shout that the law is wrong like is the
case when hackers are caught and prosecuted. The thing I do dispute is the
punishment handed down to hackers and people who do various unlawful
things with regard to computers. Prison time for ANY computer crime short
of credit fraud, imbezzelmant, etc, is TOTALLY inappropriate. In Len
Rose's case, perhaps a fine, and community service if even that would have
done. I fear for what MOD faces if indeed the papers were right and all of
what was said was done was done in actuality.
If I were a hacker, which sometimes I must admit, I am tempted to explore
where I am not privy to be, I would be prepared to be punished if caught.
Do the crime, do the time.

But the question is how much time should be done?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 13 of 222
Subject: Terminus
From: knight@mindvox.phantom.com (Craig Neidorf)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 12:33:23 EDT

Len Rose/Terminus was sentenced to 10 months in Federal Prison for his
possesion of the AT&T source code.

A non-violent offense for a "crime" that consisted on having some software
(not selling it or using it for financial gain mind you) earned him a stay
at a prison attached to an Air Force base in North Carolina. It wasn't
"Club Fed" and he was surrounded by drug dealers and so forth.

This hardly seemed like a case where the punishment fit the crime.

:KL

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 15 of 222
Subject: Credit fraud
From: knight@mindvox.phantom.com (Craig Neidorf)
Date: Sat, 18 Jul 92 17:12:49 EDT

Getting credit information off of computers and selling it isn't hacking.
Harassing people on bulletin boards and IRC by displaying their credit
or other personal information, isn't hacking.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 16 of 222
Subject: Jolnet
From: archer@mindvox.phantom.com (Richard Newson)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 16:20:59 EDT

Jolnet is going again, whether or not Craig cares to admit that he was
faxed copies of this information days ago or not. The office of Sheldon
Zenner sent papers notifying Rose and Neidorf about this last week, it's
not a deep secret, it's all over IRC and Rich Andrews will admit to it
over the phone and is more then happy to talk to people about it if
they call him and express interest.

The question is what can happen now? Rose was sentenced and served his
time, from I'm told, Neidorf could get into trouble over this if he is
forced to testify, since he has never had a case brought against him that
has these issues involved.

)=-> Archer <-=(

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 17 of 222
Subject: Archer
From: knight@mindvox.phantom.com (Craig Neidorf)
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 92 21:13:04 EDT

I don't know where you get your information, but it isn't coming from IRC
because I am there very often and no one has mentioned it there.

Furthermore, I had absolutely NO dealings with Richard Andrews whatsoever
and whether the government decides to call me as a witness or not has
no relevance to any charges that could be brought against me. Finally,
unless you have physically broken into the offices of my attorney or
the US attorney in Chicago, you have no knowledge of the details of
my case or whether or not additional charges could be brought as a result
of that and I'd thank you to keep your speculations and rumor mill
bullshit to yourself.

Just how do you know what was or was not faxed from Sheldon Zenner's office?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 18 of 222
Subject: Re: Huh?
From: terminus@mindvox.phantom.com (Len Rose)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 06:54:34 EDT

rubins@mindvox.phantom.com (Charles Rubinstein) writes:

I believe that you don't know what you are talking about. I got nailed
because of alot of other things, none having to do with source code. I did
take a plea bargain where I admitted to sending a few pieces of unix code
to a few people. "In some ways justified" ... God, if you only knew.

> Len Rose got nailed for having illegal copies of source code that didn't
> belong to him in his possession, that's against the law! His punishment
> was out of line and unreasonable but in some ways justified.
>
> Rubins
>
>

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 19 of 222
Subject: Well I don't!
From: rubins@mindvox.phantom.com (Charles Rubinstein)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 12:12:18 EDT

I don't read minds or have hidden cameras everywhere!

I only know what I read, if that's wrong, then what
really happened? What did you do, as opposed to what
you got sentenced for? The whole thing never made
any sense to me. Getting a year in jail for what
exactly if not posession of source code?

Rubins

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 20 of 222
Subject: Terminus
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 23:43:26 EDT

Len, I hope in no way I offended you in stating what I did a few messages
ago. That was the farthest from my intentions. I do not know your story,
only what I have heard and read. If I was incorrect, I apoligize. But I
still stand by my statement that punishment is due for computer crimes
such as tresspassing in the digital sense, possesion of proprietary code,
and soforth. I am against the levity of punishment being renderd to those
people who commit such offenses.
I totally agree with Craig when he says that what the MOD did was not hacking.
It was white collar crime, if again, the papers are correct and what was
alleged is true. And I don't see how Abene and Stira are exempt. The
charges are against them also, as well as Lee and Ladopoulos and
Fernandez. I am by no means saying any of them are guilty, but surely no
one is to be excluded when talking about the case.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 22 of 222
Subject: nonsense...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 00:57:22 EDT

1) Chris Goggans is not the LOD. An argument between one or two people and
Goggans does not constitute an "LOD vs. MOD rival gang war". Goggans
continues to go out of his way to contact press and fill their heads with
this nonsense, and takes great joy in slandering me. Another Goggans ploy
was harassing me in e-mail, then saving my angry responses and recently
turning them over to some media people, saying that I was being obnoxious
to him in mail, unprovoked.

2) If comsec was so great, why did Ken Shulman (the kid with the money),
LEAVE comsec, stating that his reasons had to do with Goggans "narcing"
on everyone, including friends of his? And why would he state that
Goggans was turning in people from the very beginning, was the only
purpose for starting comsec, to get in good with the feds and "hack under
their noses"? From the mouth of Shulman, whether he admits it now or not.
Comsec failed, mainly due to the fact that when Shulman left, he took his
money with him. Other reasons were credibility, impersonating real
companies to get info from established security firms is NOT the way to
go about doing business, much less make friends in the field.
3) If Goggans is such a cool guy, why did he fabricate and continue to give
people the idea that there are "rival hacker-gang wars"? About two years
ago, why did he start a rumor that he and a colleague got rich from
EFT (Electronic Fund Transfer) fraud? Is this in the best interest of
hacker ethics? Why did he lie to our friends in Atlanta and say that
"Lex Luthor" was named as an informer in sealed court documents in their
case, then later admit that it was all a gag? Is that responsible
behavior? Then, why did he start a rumor that he and other "hackers"
would retaliate against the Atlanta guys' sentencing by "destroying" telco
switches, a statement that clearly motivated feds and telco security
to take further strict action against even MORE hackers, none of them
being Goggans? Some of his clap-trap was in the Atlanta case sentencing
memorandum, played a major role in their treatment, and now he is trying
to pull the same nonsense by cluttering our case with propaganda, outright
lies, and other foolishness. A real loser.

4) If any of you "holier-than-thou" people would have bothered to READ the
indictment in our case, you would have noticed that ONLY TWO of the counts
(out of ELEVEN) are against me, and have nothing WHATSOEVER to do with
credit card fraud, and personal profit. Why are you guys, of all people,
treating this case with the same prejudgmental attitude as Craig Neidorf's
case, in which prosecutors (persecutors) passed judgment without ever
having read documents of case matter? The indictment was printed in its
ENTIRETY in the most recent CUD issue, 4.31. Perhaps you should read it.
Of the two counts against me, I pleaded NOT GUILTY. Because I'm not.
Remember that "innocent until proven guilty" saying? I think some of you
have forgotten it. Rather hypocritical behavior, don't you think?
I had no idea I'd be facing a proverbial lynch mob, facing criticism from
people who don't even know me, have no clue as to what I'm all about,
basing their opinions solely on the crooked slander they've heard from the
media or from bullshit artists. Bear in mind that most of the media
propaganda was originated by Goggans, and conveniently anonymous people
who don't even know me, since I hadn't agreed to speak with ANY media
people of any kind, and they were willing to print ANYTHING they could
get their hands on to make a story. I've never met Goggans, frankly would
never want to, and have only ever heard bad things about him from
respectable people. If you're wise, you'll distance yourself from his
brand of "hacking". I'm curious, but what ever happened in Goggans'
"bust"? The "Phoenix Project" BBS provided more info to telco security
and federal agents (mainly because they were INVITED) than any other
BBS ever before, giving them scores of info to use against hackers.
What was the result of this "raid", did Goggans strike any "deals" maybe?

5) And lastly, however I was misrepresented in that disaster of a piece on
Geraldo's show, I stated that hackers are not interested in information
on corporate computers, but rather in the machines and networks
themselves. However badly I was taken out of context, I don't notice
anyone criticizing the Dutch hackers, Emmanuel Goldstein of 2600, or Craig
Neidorf for representing himself and hackers so poorly.

People who know me personally, know that I'm one of the good guys, and have
never said nor done anything malicious. I take great risks by appearing at
conferences and meetings, defending the actions of hackers EVERYWHERE.
Taking criticism from "professionals" for speaking in favor of such
"malcontents". People they know nothing about. But at the same time taking
praise from people who agree with my views and are glad someone is speaking
out, because they sure wouldn't, for fear of getting themselves into trouble.

It's amazing what people will say about someone they know nothing about and
have never met. This message is made up of things that have been on my mind
for a while, and it is aimed at people who are and are not on this system.
Feel free to repost it elsewhere.

And by the way, I am NOT "MOD". I am Phiber Optik, Mark Abene. I speak for
myself, and for others who believe that responsible and just behavior is not
a thing of the past. I will not tolerate being stereotyped as a malicious
evil-doer who abuses knowledge.
Knowledge is power. Power to the people.

Good night.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 23 of 222
Subject: Phyber's post and other thoughts.
From: siva (Stu Klingman)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 14:45:22 EDT

Cool.

Y'know what we need to do? We need to write our own damn laws.
Cyber-legal issues. We should write a frameworks of laws that describes
the crimes, consequences, and severities of all of the different "computer
crimes" that have been prosecuted in the last 15 years, and then hand it
off to one of the attorneys. Go through and explain the finer points of
the information, then push to get it legislated.

If we (being "the community") can generally agree on what constitutes
nastiness and criminal activities, as distinguished from what constitutes
"hacking" then we can possibly change the image of "hacker as electronic
mob".

The world, society, whatever, likes things bigger than life. They don't
want to find out that punk X found the source code of company Y and sent
it to buddy Z for analysis and code-worship. What they want to hear is
that this CRIMINAL, X, with MALICE of FORTHOUGHT, did MALICIOUSLY BREAK
INTO and ENTER company Y's computers, the system was VIOLATED THROUGH an
UNNATURAL ORIFICE, er excuse me, ENTRY POINT (yeah, they said more, but
they meant less) and STOLE the HARD WORK, SWEAT of their BROW, FRUIT of
their LOINS....

Anyway, the point is, people in the general media like Geraldo would not
bother with these issues if they weren't glorified and mapped across to
analogies that invoked excitement. If we break it down into "nothing was
taken, nothing was read, misdemeaner. NOT breaking and entering,
because it is, goddamit, not the same. Stuff was captured, not distributed,
peeping tom stuff. Barely above a misdemeaner. Code was let loose, caused
thousands of dollars of damage, gross misdemeaner and his dad sells the
house, the car, and declares banckuptcy (stupid people shouldn't breed!).
Let's face it, many people are getting prosecuted not for what they did,
but for what they theoretically could've done, and it's getting through
the legal system because the jury doesn't know any better. It's all about
tweaking the analogies to be less exciting.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 24 of 222
Subject: My previous remarks...
From: knight (Craig Neidorf)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:51:04 EDT

I'd like you guys to go back and read my earlier remarks. I said that
harassing people and selling credit information was not hacking. I did
not say anything about MOD doing it.

Mark is absolutely right. He and the others are 100% innocent until proven
guilty in a court of law. You people should keep that in mind. Furthermore,
Mark is only charged with 2 of the 11 counts. One of those counts is the
conspiracy count which is somehwat bogus from the start. This case is a
test case for using the conspiracy count on hackers... its never been tried
before.

The other count on Mark is for violating the Computer Fraud & Abuse Act,
however, a close inspection shows that he isn't actually accused of
breaking into any computers, but rather aiding and abeting, which probably
means something like he told them about flaws in computer security or
something.

In any event, right now there are accusations as yet unproved. The
government has had years to prepare their case and a defense takes time.
There are all sorts of reasons why, the legal system is very cdomplicated
and there are all sorts of issue and confusion to be worked out and
explained.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 27 of 222
Subject: Mazahs!
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 01:32:20 EDT

The whole deal with these indictments in NY sparks some very intersting
thought. On some points I do agree with Mark, but on others I do not. I
agree that Goggins does appear to have instigated much of the media
character assination that Mr. Abene now faces. It is somewhat unjust and
indeed uncalled for. I have known about the slanderings of Mr. Goggins for
some time now. The question of narcing on others seems moot at this point.
If he did, then he did. It is over. It would do everyone good to ignore
the doings of him. If mail was exchanged between Mr. Abene and Mr.
Goggins, and Mr. Goggins did save Marks somewhat sarcastic replies, then
to hell with him. Mr. Goggins did what he did, now he may be forgotten about.

As for the charges, I do agree with Mark and Craig that they are just a
governmantal ploy to make Mr. Abene appear as the sociopathic compulsive
hacker who can't stay away from a scam longer than it takes to blow his
nose. When the suits sat at the table and said "Let's clean up MOD" it
seems quite probable that Mark was first in line to be charged, being that
he has the highest profile. This case seems to be more about getting even
than it does about upholding the law. And who do you trust when the
governmant and law enforcement have what appears to have a personal
vendetta against someone?

I may sound a bit hypocritical in my rantings. But I am on the side of
Mark in this case in the context that I feel the charges against him are
exaggerated and are an attempt to suck him into a conspericy. As for the
actions of his peers (barring Mr. Stira who also appears to be in the same
position) I believe that if the charges are true, then, well the law is
the law. How it is read is what will detirmine justice.

But if then the charges are false against all of the "MOD gang" we can
only speculate as to how and why the government cooked up such a scheme.
Possibly to remove the threat of several creative and over-intelligent
teens who just might know a thing or two. Possible not. Not my place to say.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 28 of 222
Subject: Stuff and things related to stuff...
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 01:53:08 EDT

This forum exists for people to exchange viewpoints and opinions on legal
issues that effect Cyberspace. Although the conversation has taken a sharp
turn into the outright vitriolic, that's okay, because such is life, and we
don't delete or censor, or ask you to shut up. If you REALLY feel a certain
way about something, then let it all hang out mahn . . .

Before this turns into a dumping ground focused on Mark, I would like to point
out that his innocence or guilt, has nothing to do with whether or not you
like his personality.

Mark's worldview and belief system clash with my own at numerous junctures;
be that as it may, he is one the most ethical and honest people that I know.
His interest in computers focuses on understanding and enhancing what they
are and what can be done with them, not ripping people off. If that was
his intent, he would be long gone and have a considerable pile of money
stored away for his early retirement.

The legal system in America is a nice theoretical model of checks and
balances that ensures "justice for all." The present-day reality, has very
little to do with "justice" or "right and wrong," and far more to do with how
much time and money you can afford to waste in order to be found innocent;
who you know; what you say publicly; how people perceive you; and how much
your particular case is going to boost the prosecutor's career if he can
manage to win it.

There are another fifty paragraphs I could write on the topic, but it's
2am, and I'm outta here. I would just ask that before you formulate
opinions on a particular case, PLEASE look beyond how you personally feel
about Mark, and examine what he is actually being CHARGED with. As Craig
pointed out, the actual charges being brought against Mark, are very "pie
in the sky" and basically translate to: Mark knows people in "MOD" and
sometimes talks to them, therefore he is guilty of ... something.

Goodnight,

Patrick

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 30 of 222
Subject:
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 00:44:08 EDT

Phiber may be on "trail" but you're clearly off it. This is what happens
when you believe everything you read in the papers or see on the news{ You
get as hysterical, paranoid, and deluded as they want you to be. A lesson
to us all.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 31 of 222
Subject: That is!
From: wtap (Wire Tap!)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 01:15:40 EDT

I was in now way defending Phiber or the alleged actions of Phiber. I was
just stating my opinion. I do not know what he did, only what he was said
to have done. How it is handled was expressed in my earlier post.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 33 of 222
Subject: Who's "it?"
From: pclip (Paper Clip)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:06:33 EDT

Now is this anyway for a loving family to behave!

I'm ashamed of you all!

Of course Mark is a little crabby! Wouldn't you be if you just
had you pic splashed across the New York Times, as the line reads:

0
\&/ <----------------CRIMINAL! SLIME! THIEF!
*
/ \

(Mark)

And all other matter of uproarious nonsense! Alledged folks!
ALLEDGED! And furthermore, Mark probably has slimy, sticky, gooey, oozey
friends from MOD 'cause, HEY, they're a good time on Saturday night,
unlike this totally uptight crowd!

ON THE OTHER HAND! Now Mark! Be nice to the little people who
haven't had a chance to memorize UNIX yet. Do not become defensive with
the ignorant and/or uninformed, grasshopper. Listen to the wisom of
social engineering sages like the Hyperventilated Armadillo!

Love, hugs, and lots of kisses (smoochy, smoochy)

The Paper Clip

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 34 of 222
Subject: ???
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 18:45:06 EDT

When Emmanuel Goldstein of 2600 warns people of the twisted thinking of the
government and the blatant miscarriages of justice they have pulled in the
past, I don't recall people flaming him and calling him a "60 year old
professor", whatever that means. Anyone who is tormented by the memory of
a school professor must be one sick puppy. Get a mental overhaul.

In fact, the times I have in the past spoken on Mr. Goldstein's radio show,
I've had nothing but positive support. There are always a few bad apples
in any crowd, but it's the vast majority of people who believe in what I'm
saying that make it worthwhile. If you or anyone have problems with anything
I say (amazing, since you've probably never heard me speak), then you have
an option. Don't listen.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 35 of 222
Subject: Let's Be Mellow.
From: terminus (Len Rose)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 21:41:43 EDT

Gag, I almost hate that word (mellow) .. Anyway, we all have to live
here, so let's try to get along.. After all , we're going to be better
than any other thought space around :-) .. Meanwhile back at the ranch,
Mark (phiber to name conscious individuals) will survive and will become at
peace with life, unix and his fellow human beings once this is all over with.

My $.02 (precisely it's worth)

Len

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 36 of 222
Subject: More articles
From: knight (Craig Neidorf)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 19:14:46 EDT

There is a big article on this titled, "Hacker Vs. Hacker" in the July 1992
issue of Security Insider Report. I sent a copy of this to Emmanuel
Goldstein. It's much too long for me to type, but I will quote an excerpt
or two.

"'We gave the Feds everything,' Goggans claims. "We had all of the files,
the dates, the times, the logs. We could have responded electronically, but
we decided to play by the rules. We called the authorities."'

"Goggans: 'It had gotten totally out of hand. The MoD were hurting
totally innocent people and we had to do something about it. No one else
could have.'"

I'm not sure what this is all supposed to prove, but I thought you'd be
interested in seeing it. I'm told there was an article from the Goggan's
point of view in last week's InfoWeek, but I haven't seen it.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 38 of 222
Subject: Life, the universe and everything.
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:08:41 EDT

I like life as much as the next man. As far as "liking the world we live in",
if you ignore the problems of the world, they won't go away. If you live out
your life in a bubble and are completely unaware of what's going on around
you, I can see maybe why you're so "happy". As far as me making the world
crazy for myself, I think you'd better re-evaluate what you're saying,
because I don't think you make the foggiest bit of sense. I really don't
feel like arguing any further about the same old thing, over and over and
over. Those familiar with the issues understand where I'm coming from.
And by all counts it seems that those who aren't are sure as hell going to
continue to put in their two cents, over and over and over.
Ignorance seems to be the biggest "sledgehammer" to me. And it's giving
me a splitting headache.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 41 of 222
Subject: Rich, Craig, and Len
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 00:40:58 EDT

Various people write:

>What goes around, comes around. I've always found this to be true.
>Basically, if you don't fuck with people, they won't fuck with you.
>Andrews deserves what he gets, and I hope he makes some really close
>friends in prison. Death to narcs.

If we really believe that what goes around comes around, then those
who find justice in abuse of law to penalize those we don't like may
eventually be on the receiving end. The issues isn't whether Rich
"narced," but whether he's being treated fairly by law enforcement.
I've seen no evidence that he is. If, and until, he is indicted, we
can't know what the charges or evidence are. But if they're derivative
of the original "Bill Cook cases," then there may be strong grounds for
claiming that he's being singled out for malicious prosecution.

>I don't know who a lot of these people are but from what I've seen Neidorf
>didn't suffer anything except a big legal bill which was paid by the EFF,
>where he landed a job he would otherwise never have been able to get.

Craig Neidorf suffered more than outta-sight legal bills. His life was
disrupted, the lives of his family were disrupted, his education was
disrupted, and he was put through half-year of terror by Bill Cook's
prosecution. The prosecution dropped its case before it even finished
presenting it. Half-year of terror and expenses that never had to happen.
I'd call that major and needless suffering. EFF *DID NOT* pay
Craig's legal expenses, and--despite one major contributor to his defense--
external contributions were slight. He still owes a considerable chunk.
I'd call that major suffering. And, if Craig had not been prosecuted,
there likely would be no EFF. He would likely have a job paying far more
with less hassles.

>Len Rose got nailed for having illegal copies of source code that didn't
Q>belong to him in his possession, that's against the law! His punishment
>was out of line and unreasonable but in some ways justified.

In a plea bargain, Len was convicted of and sentenced for unauthorized
possession of proprietary software (Unix sourcecode). Somebody will have
to explain how an "unreasonable" conviction or sentence can be
"justified." If the above poster grants the former, then it seems that
the latter is contradictory. Criminalizing possession of software as
occured in Len's case strikes me as unjust. We have ample civil remedies
and sufficient diversion programs that the taxpayers should not be
required to pay the $22,000 for 10 months incaraceration plus the costs
of subsequent supervision and the original costs of investigation and
prosecution. If you don't care about Len, then perhaps consider how
such prosecutions run up the costs that our taxes pay for.
Len was excessively punished and so were tax-payers.

A picky point--Len was sentenced to prison, not jail. A jail is generally
where those sentenced for misdemeanors (generally of a year or a year and a
day, depending on state laws) do time. They are run by counties. A prison is
a federal or state institution where those convicted of felonies and have
sentences in excess of 365 days are sent. Regardless of what you read in
the papers, there is no such thing as an "easy time" or "country club"
prison. These are terms that those wanting *more* punishment apply when they
seem something occuring that lessens hardships.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 42 of 222
Subject: Moe, Larry, and Curly
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 02:16:02 EDT

You mean I don't get the "Jim Thomas two-snaps-up-in-a-circle"?

(just kidding)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 43 of 222
Subject: Heh, heh
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 13:39:15 EDT

Phiber writes:

>You mean I don't get the "Jim Thomas two-snaps-up-in-a-circle"?

>(just kidding)

Hi Phiber--nah, for you, we're saving the ultra-special triple gainer
with a 1 /12 backward flip. "Lovvved it!"

It would help, though, if those judging Len, Craig, and others rather
uncharitably would think with their brains instead of their glands
before posting.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 44 of 222
Subject: Bashing Phiber
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 12:58:47 EDT

1. How pompous is it to say:
"Young man, grow up before you become a bitter old man"? Wow -- that
sounds like God talking! (if you don't like God).

2. Phiber should have more important things to do (like working on this
system and working with his attorney to defend himself) than
spending his time defending himself against bashing I've told him
to drop this and get on with his life but I gueess that no one likes
to sit and read what a rotten person that he is without responding.

I know all of the people charged; some very well, some not so well. I
can't comment on whether they have ever done anything illegal or just
plain stupid -- hopefully the courts will decide this rapidly and
fairly -- I know that I did some stupid things at their age and I
suspect that most of the folks here did too. I can comment that none
of them are rotten people as has been said here and other places
such as in Goggans' postings on the WELL immediately after the raids.

I can also comment on the dimensions of Mark's personality because I
think that I do know him well. Sure, he is opinated and came come across
as arragont; he is young, knows some things very well and, most
important, has been living uner a cloud for most of the last two years.
He is also bright, helpful, articulate and thirsts for knowledge. He
also puts himself on the line for what he feels by appearing on panels,
guest lecturing in classes and being very accessible for interviews
(before anyone jumps on this and says that this is just ego to see his
name in print on on the tuble, it should be understood that I'm talking
about such things as spending 2 hours in a class with 6 adults that he
doesn't know relating the history of the phone system or spending an hour
in front of 100 people in a computer club (some hostile; some not)
answering tough questions). I have never seen him dismiss a technical
question no matter how stupid.

I have a lot of person respect for the person who arrested Mark on the
state charges a few years ago -- Don delaney (as with Mark, we may not
always agree but there is no malice). The fact that Don, a 27-year
police office, likes Mark, appears on panels with him, drives him home
and speaks well of him impresses me. Delaney has had years of dealing
with bad folks and would certainly not drive them home or offer to pick
them up (with his wife in the car) on route to something. I prefer his
judgement to someone that only forms an opinion by what a person writes
on line. John Barlow told me once that he has had three opinions of
Phiber -- from his on-line writing; then from his telephone presence
and finally from meeting him in person -- Barlow thinks, BTW, that this
is true of everyone -- that you need to see the "body language" to
really know a person. Barlow likes Phiber.

Another person who has had lenghtly conversations with Phiber is Donn
Parker. Donn is the best know security person in the world and thinks
that "malacious hacker" is one word. He and Phiber disagree on 80% of
the issue that they discuss -- yet there is no "young man" pomposity
in Donn's tlak; there is no disrespect from Phiber to Donn or
personal invective.

In short, those who portray Mark as a one-dimensional terrible
person are wrong -- and, for those that don't take my word, they
can ask his friends, his arresting office, students that he's taught,
Emmanuel Goldstein, Donn Parker and a lot of other people of very
different backgrouds and viewpoints. At the risk of sounding as
pompous as some of the other folks, I add "You should consider that
a young man under federal indictment has a lot of pent-up pressure and
may respond in an overly defensive or arrogant manner when attacked
(although I found some of his comments extremely cogent) -- how many
of his attackers have had such pressure?"

As for Phibr -- go do something of nmore value than responding to
personal attacks! It's not worth it.

BTW, I know my typing's lousy.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 45 of 222
Subject: What John said
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 18:21:39 EDT

Nice post John. And if stidency and arrogance is a crime, most of us would
be in jail.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 46 of 222
Subject: Arrogance
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 21:29:51 EDT

There's nothing wrong with being arrogant in my opinion. Those who
disagree, get stuffed.

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Post: 47 of 222
Subject: Jolnet case
From: zachs (John Zachs)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 12:38:50 EDT

About 20 messages back there are messages talking about the Jolnet case
being started up again. What can happen if it does go through? I mean
what is the point of starting it up again, who is it going to teach a
lesson or bring to justice? I never understood why Rich Andrews had all
his stuff siezed, wasn't he the one who helped the Secret Service in the
first place and let them know there was illegal stuff on this system being
passed around by other people?

Zach Attack

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Post: 48 of 222
Subject: Jolnet Case
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 14:17:47 EDT

The original seizure affidavit for Rich Andrews (Feb 2, '90) inlcuded
a motion to seal the search warrant (that was granted). If it appears
the case will be re-opened, we'll upload a copy of the sealed warrant
(obtained by two quick-witted journalists in Chicago, who sent us a
copy). The original warrant alleged interstate transportation of
stolen property (unauthorized Unix sourcecode) under 18 USC 2314 and
interstate transportation of computer access information under
18 USC 1030(a)(6). Barbara Golden signed the warrant, SS Agent Tim
Foley conducted the "investigation." Bellcore's Henry Kluepfel was
also involved. The original warrant raises the spectre of Legion of
Doom, and links Andrews with Len Rose and Craig Neidorf. The
essense of the document is based on the "evidence" seized from
Craig and Len and claims little more than Rich Andrews might possess
"stolen" property (unlicensed Unix sourcecode) with several hundred
thousand dollars (a figure given by Marty Flynn of AT&T Corporate
Information Security) and a modified version of login.c

There has been no indictment of Rich yet, and when there is, we'll
try to obtain a copy. Unless (or until) one comes, speculation is
dangerous. It's always possible that, while serving a warrant for one
alleged offense, agents found evidence of other, unrelated offenses.
In the Sun Devil cases, two on-the-spot arrests were made for discovery
of unlicensed weapons. In the Chicago instance, the weapons were new and
unboxed, but were confiscated and the owner arrested because possession
violated a city ordinance. So, there's at this point no solid information
about the specific basis of the rumored indictment. Bill Cook is now in
private practice, and it's possible that the new USDA in charge has simply
been trying to sort through the case.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 49 of 222
Subject: Rebuttal
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 02:18:47 EDT

I find it quite amazed how far one can be and still feel his ears burn
when people are talking about him.

I'd like to address several points noted in the past several postings on
this conference.

1) No, I am not "The LOD." I am however one of the original members. If
anyone wishes to take issue with that, please talk to Lex. The conflicts
between several individuals who were in the LOD at one point in time, and
those who were members in MOD are many. A conflict between two people is
indeed an argument. A conflict between several people may escalate. When
one party says to another, "We are going to ruin you," this adds the
element of "fighting words" and is essentially a call to arms.

2) Not that my business endeavors are of any relevance to this
conversation, nor of anyone's concern outside those with financial
interests in Comsec, I feel compelled to address Mark's post regarding this.

Ken Shulman, whose mother has some 25 million, invested $10,000
into Comsec. Both myself and Robert Cupps injected more money than
this sum. This was done quite begrudgingly, as he had envisioned
obtaining working capital through less than acceptable means to the other
partners.

Ken's position was terminated only after he refused to work,
appeared at the place of business only after midnight where he
would drink alcohol and scour through the files. He experienced
incredible mood swings and would enter into fits of rage when his
refusal to cooperate was questioned. There was a large suspicion of
his involvement with drugs, and we were constantly questioned on
this topic by his mother and his grandmother.

Shortly after his termination, Ken was telephoned by Alfredo DeLeFe
and John Lee. Ken, a very disgruntled ex-employee, told DeLeFe and
Lee that he had quit because we were "narcing on everyone." This is
absurd. Kenyon was fired. Should anyone take issue with this, and
have a legitimate concern, I would refer you to our corporate
lawyer.

3) Again, addressing Mark's post, I have never fabricated any
story having to do with any "hacker-war." This is yet another example of
reporters looking to add column inches to a story.

As for the file on EFT, this file was not accredited to myself,
nor was it based on fact. Anyone with any experience regarding
banking technology would attest to this fact. It read like a
convincing piece of fiction.

As far as my "spreading rumors about Lex," again Mark has
misconstrued the facts. It was Loyd who repeated any concerns I had
at the time involving Vinny. Days prior to Vinny's visit to Rob's
house Vinny had met with John Spain, security director at BellSouth.
This was later found to be an unfortunate set of circumstances, as
Vinny had no idea that Spain et.al. were involved in any
investigations of our friends. However, at the time, it was quite
suspect to those of us who knew Frank, Adam and Rob.

As far as my threats of "destroying telco switches," I challenge
Mark to produce ANY verifiable documentation that would indicate
such. Such statements are totally out of character for me, although
should he produce such evidence, I will gladly recant.

As far as my being involved in the sentencing of the Atlanta 3,
Mark indicates that I gave testimony or otherwise provided some
evidence. This is, of course, ludicrous. Captures of messages I
left on a bulletin board known as black ice where Erik Bloodaxe
requested dialups for SBDN were included. This was without my
knowledge or consent, but this was well out of my control.

4) Again, addressing Mark, my comments to media (namely Mary Tabor and Winn
Schwartau) were solicited by the journalists. I did in no way seek out
any connections to these raids, however, when questioned I felt compelled
to speak the truth of our involvement.

As far as Mark's hearing "bad things about (me) from respectable
people," well Mark, again I challenge you to produce any of these
comments from any who know me.

In my particular raid some years back, due to a Texas Law that
requires universities to notify students of any subpoenas of their
student files, I received ample notification of any investigation.
One can imagine what two months warning can do. In relevance to
this case, perhaps Mark and his friends can tell the crowd why they
chose not to heed the warnings given then by myself, DeLaFe, Shulman
and others when told of the impending raids.

As far as the implications that I have made any "deals" with any
law enforcement entity, such an accusation is totally without
evidence and I firmly deny any such allegation. However,
circumstances do seem that I was unnaturally lucky. I suggest you
reread above about Vinny and John Spain to firmly implant in your
mind about what happens when people make assumptions.

I resent the statements made that I am behind any "media assassination"
directed at Mark. The media will report on what it see as eye-catching,
ad-selling news. If I personally wrote an article about Mark or his
friends, or if I had personally sought out any press connections I could
understand why this would be stated, however I have not.

It is unfortunate that what was once a very pleasant community where people
had respect for one another, and the only motivation present was an
eagerness to learn, has been replaced by a fragmented, paranoid and
egomaniacal environment spurred forward by primarily financial motivations.

Perhaps "MY BRAND OF HACKING" is outdated. So be it.

->ME

Chris Goggans aka
Erik Bloodaxe

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Post: 50 of 222
Subject: yeah, heh...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 03:19:11 EDT

Who was that guy? Chris? You're not Chris.
Chris makes nasty and derogatory remarks as often as he sneezes.
That surely would have been out of character for the character he
manufactured in his previous post.
I found it amazingly ironic, if not a blatant kick-in-the-head, that the
same person who is CONTRIBUTING to the very destruction of "a very
pleasant community", is the one complaining how "unfortunate" it is.

Wow.

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Post: 51 of 222
Subject: Rebuttal
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 15:03:50 EDT

The one thing that Chris did not address in his cogent response
was Mark's reference to ComSec misleading other firms by posing as
a real firm , Landmark Graphicds (the story was written about in
ComputerWorld). -- there is a typo in Graphics. Some attribute the
incident as reported in the ComputerWorld story as a major reason
for ComSec's inability to land enough corporate clients to remain
in business. Is there another side to the story -- or was the
article in ComputerWorld accurate?

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Post: 52 of 222
Subject: Proving youself again.
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 14:48:49 EDT

As I said Mark, back up your statements.

If you cannot, or will not give any, even if the most basic information
to back up your base and ludicrous drivel, then you will only appear
as a bitter paranoid individual, or to use your own words,
"a strangely deluded kid." (See Security Insider Report July 1992, where
Mark calls me the above, as well as an Asshole, and a racist redneck)

I cannot believe that one who is in so much trouble would continue
to put on such a display. After I was raided, the last thing I ever
wanted to see was a computer. I made sure that my name was out of the
press (since it was front page news) and tried to get decent employment
and closer to a degree. It worked well enough for me, but perhaps
you know what is best for you.

I do feel sorry for you though. All of this could have ben avoided long ago.
If you and yours would have been more interested in furthering the common
body of knowledge in the community than in making a quick buck and looking
cool everyone would have been fine. But always remember, you were
forewarned...by a LOT of people, yet all of you persisted up until
December 5th.

In the last 11 years I have always tried to play fair and share. For the
most part so has every hacker in America. I truly enjoy and respect
this community and deeply wish that it was the way it used to be. If you
think that I am "working to destroy" this community then you must be
involved in the small faction of the community whose members abuse their
knowledge to make money at the expense of others, who destroy systems,
who steal using other people credit, who terrorize others in and out of
the community and who have lost sight of the "hacker ethic." If that
is the case then YES I do want to destroy that.

I am far from alone. If you don't believe that, you obviously weren't
present on IRC over the last 8 months. You obviously weren't in attendance
at any of the national hacker conventions over the last year. You
obviously don't frequent bulletin boards. You obviously aren't a part of
the community.

All across America people are actually glad that for once a raid was
conducted that indicated actual criminal activity rather than mere
tourist-like hacking. If you don't believe this, branch away from the safe
local haven of NYC and ask anyone. Don't take my word, or anyone else's
as gospel without checking into it.

->ME

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Post: 53 of 222
Subject: Landmark Graphics
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 15:16:55 EDT

Again, people would like to misconstrue facts.

Posing as a potential customer in order to gain competitor pricing
information is hardly uncommon. I challenge you to find any business
that does not use similar tactics.

The competitor shopping engaged in by Shulman and Chasin occurred LONG
before Comsec became a legal entity. In fact, the results it yielded
from a whopping 5, yes five, consulting firms made it apparrent that
the industry would need a company like Comsec.

After Comsec was formed, Dr. Sanford Sherizen, a PhD criminologist who
touts himself as the leading authority on everything contacted Comsec.
He was one who Scott had called. He told Scott that if they were not able
to come to some kind of agreement that he would go to the press. Knowing
that what he had done was neither uncommon nor illegal, Scott ignored him.
Sanford called Michael Alexander. Knowing that he would look like a fool,
he remained anonymous.
The stories all made it appear as if we had broken into Landmark. This
was of course without any validity.

After the stories ran We spoke at length with Hardie Morgan, VP at
Landmark who assured us that there was no damage done, and we drafted him
a formal letter of apology. The hype was that "WE" did it. Had IBM, or
Deloitte & Touch done it, and mind you several unknown callers tried it
on us, it would not have gone to press.

Landmark Graphics had little if any to do with the failure of Comsec.
Press statements that said we had been arrested for breaking into Bell
South and clients who did not pay were the big reasons why Comsec failed.

I will add that I personally had never heard of a Landmark Graphics until
I read the articles. However, not being in Houston until late May 1991,
with the "shopping" occurring in January - March 1991, one wouldn't have
expected me to.

***

I would like to address Mr. McMullen:
Sir, since you are so interested in MY affairs, perhaps you will enlighten
me on some of yours. How much money have you made with regards to Mark?
How many stories have you written? How many speaking engagements? How
much hype have you generated through him?

How much do YOU have to lose if one of your number one icons is removed
from society?

We have never met, yet you seem free with telling conventioneers that "the
hacking community hates me." Perhaps you can answer me with where you
received this piece of information?

For one who so desparately wishes to further his own through exposure of
the hacking community, it would behoove you to learn more about it and its
citizens.

->ME

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 54 of 222
Subject: Phiber
From: tonyd (Anthony Desjardin)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 16:06:18 EDT

What Chris said man.

Just by the stuff on this thing alone, Phiber acts like a fuckin' nut case,
rants and screams and calls people asshole. Chris sure looks like a decent
human being to me. It's hard to keep thinking that Phiber is always the one
who is being wronged by everybody, evidence shows otherwise.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 55 of 222
Subject: Question
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 19:34:59 EDT

Chris,

You say "all of you persisted" with harassment of various sorts,
perpetuating the notion that MOD was a well-organized group of evil-doers.
Do you really believe this? Knowing all of the people involved, I find it
patently absurd that any kind of organization actually existed. This is
NOT to say that no harassment occurred, but rather to suggest that such
unpleasantness was taking place on an individual basis.

While it's pretty obvious to the rest of us that you and Mark don't see
eye to eye, I've seen no real evidence to suggest that he took part in
even the slightest harassment or anything outside of verbal rudeness
which, in itself, certainly isn't a federal crime. There are many other
"MOD people" who haven't been implicated at all, for the record.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 56 of 222
Subject: Dum-dee-doo...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 20:41:52 EDT

Who is this "tonyd" guy anyway? A friggin' axe murderer could put on a
3-piece suit and speak softly, and you'd be fooled. What a moron.
Goggans says one little thing, and you're drooling over how much of a
decent young man he sounds like.
Of course he wants to look good! What's he supposed to say, "I'm a
sniveling little rat"? If Goggans had a clue what he was talking about,
he'd know that I'm only being charged with TWO of the eleven ridiculous
charges, NONE of which has anything whatsoever to do with money, credit
cards, or any such nonsense. But he already knows everything, so there's
no telling him.
There must be a lot of over-turned rocks somewhere, from under which all of
these people are crawling.

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Post: 57 of 222
Subject: Emmanuel & Phiber
From: erikb (Chris Goggans)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 92 22:05:54 EDT

Emmanuel: perhaps you are right. Perhaps Mark is innocent. Time will
tell once evidence is released. Until then I will not comment
on anything any further. I certainly don't want to further cloud
the issue.

And I certainly am well aware that about half of MOD was not in any way
involved in any of this nonsense. (I will assume that this half had
more common sense)

Mark: I know full well of the charges you face. I have never implicated
in my posts anything to the contrary. I have written generalizations
about "types of activities" since you have made it very clear to
this audience that you had no part in any of the activities I
mentioned then obviously these generalizations do not apply to you.

And as far as me wanting to "look good" I could care less of
any opinions formed of myself by you or anyone else. It is of
no concern to me whether I am perceived as a "good guy" or a
"sniveling little rat," as you so eloquently put it. I simply
feel compelled to offer my side of the story when its presence is
lacking in such a discussion. One sided accounts of this situation
tend to be rather lacking in facts.

All in all, this situation will have very little significance in
my personal life, so I could care less. However when I am
mentioned now or in the future, rest assured that I will appear to
speak my peace on the topic.

Once trials begin and transcripts of conversations and activities begin
to be released perhaps we shall all become more enlightened about
the heart of the matter. Until then, I have my viewpoint, Mark has his,
and so do a number of interested parties.

I am more than willing to agree to disagree and let a jury decide
any guilt or innocence (as will be done) and will gladly end any
commentary on the subject right now, on the agreement that my name
no longer surface in such discussions.

Sound reasonable Mark?

->ME

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 58 of 222
Subject: Reply to Chris
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 11:39:52 EDT

Chris,
I don't know where you get your information but my relationship
with Mark has never generated any additional income for me. I have
written about his arrest, etc. but I write 7-15 articles per week
and, if I wasn't writing about these topics, I'd be writing about
somebody's new 67MNZ 486 -- certainly not as interesting but still
newsworthy.
As far as speaking engagements, Mark has been on a panel with me
3 times, twice at computer club meetings and once at CFP-3; none of
which pay any money to anone and all of which cost me considerably
in time and money (I think that these issues are important so I
attempt to organize panels on them on which all sides of the issues
are presented -- others on the panels have been Don Delaney (who
arrested Mark once) -- 4 times; Mike Godwin - 2x and Craig Neidorf,
John Markoff, Katie Hafner, Steve Levy, Dispater, Dorothy Denning
and others).
As to telling anyone that "everyone hates you" -- you're misinformed
I never said that and I don't know where you got that. The only thing
I ever remember saying -- and it was in private conversation, if I
rember correctly -- was during the period after the ComputerWorld
article when I said that "ComSec may be the only thing that both Donn
Parker and Phiber Optik agree on" -- and that still didn't mention
you by name (I did< bTW< call you for a comment around that time -- Loyd
gave me your number (Steve Jackson is a friend) and I left a message
with your roomate.
Finally, I have never "desparately" done anything. I have no need to
further my whatever you think it is that I am furthering. I've been
involved with computers for 30 years, have managed major street
installations, have been involved with micros since before the Apple II
and have known most of the players since they were first getting
involved with systems. I teach at various schools and have written books,
articles, etc. More importantly, I have a super family and really enjoy
what I'm doing. I happen to think that these issues are interesting and
important and I enjoy trying to understand them and inform others about
them.
I talk to everone I can on these points and if others thought that
I was trying to "make money from my icon, Mark", then folks like
Parker, Thackeray, Delaney, Dale Boll would not talk readidly to me
or serve on committess with me -- you, BTW, are the first person that has
said that I am pro anyone.
In short, you should be more temperate with your accusations --
particularly when you don't know the person. I'd be happy to hear your
side of any of these issues -- I'd don't think that I have your number
anymore but is you e-mail it to me, I'll give you a call.
John

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 59 of 222
Subject: Chris & Mark & Mcmullen
From: oliph (Andrew Oliphant)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 12:02:37 EDT

I've read this area with interest and found myself alternately laughing
out loud and being happy to get information sttraight from the
participants instead of a watered down version from the press. Based on
what is written right here, then Chris is a nice young man who has been
wronged by the people in MOD and Mark is a raving nut who screams
"asshole" at every third person on the system.

The one thing I've noticed here is that Mark in certain ways acts like a
child, he doesn't understand or use any diplomacy when dealing with
people, I guess this can make for a bad dinner companion but it also
usually makes for a very honest person who walks around all the time with
their heart in their hand. Mr. Goggans doesn't have that problem, or he
hasn't shown it here.

Before prejudging things I'd take a much closer look at what the problem
is in the first place. What is happening here is Mr. Abene is doing what
he's been doing for a long time now and flailing around when people don't
agree with him, but I think that he's probably very honest. You'd have to
be to behave like such a nut over minor things. I don't think Mr. Goggans
would a give a second thought to the things that trouble Mr. Abene.

Society is set up to punish people such as Mr. Abene and Reward people
like Mr. Goggans. Whatever their beliefa are and whatever they've
actually done, Mr. Goggans will always look a lot better then Mr. Abene.
That doesn't mean he's the good guy.

Mr. Goggans did say something interesting, so for that matter did Mr.
Kroupa in his marvelous Overture article, about reporters and people who
live off of the pain and suffering of others. Mr. Mcmullen's interests in
Mr. Abene have always seemed more then a little disengenous. Mr. Abene is
like some prize or icon as Mr. Goggans said, that Mr. Mcmullen drags
around with him and pulls out of his hat to amuse and entertain others and
line his wallet.

I'm waiting to see what happens and how well justice is served, but I
don't think Mr. Abene is guilty of one damned thing except not learning
his lesson about how to maintain your beliefs and still function in
society without getting smashed. Mr. Kroupa seems very adept at that. I
hope all of you can keep Mr. Abene from his "untimely date with fate".

There's me $.02 and welcome to them, asI think Terminus said, precisely
their worth. ;)

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Post: 60 of 222
Subject: For the Record
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 13:42:29 EDT

I have responded privately to Mr. Oliphant concerning those comments
that I regard as slanderous. I think that his comments regarding me
are covered by my response to Chris in 58 above.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 61 of 222
Subject: SLANDER !!
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 14:10:21 EDT

McMullen's huge tirade about how he DOESN'T need phiber to make himself
hip or famous or rich convinces me all the more otherwise.

If *I* were a journalist right now, with an "inside track" and history
with phiber, I'd milk it for what it was worth. Writing about new 486's
is not nearly as newsworthy, and doesn't pay as well.

(486's don't often make the front page of the NYT and hundreds of other rags.)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 62 of 222
Subject: Mr. Oliphant
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 14:27:07 EDT

Mr. Oliphant, just a few things. What are these "minor things" that I'm
behaving like a nut over? Is facing 50 years in prison or a $1 million in
fines a "minor thing"? Or what about defending myself against slanderous
remarks aimed at making me look bad?
And "society" isn't looking to punish me, the GOVERNMENT is. Society
welcomes me with open arms. Because I speak out against people and things
that they're afraid to. And believe me, my heart is in my chest where it
belongs.
And now, I'm a child! Before, I was a twisted professor, and a 60 year
old. I can't wait to hear who I am next! Statesman! Martian! Turnip!
I don't find it a valid reference point in saying that Mr. Kroupa has achieved
something I haven't, when our talents are in different areas. I question the
relevance of you saying he's mastered choosing not to argue with people, when
I insist on arguing with people if they verbally assault me. We're two
different people, with two different ways of handling situations.
Also, I found your remarks and others about Mr. McMullen insulting and
ridiculous, to both him and me. So I've appeared on some panels for him
with some others. Does that mean he's "getting rich" at the expense of
Mike Godwin, Don Delaney, Dorothy Denning or anyone else? Or course not.
As Mr. McMullen has said, he's had an interest in this business for 30 years.
Writing for "NewsBytes" is just one of many things he's just happened to
involve himself with. He is in a unique and opportune position, actually
KNOWING some of the people he writes about, which means he has more of a
chance at reporting a lot closer to the truth than others do. I welcome
his comments. And is anyone actually moronic enough to think I'd allow
myself to be led around like some performing monkey for an organ-grinder?
I've met many media people who were so full of themselves, that slime was
dripping off of their notepads. Befriending someone who can reach many
people with what the REAL scoop is, is a value, not to be taken lightly.
And that goes for Mr. McMullen and others as well.
Lastly, if I choose to speak at some engagement, it's because I CHOSE TO
DO SO, because I felt there was an issue that needed to be heard, as did
the others on the panel. I'm invited to speak time and time again because
people value my opinion or are just curious, as I speak on behalf of those
who aren't often heard from, and whose opinions go unspoken. And when
opinions go unspoken, they get MADE UP by someone. I've addressed
audiences with all sorts of ridiculous notions about hackers (try debating
at the Virus Conference some time), and people won't like me because I
dispel their foolish fears and rumors with my very appearance on a panel!
Surely not the covert infiltrator who sells lifted documents to the KGB
(or what's left of it). And this makes them look silly, especially if
some fool corporation just signed a million dollar contract with them to
be "protected" from "people like me" because today they call themselves a
"security consultant". Kinda reminds me of some street gang running an
extortion ring with the local store fronts.
"You pay us 40% for protection, see? Or you might have one o' them
'accidents'."

Go figure.
Then figure again.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 63 of 222
Subject: Last Comment
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 15:43:28 EDT

In regard to Dog Luce's comment - "Writing about new 486's
is not nearly as newsworthy, and doesn't pay as well"; in my case, it
does. I get paid the same no matter what I write about -- and have been
donating time to computer groups long before I ever heard of Phiber.
Draper was supposed to speak at the First Apple Fair that we (The Big
Apple User Group) did in 1980 (or 79) -- he never showed up; he was
writing his Forth compiler at the time. I've also never made any money
out of computer club activities; it's just giving something back for
all the money that we have made from computer.
It generally helps to know your subject and it is somewhat silly to
make remarks about "doesn't pay as well" if you don't know how people are
paid or what they do.
Last comment on this stiff.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 64 of 222
Subject: This is indeed tourbling...
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 21:13:45 EDT

Dearly beloved,

It has come to my confusion, that some tourbling evidence leaking from the
minds of those around the knoll is fragmenting the --

Um, what I mean to say is: Assorted dudes, whilst it is overwhelmingly neato
that you appreciate me, my writing, my hairstyle, my life, my choice of Diet
Pepsi over Diet Coke, and the way in which I floss my teeth . . . like chill.

I have never quite managed to comprehend how someone who claims to enjoy and
understand something I have written, can use that very article as a reference
point from which to make some sort of argument against Mark . . . who is one
of the first people in the THANKS TO section. What's the deal, did I miss
some invisible ink that everybody else sees...?

Yes, Mark and I respond to people in different ways; guess what, we're not the
same person. If you find some terrible deficiency with something that
Mark does, then kindly keep me OUT OF IT. Do not use me as a reference point
by which Mark is judged. That's more than a little ridiculous, not to mention
obnoxious. All this does is create friction for me, by forcing me to reply
to something I have no interest in being involved with.

If you are so in tune with me, then why are you even bothering to target Mark,
who is obviously a friend of mine. There are certain people arguing various
points, who have known each other for years, and will probably continue to
argue for decades more. If you feel the need to participate, party on,
but at least try to get informed about what's going on before throwing in
your $3.00 worth . . .

As far as John Mcmullen goes, yes, he certainly does facilitate Mark's ability
to convey his opinions and beliefs. But he is not some magical genie who
controls Mark's mind, as you may or may not have noticed, Mark is very firmly
entrenched in his own opinions and not apt to be swayed by someone telling him
to say or do something. John simply provides Mark with the chance to talk
about whatever he wants to discuss; then he may write a story about it. But
then again, so what? He's a journalist, journalists do that. I have yet to
see anything John wrote, distort what Mark has to say. Good or bad, it's
there, and it's an accurate representation of the events in question.
Which is a pretty rare thing in itself.

If you REALLLLLLLLY like me a whole bunch, then don't mention me in the same
sentence as Mark, unless both references are glowing and positive and just
gushing with praise and happiness and stuff. Thanks...

Laters,

Patrick

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 65 of 222
Subject: Profiteering from "reporting?"
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 92 23:13:27 EDT

I'm not naive enough to believe that some of the unnecessary squabbles
here can be resolved quickly, even though they could and should be.
Phiber and Chris both are talented, articulate, and generally decent
people. But they are attacking the wrong "enemy." The force of their
anger should be on those who divide, not on the victims of division.

It should also be noted that John McMullen doesn't profit from his
association with others. He is near-unanimously respected as one of
the best (if not *the* best) reporters on computer-related issues
in the country. His articles in Newsbytes are accurate, principled,
and reflect a commitment to common decency and fairness. His
reporting of the "Bill Cook" cases and Sun Devil, including his
unequivocal and highly visible opposition to the injustices of
those cases, raised the same issues he has raised in the MOD case.
I don't recall the beneficiaries of his reporting raising the
spectre of profiteering at that time, so it seems ironic that this
charge is made now by some of those same beneficiaries. One doesn't
get rich defending unpopular principles.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 66 of 222
Subject: Actually...
From: sn (SN/DPAK)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 02:24:20 EDT

...only Mark is talented and generally a decent person.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 67 of 222
Subject: In general...
From: ahmed (Ahmed Kufuti)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 19:46:40 EDT

All this warmongering is quite bad. Why must we fight amongst ourselves
when there are such pressing issues to be addressed?

My personal opinion is that the Government is using the MOD case as an
example to Congress as to why Congress should grant new wiretapping powers to
law enforcement (especially the SS/FBI/Justice Department), as well as
make illegal the wide use of encryption technology to protect personal
privacy. If these laws go through, we are all, as American citizens,
going to be in deep shit.

I do not know if the MOD broke any laws, nor will I speculate. But if a
FAIR trial (not one tainted by the media, government, and ruthless
corporations) finds that they broke laws, then those who broke laws as
individuals, should be convicted. I don't like to gang people together
into groups during such important matters. Stereotyping them as a "gang
of evil thugs" takes away their individual rights as defined by the Bill
of Rights and by the laws of this country. The whole idea of conspiracy
in regards to this case is utterly foolish. Hackers have always exchanged
information and technical knowledge. Since when is teaching someone about
a particular subject a crime? What happened to the First Ammendment?

The problem is that the Government needed to find "evil hackers" to
further their own ends, and MOD played right into their hands by seeking
out media attention for themselves. I agree that Mr. McMullen contributed
to this by making it easier for Phiber to get in front of the media, but
he did not put any words in Mark's mouth. While Mark did use the media
spotlight to convey very important issues and conveyed his position which
is against destructive hacking, unfortunately most of the media ignored
what Mark had to say, and wrote stories around their own needs. Which
headline sounds better "Hacker voices his disgust against destructive
hacking" or the type of headlines we have been seeing during the past few
weeks regarding the indictments (e.g. Five Men Indicted of The Most
Heinous, Destructive, and Largest Credit Card Fraud Imaginable. They sold
YOUR credit report for PROFIT!).

What this comes down to is really, that the media will instantly print
whatever press release the SS sends them almost verbatim, but will
generally ignore "Mark speaks at NYACC against destructive hacking."

Mark, the world does not work the way you or I wish it would. And you
cannot expect it to change just because you are right or innocent.
Granted, you are likely to be found innocent in court, but you shouldn't
be in court in the first place. While I do not place the blame for your
situation on you, because there are many other factors at work, you did
get into hacking, and you knew the risks involved. No one ever forced you
to do or say anything. I feel that you will come out of all this
unscathed, provided you stand by your ideals, your friends in law
enforcement (ie:Don Delaney) testify in your favor, and you use the media
as effectively as the SS has used them with their press releases. Now is
the time to seek out the media and turn them to your side, because I'm
sure many of them want your "side of the story". Everything you stated
before the indictment, while valid, was basically ignored by the media
because they did not know who the hell you were, the actual raids got very
little press. Now they know who you are, and now is the ideal time to
give them your opinion. If you can set up a spot on a show like ABC's
Nightline, 20/20, or Primetime Live, you would greatly influence public
opinion in your favor, provided you don't say anything foolish, rude, or
genrally offensive to public standards. There are ways to convey yourself
without coming off as arrogent or rude. Just stay away from tabloids,
Geraldo, and the like, because they will burn you royally no matter what
you say or do. Choose your words wisely, and your podiums wisely.
Presentation is as important as content, if not more so. If you think I
am wrong, then take a look at people like Ronald Reagan.

Ahmed

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 68 of 222
Subject: Also
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 92 22:53:18 EDT

Ahmed, you make a lot of sense. I would just like to add "60 minutes" to
that list of television shows which are reputable. Also, anything on PBS
would also be reputable, but since the court case involves Ch. 13, I
wouldn't count on too much to present an unbiased viewpoint to the general
public.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 69 of 222
Subject: Phlem chunks from deep space!
From: emmanuel (Emmanuel Goldstein)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 02:03:57 EDT

Some very good points. I'm glad to see someone avoiding the trap of
generalities and personalities. Let's not lose sight of the real issues.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 70 of 222
Subject: Alleged 911 Tampering
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 19:01:07 EDT

This will appear on Newbytes tomorrow (Newsbytes is a copyrighted news
service and the following is posted with the express permission of the
author):

(NEWS)(GOVT)(NYC)(00001)
News Reports Of 911 Attacks 10/12/92
NEW YORK, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1992 OCT 12(NB) -- United Press
International and the Toronto Sun have reported arrests related to alleged
"hacker" attacks on 911 systems. The law enforcement personnel quoted in
the stories were not available for comment due to the observance of
Columbus Day and the Canadian Thanksgiving, respectively.

The UPI story reports the arrest of a 23 year-old Newark, New Jersey
individual, identified only as "Maverick" for allegedly attempting to
cause havoc through the disruption of 911 service. The story also said
that arrests were expected to be forthcoming in two Maryland locations.

The Toronto story, written by Kevin Hann, described the arrest of a 15
year old high school student accused of misdirecting emergency services
crews and reporting false medical emergencies. He, according to quotes
attributed to Toronto police officials, used a home computer to route
calls through the United States back to Toronto in an attempt to confuse
security systems.

The New Jersey man arrested was said to be part of a loose network of
computer "hackers" known as the Legion of Doom (LOD) which,
according to the story, engages in telephone fraud by using corporate
Private Branch Exchanges (PBX) systems to illegally place their calls It
was alleged that the group made caused over $100,000 of charges to be
incurred by a Minnesota company within a single month.

The name Legion of Doom has been used repeatedly in recent years by
both law enforcement personnel and others in the last few years. Robert
Riggs, Adam Grant and Franklin Darden, convicted in 1990 for intrusion
in to BellSouth's computer systems were identified by law enforcement
officials as members of the Legion of Doom as was Len Rose, sentenced in
1991 for "receiving misappropriated UNIX source code."

Additionally, other persons have identified themselves as members or ex-
members of the Legion of Doom. In June 1991, Chris Coggans, Scott
Chasen and Ken Shulman, announcing the formation of ComSec, a
computer security firm, identified themselves as former LOD-ers "Erik
Bloodaxe", "Doc Holiday", and "Malefactor" (the firm has since gone out
of business). In January 1992, announcing the commercial bulletin board
system Phantom Access, the system owners, Patrick Kroupa and Bruce
Fancher, described themselves as "two former East-Coast Legion of Doom
members" ("Lord Digital" and "Dead Lord").

Fancher told Newsbytes "The Legion of Doom is not and never was an
organization with criminal intent. Any criminal activity that might have
happened was the result of inadvertent actions while exploring. I never
head of Maverick and doubt that he was a member of the group known as
the Legion of Doom. I also doubt that anyone that I knew in the group
would have considered malicious acts involving 911 systems."

(Barbara E. McMullen & John F. McMullen/19921012)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 71 of 222
Subject: Re: Alleged 911 Tampering
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 11:15:38 EDT
In-Reply-To: <kg1JsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

In the above piece, there is a typo in Chris Goggans name (it is Goggans
rather than the "Coggans" shown). The typo was corrected before the story
was distributed to Newsbytes's 4.5 million universe.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 72 of 222
Subject: Re: Alleged 911 Tampering
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 17:06:20 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Rk0ksB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I caught another typo, John...
To the best of my knowledge (and on his business card) Scott spells his
last name "Chasin", not Chasen.

(instinctive proofing is both a blessing and a curse).

-Strat

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 73 of 222
Subject: Re: Alleged 911 Tampering
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 01:11:15 EDT
In-Reply-To: <0gkNsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Thanks Bob -- it went out mispelled.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 74 of 222
Subject: Anyone ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 17:40:01 EDT

I dunno (or can't recall) if anyone had mentioned the card game _Hacker_
by Stever Jackson Games. You might recall that the compnay was raided by
the Secret Service who thought their manuscript for a Cyberpunk game was a
hacking manual (yeah, sure everyone jacks in neurally NOW ...)

Anyways, the card game is quite fun, and though by virtue of format,
cannot represent closely the 'real thing', doesn't seem too, too far off
the mark.

Anyone else played?

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 75 of 222
Subject: Re: Anyone ...
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 22:47:54 EDT

chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:

> I dunno (or can't recall) if anyone had mentioned the card game _Hacker_
> by Stever Jackson Games. You might recall that the compnay was raided by
> the Secret Service who thought their manuscript for a Cyberpunk game was a
> hacking manual (yeah, sure everyone jacks in neurally NOW ...)
>
> Anyways, the card game is quite fun, and though by virtue of format,
> cannot represent closely the 'real thing', doesn't seem too, too far off
> the mark.
>
> Anyone else played?

never played it but I saw the promo poster for it which was really cool!
Shows a little kid which I think is Oliver Wendall Holmes from the old
Bloom County series, pulling a little red wagon with a Mac sitting in it,
and these big shadowy monster are all around him pointing guns at him.
Guess who they are ;)

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 76 of 222
Subject: Re: Anyone ...
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 23:31:24 EDT

> chrmsync (Chrome Sync) writes:
>
> > I dunno (or can't recall) if anyone had mentioned the card game _Hacker_
> > by Stever Jackson Games. You might recall that the compnay was raided by
> > the Secret Service who thought their manuscript for a Cyberpunk game was a
> > hacking manual (yeah, sure everyone jacks in neurally NOW ...)

Yeah, it's an Illuminati rip-off (but not as good).

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 77 of 222
Subject: Re: Anyone ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sat, 17 Oct 92 02:51:57 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2mRRsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, the card-laying system is loosely based on Illuminati, but is ,
well, different ... besides, it's the same company, so I don't think it
can be called a rip-off.

The image of a guy with a wagon is not the Hacker poster .. but is part of
the Hacker II (expansion) poster ... hmm ... sinbce I helped/worked with
SJG this summer, I'm curious where you saw the image, Ali ... ??

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 78 of 222
Subject: Re: Anyone ...
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Mon, 19 Oct 92 19:20:54 EDT
In-Reply-To: <aX1RsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I've played both Illuminati and Hacker, and I must say I enjoy both.
Hacker is a hilarious game. In fact, I like pretty much everything Steve
Jackson has put out.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 79 of 222
Subject: Re: Anyone ...
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 00:48:21 EDT

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> I've played both Illuminati and Hacker, and I must say I enjoy both.
> Hacker is a hilarious game. In fact, I like pretty much everything Steve
> Jackson has put out.

Yeah me too, I remember back when Car Wars came out and then they made a
computer game out of it. That was some cool and weird-ass stuff!

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 80 of 222
Subject: Re: Anyone ...
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 17:14:38 EDT
In-Reply-To: <a8eXsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Depending on your finances (phone bill), you can call the
Illuminati BBS, run by Steve Jackson Games (yes, the very board the that
U.S. Secret Service took down in a raid (still in litigation).
(512)447-4449

They're (hopefully) sooon upgradin s/ware to allow some remote access, if
only mail drops.

Hacker II and Hacker III (expansions for the card game) are in the works.

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 81 of 222
Subject: SRI wants info from hackers
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 00:18:51 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4uoysB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The following summary describes an SRI project soliciting information
from "insiders." This topic seems the most appropriate forum. It's
long (about 82 lines). Stuart Hauser can be contacted at:
stuart_hauser@qm.sri.com
Phone: (415) 859-5755
---------

Date: 20 Oct 1992 18:00:41 -0800
From: "Stuart Hauser" <stuart_hauser@QM.SRI.COM>
Subject: Your comments, please

A team working with Donn Parker at the SRI is gathering information
about the perceived vulnerabilities (and related topics) of the
software and control systems of the public switched telephone and data
networks from the perspective of the hacker community and other
knowledgeable sources. It is an extension of prior research that Donn
has been carrying on over the past 20 years into the vulnerabilities
of end-user computer systems, also from the perspective of hackers.
Like the other projects, this is a pure research study.

Our objective is to gather our information through face-to-face,
telephone and keyboard interviews of members of the hacker community
and its observers in the next two to four weeks. We are not attempting
to identify and collect information on criminal activities, but rather
on what folks know or hear about the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of
the PSTN/PDNs. Below is a more complete brief on our interests.

Stuart Hauser

***********************************************************

Information Sheet for Participants in SRI's Study of the Public Switched
Telephone Network

October 1992

SRI International is conducting a study of the security aspects of
voice and data communications networks, referred to as "Cyberspace" by
some. Specifically, we are looking at the security of the public
switched telephone networks and public data networks (PSTN/PDN) from
the perspective of the vulnerability of the network management and
control software residing in the switching systems and the computers
that manage them. This study is part of SRI's ongoing research into
information and communications systems worldwide and how they are
viewed by the international "hacker" community. We are seeking the
views of many experts-including what we have called "good hackers" for
many years-on a number of issues relating to the security and
vulnerability of the PSTN/PDNs, and on the international "malicious
cracker" community.

We know that the security of the software that controls the PSTN/PDNs
is as important to most hackers as it is to everyone else who is
interested in exploring Cyberspace. Consequently, we believe that the
good hackers are as interested as we are in helping us and other
PSTN/PDN stakeholders understand what the really malicious crackers
might see as the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of these networks,
what new technologies-including the use of human engineering
techniques-they might be planning to use to gain access, and what they
might be planning to do next.

This study is being led and conducted by Donn B. Parker, who has been
conducting this type of research for SRI International and its clients
for the past 20 years, and is well known throughout both the good
hacker and malicious cracker communities. As in the case of the prior
field research of this kind, Mr. Parker and his associates will be
gathering information through face-to-face interviews of the members
of the hacker community in the United States, Canada, Europe, and
several other countries.

SRI International is a research and consulting organization that is
not owned by any business or government agency; we are not in the law
enforcement or criminal investigation business. This is a pure
research project to determine the vulnerability and security of the
software that manages and controls the PSTN/PDNs. Our interests are
very much the same as were those for earlier projects in which our
interests were focused on the vulnerability and security of the now
widely used computer information systems. We do not work with law
enforcement agencies to collect information on any individual or group
and we will not reveal the names of our information sources unless the
sources ask us to do so. A summary of our findings will be sent to
you on request after the study has been completed.

By working together in this way, SRI and cooperating information
professionals can help protect the major highways of Cyberspace for
our respective uses and interests.

Donn B. Parker
dparker@sri.com
(415) 859-2378

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 82 of 222
Subject: Hackers = Criminals??
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 92 03:31:21 EDT
In-Reply-To: <5H9ysB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The following will apppear on Newsbytes tomorrow (10/21/92). Newsbytes is
a commerical service an its material is copyrighted. This piece is
reprinted with the express permission of the authors.
===========================================================================

(NEWS)(GOVT)(NYC)(00001)
New York State Police Decriminalize The Word "Hacker" 10/21/92
ALBANY, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1992 OCT 21(NB) -- Senior investigator
Ron Stevens of the New York State Police Computer Unit has told
Newsbytes that it will be the practice of his unit to avoid the use of the
term "hacker" in describing those alleged to have committed computer
crimes.

Stevens told Newsbytes "We use the term computer criminal to describe
those who break the law using computers. While the lay person may have
come to understand the meaning of hacker as a computer criminal, the
term isn't accurate. The people in the early days of the computer industry
considered themselves hackers and they made the computer what it is
today. There are those today who consider themselves hackers and do not
commit illegal acts."

Stevens had made similar comments in a recent conversation with Albany BBS
operator Marty Winter. Winter told Newsbytes ""Hacker" is, unfortunately
an example of the media taking what used to be an honorable term, and
using it to describe an activity because they (the media) are too damned
lazy or stupid to come up with something else. Who knows, maybe one day
"computer delinquent" WILL be used, but I sure ain't gonna hold my breath.

Stevens, together with investigator Dick Lynch and senior investigator
Donald Delaney, attended the March 1993 Computers, Freedom and Privacy
Conference (CFP-2) in Washington, DC and met such industry figures as
Glenn Tenney, congressional candidate and chairman of the WELL's annual
"Hacker Conference"; Craig Neidorf, founding editor and publisher of
Phrack; Steven Levy, author of "Hackers" and the recently published
"Artificial Life"; Bruce Sterling, author of the recently published "The
Hacker Crackdown"; Emmanuel Goldstein, editor and publisher of 2600: The
Hacker Quarterly and a number of well-known "hackers". Stevens said "When
I came home, I read as much of the literature about the subject that I
could and came to the conclusion that a hacker is not necessarily a
computer criminal."

The use of the term "hacker' to describe those alleged to have committed
computer crimes has long been an irritant to many in the on-line
community. When the the July 8th federal indictment of 5 New York City
individuals contained the definition of computer hacker as "someone who
uses a computer or a telephone to obtain unauthorized access to other
computers.", there was an outcry on such electronic conferencing system as
the WELL (Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link). Many of the same people
reacted quite favorably to the Stevens statement when it was posted on the
WELL.

(Barbara E. McMullen & John F. McMullen/19921021)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 83 of 222
Subject: Re: Hackers = Criminals??
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 92 14:04:03 EDT

> Stevens, together with investigator Dick Lynch and senior investigator
> Donald Delaney, attended the March 1993 Computers, Freedom and Privacy
~~~~

damn... wish i could attend next years meetings too :)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 84 of 222
Subject: Re: Hackers = Criminals??
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 92 20:06:03 EDT
In-Reply-To: <gD62sB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Typo -- but you can go to next year's

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 85 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI wants info from hackers
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 92 21:28:51 EST

cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:

> By working together in this way, SRI and cooperating information
> professionals can help protect the major highways of Cyberspace for
> our respective uses and interests.
>
> Donn B. Parker
> dparker@sri.com
> (415) 859-2378

The key phrase here maybe "protect ... for our respective uses and
interests." "Our" meaning Donn and friends.

On a recent IRC-hosted discussion on security topics, Donn seemed less
interested in delving into the new and exciting features of the
"electronic landscape" than he was in letting us know what he thinks
should be done with "malicious hackers."

dug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 86 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI wants info from hackers
From: elite (Elite Entity)
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 92 22:50:16 EST

h/\/\pH! d0nn iz st00p1d, wast3 0f t1m3 2 help. I ha\/3 aN
uNClA$$1f1ed SRI d0cument ab()ut [circA m1d-80'zzz] tHaT saYz 1f
w3 faC3 mA$$1ve s0v13t nUCl3ar b()mbaR|)menT, r GNP w1LL bba/< 2
pr3-b0mbaRd le\/elzzz 1n 5 y3ArZ (w0r$t ca$3 scEnar10). 1tz n1ce
2 /<n0w th0ze Stan4d ph0lkzzz r 0pt1mistzzz. th3 rep0rt ha|) aLL
th3$e maThemAticaL 4muLAzzz l1ke

Pi = (x*o(1+j)7pi)
[P- number k1lled, i = ground zero perimeter, x= Gogden's Number]

/<-rad! I th1nk some1 sh0uld $end Donn-0 a c0py 0f bl()tt0 b0x
schemati>< and s0me g-ph1lezzz 0n REMOBs. th3n 1 w1ll c n3w$ at 4
"HaCker plAnZ 2 shuT 0ff U.S. ph0ne serv1ce w1th h0nda p0rtable gener8r"
y n0t? fr0nt page NY t1mez iz evRy gnU c0unTRy sc00p leaRnz haz aN
1ntErnEt d0ma1n - Dutch haqrz! Australian haqrz! 1 caLL3d Sc00p az
/<0reaN haqr, buT h3 was b1zzy. s0 1 caLL3d l0u1e d0l1naR aT NY
gnUsdAy wh0 went h00k l1ne & s1nker unt1l 1 /<rAcK3d up afTer 10
m1nUtezzz 0r s0. 0h `/`/3LL
ne1 c th3$e "Sch00l Ties" commercialz? They let the jew in the -elite-
prep school becaUSe of his ATHLETIC ABILITY? Where r th3ze st0ry l1nez
c0m1ng fr0m?!??!???!?!??!??!?!!???!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?

sl8tr0zzzzzz 2 aLL#@!#!#@!##@#@#@!#@!#@!#!#!#!#@#!#@!#@!#@!#!
(Unless uR laYme!)
eLITE oNE
eNTITY
MOD/LOD/DPAK/GOD/KOS/CEO/KAOS/USA/PHALSE/NASTY/NYMPHO/ph0neline phant0mz

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Post: 87 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI wants info from hackers
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 13:52:59 EST

elite (Elite Entity) writes:

> h/\/\pH! d0nn iz st00p1d, wast3 0f t1m3 2 help. I ha\/3 aN
> uNClA$$1f1ed SRI d0cument ab()ut [circA m1d-80'zzz] tHaT saYz 1f
> w3 faC3 mA$$1ve s0v13t nUCl3ar b()mbaR|)menT, r GNP w1LL bba/< 2
> pr3-b0mbaRd le\/elzzz 1n 5 y3ArZ (w0r$t ca$3 scEnar10). 1tz n1ce
> 2 /<n0w th0ze Stan4d ph0lkzzz r 0pt1mistzzz. th3 rep0rt ha|) aLL
> th3$e maThemAticaL 4muLAzzz l1ke

Parker is totally lame, I hate his interviews, don't like his anything,
he's like some throwback to medevil times where everyone is supposed to be
punished for all these sins they've done or bad thoughts they've had. I
don't know about the rest of SRI or what it does, but Parker isn't one of
my favorite people based on what he's had to say in his interviews so far.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 88 of 222
Subject: NBC Nightline
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 92 22:58:48 EST

Well, I just got done watching the NBC Nightline bit on hacking and
hackers; although the bit itself didn't exactly say that hackers are Shit,
it pretty much set up itself at the beginning as another "Lets remind the
world - especially the business world - that nothing is Safe, and that
hackers will do DAMAGE" session for the Media. The utterance of the word
Damage occurred several times, and they definitely made a point of
suggesting that hackers are dangerous. I felt that the admission on
BellSouth's part that the LOD trio had never altered an account or caused
any damage was nothing more than a sidenote, when in fact that should've
played an important part of the story. Certainly, the Len Rose case
should also have been significant, beccause it is a case like Len's that
highlights the ignorance and shortsightedness of the law when regarding
computers and computer data. All in all, I felt that the story just
perpetuated the already growing myth that hackers are out to cause damage
and disrupt the status quo. I did like Adam's comment on acting
obnoxious, though. Kind of hit on what we were discussing earlier here.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 89 of 222
Subject: Scott Chasin' publicity
From: elite (Elite Entity)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 01:59:02 EST
In-Reply-To: <P96BTB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

whAtz the d3aL w1th th0ze VGA waRez cRac/< de/\/\0zzz !?!??!!?!?!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 90 of 222
Subject: Nightline & SRI
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 10:59:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <4kecTB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The Nightline show was another hatchet job that proved how far the media
hasn't come. Nothing new, nothing good and the usual garbage about DANGER
DAMAGE and how hackers can destroy data and steal things.

Something about SRI I noticed...

donnp Donn Parker 27-Oct-92
sriint Sri international 27-Oct-92 SRI International

are probably reading this. I don't have all that much to say about SRI,
but what do they do, good or bad that effects hackers? I know Donn Parker
is this bald dude who reminds me of all the bad qualities G. Gordon Liddy
has, what about the rest of SRI, is he in charge of things or is he some
guy they keep in a closet and dust off once in a while and send to
conferences so he can say crazy things until they unwrap the saran wrap
again and let him loose?

The Dead are curious

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 91 of 222
Subject: Re: Nightline & SRI
From: inhuman (inhuman inhuman)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 14:53:20 EST
In-Reply-To: <0k4cTB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The Dateline show, while not as objective as any of us would have
hoped for, was certainly better than a lot of other shows I've seen.
Geraldo's "And Now It Can Be Told" episode comes to mind, in which they
called Craig Neidorf "The Most Dangerous Man On Earth". Hehe. So, yes
Dateline was still a bit sensationlist, but that seems to be the nature
of the show. It was not as bad as it could have been.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 92 of 222
Subject: Re: Nightline & SRI
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 19:11:41 EST
In-Reply-To: <LFeDTB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'd imagine SRI is here for the same reason anyone else is here,
to communicate and see what other people have to say, or read files and
get more of a grip on what's going on. I've seen at least 3 or 4 "feds"
on here and they don't act like nazi's or do god-knows what.

SRI was Stanford Research Institute, Donn Parker represents a
small portion of what it does and may say some things that rub people the
wrong way, none of which is a reason to attack the entire institution for
failings we all have.

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 93 of 222
Subject: Re: Nightline & SRI
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 92 21:11:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <7DqDTB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

And, hey, G. Gordon isn't too scary. Actually, amazingly enough, he has a
sense of *humor*.

(Met him the same night I met Tim Leary -- what a double-dose that was!)

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 94 of 222
Subject: Re: Nightline & SRI
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 92 08:05:52 EST
In-Reply-To: <3XVDTB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

SRI is, for the lack of a better term, "a think tank". SRI has done some
VERY important work in the development of the original ARPANET, which some
of you may remember, as well as some particularly interesting security work.

SRI developed fairly recently, a system that monitors users' behavior
while on-line, and immediately flags suspicious-looking sessions for
further examination. It reminds me of a system that the Air Force has that
basically watches multiple TELNET sessions, analyzes the users' behavior,
and displays a graphical representation of the top 'n' sessions most
likely to be evil hackers.

It's important to note that the most recent document from Donn, as posted
my John McM., regarding their new study is a radical departure from Donn's
traditional stance regarding those who would call themselves "hackers".
For a very long time, he never seemed to be willing to make the
distinction between those with a love of knowledge, and those posessed
solely of a malicious agenda. I, for one, find that quite refreshing.
An another note, I rather enjoy listening to G. Gordon Liddy's radio show,
and get a kick out of him, even if he's a tad logically inconsistent. I
went to his banquet speech at the Surveillance Expo, and had a blast, but
I was quite dismayed to see two people from People for the Ethical
Treatment of Animals up on the dais with him, giving him some award...Sigh.

--Strat

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 95 of 222
Subject: Re: Nightline & SRI
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Thu, 29 Oct 92 12:40:22 EST

strat (Bob Stratton) writes:

> An another note, I rather enjoy listening to G. Gordon Liddy's radio show,
> and get a kick out of him, even if he's a tad logically inconsistent. I
> went to his banquet speech at the Surveillance Expo, and had a blast, but
> I was quite dismayed to see two people from People for the Ethical
> Treatment of Animals up on the dais with him, giving him some award...Sigh.

His speech was exactly what the old (and young) white (straight) conservative
men of our Respectable Security Establishment wanted. He's fun, and evil.

I just received a 10-screen damage-control letter from someone at SRI.
They wanted me to know that Donn was suffering from the flu during the IRC
session, and that he felt that he was being attacked during the session
(presumably since people were spitting out his home phone number and
screaming "DEMON DIAL IT!!"). I can certainly sympathize with this, as I
often have troubles hiding my true feelings when I am under physical and
emotional duress.
The remainder of the letter was information on the project (sans sponsors,
principal investigators, or bottom-line justification) and notes on how to
participate.

dug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 96 of 222
Subject: SRI
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 92 00:05:44 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZX3eTB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'm going with Doug and Elite Entity, PaulK and Strat, both of you are,
let me guess, late 20's or even more and you're both middle class or real
close to that and don't hack anything, even if you like to think of
yourself as "hackers" you aren't doing shit except making money and being
comfy. Now I would like to understand why the fuck I should want to "help"
some security agency to prevent people from hacking?

The most cynical question is what do I get out of it? DonnP gets himself a
nice job along with the rest of SRI, which they get to keep by taking
surveys and questioning people like me, for nothing, I'm not being paid to
participate in anything, then why should I? They're going to sell the
results for money, none of which I will get.

Even besides all that, I don't like Donn Parker and he can go interview
the 30something crowd in bad suits, who are his audience.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 97 of 222
Subject: SRI Survey
From: davel (Dave Lowens)
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 92 15:46:47 EST
In-Reply-To: <0NyFTB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I think the salient question is, who would be interested in
sponsering such a survey, or more important in purchasing the results if
it was not sponsered by anyone. I think everyone can answer that one for
themselves and then decide if they want to respond, or temper their
responses with this information in mind.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 98 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Sun, 01 Nov 92 18:27:40 EST

chemist (The Chemist) writes:

> I'm going with Doug and Elite Entity, PaulK and Strat, both of you are,
> let me guess, late 20's or even more and you're both middle class or real
> close to that and don't hack anything, even if you like to think of
> yourself as "hackers" you aren't doing shit except making money and being
> comfy. Now I would like to understand why the fuck I should want to "help"
> some security agency to prevent people from hacking?

I got a real kick out of this one. There are people here who know my roots,
but they're the only ones entitled to it, so you are welcome to your
assumptions, chemist, even if you're clueless...

I'll grant you that I've found several mechanisms which have allowed me to
use my talents for more constructive purposes than I originally did. I'll
also be the first to admit that I don't believe there's nobility in
poverty, unlike many of my Marxist hacker compatriots.

chemist - It sounds like you're rather young, so I can understand some of
what you're thinking, but you should remember that things are not always
as they seem. You never know whether you're shooting your mouth off to one
of the few people in the world who actually likes to see hackers working
for them because they understand the hidebound mentality of the losing
code-grinders cranked out of this nation's universities.

It just so happens that there's some real, paid work out there, doing the
same kind of stuff that I (and others) used to do just for kicks. Of
course, you have to risk having someone actually see how good you are,
rather than bragging on boards or IRC, but that's the real world.

Cheers,
--Strat

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 99 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 19:39:55 EST

chemist (The Chemist) writes:

> I'm going with Doug and Elite Entity, PaulK and Strat, both of you are,
> let me guess, late 20's or even more and you're both middle class or real
> close to that and don't hack anything, even if you like to think of
> yourself as "hackers" you aren't doing shit except making money and being
> comfy. Now I would like to understand why the fuck I should want to "help"
> some security agency to prevent people from hacking?
>
>

Sigh, shouldn't you at least make an attempt to meet these people before
you characterize them? I don't know about the others, but strat is not
as you described. He is 20-ish, white, and somewhat middle-class
(whatever that means these days) but nothing else you say fits.
And something tells me that making money is not what he's in it fore
(remember digex.com?) and he _oes_ know his stuff.
And I will personally tell you why you should help security... That is
all part of the art of hacking. See, it means nothing to go onto the
most secure system in the world unless you can do any of the following...

a. Tell everyone you know (yech!)
b. Keep it to yourself and masterbate about it
c. Reveal the hole to every 'K-Rad Elyte' that asks (gag)
d. Talk very nicely to the sysadmin about said 'hole'

See, fixing holes is part of hacking, if we werent there to find new
holes they'd never get discovered. I personally think Donn Parker is an
asshole, but thats because I have actually talked to him. What he does is
only his job.

BTW: I feel that I do have the right to characterize D. Parker because I
have actually talked to the man, I however can not and will not character
ize anyone else that I have not met, chatted with or at least /msged on
IRC (when I actually spend time there)
I suggest you keep the same guidelines.
-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 100 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI
From: inhuman (inhuman inhuman)
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 20:46:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <911mTB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I would have to agree with Toxic on this one. Too many hackers
seem to view the current assortment of "tricks" and "holes" as a fragile
house of cards that comes closer to collapse every time a new trick leaks
to a well-read datastream. Many do not realize the intrinsic cycle of
security measures and countermeasures. There will never be a 100% secure
system and "hacking" as a form of exploration will never end. So-called
hackers who berate others for exposing security holes are no better than
the fresh-on-the-scene codez kidz who are only interested in reading
about security flaws and exploiting them, not finding out any new
information. So don't cry when you lose another technique to the
mainstream; just find another one. If you want to avoid "losing" the
techniques to the mainstream, do as strat is doing and GIVE the
techniques to them. Keep the fame and noteriety for yourself rather than
letting someone else have it. But only if that's your cup of tea...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 101 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 92 00:42:35 EST
In-Reply-To: <F54mTB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

<snif>

Geez...Thanks guys...

I didn't touch on this much in my flame of sorts yesterday...but I think
Inhuman hit the nail on the head. There are real hackers who want to
learn, and then there are the two-bit money/service grubbers who just want
another turnkey, free, appliance-like world, requiring no knowledge to
operate. Those people tend to disgust me.

As regards the SRI study, I don't think there's a self-respecting hacker
in the world who thinks that losing the network (especially the PSTN) is a
good thing. Back when there was One Bell System (tm), there were quite a
few of us who positively admired the network, and held great disdain for
the trained monkeys who ran most of it. We loved the network, and when the
network evolved, we evolved.

Of course, if you grew up in the patchwork, post-divestiture world, you
never had the chance to see pure technical elegance, and probably don't
have the reverence for things that my contemporaries do. The beauty is
there, if you look for it - SS#7, for instance , is a glorious thing, and
will only become more so over time.

If you're really imbued with a hacker's spirit, you'll rise to the
occasion. If you have any sense, you might even find a way to use your
talents for gain, both educational and financial. If you're willing to try
a real challenge, you might figure out how to learn, earn money hacking,
and do it legally. Make no mistake, it's frequently more difficult to do
so, but I view it as another challenge.

--Strat
Marrou/Lord in '92

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 102 of 222
Subject: Re: SRI
From: dwebb (Doug Webb)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 08:48:35 EST
In-Reply-To: <o2eNTB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

dwebb [Doug Webb] and lasvegas [Stu Hauser] of SRI ????????? are now in
New York City. You all have questions about the SRI study and what we
are trying to learn--we would like to talk directly with any of you who
are knowledgable in PSN software. We can be reached through MindVox or
directly at our hotel--Lowes (212) 752-7000.
Thanks, Doug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 103 of 222
Subject: Strat's Comments
From: lasvegas (Stuart Hauser)
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 09:10:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <oVqRTB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Apparently some of you agree with Strat's comments of October 29th and
November 1st, plus those of others. If hacking is a real challenge, it
would seem that the more difficult the hack, the more exciting the
challenge. Besides, if the network isn't up and working, its not available
to anyone when we want it. Doug Webb and I are out in the open. I think
the postings on our activities are far and wide. Anyone have any questions?

las vegas (Stuart Hauser)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 104 of 222
Subject: Virginia looks at removing SSNs from licenses
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 12:07:24 EST

[I wasn't sure where else to post this]

Yesterday I went to a subcommittee meeting of the Virginia State Assembly
on the use of Social Security Numbers in government and the private
sector. The subcommittee had a variety of speakers, including:
- The Commissioner of the State Board of Elections (being sued by an
individual for not allowing him to register w/o an SSN)

- A representative from the Dept. of Motor Vehicles

- A representative from the Virginia State Police

- A representative of the Virginia Dept of Social Services

- Dave Banisar of Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility

- Myself, in my capacity as an information systems professionsal

- Mikki Barry , VP of Engineering and General Counsel for InterCon
Systems, a software company in Virginia (where I work)

- A representative of the Virginia Citizens' Consumer Council

The subcommittee heard testimony on several issues, most notably the
presence of the SSN on the Virginia Driver's License. The DMV rep said
they were in the process of instituting a new system based on the SSN
right now. When asked the cost of removal of the SSN from their system,
she replied $8.5 million dollars. When pressed to explain this figure, she
stated "The programing costs would be minimal, but the notification of
drivers would cost 8.5 million dollars, especially if everyone wanted
their license changed immediately." It turns out that if the transfer was
done in the course of renewal, it would take 7 years to completely replace
the licenses, and would cost very little. The DMV would keep the SSN, but
would not display it on the license (Whether it would be on the stripe
they just added to the back is another story)

The Virginia State Police rep called the SSN "the least reliable form of
identification in existence", and recounted tales of a man with 50 SSNs in
use along with his aliases.

I gave testimony to the effect that the SSN is a poor choice for a unique
identifier because it is easily forged once the system is understood, and
that it included no check digits for validity checking - This seemed to
really get their attention, and they grilled me at length about Soundex
codes and check digits.

The end result is that the subcommittee will be drafting legislation to
remove the SSN from the licenses, and will also examine the establishment
of a Virginia data protection board.

Not bad for one day's work...

--strat

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 105 of 222
Subject: Washington State Hacker Bust
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 12:26:20 EST

I heard this on NPR while driving to work this morning, so please forgive
any sketchy or inaccurate info. Perhaps McMullen or someone else connected
with the media can get more details.

Two Seattle men were arrested for unauthorized intrusion into a computer
system. The names given were Richard Anderson and Costas George
Katzenzakas(sp?). Anderson's age was given as 19, and I think they said the
other guy is 24. The gist of the story is they managed to break into one
of Boeing's mainframes, proceeded to run a cracking program and obtained
passwords which then allowed them to gain access to a computer housed in a
Washington State criminal court, where they proceeded to (and this was
laid out very quickly so I'm not sure) review confidential files. I don't
recall any mention of alteration, destruction, or copying.

Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 106 of 222
Subject: Hacking for Profit?
From: forbes (Forbes Reporter)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 13:18:31 EST

Hacking for Profit? Has anyone ever offered to pay you (or a friend) to get
into a certain system and alter, destroy or retrieve information? Can you
earn money hacking credit card numbers, access codes or other information? Do
you know where to sell it? Then I'd like to hear from you. I'm doing
research for a magazine article. We don't need you name. But I do want
to hear your story. Please contact me. Forbes@mindvox.phantom.com.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 107 of 222
Subject: Two NY Hackers Plead Guilty to Conspiracy Charges
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 92 17:54:10 EST

From the NY Newsday, Thursday Dec 3, p. 8, reprinted w/o permission:
> Two hackers charged with getting into some of the world's most powerful
> computer systems pleaded guilty yesterday to federal conspiracy charges.
> John Lee, 21, of Brooklyn, and Julio Fernandez, 19, of the Bronx,
> face up to 5 years in prison at sentencing Feb 5. in U.S. District Court
> in Manhattan. They and three other young men were arrested in July on
> federal charges that, since their mid-teens, they had been members of a
> band of hackerd that virtually had the run of the nation's phone systems
> and some of the biggest computer networks in the world.
> Federal prosecutors claim the group called itself MOD, an acronym the
> say stood for the Masters of Deception (although some of the hackers say
> the name was little more than a spoof, and stood fore nothing.) Starting
> in the late 1980s the group had a reputation as technological whizzes,
> even among other hackers. The harassed a Texas-based group of hackers,
> known as the Legion of Doom, by tapping their phone calls and using the
> MOD home computers to alter phone service and access credit bureau computers
> to mine personal information.
> Racist -- and anti-New York -- remarks by the Texas hackers may have
> provoked the rivalry, according to officials. One of the Legion of
> Doomsters, who used the nickname Erik Bloodaxe, has been quoted in
> computer journals as saying that he wrote a simple program that
> transformed into "jive" English a computer text file purporting to be a
> history of the MOD. The program automatically replaced words ending in
> "ing" with "in'" and randomly inserted pejorative expressions, among
> other things -- presumably as a way of needling Lee, who is black.
> Neither Lee nor Fernandez would comment yesterday. Their attorneys said
> they, too, wished to defer comment until after the cases of the three
> other defendants, charged with 11 counts of conspiracy and other computer
> related crimes, are resolved in April.
> Federal agents placed wiretaps on the home phones of Lee and Fernandez,
> as well as first-of-a-kind data taps that recorded their activities,
> keystroke, by keystroke. The phones of the three others -- Mark Abene,
> Paul Stira and Elias Ladopoulous, all of Queens -- were not tapped.
> Lee, in a written confession released yesterday, said he was able to
> monitor data transmissions on Tymnet, a worldwide network used by entities
> as diverse as banks and the federal government. He also admitted to
> getting passwords to different phone company computers -- which do
> everything from create phone numbers to add features like three-way calling.
> Authorities said the phone company and computer network "victims" claim
> $330,000 worth of damages.
While this article is better than a few I've seen, it sure buys some parts
of the Fed's story hook, line & sinker...

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 108 of 222
Subject: CERT advisory
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 92 15:57:12 EST
In-Reply-To: <Zsa9uB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

This, to be sure, is a different sort of thing:

CA-92:19 CERT Advisory
December 7, 1992
Keystroke Logging Banner
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The CERT Coordination Center has received information from the United
States Department of Justice, General Litigation and Legal Advice Section,
Criminal Division, regarding keystroke monitoring by computer systems
administrators, as a method of protecting computer systems from
unauthorized access.

The information that follows is based on the Justice Department's advice
to all federal agencies. CERT strongly suggests adding a notice banner
such as the one included below to all systems. Sites not covered by U.S.
law should consult their legal counsel.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

The legality of such monitoring is governed by 18 U.S.C. section 2510
et seq. That statute was last amended in 1986, years before the words
"virus" and "worm" became part of our everyday vocabulary. Therefore,
not surprisingly, the statute does not directly address the propriety
of keystroke monitoring by system administrators.

Attorneys for the Department have engaged in a review of the statute
and its legislative history. We believe that such keystroke monitoring
of intruders may be defensible under the statute. However, the statute
does not expressly authorize such monitoring. Moreover, no court has
yet had an opportunity to rule on this issue. If the courts were to
decide that such monitoring is improper, it would potentially give rise
to both criminal and civil liability for system administrators.
Therefore, absent clear guidance from the courts, we believe it is
advisable for system administrators who will be engaged in such
monitoring to give notice to those who would be subject to monitoring
that, by using the system, they are expressly consenting to such
monitoring. Since it is important that unauthorized intruders be given
notice, some form of banner notice at the time of signing on to the
system is required. Simply providing written notice in advance to only
authorized users will not be sufficient to place outside hackers on
notice.

An agency's banner should give clear and unequivocal notice to
intruders that by signing onto the system they are expressly consenting
to such monitoring. The banner should also indicate to authorized
users that they may be monitored during the effort to monitor the
intruder (e.g., if a hacker is downloading a user's file, keystroke
monitoring will intercept both the hacker's download command and the
authorized user's file). We also understand that system administrators
may in some cases monitor authorized users in the course of routine
system maintenance. If this is the case, the banner should indicate
this fact. An example of an appropriate banner might be as follows:

This system is for the use of authorized users only.
Individuals using this computer system without authority, or in
excess of their authority, are subject to having all of their
activities on this system monitored and recorded by system
personnel.

In the course of monitoring individuals improperly using this
system, or in the course of system maintenance, the activities
of authorized users may also be monitored.

Anyone using this system expressly consents to such monitoring
and is advised that if such monitoring reveals possible
evidence of criminal activity, system personnel may provide the
evidence of such monitoring to law enforcement officials.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Each site using this suggested banner should tailor it to their precise
needs. Any questions should be directed to your organization's legal
counsel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The CERT Coordination Center wishes to thank Robert S. Mueller, III, Scott
Charney and Marty Stansell-Gamm from the United States Department of
Justice for their help in preparing this Advisory.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you believe that your system has been compromised, contact the CERT
Coordination Center or your representative in FIRST (Forum of Incident
Response and Security Teams).

Internet E-mail: cert@cert.org
Telephone: 412-268-7090 (24-hour hotline)
CERT personnel answer 7:30 a.m.-6:00 p.m.EST(GMT-5)/EDT(GMT-4),
on call for emergencies during other hours.

CERT Coordination Center
Software Engineering Institute
Carnegie Mellon University
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890

Past advisories, information about FIRST representatives, and other
information related to computer security are available for anonymous FTP
from cert.org (192.88.209.5).

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 109 of 222
Subject: Re: CERT advisory
From: sativa (Spider Flux)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 05:36:11 EST
In-Reply-To: <22JFVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well I gues that settles one thing, we now know just "Who are the Brain
Police"!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 110 of 222
Subject: Re: CERT advisory
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 11:06:13 EST
In-Reply-To: <1mgiVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I always wondered about what the meant. For years now when you telnet to
certain sites they have that banner, like try SGI.COM or NEXT.COM, it
greats you with a message that says something like "by using this system
you are agreeing to be monitored and etc,etc,etc" I thought it was
obnoxious but then I never had any legal right to be on the sites I was
cruising around on, so who am I to complain. If I were a legit user I
think that would make me real mad.

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 111 of 222
Subject: Revisions to Penal Code
From: purlah (The Dc Duke)
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 93 15:14:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <3wViVB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Comments should be directed to the CPSR, the Sentencing Commission, or
one of the newsgroups/mailing lists where the discussion will no doubt
be continuing, such as Computer Underground Digest.

Organization: Computer Professionals for Social Responsibility
From: Dave Banisar <banisar@washofc.cpsr.org>
Subject: Revised Computer Crime Sentencing Guidelines

______________________________

From: Jack!

The U.S. Dept. of Justice has asked the U.S. Sentencing Commission to
promulgate a new federal sentencing guideline, Sec. 2F2.1,
specifically addressing the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1988 (18
USC 1030), with a base offense level of 6 and enhancements of 4 to 6
levels for violations of specific provisions of the statute. The new
guideline practically guarantees some period of confinement, even for
first offenders who plead guilty.

For example, the guideline would provide that if the defendant
obtained ``protected'' information (defined as ``private information,
non-public government information, or proprietary commercial
information), the offense level would be increased by two; if the
defendant disclosed protected information to any person, the offense
level would be increased by four levels, and if the defendant
distributed the information by means of "a general distribution
system," the offense level would go up six levels.

The proposed commentary explains that a "general distribution system"
includes "electronic bulletin board and voice mail systems,
newsletters and other publications, and any other form of group
dissemination, by any means."

So, in effect, a person who obtains information from the computer of
another, and gives that information to another gets a base offense
level of 10; if he used a 'zine or BBS to disseminate it, he would get
a base offense level of 12. The federal guidelines prescribe 6-12
months in jail for a first offender with an offense level of 10, and
10-16 months for same with an offense level of 12. Pleading guilty
can get the base offense level down by two levels; probation would
then be an option for the first offender with an offense level of 10
(reduced to 8). But remember: there is no more federal parole. The
time a defendant gets is the time s/he serves (minus a couple days a
month "good time").

If, however, the offense caused an economic loss, the offense level
would be increased according to the general fraud table (Sec. 2F1.1).
The proposed commentary explains that computer offenses often cause
intangible harms, such as individual privacy rights or by impairing
computer operations, property values not readily translatable to the
general fraud table. The proposed commentary also suggests that if the
defendant has a prior conviction for "similar misconduct that is not
adequately reflected in the criminal history score, an upward
departure may be warranted." An upward departure may also be
warranted, DOJ suggests, if "the defendant's conduct has affected or
was likely to affect public service or confidence" in "public
interests" such as common carriers, utilities, and institutions.

Based on the way U.S. Attorneys and their computer experts have
guesstimated economic "losses" in a few prior cases, a convicted
tamperer can get whacked with a couple of years in the slammer, a
whopping fine, full "restitution" and one to two years of supervised
release (which is like going to a parole officer). (Actually, it *is*
going to a parole officer, because although there is no more federal
parole, they didn't get rid of all those parole officers. They have
them supervise convicts' return to society.)

This, and other proposed sentencing guidelines, can be found at 57 Fed
Reg 62832-62857 (Dec. 31, 1992).

The U.S. Sentencing Commission wants to hear from YOU. Write: U.S.
Sentencing Commission, One Columbus Circle, N.E., Suite 2-500,
Washington DC 20002-8002, Attention: Public Information. Comments
must be received by March 15, 1993.

* * *

Actual text of relevant ammendments:

UNITED STATES SENTENCING COMMISSION
AGENCY: United States Sentencing Commission.
57 FR 62832

December 31, 1992

Sentencing Guidelines for United States Courts

ACTION: Notice of proposed amendments to sentencing guidelines, policy
statements, and commentary. Request for public comment. Notice of
hearing.

SUMMARY: The Commission is considering promulgating certain amendments
to the sentencing guidelines, policy statements, and commentary. The
proposed amendments and a synopsis of issues to be addressed are set
forth below. The Commission may report amendments to the Congress on
or before May 1, 1993. Comment is sought on all proposals, alternative
proposals, and any other aspect of the sentencing guidelines, policy
statements, and commentary.

DATES: The Commission has scheduled a public hearing on these proposed
amendments for March 22, 1993, at 9:30 a.m. at the Ceremonial
Courtroom, United States Courthouse, 3d and Constitution Avenue, NW.,
Washington, DC 20001.
Anyone wishing to testify at this public hearing should notify
Michael Courlander, Public Information Specialist, at (202) 273-4590
by March 1, 1993.

Public comment, as well as written testimony for the hearing,
should be received by the Commission no later than March 15, 1993, in
order to be considered by the Commission in the promulgation of
amendments due to the Congress by May 1, 1993.

ADDRESSES: Public comment should be sent to: United States Sentencing
Commission, One Columbus Circle, NE., suite 2-500, South Lobby,
Washington, DC 20002-8002, Attention: Public Information.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Michael Courlander, Public
Information Specialist, Telephone: (202) 273-4590.

* * *

59. Synopsis of Amendment: This amendment creates a new guideline
applicable to violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act of 1988
(18 U.S.C. 1030). Violations of this statute are currently subject to
the fraud guidelines at S. 2F1.1, which rely heavily on the dollar
amount of loss caused to the victim. Computer offenses, however,
commonly protect against harms that cannot be adequately quantified by
examining dollar losses. Illegal access to consumer credit reports,
for example, which may have little monetary value, nevertheless can
represent a serious intrusion into privacy interests. Illegal
intrusions in the computers which control telephone systems may
disrupt normal telephone service and present hazards to emergency
systems, neither of which are readily quantifiable. This amendment
proposes a new Section 2F2.1, which provides sentencing guidelines
particularly designed for this unique and rapidly developing area of
the law.

Proposed Amendment: Part F is amended by inserting the following
section, numbered S. 2F2.1, and captioned "Computer Fraud and Abuse,"
immediately following Section 2F1.2:

"S. 2F2.1. Computer Fraud and Abuse

(a) Base Offense Level: 6

(b) Specific Offense Characteristics
(1) Reliability of data. If the defendant altered information,
increase by 2 levels; if the defendant altered protected information,
or public records filed or maintained under law or regulation,
increase by 6 levels.

(2) Confidentiality of data. If the defendant obtained protected
information, increase by 2 levels; if the defendant disclosed
protected information to any person, increase by 4 levels; if the
defendant disclosed protected information to the public by means of a
general distribution system, increase by 6 levels.

Provided that the cumulative adjustments from (1) and (2), shall
not exceed 8.

(3) If the offense caused or was likely to cause

(A) interference with the administration of justice (civil or
criminal) or harm to any person's health or safety, or

(B) interference with any facility (public or private) or
communications network that serves the public health or safety,
increase by 6 levels.

(4) If the offense caused economic loss, increase the offense
level according to the tables in S. 2F1.1 (Fraud and Deceit). In
using those tables, include the following:

(A) Costs of system recovery, and

(B) Consequential losses from trafficking in passwords.

(5) If an offense was committed for the purpose of malicious
destruction or damage, increase by 4 levels.

(c) Cross References

(1) If the offense is also covered by another offense guideline
section, apply that offense guideline section if the resulting level
is greater. Other guidelines that may cover the same conduct include,
for example: for 18 U.S.C. 1030(a)(1), S. 2M3.2 (Gathering National
Defense Information); for 18 U.S.C. 1030(a)(3), S. 2B1.1 (Larceny,
Embezzlement, and Other Forms of Theft), S. 2B1.2 (Receiving,
Transporting, Transferring, Transmitting, or Possessing Stolen
Property), and S. 2H3.1 (Interception of Communications or
Eavesdropping); for 18 U.S.C. 1030(a)(4), S. 2F1.1 (Fraud and
Deceit), and S. 2B1.1 (Larceny, Embezzlement, and Other Forms of
Theft); for 18 U.S.C. S. 1030(a)(5), S. 2H2.1 (Obstructing an
Election or Registration), S. 2J1.2 (Obstruction of Justice), and S.
2B3.2 (Extortion); and for 18 U.S.C. S. 1030(a)(6), S. 2F1.1 (Fraud
and Deceit) and S. 2B1.1 (Larceny, Embezzlement, and Other Forms of
Theft).

Commentary

Statutory Provisions: 18 U.S.C. 1030(a)(1)-(a)(6)

Application Notes:

1. This guideline is necessary because computer offenses often harm
intangible values, such as privacy rights or the unimpaired operation
of networks, more than the kinds of property values which the general
fraud table measures. See S. 2F1.1, Note 10. If the defendant was
previously convicted of similar misconduct that is not adequately
reflected in the criminal history score, an upward departure may be
warranted.

2. The harms expressed in paragraph (b)(1) pertain to the
reliability and integrity of data; those in (b)(2) concern the
confidentiality and privacy of data. Although some crimes will cause
both harms, it is possible to cause either one alone. Clearly a
defendant can obtain or distribute protected information without
altering it. And by launching a virus, a defendant may alter or
destroy data without ever obtaining it. For this reason, the harms are
listed separately and are meant to be cumulative.

3. The terms "information," "records," and "data" are
interchangeable.

4. The term "protected information" means private information,
non-public government information, or proprietary commercial
information.

5. The term "private information" means confidential information
(including medical, financial, educational, employment, legal, and tax
information) maintained under law, regulation, or other duty (whether
held by public agencies or privately) regarding the history or status
of any person, business, corporation, or other organization.

6. The term "non-public government information" means unclassified
information which was maintained by any government agency, contractor
or agent; which had not been released to the public; and which was
related to military operations or readiness, foreign relations or
intelligence, or law enforcement investigations or operations.

7. The term "proprietary commercial information" means non-public
business information, including information which is sensitive,
confidential, restricted, trade secret, or otherwise not meant for
public distribution. If the proprietary information has an
ascertainable value, apply paragraph (b) (4) to the economic loss
rather than (b) (1) and (2), if the resulting offense level is
greater.

8. Public records protected under paragraph (b) (1) must be filed
or maintained under a law or regulation of the federal government, a
state or territory, or any of their political subdivisions.

9. The term "altered" covers all changes to data, whether the
defendant added, deleted, amended, or destroyed any or all of it.
10. A "general distribution system" includes electronic bulletin
board and voice mail systems, newsletters and other publications, and
any other form of group dissemination, by any means.

11. The term "malicious destruction or damage" includes injury to
business and personal reputations.

12. Costs of system recovery: Include the costs accrued by the
victim in identifying and tracking the defendant, ascertaining the
damage, and restoring the system or data to its original condition.
In computing these costs, include material and personnel costs, as
well as losses incurred from interruptions of service. If several
people obtained unauthorized access to any system during the same
period, each defendant is responsible for the full amount of recovery
or repair loss, minus any costs which are clearly attributable only to
acts of other individuals.

13. Consequential losses from trafficking in passwords: A defendant
who trafficked in passwords by using or maintaining a general
distribution system is responsible for all economic losses that
resulted from the use of the password after the date of his or her
first general distribution, minus any specific amounts which are
clearly attributable only to acts of other individuals. The term
"passwords" includes any form of personalized access identification,
such as user codes or names.

14. If the defendant's acts harmed public interests not adequately
reflected in these guidelines, an upward departure may be warranted.
Examples include interference with common carriers, utilities, and
institutions (such as educational, governmental, or financial
institutions), whenever the defendant's conduct has affected or was
likely to affect public service or confidence".

* * *

-------------------

This file has been provided FYI to TELECOM Digest readers. Comments
should be directed to either the CPSR or the Sentencing Commission or
other newsgroups or mailing lists (such as Computer Underground
Digest) where the discussion will no doubt be continuing.

*** Dan Cohn / Purlah / The DC Duke ***

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 112 of 222
Subject: first of all
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 93 13:21:19 EST

its not true
not at all

second of all
i dont even use amodem so im not warming even that

just the chair

third of all
i do have to agree that while information/knowledge is power
who cares how goddam powerful you are if you sit on your
hands playing butt twiddly winks all day long

this country is full of stupid people running around on
no information doing all the things that should
be done by people with information

although some knowledge is best left in the mind
for reserve or for defense
but not actually used
(ie viruses, knowing how to set off all the nuclear missile
in the US to attack the Artic circle, the fac that thug is a 42
year old housewife...etc...)

but ACTION is *NOT* power, knowledge is power
action is the utilization of pwer
action is work
its a physiics thing
kinda like the difference between kinetic and potential energy
something can store power but it cant store work
i think
shit im the EE i should know this stuff
oh well

to paraphrase the bible
information with out action is useless
or soemthing like that

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 115 of 222
Subject: Re: Lo and Behold
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 92 17:21:45 EDT

I think Phiber means that he's installed a Black Ice machine for those
muggy summer days.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 116 of 222
Subject: Where is the underground?
From: klarry (Larry Kessler)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 01:19:59 EDT

Is there anything left still going on in public or has it all moved to
conversations on IRC?

Klarry

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 117 of 222
Subject: IRC?
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 02:22:05 EDT

"Underground" conversations on IRC are great if you have any interest in
the simple-minded ravings of 14 year olds. Not for anything having any
basis in reality or fact.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 118 of 222
Subject: I beg to differ
From: king (Randy King)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 11:46:02 EDT

Whereas I don't specifically involve myself in the conversations of the
hackers on IRC that involve system security holes, programming bugs, and
password (passwd file) carcking, I do hang out on the #hack channel
(bekauze they l1ke me!@#) a lot and I *DO* know that a lot of information
is exchanged privately. I don't think much account trading takes place,
but there is plenty of conversation on how to use holes in operating
systems (Unix specifically), tricks of the networks, etc. Just the
babbling of a warshed up hick from the Midwest...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 119 of 222
Subject: irc?
From: michelle (Michelle Harris)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 16:34:03 EDT

The underground is on irc?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 120 of 222
Subject: irc
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 19:40:21 EDT

At least an immature facsimile of it.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 121 of 222
Subject: I IS MATCHURE
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 22:36:13 EDT

I don't know what the deal is with IRC, but it sure seems to fuck some
people up bad (who would otherwise be quite sensible).

Theories?

Maybe people try to treat it more like face-to-face conversation than
truly textual discussion, don't spend time thinking about what they type...

Maybe people (guys) feel that they have to resort to
bullshit/sensationalistic messages in order to get attention (because they
don't have the normal in-person physical advantages or mannerisms available).

Maybe they're all just trying to get laid.

Maybe this is the wrong place to discuss this.

dug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 122 of 222
Subject: Long Ago
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 92 23:23:59 EDT

People tried to act buff, cool (or k00l) and hip to impress people they
never met FTF. War Boards abounded, and hackers were very secretive. I'm
beginning to think the serious hackers have stayed serious, and the
r0dentz have come out to play a new game . . .

"Hey, meyan I'm the k00lst hacker, EVree1! (& I pir8t warez 2)"

I only wish the cat wouldn't go away so often; the mice play too much.

Chrome Sync

[scary, I may be agreeing with phiber ...]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 123 of 222
Subject: ...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 00:53:02 EDT

Yeah, you wouldn't want to be viewed as part of the conspiracy!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 124 of 222
Subject: Re: I IS MATCHURE
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 01:31:37 EDT

doug (Douglas Luce) writes:

> I don't know what the deal is with IRC, but it sure seems to fuck some
> people up bad (who would otherwise be quite sensible).
>
> Theories?
>
> Maybe people try to treat it more like face-to-face conversation than
> truly textual discussion, don't spend time thinking about what they type...

IRC is like being on TV. TV fucks people in the head. The plastics
revolt, and there you have it. Simple, isn't it?

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 125 of 222
Subject: . .. ...
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 02:03:10 EDT

Conspiracy?

I run them all ... ha ha ha!

They were all after me, but I got them!

I am not a number, I am a free man!

Chrome Sync

PS: FTF is better, but so hard to accomodate. Besides, how many fifteen
year-olds can act bad and cool around people who bench their fathers and
their sorry butts. <Swelled head mode DISABLED>

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 126 of 222
Subject: "in the head"
From: mcmullen (John F. McMullen)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 15:29:45 EDT

From Thug: "TV fucks people in the head"

Sounds anatomically impossible to me but, in the age of cyborgs, who knows?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 127 of 222
Subject: Re: "in the head"
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 16:21:17 EDT

But, John, maybe that's what "mind fuck" means. Some folks never heard of
PBS and the other stuff. Gotto go tape rem & stimpy.....

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 128 of 222
Subject: I AM DEE CAT!
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 92 21:10:15 EDT

WHAT EES EET, MAAAAHN?!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 129 of 222
Subject: Re: I AM DEE CAT!
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 13:15:46 EDT

phiber (Phiber Optik) writes:

> WHAT EES EET, MAAAAHN?!

do you perchance have dread locks?
maybe a big piece of white paper stuffed with
oh i dont know in you mouth
that just happens to have a really stupid grin on it?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 130 of 222
Subject: underground
From: zachs (John Zachs)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 14:53:36 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Z5qcPB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Is there still any underground or is it all guys on IRC or cookbook
cracks or what Phiber said? VimH also said that the underground was gone I
think and that the people had found other things to do. Is there anything
left right now?

JZ

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 131 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: king (Randy King)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 17:36:43 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2NVcPB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Of course there's an underground...

But it's UNDERGROUND

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 132 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 92 17:43:45 EDT
In-Reply-To: <w83cPB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeah, there's an "underground". That romantic fantasy people talk about
when they feel they're being oppressed.

Get real.

And open your eyes to Ren and Stimpy.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 133 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: zachs (John Zachs)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 03:16:58 EDT
In-Reply-To: <smToPB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I almost see the underground as being a juvinille-delinquint stage that
people go through to reach something else. I don't see anyone who has been
around for years still being active, the members list on here has a lot of
names from the basement like what 5 years ago? None of them are doing
anything anymore, if they are they sure aren't talking about it on boards.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 134 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 10:35:00 EDT
In-Reply-To: <mTXoPB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

i'm going to throw up.

what is this fascination with viruses? the only thing worse than lame
hacks is hype glorifying lame hacks.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 135 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: siva (Stu Klingman)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 13:13:23 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2ciPPB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Not enough caffeine, hey doug?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 136 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 14:13:49 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

>
> Why is it now that Ahmed can reduce our very lives to a multi-story
> apartment building? Strange things indeed.. Ahmed, that's a very
> interesting table. And where are you supposed to be in that table? By
> your over-simplifications, I'd say you belong in the penthouse. Still, I
> agree that Perot is at Level 666 underground.

he did make a claim saying that that is not what
it was like, but just a guess at a way to interpret it

and i think it might have worked.. except for all the wierd
stuff like drug dealers and stuff like that

(or obviously im not in the underground because that is all it is made of...)

i would have to say that i am along with the guys who think that there is an
underground somewhere and there always will be
being underground just means that you either are illegal or
hiding from the government in some way

how many boards have you been on where you can only get on
if someone on the board refers you?
this is a symptom of undergroundness

but what the underground is doign and whether it is useful is another thing..

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Post: 137 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: sn (SN/DPAK)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 21:16:39 EDT

doug (Douglas Luce) writes:

> i'm going to throw up.
>
> what is this fascination with viruses? the only thing worse than lame
> hacks is hype glorifying lame hacks.
>
>
>
>

...or hype glorifying lame hackerz

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Post: 138 of 222
Subject: Virus Break
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 12:46:12 EDT
In-Reply-To: <g3BqPB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

How much do viri have to do with the underground? And isn't there already
a forum (of the many fora here) to discuss it on.

For the sake of good hypocrisy, though, I think one of the greatest
demonstrations of skill & knowledge is creating a virus that can elude all
the modern, current, snazzy anti-viral s/ware. However (!!) once you've
proven you can, there's no point in doing more, a la fraggin' someone's
hard disk, etc. How about just a simple "hello," followed by auto-eradication.

Or is skilled and noble out-of-style these days?

As far as an underground, I think it's just a congregation area for those
of certain beliefs and persuations who are not readily accepted by society
and/or the go ernment.
(eeek! v I dropped a v!)

So the Underground may include illegal drug users, hackers, musicians who
haven't gained acceptance, etc. etc.

People, who for the most part, are being dinged-on by Uncle Sam for dumb
reasons. Or because government indoctrination (largely at public schools)
has changed "society's" value, and closed the minds of the masses.

The free-thinking libertarian,

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 139 of 222
Subject: Re: Virus Break
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 13:44:57 EDT

chrmsync (Craig Stockwell) writes:

> For the sake of good hypocrisy, though, I think one of the greatest
> demonstrations of skill & knowledge is creating a virus that can elude all
> the modern, current, snazzy anti-viral s/ware. However (!!) once you've
> proven you can, there's no point in doing more, a la fraggin' someone's
> hard disk, etc. How about just a simple "hello," followed by auto-eradication

actually i think the laotian dirge being played every 483rd disc access
is pretty damn hysterical
(i know i would be annoyed, but you would laugh at least once every ten
times it does it... well depending on how long it really is..)
(it would be really good if you were just running stuff in the background
and you were trying to make a move on a date when it went off)
'whats that noise darling?'
'oh, well umm...see.. my computer likes singing to me everyonce in awhile...'

i think it would be cool if a virus ran a virsu scanner
and then deleted itself (or maybe left itself so you could use the scanner)

> The free-thinking libertarian,
umm... yeah

*cough* damn *cough* yaffers *cough :) *cough*

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Post: 140 of 222
Subject: Re: Virus Break
From: inhuman (inhuman inhuman)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 15:54:11 EDT
In-Reply-To: <mTLRPB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

There's nothing particularly tough about making a virus that
avoids todays "high tech detection software". It's like making a
criminal who's not on the FBIs Most Wanted list, because that's all those
virus detection softwares are. Just a list of strings in virii to look
for... It's pretty easy to make a new one that they'll have to put in the
next update of the virus scanner.
Viruses are one of the most fascinating pieces of programming,
but the indiscriminate destruction that they wreak is pointless.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 141 of 222
Subject: Hypocrisy
From: chrmsync (Craig Stockwell)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 22:16:30 EDT
In-Reply-To: <1sRRPB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Actually, Hot Black, there are two YAFfer factions; the Trads (traditional
conservatives [like the Republican Party in the 60's]) and the Libs
(Libertarians).

How many groups on campus support the decriminalization of drugs, free
speech, gun rights, and
homosexual/heterosexual/bisexual/trisexual/quadsexual/quintsexual rights
all at the same time?

Don't grumble at me then!
(oy, yeah, since they're private property, and it's your tongue, we
support tongue studs too ...)

As far as The Underground goes (really, I'm trying to get back to the
topic, I assure you ... uh, somehow) ...

Gosh, my train of thought has been derailed. I'll write more later.
Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 142 of 222
Subject: Viruses & YAF
From: wlnjr (Lee Nussbaum)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 00:40:41 EDT

inhuman (inhuman inhuman) writes:

> There's nothing particularly tough about making a virus that
> avoids todays "high tech detection software". It's like making a
> criminal who's not on the FBIs Most Wanted list, because that's all those
> virus detection softwares are. Just a list of strings in virii to look
> for... It's pretty easy to make a new one that they'll have to put in the
> next update of the virus scanner.

Yeah, although the Mac's 'suspicious-activity' detectors are reasonably
good, when people have them turned on (at least they were against the
viruses the Mac had a year or so ago, when I last made heavy use of
any Macs...) -- since executing code on a Mac is limited to specific kinds
of resources, actions upon such are comparatively noticeable. Still
probably easy to get around, and most people probably 'ok' suspicious
activity, so not much of a deterrence.

---
hotblack (Dana Watanabe) says:
>> The free-thinking libertarian,
>umm... yeah

>*cough* damn *cough* yaffers *cough :) *cough*

YAF? Eek.. my only experience with YAF was a small bunch of
pro-interventionist, pro-ARENA YAF protesters co-protested a CISPES march
in DC in Spring '90.

I consider myself Libertarian, but YAF is damned spooky. Then again, I
came at Libertarianism from somewhere vaguely near the
Democratic-Socialist-Left, so it may just be a conditioning-and-exposure
thing. I'd heard a little about YAF since my '90 observation, but I was
under the impression that it had been pretty much a traditional
conservative organization since the early-to-mid-70's...

- Lee

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Post: 143 of 222
Subject: Re: Viruses & YAF
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 02:05:34 EDT
In-Reply-To: <i7FsPB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I disagree with most destructive viruses, note most, not all! But
I too find them fascinating and the possible uses they can be put to make
for interesting food for thought.
Shit ,my connection is trashed and the net conection it down, I'll get
back to this later

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 144 of 222
Subject: Re: Viruses & YAF
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 16:32:19 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ZR3aqB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Of what value is a virus? Are talking about the existing of a program or
their spread? Like nukes, it's one thing to possess one, but quite another
to unleash it. Cliff Stoll's analogy seems useful: Spreading viruses is like
putting razor blades in the sand at the beach.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 145 of 222
Subject: Re: Viruses & YAF
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 17:33:52 EDT

cudigest (Jim Thomas) writes:

> Of what value is a virus? Are talking about the existing of a program or
> their spread? Like nukes, it's one thing to possess one, but quite another
> to unleash it. Cliff Stoll's analogy seems useful: Spreading viruses is like
> putting razor blades in the sand at the beach.
>

Razor blades don't replicate. They are easily found and removed, all one
has to do is to drag a giant magnet accross the beach from the back of a
pickup truck. Stoll is a simplistic idiot, but some people haven't
figured that out yet.

A better anology is contaminating the city's water supply with a
strain of bubonic plague highly resistant to anti-biotics. That is what
this latest generation of PC viruses reminds me of. They've now got
highly potent polymorphic mutating DOS-imbedding/parasitic viruses that
are nearly impossible to detect or eradicate.
One PC virus I recently heard about detects if you have a modem, and then
within a matter of minutes, proceeds to destroy the NVRAM by re-writing it
(AT&W) at about 50 times per second. As most tech jocks know, the so-called
NVRAM is actually EEPROM, which has a duty life of less than 10,000
write-erase cycles. As an added bonus, this virus checks for keyboard
activity, and if it notices that you have been away from the keyboard for
more than a few minutes, it begins dialing 911 repeatedly on your modem
silently (ATM0, another lovely command).

There's also a new virus going around which detects if your BIOS is in
Flash EPROM, and the proceeds to erase it. From that point on, the machine
won't even try to boot, it just sits there, all dead when you turn it on. The
only known fix is to send your motherboard back to the manufacturer to get
it replaced/reprogrammed.

So that's what the 12-15 year old kiddies are up to these days.
Lovely, ain't it? It does my heart good to see such playful intellectualism
on the part of our nations bright, but malicious youth. Got bless hackers,
god bless America!

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 146 of 222
Subject: Re: Viruses & YAF
From: king (Randy King)
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 17:17:06 EDT
In-Reply-To: <63yFqB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Truly frightening...

BUT! I personally do not consider virus writers to be inherently part of
the hacker community per se. Of course, there can be some overlapping of
people who write virii hacking or vice versa, but I think there is, with
few exceptions, any application of hacking by means of virii (see
_Shockwave Rider_, etc.).

At best, it is hacking by Levy's definition (programming) and perfecting
the code to do exactly what you desire...but then again, I'd say anything
malicious in intent does not exactly fit Levy's definition either..

TK

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 147 of 222
Subject: Re: Viruses & YAF
From: darkstar (DarkStar)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 92 03:28:30 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8ysHqB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I personally don't care much for virii, or rather the usual application of
them. I repsect the programming that goes into making one and I admire the
detection-avoidance schemes that are used, but when it comes to damage, I
find this very distasteful.

I have used a variety of computer systems in the last 10 years and I feel
that doing damage is NOT one of the options to wisely use the systems for
the tools that they are. I don't agree with the ethic that I saw in The
Plague's 2600 article a while back that (in my opinion) does a shoddy job
of justifying doing damage to someone elses' system.

I DO feel that creative uses of systems should be encouraged, however. I
personally have not kept up with all the advances in computing technology
over the last 2-3 years while I have other areas of life that I am more
focused on and taking up much time.

Anyway, that's my $.02.

DarkStar of the Universe
Legion Of Decency!!!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 148 of 222
Subject: Re: Viruses & YAF
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 92 12:55:12 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8LmJRB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

> DarkStar of the Universe
> Legion Of Decency!!!

Nice tag line.

Chrome Sync
Minion of Decency!!!

PS: Anyone want to start a new topic line?

Chrome Sync

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 149 of 222
Subject: PumpCon
From: system (System Administrator)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 03:02:13 EST
In-Reply-To: <PuckRB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The following will appear on Newsbytes, a copyrighted service . It is
reposted her with the express consent of the authors:

(NEWS)(GOVERNMENT)(NYC)(00001)

Computer Access Arrests In NY 11/03/92
GREENBURGH, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1992 NOV 3 (NB) -- The
Greenburgh, New York Police Department has announced the arrest of
three individuals, Randy P. Sigman, 40; Ronald G. Pinz, Jr, 21; and Byron
J. Woodard, 18 for the alleged crimes of Unauthorized Use Of A computer
and Attempted Computer Trespass, both misdemeanors. Also arrested was
Jason A. Brittain, 22 in satisfaction of a State of Arizona Fugitive From
Justice warrant.

The arrests took place in the midst of an "OctoberCon" or "PumpCon"
party billed as a "hacker get-together" at the Marriott Courtyard Hotel in
Greenburgh. . The arrests were made at approximately 4:00 AM on
Sunday morning, November 1st. The three defendants arrested for
computer crimes were granted $1,000 bail and will be arraigned on
Friday, November 6th.

Newsbytes sources said that the get together, which had attracted up to
sixty people, had dwindled to approximately twenty-five when, at 10:00
Saturday night, the police, in response to noise complaints arrived and
allegedly found computers in use accessing systems over telephone lines.
The police held the twenty-five for questioning and called in Westchester
County Assistant District Attorney Kenneth Citarella, a prosecutor versed
in computer crime, for assistance. During the questioning period, the
information on Brittain as a fugitive from Arizona was obtained and at
4:00 the three alleged criminal trespassers and Brittain were charged.

Both Lt. DeCarlo of the Greenburgh police and Citarella told Newsbytes
that the investigation is continuing and that no further information is
available at this time.

(Barbara E. McMullen & John F. McMullen/19921103)

John F. McMullen mcmullen@mindvox.phantom.com Consultant,
knxd@maristb.bitnet mcmullen@well.sf.ca.us Writer,
70210.172@compuserve.com mcmullen@panix.com Student,
GEnie - nb.nyc mcmullen@eff.org Teacher

-- Us (Perhaps THEM, but definitely not THOSE PEOPLE)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 150 of 222
Subject: Re: PumpCon
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 22:03:05 EST
In-Reply-To: <e7FPTB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

A lot of weird things are happening, everyone is getting paranoid like
there's another sweep going through the east coast now. From word I've
heard, people who were picked up at the Octobercon, some of them have been
served with search warrants and more are on the way. Spooky shit for
halloween, no joke.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 151 of 222
Subject: Re: PumpCon
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 23:53:15 EST
In-Reply-To: <uZ12TB10w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

How accurate is that info? I know everyone is paranoid as fuck and getting
rid of all their shit, whatever it might have been, so if the local cops
busted pumpcon, the secret service probably isn't thrilled about it, since
their targets are busy dumping the evidence into the trash, or storing it
some place safe until it all blows over.

I don't know how true the crackdown is, but I'm real sure about its
effects right now. If this is a SS thing, they fucked it up, not secret
and making everyone wake up and remember they're not living in a free
country.

The Dead Shall Rise

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Post: 152 of 222
Subject: Re: PumpCon
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 22:01:40 EST

deadboy (The Dead) writes:

> How accurate is that info? I know everyone is paranoid as fuck and getting
> rid of all their shit, whatever it might have been, so if the local cops
> busted pumpcon, the secret service probably isn't thrilled about it, since
> their targets are busy dumping the evidence into the trash, or storing it
> some place safe until it all blows over.
>
> I don't know how true the crackdown is, but I'm real sure about its
> effects right now. If this is a SS thing, they fucked it up, not secret
> and making everyone wake up and remember they're not living in a free
> country.

Damn straight, what's happening again is a damn shame, if this blows up
into another series of raids the size of sundevil that will truly suck and
screw up the online situation even worse then it is today, with everyone
afraid to even make friends or exchange phone numbers because the person
you're talking to could get busted tomorrow.
Whatever happened to the constitution?

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 153 of 222
Subject: Subliminal Fascism
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 14:40:27 EST
In-Reply-To: <HLV4TB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I dont know how everyone in washington feels about this stuf
but from what i have heard, gore seemed pretty hip
on having a nationwide net going strong

i think that if the SS tries to have a big crackdown
it _might_ backfire and we can hopefully get some rights for computer
criminals, i mean other than worse ones than they give drug dealers

it could happen really it could...

this coming form the guy who thought perot might actually win...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 154 of 222
Subject: Re: Subliminal Fascism
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 20:37:29 EST
In-Reply-To: <5T65TB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

This si coming from someone who watched through sundevil, I was on
probation for a telephone offense, so I was not actively hacking or
anything, but I was watching the situation VERY closely...

The SS busts at 2600 seem terribly familiar. Groups got 'visited' with
some regularity and you could assume that at ANY gethering of hackers,
there would be a federal officer observing from somewhere (or from
within)

I don't have sundevil stats (does someone at EFF have number of busts and
number of convictions data) but all I can say is that probably 1 out of
every three active hackers got at least a phone call or visit due to
'suspicious behavior' And many of these had questionable seizures of
computer equipment (this is according to my own eyes and ears, circa
sundevil)

All I can say is that during those months, you were VERY careful about
who you met with, talked to, and gave your phone to, cause anyone you met
could be a cop, or turn states evidence (one of the most unethical things
a hacker could ever do, IMHO) It just plain sucked.

I don't want to see this happen again, but it scares me that PUMP-CON has
had such a problem (although carding a hotel room is a bit MUCH) could it
be another sundevil, I dont know. There have been an awful lot of busts
of late, just as the hacker scene was starting to come out from being so
'underground'

We'll see what happens at HOHO-CON, although I cant be there (have to be
in Pennsylvania working on a concert stage (such is the techie's life))
Id suggest keeping the 'questionable'computer activities out of a hotel
room to a minimum, or at least connect your terminal to another line
(like the hotel fax line? :) ) so its a bit harder to find you.

-Tox

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 155 of 222
Subject: Pumpcon, Etc.
From: icom (Thomas Icom)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 14:55:26 EST
In-Reply-To: <7cm6TB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The search warrents that were served on the four 914 people were
unrelated to Pumpcon. I was at Pumpcon, and the primary reason the cops
were called was because the noise level was pissing off the other
customers. There were rumors that some Telco flags were triggered, but
I've been unable to confirm or disprove them.
-Icom

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 156 of 222
Subject: Re: underground
From: madpoet (John Davidson, Jr.)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 20:11:21 EST
In-Reply-To: <2NVcPB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I was reading about the demise of the Underground & I was curious if
Scan Man & Pirate-80 are still around... anybody know?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 157 of 222
Subject: scan man
From: inhuman (inhuman inhuman)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 21:18:01 EST

Yeah, scan man and P-80 are still around. He's putting together
a CD-ROM of p/h texts along with bootleg.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 158 of 222
Subject: Re: scan man
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 01:17:46 EST

inhuman (inhuman inhuman) writes:

> Yeah, scan man and P-80 are still around. He's putting together
> a CD-ROM of p/h texts along with bootleg.
>

Bootleg is still around too? I remember getting that old 40 column
uppercase crap...hacker magazine I think it was called, in 85 or 86, he
must be what 50 now?

-tC

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Post: 159 of 222
Subject: Re: scan man
From: richie (Rich Siegel)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 14:54:27 EST
In-Reply-To: <BcJBuB9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Listen. You guys have a lot of correct information. Here is the real
scoop concering pirates. They call "elite" bbs's where they can exchange
pirated/cracked, software from all the leading companies. Most people on
the systems are high school kids doing nothing more than downloading
Origins newest Wing Commander games or whatever. They do not feel they
are hurting anyone. Also, most people you guys consider pirates are not
into virus writing, phreaking, etc. Those are the ones who always get
into trouble. Take it from someone who knows. If you have any comments
or questions, I am sure I could answer them on this topic.

Oh, I noticed a while back why viruses are written. One STUPID answer.
See the "elite" form groups in which they compete to supply the most
warez to the elite who are not in groups. And in the competition, they
try to wipe each others "warez" (AKA NEWEST softWARES) by writing viruses
that are devious.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 160 of 222
Subject: Re: scan man
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 16:14:38 EST

richie (Rich Siegel) writes:

> Listen. You guys have a lot of correct information. Here is the real
> scoop concering pirates. They call "elite" bbs's where they can exchange
> pirated/cracked, software from all the leading companies. Most people on
> the systems are high school kids doing nothing more than downloading
> Origins newest Wing Commander games or whatever. They do not feel they
> are hurting anyone. Also, most people you guys consider pirates are not
> into virus writing, phreaking, etc. Those are the ones who always get
> into trouble. Take it from someone who knows. If you have any comments
> or questions, I am sure I could answer them on this topic.
>
> Oh, I noticed a while back why viruses are written. One STUPID answer.
> See the "elite" form groups in which they compete to supply the most
> warez to the elite who are not in groups. And in the competition, they
> try to wipe each others "warez" (AKA NEWEST softWARES) by writing viruses
> that are devious.

Dude, other then being in the totally wrong place (hacking - the
underground) isn't (ethics - piracy) a most of the people right here
probably don't care either way. Your message was sort of on target about
most of what you said. I'll reply more in the piracy area.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 161 of 222
Subject: Confusion of previous
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 22:08:46 EST
In-Reply-To: <4uocuB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Pirate-80 wasn't a pirate board, it was a phreak/hack files board that
wasn't anything that special from the buffers I've seen. Was never on it,
so I could be off base, but Bootleggers I can say certainly sucked.

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 162 of 222
Subject: Re: scan man
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 01:45:47 EST
In-Reply-To: <BcJBuB9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeah he's an old one, that's for sure.

Life sucks; live virtually.

tmh

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 163 of 222
Subject: Rich Siegel
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 01:48:33 EST

That has got to be the most desperate, worst explination, feeble attempt
at profiling hacker ethics I have ever seen. Get a fucking clue.

tmh

And don't even *think* of replying to this.

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Post: 164 of 222
Subject: Re: Rich Siegel
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:25:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <mFFDuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I just HAD to reply to yyour post, Hatter.

P-80 wasn't a bad board, at least the way I remember it. There were
better ones at the time, but its longevity is clearly testimony to its
commitment, if anything.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

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Post: 165 of 222
Subject: Re: Rich Siegel
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 01:05:16 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZLPeuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeahh P-80 did have it's day; But naturally there were far superior.

tmh

Depends on your virtual view I would suspect

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Post: 166 of 222
Subject: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 14:04:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <H48euB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Ahem -

This is a little note that's aimed at 3 people in particular, who know who
they are, or certainly will by the end of this message:

When you wander out across the net, or into IRC or wherever you choose
to roam. Please bear in mind that it still is "the frontier" out there
to a great extent, and everyone you meet is not necessarily going to be
all that helpful.

For your personal edification:

Gene Spafford is not the secret head of the ElYtEzT HaQ/FreQ Gr()()p
on earth, who will open the doors to his kingdom if you send him a
lot of email that includes your home #, address, and lustful desires
for eunuchs accounts.

CERT is also not a gr()0p that will grant you l0tz 0f phree accounts
& allow you 2 j0iN them and be eLytE.

People in IRC who say type: /dcc the /etc/passwd file do0d for a c00l
trick, MIGHT POSSIBLY be mis-representing their true intent towards
you, and wish you ill.

Sending a whole bunch of DeBuG mEsSAGEZ!@#!@# at the smtp port for 20
minutes straight, and then telnetting into Vox using the same account
you just did all of that from; doesn't do the best possible job of
HiDiNG w]-[0 eWe reLLE R!

Finally; finger is turned off. No matter how many times you type it,
it won't wake up, realize that you want it to be here now, and then
start to function. You CANNOT finger into phantom.com! Duh.... gee?
Really?

SeD, GrEP & AwK! Fun For HoURZ!

:ld

)> Patrick ... [digital@phantom.com]

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Post: 167 of 222
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 16:31:57 EST

digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:

> Gene Spafford is not the secret head of the ElYtEzT HaQ/FreQ Gr()()p
> on earth, who will open the doors to his kingdom if you send him a
> lot of email that includes your home #, address, and lustful desires
> for eunuchs accounts.
>
> CERT is also not a gr()0p that will grant you l0tz 0f phree accounts
> & allow you 2 j0iN them and be eLytE.

Bahahahahhahaahaha, well maybe some people deserve to be taught a lesson
about being stupid since they have corrupt motives in the first place.

> People in IRC who say type: /dcc the /etc/passwd file do0d for a c00l
> trick, MIGHT POSSIBLY be mis-representing their true intent towards
> you, and wish you ill.

Then again, who cares. Nothing "bad" works on the Vox irc client, its all
removed. You can't do a /dcc anything or fork a shell or do /exec or
anything else that gets your privs over shell.

> Sending a whole bunch of DeBuG mEsSAGEZ!@#!@# at the smtp port for 20
> minutes straight, and then telnetting into Vox using the same account
> you just did all of that from; doesn't do the best possible job of
> HiDiNG w]-[0 eWe reLLE R!

That's because mindvox has weirdly modified services that dont respond to
debug commands, scripts, or anything else. Humph! Not that I ever tried of
course, I just think that's how it is ;)

> SeD, GrEP & AwK! Fun For HoURZ!

Ain't that the truth. God bless and pass the perl

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 168 of 222
Subject: p-80
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Wed, 25 Nov 92 21:42:05 EST

hey, just curious, why are you guys talking about p-80 int he past tense?

Laughing Gas

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Post: 169 of 222
Subject: Re: p-80
From: tmh (The Mad Hatter)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 14:49:57 EST
In-Reply-To: <u1RTuB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

LG: Good point. Didn't realize we were. That's pretty funny.

tmh

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Post: 170 of 222
Subject: Re: p-80
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 18:57:10 EST
In-Reply-To: <yLN1uB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, I was because I haven't bothered to scan my 1986 version of Qmodem
for the number, which means, basically, that I haven't really THOUGHT
about P-80 since I went to college. When something is part of your past,
its easy to talk about it in past tense.

Still, it was a good point.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

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Post: 171 of 222
Subject: Re: p-80
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Sun, 29 Nov 92 21:46:34 EST
In-Reply-To: <Z2y1uB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I just thought maybe it went down when I turned my back.. I've never
called it, but people keep popping up and using it as a reference, and
it's apparently still around. Kinda like Yoyodyne.. is it still up? I
know it was at the bginning of this year..

Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 172 of 222
Subject: Yoyodyne
From: yoyodyne (Jeff Zimmerman)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 12:16:41 EST
In-Reply-To: <Bw71uB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

lgas,

Sadly enough, after almost 6 years, Yoyodyne left the scene. I wish
Macros and I (Cj) could have kept it going, but we couldn't keep it
running remotely. I am seriously considering putting up Yoyodyne West
someday. Any interest? Anyone besides lgas remember Yoyodyne?

Cj (yoyodyne@phantom.com)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 173 of 222
Subject: Re: Yoyodyne
From: inhuman (inhuman inhuman)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 20:08:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <i7a3uB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I was calling yoyodyne just a few months ago. i recently called
it again to get a "number has been changed recording. I didn't bother to
call the new number.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 174 of 222
Subject: yoyodyne
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 01:07:10 EST

Hmm, well, didn't expect you to turn up. Nice to see you are still
around. Too bad the board isn't. Unfortunately, I can't say I would be
able to call if the board did go back up, unless it was YoYodyne-East,
and local to me.. :-) But just for nostalgic reasons, itw ould be nice
to see it back up.

Laughing Gas
LG@STORMKING.COM

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 175 of 222
Subject: Re: Yoyodyne
From: universe (Universe)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 01:05:04 EST
In-Reply-To: <F2w3uB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hello- I remember the BBS yoyodyne...I can't recall if I was on it or not,
I was on so many BBS's from 85-89 that I have really lost track.

Regarding P-80: seems like an instituion. Has been up for a long time
now...when did it start, 1980 or something like that? I do have some old
buffers from P-80 from the early 80's, but those are not as interesting as
the earlier ones that I have, like from the BBS called 8BBS which was in
California. I have some messages from '79 and '80 saved in files on my old
Commodore computer, which is now gathering dust. I would sure like to
share these posts with people, but have no way to get them to any other
system right now, if anyone has any nifty ideas feel free to let me know!

Other posts of interest: Atlantis, OSUNY, Phreak Klass 2600, Metal Shop,
and others...there was talk earlier on about getting some of these put up
onto mindvox, but I havent heard anything else about that. What;'s the scopp?

Peace,
Universe

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 176 of 222
Subject: Re: Yoyodyne
From: tm (Terminal Mode)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 03:29:32 EST
In-Reply-To: <6e65uB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Literal copies of the posts, no way. My buffers are in safe hands now.
Although, please, if someone has something to share, do post it. My ears
are your ears.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 177 of 222
Subject: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 92 18:46:17 EST
In-Reply-To: <X4B6uB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Calling all hackers and crackers and phreakers

- HELP NEEDED -

HacKing ImpAired NeeD nOt ApplY

I've always maintained that there is really no need to ever worry
about the wrong parties cracking into any open encryption method.

This is a small call for help for a personal project that requires a
very special mindset. You either are or are not of that particular
type and either will or will not be able to follow this through.

%^)-:DERIAPMI0GNIKCAHEhTRoFTONsiELiFsIhT%$#@
*(DnAEVAHohW-EMoS$3@MorF&*eCivdAEkiLdLuoW3$I
$@#LlA^&ECNavDAnISKNahT!OD%$LlitSylBAbOrP$#@

%$eMaG%$EGRaL%$eno%$si%$taht%$SBB%$A%$gninnuR%$ma%$I%$
%I%$dnA%$FFo%$gOl%$Ot%$ot%$no%$gol%$moRf%$"reKcah"%$Fo
%dna%$spagpotS%$skcirt%$TAen%$yna%$rOf%$GnikOOl%$Saw%$
%ro%$hcus%$ro%$setodcena%$ro%$serianoitseuq%$Ro%$sRooD
%%^^&&**&^^$%%$#.spit%$NGiSed%$ro%$OfNi%$LuFesu%$rehto

muroF%$GninRael%$a%$Eb%$Ot%$DEDnetni%$oSlA%$si%$SihT%$
%EcaPSegalliVrebyC%$EniLno%$eht%$oT%$noitcudORTni%$dna
ylkciuq%$os%$drawot%$GniCar%$sevlesruo%$DniF%$eW%$taHt
%%$a%$HtiW%$sretne%$rekcah%$laitnetop%$Eht%$Won%$ThgiR
%$NoitAmrofni%$meTsys%$eVired%$tSum%$dNa%$0%$fo%$leveL
oht%$sELIF%$elbissecca%$dna%$sniTelluB%$deilppus%$MorF
%%$a%$htiw%$deTcetorP%$droWssap%$si%$aera%$elif%$Eht%$
%%$drowssap%$esruoc%$fo%$si%$hcihw%$drowssap%$eulc%$on

%%%serugif%$eh%$sa%$ecnavda%$lliw%$rekcah%$etutsa%$eht%$ereht%$morF
%%%sgniht%$gniyas%$seulc%$txet%$nialp%$eht%$sdnif%$dna%$tuo%$sgniht
%%$eht%$no%$edir%$a%$ekat%$dna%$hcus%$dna%$hcus%$hsup%$>eman<%$ekil
wen%$a%$ro%$deyalpsid%$si%$elif%$TxeT%$a%$emiT%$a%$HcuS%$tA%$yaWbuS
%%%%%sdnammoc%$rehto%$rof%$swolla%$taht%$detnarg%$si%$level%$ssecca
%%wolla%$sdnammoc%$rehto%$dna%$suneM%$ehT%$DESu%$dna%$dnuof%$eb%$ot
%%%%eht%$dna%$drowssap%$,tes%$unem%$,level%$ssecca%$yb%$ssecca%$rof
%%%%%$ot%$deit%$snoitca%$elpitlum%$rof%$stpircs%$IniM%$fo%$gnidliub
%%%%%%%%%^%^$^%ER$%%^*&^**%&^&^&&$%^$%.sSERp%$yek%$ro%$dnammoc%$eno

eht%$rof%$rooD%$DEF%$a%$noisivne%$snalP%$dna%$senalP%$erutuF%$EhT
%%keeG%$dna%$#%$EGDAB%$ekil%$saera%$hTiW%$sepyt%$UIEL%$gninrecsiD
%%dna%$>led<>tla<>lrtc<%$ssecca%$elif%$terces%$sa%$llew%$sa%$keep
%ni%$dda%$ot%$EKIL%$osla%$dluow%$I%$.srelggoB%$dniM%$yTfin%$rehto
%%$ton%$-%$seulav%$tniop%$rehgih%$rof%$tes%$noitcurtnoC%$SuriV%$a
%%selpcinirp%$ngised%$doog%$evig%$ot%$tub%$eno%$dliub%$yllaer%$ot
%%%%$iiriv%$fo%$tcudorp%$dne%$eht%$fo%$noitcurtsnoc%$eht%$sdrawot
%%%snoitalupinam%$dna%$gnicruos%$atad%$fo%$erutuf%$eht%$,stobwonk

%%$stniH%$Spit%$yna%$rof%$ECNAVDA%$ni%$sknaht%$erofeB%$dias%$I%$sA
tnemelpmi%$ot%$woh%$tuoba%$evah%$yam%$uoy%$taht%$ecivda%$rehto%$ro
%$$$@#%$syaw%$suoruomuh%$dna%$citsilaer%$erom%$a%$ni%$saedi%$eseht

Prepared by RORRIM ASSoCiAtes in conjunction with S&R TEXED

Exclusively for The UnDerGrounD SubWay

604-590-1147

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Post: 178 of 222
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: carlos (Carlos dominguez)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 09:26:56 EST

critic (Terry Palfrey) writes:

> Calling all hackers and crackers and phreakers
>
> - HELP NEEDED -
>
> HacKing ImpAired NeeD nOt ApplY
>
>

sorry ... I left my Captain Crunch decoder ring at home..

_/_/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/
_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_ _/ FIDO 1:278/706
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ RIME ATLWIN
_/_/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/

email => carlos@dorsai.com -or- carlos@mindvox.phantom.com

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 179 of 222
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 13:27:02 EST

carlos (Carlos dominguez) writes:

> critic (Terry Palfrey) writes:
>
> > Calling all hackers and crackers and phreakers
> >
> > - HELP NEEDED -
> >
> > HacKing ImpAired NeeD nOt ApplY
> >
> >
>
> sorry ... I left my Captain Crunch decoder ring at home..

Yeah, shit, me too.

Dude, that was lame.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 180 of 222
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 15:26:28 EST
In-Reply-To: <R4wkVB9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

This Dude or that D00D?

Pullease clarify.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 181 of 222
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: siva (The Destroyer)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 16:11:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <Tm3kVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, i think he's talking about the lame-assed prepubescent backwards
text that you used to pseudo-encrypt the message with.

At least, I think that's what he was saying, I dunno.

I mean, hey, I thought it was really cool!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 182 of 222
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: jagged (Alexander Garrett)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 18:51:38 EST
In-Reply-To: <2o5kVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I particularily liked the palindrome stuck in the middle. That's what
gave it away for me.

Didn't someone have a BBS like that about five years
ago called Pandemonium? Based in Milwaukee, I think.

Ceci n'est pas une .sig.
--Lj

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 183 of 222
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 21:06:42 EST
In-Reply-To: <R5BLVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Critic: What "hacker" game are you talking about? (yes I was lame enough
to write a little program to turn your text around) The Steve Jackson
one? Sounds sorta interesting... why the elEeTness, though?

jagged: The only Pandemonium I remember, which was about 4 years ago was
in North Carolina. It could be completely different, though. I like
your sig, by the way. :-)

---
Inhuman (inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com)
"The truth? The truth, Lazarus, is perhaps something so unbearable, so
terrible, something so deadly, that simple people could not live with
it!" -Miguel de Unamuno, _Saint Emmanuel the Good, Martyr_

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Post: 184 of 222
Subject: Pandemonium BBS
From: king (Randy King)
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 22:46:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <VDiLVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Right, Boottrax was the sysop of Pandemonium BBS in 414.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 185 of 222
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 10:13:27 EST

digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:

> Sending a whole bunch of DeBuG mEsSAGEZ!@#!@# at the smtp port for 20
> minutes straight, and then telnetting into Vox using the same account
> you just did all of that from; doesn't do the best possible job of
> HiDiNG w]-[0 eWe reLLE R!
>
> Finally; finger is turned off. No matter how many times you type it,
> it won't wake up, realize that you want it to be here now, and then
> start to function. You CANNOT finger into phantom.com! Duh.... gee?
> Really?
>
>
> SeD, GrEP & AwK! Fun For HoURZ!

Dude, you know that during Novemeber whoever did that, fucked with a lot
of sites on the net. Nyx was totally deleted and replaced with the word
"bob", Spies was cracked and the Well has these huge messages everywhere
saying "change your password right away we've been cracked"

Whoever did that fucked things up for a lot of people, Nyx is semi-private
now you have to send in postcards and ID and crazy shit like that, Rubin
just took down Spies, it is gone... The well, well who cares, but whoever
tried that, tried it on a lot of places and had success.

Did anyone ever track this asshole down? And what did he try on Vox that
failed but managed to crack all these other machines?

-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 186 of 222
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: universe (Universe)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 12:45:58 EST
In-Reply-To: <5simVB15w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Until stupid fools realize responsibility for their actions, they will
continue to drag down the morale and image of other people who are out
there to learn and to understand how things work. This is how I always
remembered it to be, but it seems like it has gotten worse in the last
couple years. Sigh.

Universe

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 187 of 222
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 13:50:03 EST
In-Reply-To: <BVPmVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That's too bad that people like that do that kind of shit, because I had a
account on Spies and used to ftp stuff there and then mail it to myself.
Spies is always hit though, the dude is not that smart, same thing
happened around '89, he took it down for two years, then got bored it
brought it all back up. On the other hand, Spies was awful, it was only
good because it was free. I guess you get what you pay for.

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 188 of 222
Subject: Re: AtTenShuN ElytE Do()dZ
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 17:56:37 EST
In-Reply-To: <5TsmVB7w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Welp, I've been in the thickfoggyconfuzing mi[d]st of the whole Nyx
thing....I know who the guy is - by accident really....Friend who
runs my BBS now called me up one day and with an "ohbytheway"
told me it's a friend of his up at CU (Univ. of Colorado)....
can't confirm this, but the guy's user account is gone on Nyx now, and
aburt [the sysadmin of Nyx] says he's had runins with the guy before
so, I'm pretty sure of who it is....BTW, tha Nyxhacker was just
a plain buforddumbfuck....When appending to the password file, hehehe,
he did one '>' instead of 2, of course....Oh man -
Read-A-Phrack :: Learn-To-Hack!! I hate that type of fuck....

Hacking Spies, Nyx, MindVox or any other k-k001 system worth it's
net.space is just plain fucking dumb, no ifandorbuttheads.....
WakeUp and peel those plstic eyeballs....

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 189 of 222
Subject: Re: **** ATTENTION PLEASE ****
From: brendan (Brendan Kehoe)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 20:54:25 EST

critic (Terry Palfrey) writes:

> I've always maintained that there is really no need to ever worry
> about the wrong parties cracking into any open encryption method.
>
> This is a small call for help for a personal project that requires a
> very special mindset. You either are or are not of that particular
> type and either will or will not be able to follow this through.

Ok hacker, doing tr 'A-Z%#$@&^*' 'a-z ' | rev
I got the below; was this an NSA party joke?

thisfileisnotforthehacking0impaired:-)
i 3wouldlikeadvice from 3 some-whohaveand(
probablystill do!thanksinadvance all

i am running a bbs that is one large game
of "hacker" from log on to to log off and i
was looking for any neat tricks stopgaps and
doors or questionaires or anecdotes or such or
other useful info or design tips.

this is also intended to be a learning forum
and introduction to the online cybervillagespace
that we find ourselves racing toward so quickly
right now the potential hacker enters with a
level of 0 and must derive system information
from supplied bulletins and accessible files tho
the file area is password protected with a
no clue password which is of course password

from there the astute hacker will advance as he figures
things out and finds the plain text clues saying things
like <name> push such and such and take a ride on the
subway at such a time a text file is displayed or a new
access level is granted that allows for other commands
to be found and used the menus and other commands allow
for access by access level, menu set, password and the
building of mini scripts for multiple actions tied to
one command or key press. re

the future planes and plans envision a fed door for the
discerning leiu types with areas like badge and geek
peek as well as secret file access <ctrl><alt><del> and
other nifty mind bogglers. i would also like to add in
a virus contruction set for higher point values - not
to really build one but to give good design prinicples
towards the construction of the end product of virii
knowbots, the future of data sourcing and manipulations

as i said before thanks in advance for any tips hints
or other advice that you may have about how to implement
these ideas in a more realistic and humourous ways

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 190 of 222
Subject: ....attention(less)...
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 23:22:48 EST

re: the lame-assed pre-pubescent backwards text message

siva - oh, that was my thought too, something too simple to be
bothered with and not funny enough to smile about. My apologies of
course - but that is exactly why I was seeking some direction.
I can usually OUTlame !!!!! moes tother ke\/\/|_ d(_)ODz.

jagged - thank you, the palindrome was just like most of what is on
my board. nothing is without some sort of clue that eventually will
unravel the meaning.

inhuman - the game of "hacker" is the theme of an entire bulletin
board that is not in any way connected with the Steve Jackson Games
stuff. You gain access levels by infiltrating the system by analogy
you start hacking. At the lower levels it is simply clues within text
files and random commands like "help" or "access" at a prompt or
perhaps trying "0" in a menu that displays numbers from "1" forwards.
At higher levels you have to have an understanding of what it is you
are looking for and why.

brendan - the crack was almost complete but the single space was
loaded with a $% which through your translation ended up being a
double space. I am sure that everyone appreciated your efforts though.
What kind of NSA party joke are you referring too? And why? Oh right
the lameness.

I was looking for anecdotes and other hints and tips to make further
levels more realistic and educational. Each level is earned so to
speak.

It's so good that everyone was kind to me about this first effort to
ask for a favour in sort of a humour crippled and lame way. I will try
and do better next time.

My next lesson after palindromes will be palimpsets. Sigh.

My sig. is unlisted in public forums.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 191 of 222
Subject: Re: ....attention(less)...
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 17:47:31 EST
In-Reply-To: <P1DPVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The "hacker" bbs sounds sort of interesting. A friend and I
tried writing a similar-sounding multi-player online game. I'm not sure
of its current status. We sort of lost touch when he went off to
college. But I'm all for that type of thing...

---
Inhuman (inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com)
"The truth? The truth, Lazarus, is perhaps something so unbearable, so
terrible, something so deadly, that simple people could not live with
it!" -Miguel de Unamuno, _Saint Emmanuel the Good, Martyr_

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 192 of 222
Subject: Re: ....attention(less)...
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 20:24:46 EST
In-Reply-To: <w6sqVB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

hey hey inhumanmeister.. I'm writing the same type of thing for my board
to teach some of the extreme newbies (the ones I mentioned to you the
other day in chat..) about unix et al.. we should collaborate.

Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 193 of 222
Subject: Re: ....attention(less)...
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 00:58:09 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZF1qVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

inhuman - thank you, everybody can stack a CD-Rom on the end of a phone
line with Wildcat or something hooked up but who brings on the interest
and passes along the folklore?

Any ideas or thoughts that you have kicking about will be gratefully
accepted for new life on the pacific ocean basin.

laughing gas - I am thinking of incorporating different prompts for each
level complete with their own imitation operating system. My first
project is a pseudo dial out system that feels like the early 80's in
atmosphere and layout.

Any spare ideas would be apreciated as not only do I want the game
aspect but also the teaching bent as well.

CritiC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 194 of 222
Subject: Re: ....attention(less)...
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 01:30:29 EST

lgas (Laughing Gas) writes:

> hey hey inhumanmeister.. I'm writing the same type of thing for my board
> to teach some of the extreme newbies (the ones I mentioned to you the
> other day in chat..) about unix et al.. we should collaborate.
>

This makes me ask, what happened to the hack into shell that used to be on
mindvox in July? There was a series of commands that would make the
software dump you into root, then if you got into a text editor and did
some kind of text trick from old apple bbs's it would crash mindvox into
applesoft basic and you could actually sit there and type in basic and
re-write this board that was like "Melterland }I{+" or something like that
name.

I cant take credit for hacking this since someone gave me the commands to
do all this shit, but I noticed that its gone. Will it come back or whats
the deal with it leaving inthe first place, I thought it was great!
-tC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 195 of 222
Subject: Re: ....attention(less)...
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 19:45:07 EST
In-Reply-To: <iLeRVB5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

LG: Well, I never intended it to be a learning tool, but that's a
VERY interesting idea. We'll have to talk about it...

---
Inhuman (inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com)
"The truth? The truth, Lazarus, is perhaps something so unbearable, so
terrible, something so deadly, that simple people could not live with
it!" -Miguel de Unamuno, _Saint Emmanuel the Good, Martyr_

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 196 of 222
Subject: Re: ....attention(less)...
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 23:16:17 EST
In-Reply-To: <wXNuVB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeah, that's why I was going to do it. Like I said, those people I
mentioned have alot of potential, but don't nessicarily know what to do
to avoid being noticed.. so it's safer if they practice on a system
that's friendly towards there interests... I really wanna get a system on
the net though.

Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 197 of 222
Subject: Re: ....attention(less)...
From: rebelion (Chris Jones)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 14:27:49 EST
In-Reply-To: <uPXuVB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

;aughing gas, great idea for your board..

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 198 of 222
Subject: ???
From: grey (Donald Martin)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 93 21:15:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <3ki4VB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Anyone else here besides me resent the term Cyberpunk as it's been
compared to hackers? I wonder if a cyberpunk could be a new age type of
hacker, or possibly an immature hacker? I hate that word. Why is the
hacking forum related to cyberspace, which implies hackers are
cyberpunks?

Grey Ghost

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 199 of 222
Subject: werdz
From: sratte (Swamp Ratte)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 02:04:16 EST
In-Reply-To: <XFL2yB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Cyberpunk: It's just a word with more 'zing'. Or, you could think of
hacking as being a part of cyberpunk, one part. Or you could think of
them as synonymous with each other.
Of course, there's always the option of doing what you do without worrying
about silly terminology.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 200 of 222
Subject: Message
From: grey (Donald Martin)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 20:24:24 EST

Is this message base a piece of shit or what? Jesus Christ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 201 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 93 23:53:29 EST
In-Reply-To: <DRD4yB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, the way I'm seeing the lines drawn, Hackers are old-school
idealists, and Cyberpunks are new-age people out to use their knowledge
for personal gain, regardless of the moral consequence. As for the mssage
base, its only as lame as the people who use it.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 202 of 222
Subject: Cyberpunks
From: cudigest (Jim Thomas)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 01:31:49 EST
In-Reply-To: <uFN4yB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The term "cyberpunk" was borrowed and used by the USSS in manyof
the 1990 seizure warrants and trials. The Markoff/Hafner book increased the
popularity and used three bad examples as illustrations. In fairness, the
title was imposed on them and not of thier own choosing.

It's a terribly misued term, but now that TIME has done it's cover story
on it, we can assume it's gonna be impossible to correct.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 203 of 222
Subject: Re: Cyberpunks
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 03:44:23 EST
In-Reply-To: <qZR4yB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hacking was fine in naive world of yesteryore.
World now has need of wholistic viewpoints.
CyberSpace is where CyberPunks hang.
It is much larger than what is now.

Freedom of thought and Speech.
Versus Power and Control.

You choose......

Whole Earth Wholism or Gibsonesque Corporate Sprawl.

And if you don't like the Hacking-the underground forum.....

U N S U B S C R I B E

If you do then ramp up and prepare to war with the would be
masters of the universe. Call for accountability and then produce
the reasons why from their very archival vaults.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 204 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 08:53:39 EST

grey (Donald Martin) writes:

> Is this message base a piece of shit or what? Jesus Christ!
>

That's cuz most of the discussion has taken place in hacking ethics and
there hasn't been much here which looks like it duplicates a lot of that
one. I guess it'd be changing with the new Forums, butI must say, your
message has sure brought the convo on this forum up by a notch or ten ;)

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 205 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 10:39:24 EST
In-Reply-To: <uFN4yB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I get it...cyperpunks are newage hackers. Does newage rhyme with sewage?

----------------voidmstr

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 206 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: grey (GreyGhost)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 93 17:12:01 EST

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> Well, the way I'm seeing the lines drawn, Hackers are old-school
> idealists, and Cyberpunks are new-age people out to use their knowledge
> for personal gain, regardless of the moral consequence. As for the mssage
> base, its only as lame as the people who use it.
>
>
>
> Ozone
> - Surreal McCoy

Hehe, good point - I'm used to the PC BBS world, Unix is lightyears
behind in the message base department. I liked your deffinition as well.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 207 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 93 20:32:14 EST
In-Reply-To: <q7DcZB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

maybe im a little lost but what do you mean by Unix message base?
i dont know that many unix bbs'
but if you hit the internet...
and usenet...
and ftp/fsp sites...

heell you can get whole books one the internet
and lots of em
not just one or two

maybe im thinking wrong or never ran intot eh right bbs'

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 208 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 93 20:45:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <FgNcZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Maybe grey means bulletins/e-mail??

just as lost as hotblack (imagine that!)

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 209 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 93 20:55:06 EST
In-Reply-To: <P2NcZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Unix message base??

ftp to the washu archives sometime. Try reading the 40M per day that Usenet
puts out. Start up a few games of Diplomacy, play a few muds, find irc
and then come back and talk to us about the Internet...If you have time.

Btw, Unix is an OS. Talking about a Unix message base is like talking about
a DOS message base. I'm sure Unix still comes out on top... :)

//Sulam

jlw@shekel.cs.columbia.edu ...one day we'll awake and still be in fifth
grade and and our lives will be on video tape and the teacher is some witch-
god thing that created everything and she'll show the class and they'll laugh
and laugh and laugh at how stupid yer life was oh yess... - david fremont

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 210 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: carragon (George Carragon)
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 93 21:28:52 EST

sulam (James Waldrop) writes:

> Unix message base??
>
> ftp to the washu archives sometime. Try reading the 40M per day that Usenet
> puts out. Start up a few games of Diplomacy, play a few muds, find irc
> and then come back and talk to us about the Internet...If you have time.
>
> Btw, Unix is an OS. Talking about a Unix message base is like talking about
> a DOS message base. I'm sure Unix still comes out on top... :)

Having been through the hell of running a pcboard for nearly 2 years and
then taking a hard look at the major bbs before saying to hell with it
all, I can almost agree with grey's message.

MSDOS is a pile of horse puckey next to unix, with PCboard you're running
one computer per line and that's all she write, with the major bbs
everything has to be done with one big program that's a friggin nightmare
to deal with.

Unix is sheer heaven and I'd never go back to those days no matter what
they paid me.

What I'm sure he meant was that with the major bbs and PCboard you do
things one way and usually complete with ansi graphics and lightbars.

Unix doesn't have many ansi graphics or lightbars, as powerful as it is.
Mindvox is the slickest thing I've ever seen on Unix and once I got to
playing with it its much more powerful then the MSDOS stuff, but it's not
as easy as picking out 1-2-3 and having the lightbar pop up.

Then again in those 2 years or running a pcboard, I never did find anybody
interesting with much of anything to say. It was all about downloading
the latest shareware and not-so-shareware (ala Rusty and Eddies)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 211 of 222
Subject: Re: Message
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 93 15:29:48 EST
In-Reply-To: <T3PcZB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Between calling BBSs, even those with multi-nodes/users, &tc., nothing
beats the 'Net for bandwidth. 'Sides, the call is free (unless you don't
have a local dial-in access, of course).

And since the Internet isn't OWNED by any one person, no one can kick you
off ... albiet you can be denied access to single addresses, and sys
admins can choose not to let you access the 'net (by not giving you an
account), there's *so* many places to go ....

I only call two highly specialized BBS's, both in AUstin, TX (should be an
obvious guess for Drow et alis). The rest of my time is here, my
University's systems, and FTP/Telnet. No MUDs, though. They suck your free
time right out the CRT!

[ Cyber-Renaissance Man ]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[ in the material world ]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 212 of 222
Subject: BBS Hell
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 93 17:28:08 EST
In-Reply-To: <D54DZB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I dunno, I spend some of my time yet on the BBSes still, and I sit here
and think I know what I'm doing, and over there, I do.

Here, eh-eh. Not really.

I need Unix with some DOS Compatibility! (or, Unix at all really)

Anyways, back to my plot.

I guess I still spend all my time over on 'the other side' (hehe, this is
getting cheezy) cuz it's more file oriented and there are still some
idiots I'm smarter than, etc., and that there is actually, no reference,
stuff I do.

So, I'll keep both worlds thank you much.

|:- Wanna fight about it?! (grin) -:|
|:- nihilis@phantom.com -:|
|:- Joel Boutros -:|

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 213 of 222
Subject: just posting this
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Fri, 07 Aug 92 19:16:27 EDT

to keep my call:post up :)
and it struck me as odd because when going forward i skipped it
but backwards i didnt...
hmm... curiouser and curiouser
well not really, but anyhow

not that this is really underground, but how long will it be before
mindvox gets hacked into? what type of security measures do you
think there are? how hard do you think it is? how much time
to get anything, how mmuch time to get somethign useful?
can you get anything useful?

i dont know.. just some thoughts from someone who was never
a hacker just hung around them in high school and jr high

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 214 of 222
Subject: Lo and Behold...
From: phiber (Phiber Optik)
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 92 06:16:02 EDT

What chance would mere mortals have against us with their measley recipe
following crack attempts? Believe you me, security is in the hands of
those who can handle it. (trumpet blurt)

(steps down off pedestal)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 215 of 222
Subject: cvk
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 17:10:04 EDT

bumped into CVK the other week, anyone remember him?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 216 of 222
Subject: lod/marauder
From: marauder (The Marauder)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 15:57:16 EDT

this was originaly a reply to someone on the Usenet, but I guess it's ok
to put here too. It's kinda long, so if telephones are not your cup of
tea, skip it.

============================================================

> Silver boxes produce extended DTMF tones, A,B,C,D etc. You can do this
> with a modem. That why they're safe?
> Blue boxes don't work any more. And anyways, the phone company switching
> tone will no longer be 2600 eventually.
> Red boxes work. At the moment. There are easy, cheap, ways to filter them
> out. (The tones they produce) Basically, when the telco fix a phone, they
> add a filter.
> Yeah, i think it's the cyberden guys, they sell that kind of stuff.
> Easier and cheaper to make/obtain it yourself though.

Just to add a few random thoughts?:

1) Silver Boxes revisited:

As the message above points out, the "Silver Box" allows the user to
generate the extended DTMF keytones, these are also called by some:
"The Autovon tones", since you all know they were originally developed
and used on the military Autovon network, allowing Autovon users
various levels of "precedence" for a given call on that network. They
were as follows:

Flash Overide
Flash
Interupt
Priority

Those of you who are interested, can find any number of old "G-Files"
written on the use and abuse of Autovon. In my opinion let us suffice
to say that utilization of the Autovon network was limited by most
phone Phreaks, since it really didn't allow you to access much of
anything. Sure you could prioritize yourself all along the trunk
network and in the process maybe raise a few eyebrows, but not much
else. I played with it a bit, got bored and moved on to more
interesting things.

We come now to the second (more useful & fun) use of the "silver box",
which relied on the fact that a particular brand of Automatic Call
Distributor (ACD), once used quite frequently by AT&T Directory
Assistance (DA) positions, just happened to utilize the same set of
keytones (ABCD) to place the ACD into a maintenance mode. Knowledge of
this allowed us to manipulate said ACD from a remote location (home).
Once the ACD was placed into its maintenance mode, the phone Phreak
could, by use of various DTMF key combinations, access many
interesting features, one in particular was quite useful, this was the
ACD Loop feature, by pressing a DTMF 7 one would be placed on one side
of a testing loop incorporated into the ACD itself, Another "Silver
Boxer" calling the Same DA position, could enter maintenance mode and
Send a DTMF 6, and be placed on the other side of the same loop. Since
Pre-divestiture calls to DA positions were for the most part free,
this enabled silver boxers essentially "free" calls to each other,
especially since (800) DA would for a long time allow this. Another
interesting feature was the ability to place ones self in a position
to Intercept, and thus "Answer" incoming calls to that DA position, It
essentially let you become a DA operator!, you can imagine the hours
of fun one could have here. Unfortunately, this method of "Silver
Boxing" was long ago "corrected" by the various BOCS/RBOCS/etc., and
the last "Silver Boxable" DA position I knew of was Alaska's (907)
NPA.

2) Red Boxing:

In my opinion, Redboxing should simply be called toll fraud, since
doing it requires little, or no understanding of the phone system
whatsoever. I place it on about the same level as using a Sprint, or
MCI code to make a free call. There are a few ways to go about getting
yourself a red box, the first and easiest is to make yourself a "Poor
man's Redbox" ("King Blotto" - was the first I saw use this term),
which is to simply have someone call you from a fortress fone and
deposit 5 or 6 quarters whilst you record them, and then playing them
back when you want to "box" a coin call. The second method involves
building yourself one either from scratch, or by modifying some other
piece of hardware, again plans for this abound all over the place.
Lastly, you can get yourself a fortress fone and disassemble it, and
grab the "Redbox" built into it. (It's interesting to note that on
"Northern Telecom" Coinstations (which are by far the best made), the
"Redbox" is an actual "Mechanical Device", which consists of a tone
producing circuit, and a mechanical "interrupter wheel" to space the
tonepair bursts.) This method is generally more trouble than it's
worth, but it does produce the most reliable source tones. A little
bit on the "workings" of a Coin call, and why a Redbox works. When one
places a toll call from a coin station the system buffers the dialed
digits, and forwards them to ACTS (Automated Coin Toll System). ACTS,
Using the calling number and the called number, Consults a Toll
database, computes the amounts of money required to place the call,
and Prompts the caller to deposit the required amount. ACTS then
listens for the "Coin Deposit" tones, tallies them until the initial
deposit amount has been reached, and then releases the buffered digits
and allows the call to progress as normal. an OSPS/TOPS operator can
also provide you with the same service, however ACTS was developed to
relieve the TSPS (predecessor to todays OSPS position) of exactly
this. This is the reason a Redbox does not "simply" work for a local
call. ACTS is not required for a local call since all calls within the
coin stations calling area are a flat 25 cents, there is no reason to
even utilize ACTS, and the coin station/CO utilize a ground test to
determine if a coin has been deposited. (ala David Lightman in
wargames). In effect, on local coin originated calls the system is
"Not listening" for the coin deposit tones to determine coin entry
(even though the coin station dutifully produces them). Lastly the
second party vendor coin stations (called by some: COCOTS), use an
entirely different (internal) method for handling toll billing, and
generally a red box would be useless against them.

3) Blue Boxing, 1993:

Contrary to popular belief, blue boxing is still possible. Most surely
it is not the easy game it once was, however the enterprising Phreak
can still sniff out a few holes in the network that would allow
him/her to utilize inband (MF) call signalling procedures. The reason
90% of would be blue boxers are done in, is due a feature of Common
Channel Interoffice Signalling (CCIS), or "out of band" signaling.
Briefly; CCIS is a system in which the call routing information is
sent on a separate "data channel", than the voice (or Audio) portion
of the call. The pre CCIS or "old" method, had both voice/audio AND
call routing information being sent on the same pair. Not only does
CCIS totally ignore any "MF" tones sent down an associated Voice
circuit, it has the "VICIOUS" habit of muting Forward audio on the
Voice circuit when it detects a loss of supervision at the destination
end. (however it allows the distant end to continue to pass audio to
you, so you can hear the various "call progress" tones, such as busy,
Intercepts, etc..) This "little" feature is (mainly) what spells
disaster for todays Blueboxer, and the reason is this: There are
plenty of non-CCIS exchanges left in the United States, and thus will
respond nicely to MF signalling, however when you dial directly to one
of these, you are 99% assured of crossing some portion of the TOLL
network that is CCIS equipped, and in doing so you are faced with the
"problem" of the audio muting. I'm sure several of you have met with:
Placing a call to a rural exchange, blowing the "infamous" 2600hz to
be rewarded with the reassuring "kerchink!", "oh man, TRUNK! you say
to yourself", and then, no matter what you send at it, you end up with
a reorder, damn! - why? As soon as you applied 2600hz, supervision
at some point "PAST" the CCIS link was lost, CCIS "sees" this, and
Mutes further audio from your end. So your trunk is sitting there
nicely awaiting "KP+all kinds 'o fun stuff+ST", but you, unfortunately
can not get them to it. This by no means is the ONLY problem that
todays boxers are faced with, just one of the bigger ones. There is
also the _DEADLY_ "BLUE BOX REPORT", ( of which my old friend "Phantom
Phreaker", first pointed out to me). This report is generated
regularly by SCCS, and forwarded to the Corporate Security Center for
evaluation. This "system" is constantly looking for strange behavior,
odd tones, strange supervisory conditions, etc.. They WILL catch you
eventually, in fact "they" are pretty good at catching boxers in
general.

Things have changed greatly since the days that I, and my friends
explored the telephone system, and discovered some of its many
wonders. Security is downright _MEAN_, laws have been written,
programs are better, etc. I would not trade for anything, the memories
I have, nor the friends I have made over the years pursuing my
"hobby". Today though, things are changing so rapidly that I sadly,
cannot even hope to keep up with it all. To me at least, the telephone
system will always remain a most interesting beast.

April 21, 1993

The Marauder
Legion of Doom!

[end]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 217 of 222
Subject: hmmm
From: tgitm (TGiTM Inc.)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 23:38:50 EDT

Phiber had it right when he said most hackers nowadays follow recipes.
It's a sad fact but very very true. Almost all hackers I've met in
person o nthe West Coast at least have a standard procedure they follow.
it really has lost some of the creativeness and spice when you follow a
standard text-book approach like that. Oh well, it is a dying breed
after all...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 218 of 222
Subject: Re: hmmm
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 11:06:22 EDT

tgitm (TGiTM Inc.) writes:

> Phiber had it right when he said most hackers nowadays follow recipes.
> It's a sad fact but very very true. Almost all hackers I've met in
> person o nthe West Coast at least have a standard procedure they follow.
> it really has lost some of the creativeness and spice when you follow a
> standard text-book approach like that. Oh well, it is a dying breed
> after all...

Finding and fixing the holes, though, still has a little spice. :)

Sulam

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.
Just make sure you shave your head for the camera.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 219 of 222
Subject: Re: hmmm
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 19:32:48 EDT
In-Reply-To: <B6cm3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

That was a hilarious tag-line, Sulam.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 220 of 222
Subject: Re: hmmm
From: wishbone (Cajun)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 13:14:38 EDT

ozone (Al Macey) writes:

> That was a hilarious tag-line, Sulam.
>
>
>
> Ozone
> - Surreal McCoy

After you read it a couple hundred times, tell me how much you like it.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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Post: 221 of 222
Subject: Re: hmmm
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 18:36:34 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4qDo3B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, I didn't say it'd be hilarious a couple o' hundred times, but I do
see your point nonetheless.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

[Return] 2-222, [Q]uit:
Post: 222 of 222
Subject: Regarding Marauders message!
From: universe (Universe)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 21:52:57 EDT
In-Reply-To: <NNso3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hi everyone! Hey Marauder - thanx for the most interesting message, the
first one of substance I have seen on here in quite a while. The content
of your msg, plus your writing style, just pulls me in and makes me
eagerly anticipate the next word or sentence.

Ah yes - the old BLUEBOX report!! I found one of them once, a few years
ago, sitting in a directory somewhere. It was interesting. However, one
thing to note, is that some offices could be excluded from the BB report.
I don't know why they would do this exactly, my speculation is that they
had the rpt:bb turned on for offices that were either 1) larger offices in
areas that were prone to boxing type people (for instance college campus
areas) or 2) areas that had experienced boxing in the past (for instance,
NYC, parts of Florida, and many major city areas when boxing was still the
main thing going down). The program went through the switch logs and
searched for the strings that dealth with the potential bluebox abuse (SIG
IRR messages on ESS machines, REPT BB I think, on DMS, I don't know any
others like GTE switches but am interested if anyone knows) and put them
in a file, as you said, and sent it to the Corporate Security Center or
the Annoyance C all Bureau. I don't even know if the names of these places
are the same or not, because I'm sure the info I had is way outdated, and
to be quite frank, I really have an active life that doesnt need any of
the hassle associated with any sort of hacking or illegal activity whatsoever.

Peace Be with you all,
Universe
Of The Higher Planes

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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-=/[ End of All Songs / [No Further Messages] ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Hacking ]

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-=/[ [11] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 11
Subject: Re: Toll Fraud article
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 17:45:52 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9Vm0RB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I thought Gail was always portrayed as this really sympathetic woman who
did the ethical thing and all that jazz and Bill Cook was the scumbag who
twisted things to nail it to people?

Who is Gail anyway, where did you come from before all this happened and
what makes her so qualified to deal with computer crime?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 11
Subject: Toll Fraud article
From: heretic (The Heretic)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 04:32:07 EDT

While looking through some of my files, I noted the following
paragraph in an article which appeared in the Philadelphia
Inquirer in 1986. The article described how "more thieves
were ringing up toll fraud" and said that the thieves
included:

"Organized-crime groups, drug dealers, bookies and call-girl services.
'They have an endless hunger for free telephone calls. And their
emphasis isn't only on free,' said former Philadelphia Assistant
District Attorney Gail Thackeray, who is now investigating phone
and computer crime as an assistant state attorney general in
Arizona. Organized crime has found that telephone fraud is
a way to leave no record of calls, she said."

Yep, good ol' Gail fighting crime! Targeting teenage hackers
seems like a real step down from investigations into toll
fraud and hacking done by "organized crime groups." Did
Gail ever catch the mob or bookies or prostitutes blue boxing,
or did she start targeting teenage hackers out of desperation?
Expiring minds want to know.

--Heretic

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 3 of 11
Subject: Gail..
From: tm (Terminal Mode)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 03:46:14 EDT
In-Reply-To: <6ygPsB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Here is alittle information concerning good ole Gail.. she was a
district attorney (I believe, if memory serves me, but I do sense a parity
error) in some Eastern US city. She moved to Az, I guess because her work
merited it, to become an Assistent Attorney General to specialize in cases
involving computer fraud. Working in close company with the computer crime
and fraud unit, she proudly busted many offenders to foster an amazing
record (by all standards?). How her relationship formed with the SS/FBI is a
mystery to me; possibly, her record had enough momentum in its dispersal to
reach all sorts of ears...so a simple phone call? Shortly thereafter, Op
SunDevil began to brood atop many heads.

I think Gail is a very diligent, motivated woman (so motivated she may be
at risk when her health is reviewed) who believes in scare tactics and is not
afraid to, to put it subtly, penalize you. It would be nice to know by
what morals and ethics she forges the law. Any facts out there?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 4 of 11
Subject: Re: Gail..
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 09:07:45 EDT
In-Reply-To: <RR9PsB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Last I heard Gail was out of work and wandering around in the midwest in
search of a computer. Just desserts, hope the bitch ends up on
unemployment or working in a safeway where she belongs. Sundevil was a
fucking bad joke which dicked over most of the wrong people so a few
shitheads could get ahead in their jobs. Serves them all right if they end
up in the breadline.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 5 of 11
Subject: Re: Gail..
From: elite (Elite Entity)
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 92 13:55:20 EDT
In-Reply-To: <mNNqsB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

\/\/3LL, w/ aLL th1$ taL/< ab()uT ga1L d0wn 1n s1n c1ty, AZ, br()uGHT
2 mY m1n|) iZ "(uc/<00z eGG" aUTh0r CLIFFORD STOLL, an()th3r
anT1pHr3akzzzz p()t3/\/aT3#@!#@!#!@# 1 waZ juST 1n sa/\/ fRaN(1sc0
th3 ()th3R dAY, a/\/|) pAG3 318 0f th3 ()a/<lAnd \/\/h1T3 pAg3zzz
iz \/3Ry 1nt3rest1nG!$#!$!

Cl1ff St()LL
6270 C0lby Str33t
()akland, Cal14n-I-A
(510)/654-3958 92'/93' Wh1te PAgezzz

/\/0w 1 /<n0w (L1ff l1/<3zzz 2 h()p, s?,1p & jUMp ()ut 2 b0sT0/\/ a
L0T (& wh0 w()uL|)n'T !???@?!@?@#), buT 1 g0T Cl1FFz aNSw3r1nG
maCh1n3 wH3n 1 (aLL3d, s0 3vEn 1f th3 # iz RCF'd (!##@!) u caN st1ll
l3aVE a hAppY :) /\/\3$$aG3 (0r SE RCMAC in2...0h neVerm1nd)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 6 of 11
Subject: PumpCon
From: system (System Administrator)
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 92 03:00:43 EST
In-Reply-To: <XaqusB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The following will appear on Newsbytes, a copyrighted service . It is
reposted her with the express consent of the authors:

(NEWS)(GOVERNMENT)(NYC)(00001)

Computer Access Arrests In NY 11/03/92
GREENBURGH, NEW YORK, U.S.A., 1992 NOV 3 (NB) -- The
Greenburgh, New York Police Department has announced the arrest of
three individuals, Randy P. Sigman, 40; Ronald G. Pinz, Jr, 21; and Byron
J. Woodard, 18 for the alleged crimes of Unauthorized Use Of A computer
and Attempted Computer Trespass, both misdemeanors. Also arrested was
Jason A. Brittain, 22 in satisfaction of a State of Arizona Fugitive From
Justice warrant.

The arrests took place in the midst of an "OctoberCon" or "PumpCon"
party billed as a "hacker get-together" at the Marriott Courtyard Hotel in
Greenburgh. . The arrests were made at approximately 4:00 AM on
Sunday morning, November 1st. The three defendants arrested for
computer crimes were granted $1,000 bail and will be arraigned on
Friday, November 6th.

Newsbytes sources said that the get together, which had attracted up to
sixty people, had dwindled to approximately twenty-five when, at 10:00
Saturday night, the police, in response to noise complaints arrived and
allegedly found computers in use accessing systems over telephone lines.
The police held the twenty-five for questioning and called in Westchester
County Assistant District Attorney Kenneth Citarella, a prosecutor versed
in computer crime, for assistance. During the questioning period, the
information on Brittain as a fugitive from Arizona was obtained and at
4:00 the three alleged criminal trespassers and Brittain were charged.

Both Lt. DeCarlo of the Greenburgh police and Citarella told Newsbytes
that the investigation is continuing and that no further information is
available at this time.

(Barbara E. McMullen & John F. McMullen/19921103)

John F. McMullen mcmullen@mindvox.phantom.com Consultant,
knxd@maristb.bitnet mcmullen@well.sf.ca.us Writer,
70210.172@compuserve.com mcmullen@panix.com Student,
GEnie - nb.nyc mcmullen@eff.org Teacher

-- Us (Perhaps THEM, but definitely not THOSE PEOPLE)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 7 of 11
Subject: Ban on Information Gathering
From: cyber (Patrick McKee)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 06:44:46 EST
In-Reply-To: <w4FPTB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

AP news item in today's San Diego Union:

Headline: "CIA chief hints change needed in ban on probing Americans"

Excerpts:
WASHINGTON--CIA Director Robert Gates says changes might be needed
in the U.S. law that forbids the agency from collecting information about
Americans or U.S. companies.
Such changes might enable the CIA to better support the Justice
Department and other law enforcement agencies, he said in an interview
with the Associated Press.
The idea grew out of a recent storm of accusations by Democrats in
Congress, Justice Department officials and a federal judge that the CIA
withheld information in the case of $5.5 billion lending scheme to Iraq by
an Atlanta bank.
...
[Gates said] the case of the Iraqi loans raises a broader issue of
what the CIA is expected to do to aid law enforcement in such fields as
financial crimes.
Under current law, the CIA is strictly forbidden to collect
information on Americans or American companies.
"At some point it seems to me, very early on, we and Justice...and
the Congress are going to have to...have some sort of serious discussion
about whether there are changes in the law that are needed that will
clarify some of the ambiguities and what we can and cannot do in support
to law enforcement," Gates said.
He did not elaborate.
...

(0( Cyber )0)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 8 of 11
Subject: Government de-classifies Codes
From: cyber (Patrick McKee)
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 92 06:45:35 EST

Government Reverses Itself, Declassifies Studies On Secret Codes<
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) _ The National Security Agency has reversed
itself and declassified two cryptography texts it previously had
insisted were secret even though they were available in public
libraries.
The announcement Wednesday came as a result of a lawsuit filed
under the Freedom of Information Act by a Silicon Valley computer
scientist who believes private companies should have more access to
secret code technology.
The analyst, John Gilmore, asked the spy agency to declassify
the 50-year-old studies on encryption _ the science of designing
codes.
The U.S. Department of Justice recently had threatened to
prosecute Gilmore under a 1950s espionage law if he distributed
copies of the texts.
In court papers, an NSA official said disclosure of the
information could seriously damage national security. The agency is
in charge of protecting U.S. codes and cracking foreign ones.
Gilmore is a board member of the Electronic Frontier Foundation
of Cambridge, Mass.
The organization believes now-secret encryption technology is
necessary for private companies to make modern computer and
telephone systems secure from tampering.
``Why shouldn't an American citizen be able to go to the library
and teach himself about encryption?'' asked Michael Godwin, a staff
counsel at the foundation.
Gilmore said he found copies of the once-declassified studies,
made secret again by the Reagan administration, in public
libraries. They presently are used as texts in military classes.
He said he plans to distribute 20 or 30 copies to other
libraries. The studies are about 1,000 pages long.
AP-DS-11-26-92 1837EST<

(0( Cyber )0)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 9 of 11
Subject: Re: Government de-classifies Codes
From: tm (Terminal Mode)
Date: Tue, 01 Dec 92 04:01:09 EST
In-Reply-To: <ouV2uB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Pat, can you get hold of the ISBN for _The science of designing codes_?
(and post it?)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 10 of 11
Subject: Re: Government de-classifies Codes
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 04:05:58 EST

tm (Terminal Mode) writes:

> Pat, can you get hold of the ISBN for _The science of designing codes_?
> (and post it?)
>
>

Ditto - Enzyme

CU
AUGAUCAUCGAUCGAUCGUACGCUAGCU A Think small
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||| G RIBOZYME molecular biology
UACUAGUAGCUAGCUAGCAUGCGAUCGA A
UC

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

[Return] 1-11, [Q]uit:
Post: 11 of 11
Subject: Re: Government de-classifies Codes
From: lgas (Laughing Gas)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 20:21:23 EDT
In-Reply-To: <NgoFwB8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I did a search for that book (The Science of Designing Codes) and came up
with nothing. If you don't believe me try telneting to dra.com yourself..
:) but maybe if you knew an author..

Laughing Gas

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

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-=/[ End of All Songs / [No Further Messages] ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

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-=/[ End of All Songs / [No Further Messages] ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Media ]

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-=/[ [189] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mondo ]

[Return] 1-189, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 189
Subject: Next issue?
From: falconer (Steve Copold)
Date: Sat, 01 Aug 92 10:08:34 EDT

Does anyone know when the next issue of Mondo will be mailed out? Also,
does Mondo send out subscription renewal notices?

Tnx...Falconer

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mondo ]

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Phrack ]

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[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 15
Subject: Tanks
From: universe (Universe)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 01:11:33 EST

Has anyone here experienced an isolation tank experience? Hey, that would
be a good name for a band, wouldn't it..."The Isolation Tank Experience",
with apologies to Hendrix...

If you are interested, I would mentioned a man named John Lily, I think
was his name, who did some extensive research with himself as the subject,
in some sensory deprivation tanks and drugs. The movie altered states was
based on this, though I think hollywood made this much more dramatic.
Still, he wrote a book, called CENTER OF THE CYCLONE, I believe, that is
about his experiences. It's a book I've been meaning to read, along with
about 10 other ones, including the HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE by Michael Talbot,
and a couple of other ones...

I hear that there are places where you can pay a certain amount and rent a
tank to be used for a certain amount of time. It sounds like it could be a
life changing event and very intense, for sure...

Peace,
U N I V E R S E

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 15
Subject: Re: Tanks
From: zeitgist (zeit geist)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 01:17:57 EST

universe (Universe) writes:

> Has anyone here experienced an isolation tank experience? Hey, that would
> be a good name for a band, wouldn't it..."The Isolation Tank Experience",
> with apologies to Hendrix...
>
> If you are interested, I would mentioned a man named John Lily, I think
> was his name, who did some extensive research with himself as the subject,
> in some sensory deprivation tanks and drugs. The movie altered states was
> based on this, though I think hollywood made this much more dramatic.
> Still, he wrote a book, called CENTER OF THE CYCLONE, I believe, that is
> about his experiences. It's a book I've been meaning to read, along with
> about 10 other ones, including the HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE by Michael Talbot,
> and a couple of other ones...
>
> I hear that there are places where you can pay a certain amount and rent a
> tank to be used for a certain amount of time. It sounds like it could be a
> life changing event and very intense, for sure...
>
>
> Peace,
> U N I V E R S E
>
>
>

I have tried an isolation tank at a place called "California Hot Tub" in
NYC. I don't know if they are still in business. It cost about $10/hr.

The water is salt water so you float - experiencing "sensory deprivation"
or if you prefer, you can play music.

I tried it as a result of reading Lilly's book. He described using LSD
and then going in the tank. (I would never think of doing that ;) )

The strongest impression I had was when I left the tank and went back
into "reality" impressions seemed much more vivid. This lasted for
about 2 hours.

I would recommend that you try it if you get a chance.
**Zeit Geist**

zeitgist@mindvox.phantom.com

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 3 of 15
Subject: Re: Tanks
From: synking (Joe McGinty)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 01:36:41 EST

universe (Universe) writes:

> Has anyone here experienced an isolation tank experience? Hey, that would
> be a good name for a band, wouldn't it..."The Isolation Tank Experience",
> with apologies to Hendrix...
>
> If you are interested, I would mentioned a man named John Lily, I think
> was his name, who did some extensive research with himself as the subject,
> in some sensory deprivation tanks and drugs. The movie altered states was
> based on this, though I think hollywood made this much more dramatic.
> Still, he wrote a book, called CENTER OF THE CYCLONE, I believe, that is
> about his experiences. It's a book I've been meaning to read, along with
> about 10 other ones, including the HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE by Michael Talbot,
> and a couple of other ones...
>
> I hear that there are places where you can pay a certain amount and rent a
> tank to be used for a certain amount of time. It sounds like it could be a
> life changing event and very intense, for sure...
>
>
> Peace,
> U N I V E R S E
>
>
>

Yeah, I've done it, but it was a while ago. About when Altered States was
popular, some ten years ago or so, these places were popping up all over
the place, even in Atlantic City, NJ (my hometown). The first place Iwent
to was actually in the back of a barber shop- the guy was so into Altered
States that he put his own tank in his shop. It was quite cool there was
even a special deal for a float and a haircut. Then a more official place
opened up just after. I must say I quite enjoyed it, and would like to do
it again, just haven't got around to it. It's a very peaceful feeling,
but be careful if you have any cuts, they will sting. It took me a few
times to get used to it. One definitely finds the feeling of sensation
quite refreshing after an hour of deprivation. They notify you when your
hour is up by tapping on the tank-this sound seems like a million miles
away....Definitely a recommended experience, writing about it here makes
me want to do it again. Don't know where you are---actually, don't know
of any tanks in NYC-perhaps someone out there does?....Cheers .....

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 4 of 15
Subject: Re: Tanks
From: simonm (Simon Moon)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 03:15:46 EST
In-Reply-To: <uV75uB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

This sounds fascinating... What kind of prices are there on isolation
sessions?

Also, does anyone know anything _factual_ about the mind machines with
little lights that bling in front of your eyes? I tried it once and kinda
tripped out... It was a cool expereince, but at the time the price for one
of the machines was like $1000 or something. Also, are the patterns of the
flashing in the public domain or are they the property of the company that
develops these machines. It would seem like you could probably drive one
off a serial port with a PC of your choice. That would be _way cool_.

- Simon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 5 of 15
Subject: Re: Tanks
From: tm (Terminal Mode)
Date: Wed, 02 Dec 92 03:34:33 EST
In-Reply-To: <ZgB6uB3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

LSD does, indeed, give you a feeling of defiite difference between the
altered state of mind and reality. The transition between the two, going
from the earlier mentioned to the later, is as great a trip as when you
pique. Your most lucid experiences during or around the peak are recalled
in the transition. This is very illuminating and freaky. Patrick is
truly right, LSD gives your subconscious thots freeform and they surface,
little by little -- some cannot take it, it is too shocking -- in your
sphere of consciousness. When the light arrives, you may close your eyes
and run or face the facts, as I say. Tis may sound romantic but choose a
method of relating perceptions...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 6 of 15
Subject: Re: Tanks
From: synking (Joe McGinty)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 92 01:27:51 EST
In-Reply-To: <acc6uB4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

A friend has a brain machine which I borrow from time to time which I
find quite effective...Dunno where he bought it, I think it cost about
$300. There's a place in NYC called SynchroEnergize on Broadway just
below Houston that rents 'em by the hour. I've never tried 'em there, if
anyone has, lemme know, in the meantime I'll borrow my friends as long as
I can get away with it.........

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 7 of 15
Subject: Re: Tanks
From: allah (Alex Metcalf)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 92 13:59:10 EST
In-Reply-To: <5517uB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

There's a guy in Chelsea (23rd I think...) who's got a tank in his
apartment -- Nice wide open space with optional muzik.
Sam Zeiger -- Blue Light Floatation -- 212.989.6061

Haven't gone to him in a few years so I'm not sure if he's still up and
running. California hot tubs is definitely gone gone gone...

As far as tanks go, I used to do them a lot a few years ago both in NY
and LA. doing it once is fine but what you mainly do is relax in ways
that you aren't used to. You go in 6 or 7 times and shit starts to get
weird...

AL X

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 8 of 15
Subject: Ice-o-l8 (dibs on the copyrights)
From: ahawks (Andy Hawks)
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 92 20:44:23 EST
In-Reply-To: <BXZ8uB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I recently finished a 15 page report on John Lilly for my psych class...
My interest in Lilly came about just after naturally x-periencing the
modern realities of drug culture....Any rate, besides Center of the
Cyclone
the second must-read in this area is John Lilly, so far... by himself and
some other
guy...Anybody who injects acid into dolphins and can validate it with
sci-n-tific
mumbo-jumbo has got my vote as guru.....

At any rate, for a unique x-perience, fill yer bathtub, or go in the
shallow end of your pool, put a speaker next to it playing nonSTOP
Orb music (cd changer helps), and then trip....

Picture yourself as dolphin. Picture yourself as the sonar NRG
of a dolphin. Water becomes the key to the unconscious mind. In this
reali-t I x-perienced many cool aspects of a gestalt primordial
unconsciousness,
which is something cool to explore while tripping....
KLF's chill out works good for this as well, as does that song with the
Terence McKenna sample on Shamen's Boss Drum.....

BTW, I suggest this only for people who already feel comfortable using
acid, and using it alone, and using it in water.....

Reality will never b the same.

bye-bye said the trip-toad as he dove into his unconscious, forgoing the
cofort of the familiar lilly-lilly ribbit-ribbit life he knew.

ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
andy (hawkeye)(dali) new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
(freshjive) raves, etc. Home of the famous =) FutureCulture FAQ!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 9 of 15
Subject: tanking
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 92 20:38:19 EST
In-Reply-To: <ooi9uB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Most of the stuff you might find on mind machines is likely hype.
Probably so are most actual mind machines.

Write to mind-l-requst@asylum.sf.ca.us for inclusion onto the Mind-List.
Plenty of hype there too, and some specifics, references, ad reviews of
various equipment.

The deprivation therapy I underwent in 1982 helped me to deal with a
destructively compulsive LSD habit. Joe Bob sez check it out.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 10 of 15
Subject: Joe Bob
From: chrmsync (Chrome Sync)
Date: Sun, 06 Dec 92 01:55:00 EST
In-Reply-To: <kq8BVB2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Anyone else check for mind-machinery fu?

I Be The Weird ...

[Paleo-Cyber Libertarian]
|| ||
|| Chrome Sync ||
|| ||
[and non-eeleete MacGuru]

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 11 of 15
Subject: Floating
From: heretic (The Heretic)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 17:05:50 EST
In-Reply-To: <DemcVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I went floating several times. I was paying about $5/hr, which is
unusually cheap for 10 hours of floating (I did it in 1 or 2 hr
chunks). It is mildly interesting IMHO but not worth the cash.
I think only someone who hasn't taken psychoactive drugs could be
really impressed with it.

As for mind machines, I agree that their effects are great overstated.
Most importantly, the theories behind them are complete bullshit.
I currently do EEG research professionally and think that there is
a lot of potential in imaging brain function and doing feedback loops,
but toys with lights and sounds aren't that. I think the light
which is designed to facilitate lucid dreaming is probably
something that works and is fun, although not necessarily useful.
I haven't tried it though, only read of it in WER.

For the most part, unless you're gonna do biofeedback with a
computer, I'd suggest saving your money and go dancing (or
music playing) or perhaps buying some illegal drugs. Not that
I condone breaking the law except in a conscious deliberate
manner.

--Heretic

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 12 of 15
Subject: Floaters
From: grey (GreyGhost)
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 93 21:17:01 EST
In-Reply-To: <Fw2mVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The heck with floating in salt water - anyone here tried Astral
Projection? We're talkin serious mental machinery! I used to have this
girlfriend that could follow me around the house mentally and describe
exactly what I was doing, even though she was in another room.

Maybe this belongs in another base (forum), but I noticed this was dead
and wanted to awaken someone?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 13 of 15
Subject: Re: Floating
From: hotblack (Dana Watanabe)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 02:20:41 EST
In-Reply-To: <Fw2mVB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

actually afloating is a real good way to try astral projection

dick feyman i think it was tried it and said he
was about 3 or foru inches off center
something i didnt understand till it hahpeened to me
one morning
wish i had gone with it

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 14 of 15
Subject: Re: Floaters
From: lindakuc (Linda Kuczwanski)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 13:34:36 EST
In-Reply-To: <37JeZB6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I have a memory from about the age of two or three that I am not sure is
real or not. It involves watching my little toddler self running
headlong toward an open cess pool toward a runaway baloon, and seeing my
father run after me and grab me. I remember the thing from the
perspective of being some hundred feet away, standing on the porch with
my aunt. Is that strange?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[Return] 1-15, [Q]uit:
Post: 15 of 15
Subject: Re: Floaters
From: allah (Alex Metcalf)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 14:53:02 EST
In-Reply-To: <D5NHZB1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

No, not if you internalized the story after having your aunt tell it to
you...

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

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-=/[ End of All Songs / [No Further Messages] ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Mind-Machinery ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-15] [Q]uit: +

-=/[ [1] New Message / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Phantom-Zone ]

[Return] 1-1, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 1

CYBERSPACE: PHANTOM-ZONE

"Our little group has always been;
and always will, until the end..."
--Nirvana

The Phantom Zone is a private forum dedicated to discussing the evolution of
Cyberspace from the personal perspective's of those who have spent a consid-
erable portion of their lives there. Almost everyone here has friendships
or feuds with most of the other participants, dating back to the halcyon
days of the early eighties. It's sort of an extended-family get-together,
complete with that weird guy from Poker Flats who married his sister and
collects beer cans (a fine artform that we are assuredly NOT knocking).

No k0dEz, no plotting anarchy, no VMB'Z, nothing illegal takes place here,
so if you desire to enter due to those reasons; eWe R noT eLYtE EnUFF u
L0ZEr!

Depending on how things go, this Forum may become invitation-only in the fu-
ture, and quite possibly moderated, video-taped, tapped, bound & gagged,
shredded, glued, and worth 19 million dollars in its final printed format:
exhibit "c0ef" in the case of "The People" vs. Defendant X.

Beware of falling sine waves.

Thank You / Lords Anonymous
Light Conducting Cable Ltd.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Phantom-Zone ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-1] [Q]uit:

-=/[ End of All Songs / [No Further Messages] ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Phantom-Zone ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-1] [Q]uit: +

-=/[ [2611] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Publications ]

[Return] 1-2611, [Q]uit: +

-=/[ [336] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Round-Table ]

[Return] 1-336, [Q]uit: +

-=/[ [44] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#1) ]/=-

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 44
Subject: What is Wired?
From: will (Will Kreth)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 16:35:46 EDT

Well, now it's a forum on Mindvox and you are invited to discuss whatever
you wish. The second issue is due to hit the newsstands on April 27th. If
you made it to our launch events in SF (in January) or NYC (April 12th),
let us know what you think.

The second issue has an article on Cypherpunk (cryptography) by Steven
Levy; an article on 3DO by Joe Flower; an article on East Indian
satellite-dish hackers (Dish-Wallahs) by Jeff Greenwald; a look at what
Jaron Lanier is up to since VPL booted him out - by Burr Snider; and a
review of ABC TV's new VR-themed television series "Wild Palms" - by
Roger Ebert. And many other articles that you just might want to read -
but hey, you be the judge.

_________________________________________________________
Will Kreth Online Services Director
Wired Magazine info@wired.com
---------------------------------------------------------

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 17:12:46 EDT

will (Will Kreth) writes:

> Well, now it's a forum on Mindvox and you are invited to discuss whatever
> you wish. The second issue is due to hit the newsstands on April 27th. If
> you made it to our launch events in SF (in January) or NYC (April 12th),
> let us know what you think.

Wait a minute, the NYC party was April 12th? Was it at the Limelight?
Fuck!, someone promised me a ticket to this thing, and I guess they just
conveniently forgot about it. Grrrrrr..... Thanks a fucking lot.

> The second issue has an article on Cypherpunk (cryptography) by Steven
> Levy; an article on 3DO by Joe Flower; an article on East Indian
> satellite-dish hackers (Dish-Wallahs) by Jeff Greenwald; a look at what
> Jaron Lanier is up to since VPL booted him out - by Burr Snider; and a
> review of ABC TV's new VR-themed television series "Wild Palms" - by
> Roger Ebert. And many other articles that you just might want to read -
> but hey, you be the judge.
Despite all this, I love the magzine. I'm dying to read Levy's article,
from what I heard, it is going to be the most definitive piece on the
cypherpunk/cryptography/pgp movement yet. Roger Ebert? You mean that
short fat movie review guy? What the fuck does he know about VR? I
thought he was more interested in stuffing his fat face with popcorn.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 3 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 19:24:50 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> Despite all this, I love the magzine. I'm dying to read Levy's article,
> from what I heard, it is going to be the most definitive piece on the
> cypherpunk/cryptography/pgp movement yet. Roger Ebert? You mean that
> short fat movie review guy? What the fuck does he know about VR? I
> thought he was more interested in stuffing his fat face with popcorn.

Well, he certainly loves his computers. He's a CompuServe fanatic of the
Limbaugh school. Whether there's artificial butter flavoring on his
keyboard is open for discussion.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 4 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: redeye (Sigmund Obispo)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 19:58:10 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4JXy2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

What pray tell is a CI$ fanatic of the Limbaugh school? Or do I want to
know.

red

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 5 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 20:07:18 EDT

redeye (Sigmund Obispo) writes:

> What pray tell is a CI$ fanatic of the Limbaugh school? Or do I want to
> know.

You probably don't, :)...but when I meant is that Ebert is a constant
presence over there. He has in own section in the Showbiz forum where
he'll answer just about any question you give him, and often throw in a
snipe at Siskel in the process. All his syndicated reviews are also
available in Basic Services there.

Limbaugh School just means he loves it as much as Rush does.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 6 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: digital (Patrick K. Kroupa)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 20:13:00 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> Wait a minute, the NYC party was April 12th? Was it at the Limelight?
> Fuck!, someone promised me a ticket to this thing, and I guess they just
> conveniently forgot about it. Grrrrrr..... Thanks a fucking lot.

Duggal

Oh I forgot to tell you that, sorry . . . I was wondering why you
didn't show up, the SwEdIsh bikini Team was asking for you. BuMmer.

*&_*#@&$_@#$_*#@&$_#@&$_*#@&$_#@*&$@#$
* Lord Digital / LOD / APple)(MafIA! *
*&_*#@&$_@#$_*#@&$_#@&$_*#@&$_#@*&$@#$
CaMa aMa LaMa D1ng d()nG elllllllllm0s

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 7 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: stevek (Steve K)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 20:27:10 EDT

digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:

> Oh I forgot to tell you that, sorry . . . I was wondering why you
> didn't show up, the SwEdIsh bikini Team was asking for you. BuMmer.

Now I know why Pat never logs on.. He is spending all his time watching
Married with Children too.. <the swedish bikini team was on there last night>

____________________________
| stevek@mindvox.phantom.com ||
| or kann@bitsy.cooper.edu ||
=============================/

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 8 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 20:44:49 EDT

stevek (Steve K) writes:

> digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:
>
> > Oh I forgot to tell you that, sorry . . . I was wondering why you
> > didn't show up, the SwEdIsh bikini Team was asking for you. BuMmer.
>
> Now I know why Pat never logs on.. He is spending all his time watching
> Married with Children too.. <the swedish bikini team was on there last night
>

OH MY GOD Patrick you posted twice! You've got to stop this, before you
know it you'll be logging in every 2 or 3 months and then what????? you'll
become addicted like the rest of us.

Married with Children is taped, Wired was live and from what I hear
everyone was there (except Thug), did the Swedish Bikini Team really show
up????

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 9 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 20:59:27 EDT

digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:

> thug (Murdering Thug) writes:
>
> > Wait a minute, the NYC party was April 12th? Was it at the Limelight?
> > Fuck!, someone promised me a ticket to this thing, and I guess they just
> > conveniently forgot about it. Grrrrrr..... Thanks a fucking lot.
>
> Oh I forgot to tell you that, sorry . . . I was wondering why you
> didn't show up, the SwEdIsh bikini Team was asking for you. BuMmer.
>
> *&_*#@&$_@#$_*#@&$_#@&$_*#@&$_#@*&$@#$
> * Lord Digital / LOD / APple)(MafIA! *
> *&_*#@&$_@#$_*#@&$_#@&$_*#@&$_#@*&$@#$
> CaMa aMa LaMa D1ng d()nG elllllllllm0s

Yeah well, just wait and see. When I rent out Giants Stadium for ThugFest
'95, just see if you can get in. Not only will I have the Swedish Bikini
Team there, all the Playboy centerfold girls from 1980-1995, porn's top
actresses, but 75,000 of my closest friends who will drink more than
150,000 gallons of imported european beer and party for a week straight.
Pat, you just wish that you'll get a ticket... Pbbbbbbbllllllllttttt...

(((((((((((((((((((((*)))))))))))))))))))))))))
(( ))
(( Murdering Thug / COD / k00l/RaD Alliance! ))
(( ))
(((((((((((((((((((((*)))))))))))))))))))))))))

P.S. Oh, and did I mention, every person who attends ThugFest '95 will
receive a gallon of concentrated LSD as a door prize. So double
pbbbbllllttttttt..... Eat your heart out!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 10 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: deckard (Mike Gwertzman)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 22:37:30 EDT
In-Reply-To: <sX2y2B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

You know, there actually is a porn star on America Online. Anyone heard
of Brandy Alexandre? She's really friendly too.

-d2

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 11 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 22:40:07 EDT

deckard (Mike Gwertzman) writes:

> You know, there actually is a porn star on America Online. Anyone heard
> of Brandy Alexandre? She's really friendly too.

The readhead? Oh god.... Oh god... Oh god.. Oh...ohh... aaaaaahhhhhhh...

*** Thug sleeps for a half hour.

Mike, you WILL tell me her Internet address NOW! (brandy@aol.com??? or is it
something different?) You must tell me..

Hey, how come Mindvox doesn't have any porn stars? Wil Wheaton is no
substitue for Brandy Alexander or Hypatia Lee. Let's get some REAL celebs
on here, damn it!

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 12 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: deckard (Mike Gwertzman)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 22:59:23 EDT
In-Reply-To: <kL7y2B10w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

If I'm not mistaken, I think she is a blonde? I know she has directed
some films (she told me) such as the immortal "Cheeks 5" and "De Blonde"?
She doesn't do magazines either. But if you want to talk to her her
email address is "brandyalx@aol.com"

Speaking of celebs, where is DEEEEEEEE-LITE?!

-d2

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 13 of 44
Subject: Wired
From: mwark (McKenzie Wark)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 07:49:58 EDT
In-Reply-To: <oH8y2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Looking forward to the new issue, just to, uh, get back on thread. (Not
that i really care, mind you...)

__________________________________________________________________________

"We no longer have roots, we have aerials." - McKenzie Wark

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 14 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: catfood (Duke Sexton)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 10:17:18 EDT

will (Will Kreth) writes:

> The second issue has an article on Cypherpunk (cryptography) by Steven
> Levy; an article on 3DO by Joe Flower; an article on East Indian
> satellite-dish hackers (Dish-Wallahs) by Jeff Greenwald; a look at what
> Jaron Lanier is up to since VPL booted him out - by Burr Snider; and a
> review of ABC TV's new VR-themed television series "Wild Palms" - by
> Roger Ebert. And many other articles that you just might want to read -
> but hey, you be the judge.

Yo, Kreth!

What's the deal with Gareth's 'Desire to be Wired' article?
Is it scheduled for this issue, or is it still being held up by one of
the editors? I got a chance to glance through it while he was putting it
together--cool stuff, dude.

-c-

_____________________________________________________________________________
=] catfood@mindvox.phantom.com "With the guts of the last Priest,
=] catfood@well.sf.ca.us let us strangle the last King."
=] catfood@gagme.chi.il.us -Diederot
------------------ ---- --- ---- - --- -- - - -

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 15 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 11:57:44 EDT

digital (Patrick K. Kroupa) writes:

> thug (Murdering Thug) writes:
>
> > Wait a minute, the NYC party was April 12th? Was it at the Limelight?
> > Fuck!, someone promised me a ticket to this thing, and I guess they just
> > conveniently forgot about it. Grrrrrr..... Thanks a fucking lot.
>
> it was at Duggal
>
> Oh I forgot to tell you that, sorry . . . I was wondering why you
> didn't show up, the SwEdIsh bikini Team was asking for you. BuMmer.
>
> *&_*#@&$_@#$_*#@&$_#@&$_*#@&$_#@*&$@#$
> * Lord Digital / LOD / APple)(MafIA! *
> *&_*#@&$_@#$_*#@&$_#@&$_*#@&$_#@*&$@#$
> CaMa aMa LaMa D1ng d()nG elllllllllm0s
>
One complaint to voice very loud, this one is directed to Mr. Dav in
particular, who is one the west coast and wouldn't know which was was up,
down or sideways if he didn't repost and requote one of my messages almost
to the word, without my permission and send it to a mailing list.

If you want to give your opinion of something, great, but don't be so lame
as to take someone else's, namely MINE and then send it to a list taking
credit for it.

That said, Wired #2 is looking good, great party, you should have been
there Thug :) everyone else was :):):)

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 16 of 44
Subject: Re: What is Wired?
From: cbayers (Chip Bayers)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 12:20:26 EDT

will (Will Kreth) writes:

> Well, now it's a forum on Mindvox and you are invited to discuss whatever
> you wish. The second issue is due to hit the newsstands on April 27th. If
> you made it to our launch events in SF (in January) or NYC (April 12th),
> let us know what you think.
>

The party was great, except for the guy in the cheap used suit who
didn't shower. Boy, did he smell bad, all sweaty in that poly/wool blend
I bet. The whole outfit went overboard in the personal statement
department. Like any other downtown party: people wearing <anything> to
try and be K00\_.

*************************************************************
* Chip Bayers "It's the End of the World as We Know It, *
* And I Feel Fine" *
* cbayers@mindvox.phantom.com Compuserve: 75160,1077 *
*************************************************************

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 17 of 44
Subject: Inslaw article
From: strat (Bob Stratton)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 04:07:35 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Rk9Z2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

As a DC-area type with some years in the industry and too many friends of
friends of people in the article, I found it to be amazingly well-researched
and interesting.

It's easy to become jaded about things inside the Beltway, and your
magazine woke me up a bit.

--Strat

The Constitution isn't perfect, but it's a damn sight better than what we
have now.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 18 of 44
Subject: Re: Inslaw article
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 12:24:55 EDT
In-Reply-To: <cFg22B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Is Wired #2 out? I can't find it anywhere and all of you act like you've
read it already!

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 19 of 44
Subject: Re: Inslaw article
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 12:56:00 EDT

deadboy (The Dead) writes:

>
> Is Wired #2 out? I can't find it anywhere and all of you act like you've
> read it already!

I think they saw a preview of it at this party I passed up a chance
to go to. The new one is supposed to be out April 27th.

Sulam

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.

Just make sure you shave your head for the camera.
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 20 of 44
Subject: Issue 2 distribution
From: will (Will Kreth)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 00:14:58 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2JZ42B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

We've been getting reports that the magazine is getting out to the
newsstand much faster than we anticipated (in certain areas). I have
currently no way of knowing which cities - but have heard of newsstands
sightings in Ohio, DC, NYC and Toronto. The party attendees did get comp
issues. Hope everyone drank as much as they needed to feel cozy. Barlow -
what did you think? I now understand what you were saying about COSTS and
REVS.

More info about distribution is due next week. If you attend a university,
and can coerce or convince them to send a hard-copy request on letterhead
from your schools library - we'll send a sample copy.

Snail-
Wired
Library Samples
P.o. box 191826
SF, CA 94119-1826
------------------------------------------------------------
Will Kreth Online Services Dir. info@wired.com
Wired Magazine will@mindvox.phantom.com
------------------------------------------------------------
*deep 69 or yer 86'd! - meester*

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 21 of 44
Subject: Desire Wired
From: will (Will Kreth)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 00:30:24 EDT

In # 14, Catfood asked about Gareth's "Desire Wired" article. I'm not sure
- but that could have turned into "jargon Watch" - in the new issue.

I'm not sure. Check it out.

------------------------------------------------------------
Will Kreth Online Services Dir. info@wired.com
Wired Magazine will@mindvox.phantom.com
------------------------------------------------------------

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 22 of 44
Subject: Wired
From: pkk (james kelly)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 22:39:04 EDT

Hey Wired...

Well... I saw the billboards for your mag in midtown over the last week
or so. Saw the first issue in a news kiosk. The Grfx are amazing! Give
yourself a "High Vividness" index. Well worth the 5 spuds I laid out.

Tnx for a good mag..

l8trz... <pkk>

pkk - pkk@mindvox.phantom.com - pkk mods

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 23 of 44
Subject: Warning to Wired Subscribers
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 12:37:05 EDT

Warning: DO NOT put joke titles in the Occupation line of your Wired
Subscription Card, because Wired will print it, and your mailman will give
you funny looks.

-3j

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 24 of 44
Subject: Re: Warning to Wired Subscribers
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 13:14:25 EDT
In-Reply-To: <icXg3B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

You mean like what it says on mine, "VP of Weasel Breading Operations"?
Hmmm, I don't think it matters, since postal employees are psychotic
anyway, and couldn't really give a shit what it says on your mailing label.

Thug

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 25 of 44
Subject: Subscribe, yes...subscribe, no.
From: gearhead (Sean Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 16:28:19 EDT
In-Reply-To: <q3yg3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I've thought about subscribing but with the way the mailman crams my mail
in the box, I'm afraid my beautiful Wireds would get FUBAR.

BTW, picked up Issue 1.2 in the Port Authority bus terminal here in NY
on Monday. I was glad to see it prominently displayed but they didn't
have many left.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 26 of 44
Subject: Re: Subscribe, yes...subscribe, no.
From: soniq (David Vogt)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 20:12:28 EDT
In-Reply-To: <w28g3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Finally hooked up wit' an INTACT copy of ish 1.2. Had previously run a-x
multilated copies at 2 other newstands [X's slashed a-x cover when cutting
wrap from the bundle, apparently...] @ Gem-Spa (2nd 'n' St. Marks) I asked
if they'd cut me a deal for a hacked ver. ;-) Reply?: "No Way!, I can
return it for full price and not lose any $." My Reply? "Oh, Yeah?" [as I
drop several beverages and confections on the counter and make my way to
the bodega a-x the street. Come to think of it when I first spotted a
copy of ish 1.1 @ Hudson News (Bdwy 'n' 8th) the cover was X'd but the had
a fresh stack behind the counter. Pretty fuckin' WEIRD huh? (Sorry but I
couldn't resist the anagram).

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 27 of 44
Subject: Wired where ?
From: kai (Kai Schlichting)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 21:16:09 EDT
In-Reply-To: <HFiH3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well,would someone please be so kind and post a hint where to
get wired in D.C. ?
thanx,bye,Kai.

--- ---
"We're second to none" - George Bush talking about environmental issues
at Rio '92 Earth Conference.
The U.S. still uses more than twice the energy per capita as any other
country in the world,while the number of homicides is just 5 times as high.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 28 of 44
Subject: Re: Wired where ?
From: inhuman (Inhuman)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 21:30:50 EDT
In-Reply-To: <mDLH3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

You might try Reiter's bookstore at 21st & K NW (near Farragut
North), or Bick's Books in Adams Morgan, or Vertigo Books near Dupont
Circle. One of those places is bound to have it...

Michael | "I've begun to wonder if we wouldn't
(inhuman@mindvox.phantom.com) | also regard spelunkers as desperate
| criminals if AT&T owned all the
...trance form...trance send... | caves." --John Perry Barlow

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 29 of 44
Subject: Re: Wired where ?
From: kai (Kai Schlichting)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 22:30:24 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4PgJ3B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

thanx,Inhuman....always good to get to know some locals (:-)
bye,Kai.

--- ---
"We're second to none" - George Bush talking about environmental issues
at Rio '92 Earth Conference.
The U.S. still uses more than twice the energy per capita as any other
country in the world,while the number of homicides is just 5 times as high.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 30 of 44
Subject: Re: Wired where ?
From: ozone (Al Macey)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 00:44:38 EDT
In-Reply-To: <DHJJ3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

CHrist, I get mine at Barnes and Noble.

The big bookstore chain with the big bookstore chain feel.

Ozone
- Surreal McCoy

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 31 of 44
Subject: New issue of Wired
From: liqjesus (Ray Michno)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 13:56:13 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4oPJ3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, I managed to pick up the latest issue yesterday (I haven't
finished it yet) and I'm generally pleased with it. The magazine
still is a little too artsy fartsy in some places (I loved Steve
Jackson's letter about playing "hunt-for-the-next-paragraph". Maybe
the mag will change over time.
Only one letter complaining about last issue's Logitech ad (the
urinating baby)? Not bad! I thought more prudes would write.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 32 of 44
Subject: Re: New issue of Wired
From: lex (Lex Luthor)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 15:30:13 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ecqk3B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, the 'hunt for the next paragraph' scheme does keep my thoughts on
whatever it is that I'm reading and not on a myriad of other things that
are on my mind which constantly fight for attention.

Steve Levy's article on the 'cipherpunks' was excellent. It gives the
reader technical information in plain english and provides some nice
historical details of encryption in general and PGP.

I don't subscribe to any mag. but 90% of Wired's articles I am interested
in so I think I will save a few $$$ and subscribe rather than keep buying
at the bookstore.

Wired's distribution channels seem a bit tortuous as I have had issue 2
for 2-3 weeks now, and some people are just finding it in the stores now.
Glad I was a location at the end of a fast track.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 33 of 44
Subject: Re: New issue of Wired
From: gjb (Gregory J. Brail)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 18:43:14 EDT

lex (Lex Luthor) writes:

> Well, the 'hunt for the next paragraph' scheme does keep my thoughts on
> whatever it is that I'm reading and not on a myriad of other things that
> are on my mind which constantly fight for attention.

Personally, when I have to hunt with a magnifying glass for the next
paragraph, I'm tempted to just give up and read the next article unless
what I'm reading is really interesting. I bet lots of people subconsciously
skipped (i.e. lost interest without realizing why) parts of the first Wired
for that reason. But I'll have to check out the second issue.

greg

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 34 of 44
Subject: Re: Desire Wired
From: catfood (Duke Sexton)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 22:53:27 EDT

will (Will Kreth) writes:

> In # 14, Catfood asked about Gareth's "Desire Wired" article. I'm not sure
> - but that could have turned into "jargon Watch" - in the new issue.
>
> I'm not sure. Check it out.
>

Finally managed to find the new issue so I could check out what
you were referring to, Will. No, that's not really related to the
article Gareth showed me (with the exception of the one reference to
'wireheading'). Gareth's article dealt a lot more with 'borging and
hacking a physical interface into the brain (_real_ research into
'jacking in').
Hopefully it just got delayed by an issue or two....

-c-

(Oh, the new issue is pretty cool, BTW. Much more enthralling than
the first, IMHO.)

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 35 of 44
Subject: I Desire Wired
From: ehsmith (Ethan H. Smith)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 00:53:06 EDT
In-Reply-To: <s8eL3B6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Hey, I go to school in a small, somewhat isolated town in Massachussetts
(how idyllic!). The manager of the local bookstore sez he'd be happy to
carry Wired if I tell him who ditributes it. Could anybody take a look at
the contents page and see who their distributor is? Or tell me if you
have some idea how I can find that info out? Thank youse.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 36 of 44
Subject: Re: I Desire Wired
From: awright (neuron)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 01:08:34 EDT
In-Reply-To: <8qkL3B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Wired USA
544 Second Street
San Fransisco CA 94107
415-904-0660
LR@Wired.com

BTW, give me a call if you want to borrw the first issue. I can drop it
in your SU Box if you are interested. But I'll need it back soon, I'm
using it for a paper for my Body self and Culture class.

-N

-------------------------------------------------------------------
93asw@williams.edu awright@phantom.com

Advertising is the pornography of capitalism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 37 of 44
Subject: Re: I Desire Wired
From: sheldon (Jeremy Day)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 14:44:22 EDT

awright (neuron) writes:

> Wired USA
> 544 Second Street
> San Fransisco CA 94107
> 415-904-0660
> LR@Wired.com

Hey, thanks for posting that. It reminded me to once again visit the
school bookstore. They had actually heard of the magazine this time and
were looking for the address! Wowee, Thunder Bay, Ontario might get
Wired before much of the U.S., from what I hear.

.sheldon

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 38 of 44
Subject: yup
From: sassy (Sassy Magazine)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 20:59:46 EDT
In-Reply-To: <N9mm3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

liking it. a lot.

love the graphics. the whole design (tho the type is a bit hard on the
eyes sometimes). the awesome heft (nice brawny stock, will!!). the color.
absolutely tasty.

i'm probably a minority here in that i preferred the first issue (tho no
judgement can be passed till we see a few more), 'cause it was more
accessible to generalists--those of us who are fascinated by the First
Amendment in cyberspace, in how technology affects even those who aren't
aware that they're soaking in it. Like, I so dug the "War is Virtual
Hell" piece and the what's gonna happen to libraries piece. The Camille
Paglia thing was beyond brill, an illustration of how design and edit can
work together in the best possible way. Fucking hilarious and
thought-provoking, too. And the Otaku piece definitely could've run in
Sassy (did i mention i hate you for knowing about this subculture when we
didn't?)
the second issue was a lot more technology-specific somehow, and the
profiles didn't entice me--maybe 'cause i'm just a caveman. i know not of
your fancy computer ways. Liked Crypto Rebels a lot tho, since it was
about issues more than toys or tools. Still, can't wait to see more. And
groove on your art direction more.

i would say this even if we weren't on the "wired" list. i did go hee hee
hee hee hee hee (in the best possible way) when i saw that.

--margie

oh, i believe "The music that helped get this magazine out" was chomped
from Dirt, our brother publication. hm?

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 39 of 44
Subject: Re: yup
From: deckard (Mike Gwertzman)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 23:01:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Bm5m3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Why dont you quit Sassy, hmmm?

Maybe JANE PRATT would be interested in your little bit of treason here.

=======================================================================
Deckard@phantom.com ][ "I don't want to shout it out, I don't want my
Mike Gwertzman ][ hair to fall out, I don't want to be filled
========================][ with doubt, I don't want to be a good boy
][ scout, I don't want to have to learn to count,
][ no I don't want to grow up."
][ - Tom Waits, "I don't want to grow up"

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 40 of 44
Subject: Re: yup
From: kurtphil (Kurt Phillips)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 00:04:47 EDT
In-Reply-To: <090m3B5w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Urinating babies: where else aside from Mondo has that LogiTech ad
appeared?

and why the hell do I want to know...?

K.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 41 of 44
Subject: Re: yup
From: awright (neuron)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 00:18:37 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ou8o3B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Did you notice that the stream of the baby's urine was redirected in the
Wired ad? It used to be landing (or about to land) on the baby's own stomach.

I haven't seen the ad anywhere else.

But I'd like to.

-N

-------------------------------------------------------------------
93asw@williams.edu awright@mindvox.phantom.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 42 of 44
Subject: Re: yup
From: alex (Alex Zelchenko)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 14:48:48 EDT
In-Reply-To: <PH9o3B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yes, I have seen it elsewhere, but don't recall where.

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[Return] 1-44, [Q]uit:
Post: 43 of 44
Subject: Re: yup
From: allah (Alex Metcalf)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 22:03:59 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2Rcq3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

If y'all are so interested you can come over to my place and watch my kid
piss into the air for hours on end...

AL X

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

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Post: 44 of 44
Subject: Media Foundation
From: critic (Terry Palfrey)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 03:16:07 EDT
In-Reply-To: <cXwq3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Folks at the Media Foundation here in Vancouver were pleased with the
review in Wired#2 on their Adbusters Quarterly. I am doing my darndest to
get them online as well. Any advice is welcomed and any encouragement to
them is appreciated.

Here's their latest campaign:

The Second Annual - Intra National

:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:
-=|] B u y - 0 - D a y [|=-
:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:

Last year, on Thursday, September 24, 1992, a new holiday was born.

Unlike most other holidays, this day long event discourages
celebratory purchases in its name.
In fact just the opposite.

Held every September 24th, BUY NOTHING DAY is a twenty four hour,
continent-wide moratorium on consumer spending, designed to
remind both the public and the retailer of the true power of the
buying public. It is an exercise in financial self-control. It is
a reclamation of consumer control of the marketplace. It is a
gesture of protest for those of us who all too often feel as if
our lives and dreams have been marketed back to us.

Participate by not participating.
Stock up now, and on Friday, September 24, 1993, buy nothing.

For more details or Poster-Bumper Sticker designs contact:

The Media Foundation - Adbusters Quarterly
1243 W 7th Ave Vancouver, B.C., Canada, V6H 1B7
Phone: 604-736-9401 Fax: 604-737-6021

And you guys - keep up the good work!!

[ Area: CyberSpace / Forum: Wired ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-44] [Q]uit: +

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[ Area: Drugs / Forum: Cognitive-Enhancement ]

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[ Area: Drugs / Forum: Discussion ]

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[ Area: Health / Forum: Life-Extension ]

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[ Area: Health / Forum: Weight-Loss ]

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[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Vox ]

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[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Archives ]

[Return] 1-57, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 57
Subject: Wow, the first one!
From: purlah (The Dc Duke)
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 11:46:37 EST

The archives do seem a bit bare for practical usage right now.
Are there any plans to integrate a WAIS client or similar network
anonymous file grabber?
Also, what kinds of wacky things are in demand? If each of us
knew what the others were looking for, we could help eachother out.
perhaps that would be a good start for this forum?

excited to have the first message,
purlah

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Archives ]

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[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Introductions ]

[Return] 1-367, [Q]uit: -

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 1 of 133
Subject: Ikki ikki ikki kebang
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 93 10:18:10 EDT

Surely no one would be so crass as to suggest the help files aren't
enough, eh? Or that the Vox management might not be answering their phones?

I suggest that no one post here actually asking for help, so that we can
take over this board for more useful purposes.

How about an alternate to alt.irc.recovery?

We could all post here about how we need to spend less time on the Vox.

Hello. My name is Sulam, I mean James, and I'm a Voxaddict.

jlw@shekel.cs.columbia.edu

Missing: one .sig, small (four lines), wickedly cute, a standard quote
structure, low on graphic impact but high on literary significance (and
just chock full of VOX ramifications). Call 1 800 SIG HUP for a reward.
[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 2 of 133
Subject: Re: Ikki ikki ikki kebang
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 93 13:16:28 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Zwyo2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I am confused, how do I post messages?

I also can't irc, ftp, telnet, or find my shift key.

Can anyone help me/

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 3 of 133
Subject: Re: Ikki ikki ikki kebang
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 93 13:18:39 EDT
In-Reply-To: <667o2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

WHO NEEDS A SHIFT KEY/ JUST USE CAPS LOCK
AND EVERYTHING LOOKS GREAT111

- DROW -

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 4 of 133
Subject: you all make me SICK
From: carlos (Carlos Dominguez)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 93 14:14:17 EDT
In-Reply-To: <s07o2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

..use a real mans machine.

GET A MINITEL AND SPEAK FRENCH! ... not

couldnt resist.

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez - GO HELLDIVER GO !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@carlos.jpr.com carlos@phantom.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@dorsai.dorsai.org FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 5 of 133
Subject: Re: you all make me SICK
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 93 16:48:49 EDT

carlos (Carlos Dominguez) writes:

> ..use a real mans machine.
>
> GET A MINITEL AND SPEAK FRENCH! ... not
>

_New York_ magazine is selling :ahem: "reconditioned" Minitels for $30.
Lots of fun at naughty parties...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 6 of 133
Subject: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: elwood (eli tishberg)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 01:54:26 EDT
In-Reply-To: <3ZgP2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

help !!!!
I'm curious.....
1-If I want to dl all the new msgs so I can read 'em offline (this
goes for USENET Stuff too !) is there any easy efficient way ?
2-When I am in my HOME area, is there any way I can dl more than
one hing at a time ?
3-If I fall into a pool of water wearing my hawaiian shorts
will I be able to eat lunch ?

just curious...anyone ?
+ l-wood -

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 7 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 02:40:44 EDT

elwood (eli tishberg) writes:

> 1-If I want to dl all the new msgs so I can read 'em offline (this
> goes for USENET Stuff too !) is there any easy efficient way ?

Good point!

We need a QWK mail system here, so we can create QWK packets, download
them, and read them offline.

This would also free up your telephone lines, Vox guys!

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

[Return] 1-133, [Q]uit:
Post: 8 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 02:42:57 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> elwood (eli tishberg) writes:
>
> > 1-If I want to dl all the new msgs so I can read 'em offline (this
> > goes for USENET Stuff too !) is there any easy efficient way ?
>
> Good point!
>
> We need a QWK mail system here, so we can create QWK packets, download
> them, and read them offline.
>
> This would also free up your telephone lines, Vox guys!

I don't think that reading news/forums/mail is actually what ties up
the lines. I know it takes me less that 30 minutes to complete all
that. What ties up the lines is IRC. Some people stay in IRC for
10 to 15 hours at a time. So unless you can figure out a way to
tunnel IRC through QWK packets, I'd say all hope is lost. The cure
is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.

Thug

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 9 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 02:47:50 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ai9P2B15w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

charge by the hour.. oh, that's brilliant, thug.
discourage people to hang around,
great strategy.

uh-huh.

- drow -

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 10 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 03:07:41 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> I don't think that reading news/forums/mail is actually what ties up
> the lines. I know it takes me less that 30 minutes to complete all

You don't read too many newsgroups, or write too many replies, it seems.

Some days I read 2000 or more messages and write 20 or so replies. That
can take 3 or 4 hours.

> tunnel IRC through QWK packets, I'd say all hope is lost. The cure
> is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
> to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.

I certainly hope not. I haven't experienced any busy signal problems, and
I haven't heard of any. So let'd not go suggesting hourly fees all of a
sudden... exactly what I DON'T want to happen.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 11 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 03:33:33 EDT
In-Reply-To: <iN0P2B8w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

well I for one have encountered busy signals, but I guess FTP makes it all
worthwhile. I mean can't my U do better tha 2400? They're about to
upgrade to s00per 9600! big deal! 14.4 rocks (even if it takes a little
time getting on)

VoxOn!

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 12 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 06:01:42 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> thug (Murdering Thug) writes:
>
> > I don't think that reading news/forums/mail is actually what ties up
> > the lines. I know it takes me less that 30 minutes to complete all
>
> You don't read too many newsgroups, or write too many replies, it seems.
>
> Some days I read 2000 or more messages and write 20 or so replies. That
> can take 3 or 4 hours.

Wow you type a lot! :) But thug is probably right, for me at least it
takes around 30 minutes to an hour, if it takes an hour its because I'm
talking with someone online. What kills phone lines dead in their tracks
are people sitting in IRC 8 hours a day so unless they figure out how to
make people hallucinate and just think theyre sitting in IRC 8 hours a day
while they stare at a wall, its not going to make a difference to anyone
except for you and the 2 other people who spend that much time reading and
replying to usenet.

>
> > tunnel IRC through QWK packets, I'd say all hope is lost. The cure
> > is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
> > to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.
>
> I certainly hope not. I haven't experienced any busy signal problems, and
> I haven't heard of any. So let'd not go suggesting hourly fees all of a
> sudden... exactly what I DON'T want to happen.
>

I got busy's twice so far, both at around 1am, redialed and got in within
a few minutes, but the newser bigger faster Vox is making people stick
around for a long time. Maybe they should break something and discourage
people from staying on :)

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 13 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: bwp (Jane Doe)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 11:39:53 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
> to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.

Say, you worked on the original Macintosh Portable design team too, right?

-3j

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 14 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 11:41:25 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ai9P2B15w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'd be happy with Eudora support, whcih Patrick said was coming eventually...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 15 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: molbloo (Alissa Bader)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 11:34:27 EDT
In-Reply-To: <JPHq2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Bwah hah hah. I telnet out here (no sense paying tremendous long
distance bills when you have a University of Iowa unix account) and I've
never had any problems connecting. However, I know how bad tied-up phone
lines can be. We don't live in the dorms here, and most of the
university's computer lines have a direct tie-in to those. That leaves
about 25 or so portal ports left for the rest of campus. It's not too bad
if you call up during the day from home, which I sometimes do. However,
if you call up during the evening, like between 7 and midnight, you're
screwed. I think the record for constant (not wardialing, just constant)
attempts for us was about four hours once? Someting like that. So yeah.

Anyway....on other stuff. how do you make a planin your finger
information?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 16 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: n2shu (Michael GF Chin)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 13:36:02 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> I don't think that reading news/forums/mail is actually what ties up
> the lines. I know it takes me less that 30 minutes to complete all
> that. What ties up the lines is IRC. Some people stay in IRC for
> 10 to 15 hours at a time. So unless you can figure out a way to
> tunnel IRC through QWK packets, I'd say all hope is lost. The cure
> is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
> to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.
>
>
>
> Thug

I don't think charging by the hour is a good idea. If the lines really
start to get tied up, MindVox should either:
1) get more phone lines, or
2) limit the amount of time to 5 hours per login (NOT per day).
Most of the users here would be unaffected by such a rule.
As for those of you who stay in front of a terminal for
10-15 hours at a time, you'd just have to get in line to
login again--and it'd be a good reminder to go out and get
a life!

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 17 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 14:12:04 EDT

n2shu (Michael GF Chin) writes:

> thug (Murdering Thug) writes:
>
> > I don't think that reading news/forums/mail is actually what ties up
> > the lines. I know it takes me less that 30 minutes to complete all
> > that. What ties up the lines is IRC. Some people stay in IRC for
> > 10 to 15 hours at a time. So unless you can figure out a way to
> > tunnel IRC through QWK packets, I'd say all hope is lost. The cure
> > is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
> > to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thug
>
> I don't think charging by the hour is a good idea. If the lines really
> start to get tied up, MindVox should either:
> 1) get more phone lines, or
> 2) limit the amount of time to 5 hours per login (NOT per day).
> Most of the users here would be unaffected by such a rule.
> As for those of you who stay in front of a terminal for
> 10-15 hours at a time, you'd just have to get in line to
> login again--and it'd be a good reminder to go out and get
> a life!
>

#1 is a good idea, but there has to be a limit somewhere. A system like
Exec PC has 280 phone lines, and they still had to institute a time limit.
It seems a much better idea to actually pay for what you use. A person
who uses Vox for 5 hours a month shouldn't have to pay the same as a
person who uses Vox 5 hours a day. I don't like hourly fees either, but I
think a small one like $0.25-$0.50 per hour would discourage people from
hanging out on IRC or in muds for 15 hours at a time, just because they
are too cheap to make several local calls to vox during a single day.
Here in NYC, we have flat rate dialing, so a person can log in at 8AM and
log out at 3AM, and it would cost them only 10 cents. On the other hand
if they log off and log on several times a day, like when they have to go
eat lunch, go to school, or go to work, they would have to make multiple
local calls and (gasp!) perhaps spend as much as 40 cents that day instead
of 10.

Limit the amount of time per login is probably the best way to go, and 4-5
hours seems like a reasonable thing to do. And I agree, some people do
need to go out an get a life. You IRC and mud addicts know who you are.

Thug

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 18 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 15:37:11 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> It seems a much better idea to actually pay for what you use. A person
> who uses Vox for 5 hours a month shouldn't have to pay the same as a
> person who uses Vox 5 hours a day. I don't like hourly fees either, but I
> think a small one like $0.25-$0.50 per hour would discourage people from
> hanging out on IRC or in muds for 15 hours at a time, just because they
> are too cheap to make several local calls to vox during a single day.

This idea is rather moot, since as Charter Subscribers we've all already
been guaranteed that OUR rates will never go up.

> Here in NYC, we have flat rate dialing, so a person can log in at 8AM and

Flat-rate dialing is an *option* in NYC; not everyone has it.

I like the first idea better. No more than a few hours at a time, then
you get bumped. That way only the most insane would be affected.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 19 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 16:04:16 EDT

molbloo (Alissa Bader) writes:

> Bwah hah hah. I telnet out here (no sense paying tremendous long
> distance bills when you have a University of Iowa unix account) and I've
> never had any problems connecting. However, I know how bad tied-up phone

I telnet fron UC-Santa Cruz, and I've only had a buzy signal twice
'telnetd: out of ptys' Is it a frequent occurence for those dialing in?

> Anyway....on other stuff. how do you make a planin your finger
> information?

Its in your HOME section (type home from the main menu) then type plan.

-Tox

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 20 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 19:09:27 EDT

kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:

> Flat-rate dialing is an *option* in NYC; not everyone has it.

For consumer lines, I don't think there is any other option.

If there is, NYNEX is lying to me.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 21 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 20:50:57 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:
>
> > Flat-rate dialing is an *option* in NYC; not everyone has it.
>
> For consumer lines, I don't think there is any other option.
>
> If there is, NYNEX is lying to me.
>

For businesses there is no option either.

In summary:

Residents - untimed calls.
Businesses - timed calls.
Deadbeats - lifeline service ($1/month but leave us the fuck alone).
Makes it kind of easy on Nynex's accounting department I suppose.

Damn, I wish I was on welfare so my phone bill would be only $1/month for
the basic access rate. Then I would log into Vox and stay on forever on a
single late-night 4.6 cent call. Thus I would end up paying $1.05 for the
first month, and $1/month for each month afterwards.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 22 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 21:03:21 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:
>
> > Flat-rate dialing is an *option* in NYC; not everyone has it.
>
> For consumer lines, I don't think there is any other option.
>
> If there is, NYNEX is lying to me.

They're lying. Isn't all of this info in the front of the White Pages?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 23 of 133
Subject: Help with ftp
From: linus (Mark Mixson)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 23:23:08 EDT

OK, I understand ftp is on, but how can I access and use it? When I type
"ftp" or "telnet" at the main menu, I get this - "ftp>" I've typed in my
"destination" but get "invalid response."

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for any assistance.

Mark

P.S.: Why isn't there a help file or any info at all about this on the
Main Menu info list? Or have I just not found it?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 24 of 133
Subject: Re: Help with ftp
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 23:31:44 EDT

linus (Mark Mixson) writes:

> OK, I understand ftp is on, but how can I access and use it? When I type
> "ftp" or "telnet" at the main menu, I get this - "ftp>" I've typed in my
> "destination" but get "invalid response."

The simplist solution is to not get dropped down to the prompt. Simply
enter "ftp where.you.want" or "telnet lets.go.here", and avoid the prompt
entirely. The less simple solution is, at the prompt, type "open
lets.go.here" or "connect lets.go.here".

Shannon, PseudoKieran for the evening

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 25 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: billp49 (William Page)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 00:00:11 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> thug (Murdering Thug) writes:
>
> > tunnel IRC through QWK packets, I'd say all hope is lost. The cure
> > is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
> > to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.
>
> I certainly hope not. I haven't experienced any busy signal problems, and
> I haven't heard of any. So let'd not go suggesting hourly fees all of a
> sudden... exactly what I DON'T want to happen.
>

I couldn't get on tonight via the phone because I DID get a busy
signal. Had to telnet over from somewhere else.
:( Bill

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 26 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 01:35:44 EDT

kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:
> lyre (Lyre) writes:
> > kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:
> > > Flat-rate dialing is an *option* in NYC; not everyone has it.
> > For consumer lines, I don't think there is any other option.
> They're lying. Isn't all of this info in the front of the White Pages?

Yep, and why don't you read it before posting?

It clearly shows no timed message service available. All services are
untimed for consumers.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 27 of 133
Subject: Re: Help with ftp
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 01:37:12 EDT

linus (Mark Mixson) writes:

> OK, I understand ftp is on, but how can I access and use it? When I type
> "ftp" or "telnet" at the main menu, I get this - "ftp>" I've typed in my
> "destination" but get "invalid response."
> P.S.: Why isn't there a help file or any info at all about this on the
> Main Menu info list? Or have I just not found it?

Yes, there should be a help file.

But in the meantime, why don't you buy Nutshell (O'Reilly aned Associates)
book, The Whole Internet. It will tell you everything you need to know.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 28 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 01:38:43 EDT

billp49 (William Page) writes:

> I couldn't get on tonight via the phone because I DID get a busy
> signal. Had to telnet over from somewhere else.

Yep, I got one too. Took me 3 whole minutes of redialing to get in. Wow.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 29 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 01:53:26 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> It clearly shows no timed message service available. All services are
> untimed for consumers.

Either you live in a different part of NYC than I do, or NYNEX just
changed their rules in the last few months.

In any event, your general attitude annoys the hell out of me, so I'm out
of this thread. All I know is I distinctly remember changing my local
phone service a couple years ago from timed to untimed service, and that's
all there is to it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 30 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: stevek (Steve K)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 02:04:15 EDT

kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:

> Flat-rate dialing is an *option* in NYC; not everyone has it.

It may be an option, but the only people I know that DON'T have it are bbs
operators, or anyone else who has lines that they don't call out on..

> I like the first idea better. No more than a few hours at a time, then
> you get bumped. That way only the most insane would be affected.

I agree.. I have gotten busy signals a couple of times over the past two
days, but they haven't been bad at all. However there will probably be
lots of new users in the coming months, (sassy?) and that will make it worse.

I also think I remember seeing somewhere that the vox guys were planning
on getting other types of modems.. The telebits are nice, but asides from
the v32/v32bis protocols, HST is much more popular than telebit,
especially for BBS'ers. The HST's also _do_ come in rackmount versions,
and they are all v.fast upgradeable.

____________________________
| stevek@mindvox.phantom.com ||
| or kann@bitsy.cooper.edu ||
=============================/

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 31 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: stevek (Steve K)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 02:10:50 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> the basic access rate. Then I would log into Vox and stay on forever on a
> single late-night 4.6 cent call. Thus I would end up paying $1.05 for the

I always wanted to know if you make a call, and stay on the line for a
couple of days, or weeks, if they only charge you once, or once per day.
If they only charged you once, why would anyone buy a local leased line?

____________________________
| stevek@mindvox.phantom.com ||
| or kann@bitsy.cooper.edu ||
=============================/

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 32 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 02:30:17 EDT

kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:

> lyre (Lyre) writes:
>
> Either you live in a different part of NYC than I do, or NYNEX just
> changed their rules in the last few months.

Well, I'm looking in the 1992-1993 phonebook, so it would have to have
been a few more than a few months ago.

But don't trust me... look for yourself. I might have missed it.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 33 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 10:59:59 EDT

stevek (Steve K) writes:

> thug (Murdering Thug) writes:
>
> > the basic access rate. Then I would log into Vox and stay on forever on a
> > single late-night 4.6 cent call. Thus I would end up paying $1.05 for the
>
> I always wanted to know if you make a call, and stay on the line for a
> couple of days, or weeks, if they only charge you once, or once per day.
> If they only charged you once, why would anyone buy a local leased line?
>

They charge you once, for that call. And if you happen to dial that call
after 11PM, it will cost you only 4.6 cents, even if you stay on for six
months or even a year. This naturally would never happen with a voice
call, so NYNEX doesn't worry about it too much. BUT, as soon as they
start seeing how many people will actually be doing this by using their
residential line for a SLIP or PPP link to the Internet, they will be
flipping out. Can you imagine the guy who looks at the statistics charts
for NYNEX scratching his head at the well over 1000 residential lines who
have placed a local call that has lasted 10 months? He would start
shitting bricks. While a 10 month residential call would cost 4.6 cents,
the same call on a business line would cost (getting my calculator here)
at let's say 5 cents per minute:

0.05 dollars x 60 minutes x 24hrs x 30days x 10months = $21,600

Nynex would lose $21,599.95 on that little transaction.
Hahahahahaah!!!! And I bet they won't come looking for the people who
make 10 month long local calls because they DO say "untimed" in the
tariffs, and you are perfectly in your rights to have a personal SLIP link
to the Internet. By the way, PSI charges $175/month flat rate for SLIP,
while UUNET charges by the hour. So you can pull the stunt off with PSI
and NYNEX.

Thug

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 34 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: blade (Digital Blade)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 15:58:51 EDT
In-Reply-To: <o7Ps2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

You know thug..you're a wealth of information on how to screw the system. :>

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 35 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 16:29:26 EDT

blade (Digital Blade) writes:

> You know thug..you're a wealth of information on how to screw the system.:>

Gee, thanx. Did I ever tell you how I use phone line voltage to recharge
NiCd battaries, or how splitting your cable TV feed among five of your
neighbors can cut your monthly cable bill by 80%, or how about the
dozens of ways to obtain food for free, or how about how to rewire your
electric meter so it saves you 90% off your electric bill, or how to print
up your own bar codes and stick them on supermarket items in order to
reduce your food shopping bill by 80%? You haven't lived until you've
screwed the system in the ways I have.

Thug

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 36 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 16:53:54 EDT
In-Reply-To: <RF6s2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

....but that would be wrong, as Richard Nixon said.

Eh, Thug?

voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com

voidmstr's law (tm):
bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
============================================

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 37 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: sheldon (Jeremy Day)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 18:17:27 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> Gee, thanx. Did I ever tell you how I use phone line voltage to recharge
> NiCd battaries, or how splitting your cable TV feed among five of your
> neighbors can cut your monthly cable bill by 80%, or how about the
> dozens of ways to obtain food for free, or how about how to rewire your
> electric meter so it saves you 90% off your electric bill, or how to print
> up your own bar codes and stick them on supermarket items in order to
> reduce your food shopping bill by 80%? You haven't lived until you've
> screwed the system in the ways I have.

hahahahhaa.. I just had to follow up this thread. The phone line voltage
thing is neat, but what if someone phones you? <snicker>.. EVERYONE
splits their cable TV feed, I think. At least, it's common around here,
but I wouldn't mind hearing the 'dozens of ways to obtain food for
free', could come in useful soon.. I used to work in a supermarket
you know, I was a stock clerk, trained to watch for people like you
when I wasn't sitting around in the back room playing cards and
opening cases of pop for refreshment. At least that was the
standard behaviour, maybe that's why the store wasn't doing too
well.

How did I start talking about that..?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 38 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: blade (Digital Blade)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 18:34:16 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> Gee, thanx. Did I ever tell you how I use phone line voltage to recharge
> NiCd battaries, or how splitting your cable TV feed among five of your
> neighbors can cut your monthly cable bill by 80%, or how about the
> dozens of ways to obtain food for free, or how about how to rewire your
> electric meter so it saves you 90% off your electric bill, or how to print
> up your own bar codes and stick them on supermarket items in order to
> reduce your food shopping bill by 80%? You haven't lived until you've
> screwed the system in the ways I have.
>
>
> Thug
>

Umm, No..you didn't :>. How bout forming a new thugworld
conference..called.."Steals&Deals" or something along those lines
where these and other tips and techniques for saving money
can be discussed.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 39 of 133
Subject: Help wit IRC...
From: siva (The Destroyer)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 20:41:31 EDT
In-Reply-To: <T8aT2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Every time I get onto IRC, I get this message teling me that I have mail,
and the nmber is increasing... like from 5 to 15 to 22... problem is, my
system account shows no mail, my Mindvox account shows no new mail...
where is this number getting culled from?
How can I get to it?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 40 of 133
Subject: Re: Help wit IRC...
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 21:21:20 EDT

siva (The Destroyer) writes:

> Every time I get onto IRC, I get this message teling me that I have mail,
> and the nmber is increasing... like from 5 to 15 to 22... problem is, my
> system account shows no mail, my Mindvox account shows no new mail...
> where is this number getting culled from?
> How can I get to it?

You don't, cuz it's not your mail. It appears to be incoming mail for one
of Vox's system accounts. You notice how when you're in IRC, EVERYONE has
the same address? That's why. Once Vox gets around to giving us all our
own legit user IDs, the mail counter will show your own real mail count.

There is a way to get that stupid "[Mail: ]" thing off your status line in
IRC, but the VoxGodz have the /set command turned off, so we're stuch with it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 41 of 133
Subject: Re: Help wit IRC...
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 22:23:25 EDT

siva (The Destroyer) writes:

> Every time I get onto IRC, I get this message teling me that I have mail,
> and the nmber is increasing... like from 5 to 15 to 22... problem is, my
> system account shows no mail, my Mindvox account shows no new mail...
> where is this number getting culled from?
> How can I get to it?

Right now everyone is logged in under one account. This account
also happens to get mail. If the number goes up, people are either
busy or sleeping, and not reading mail. If the number goes down,
it means someone decided to actually be a tad responsible.

Basically you can't get to it, cause it ain't yours.

Sulam

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.

Just make sure you shave your head for the camera.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 42 of 133
Subject: Scrolling bug?
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 22:26:26 EDT

When I'm reading messages, sometimes---espicially in the middle of a long
one, like a FAQ--the message stops in the middle and the cursor shows. If
I hit return, the screen misses the message number return for next prompt,
etc. and the next message starts to scoll.

It looks like this:

begin
send <filename>
end

You replace "<filename>" with the f
Post: 2566 of 2579

I got the blinking cursor right after the letter 'f' and when I hit
enter/return it went right to 'Post:2566..."

What causes this?

voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com

voidmstr's law (tm):
bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
============================================

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 43 of 133
Subject: Logging off
From: hayden (Hugh Appet)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 22:57:07 EDT
In-Reply-To: <RyLT2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

When I try to log off of Vox, I get taken back to the
login prompt. Seems the only way to get off is to have
my comm pgm hangup the modem. I have seen a couple of
other posts to this effect. Now it happens most of the
time. Any ideas?

Hayden

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 44 of 133
Subject: Re: Logging off
From: stevek (Steve K)
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 93 23:41:15 EDT

hayden (Hugh Appet) writes:

> When I try to log off of Vox, I get taken back to the
> login prompt. Seems the only way to get off is to have
> my comm pgm hangup the modem. I have seen a couple of
> other posts to this effect. Now it happens most of the
> time. Any ideas?

yeah, use your comm program to hangup..

you log off, and get sent back to the logoff screen.. just like you were
at a terminal.. it is the same thing..

____________________________
| stevek@mindvox.phantom.com ||
| or kann@bitsy.cooper.edu ||
=============================/
[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 45 of 133
Subject: Re: actual honest to goodnes help !!!
From: wishbone (Brian Schexnayder)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 02:31:23 EDT

thug (Murdering Thug) writes:

> lyre (Lyre) writes:
>
> > elwood (eli tishberg) writes:
> >
> > > 1-If I want to dl all the new msgs so I can read 'em offline (this
> > > goes for USENET Stuff too !) is there any easy efficient way ?
> >
> > Good point!
> >
> > We need a QWK mail system here, so we can create QWK packets, download
> > them, and read them offline.
> >
> > This would also free up your telephone lines, Vox guys!
>
> I don't think that reading news/forums/mail is actually what ties up
> the lines. I know it takes me less that 30 minutes to complete all
> that. What ties up the lines is IRC. Some people stay in IRC for
> 10 to 15 hours at a time. So unless you can figure out a way to
> tunnel IRC through QWK packets, I'd say all hope is lost. The cure
> is getting more phone lines or start charging by the hour in order
> to discourage people from staying on more than, say, 2 hours a day.
>
>
>
> Thug
>

Well, first of all, if you're new to UNIX as I am, there are going to be
lots of people using lots of time here. IRC was my first stop because it
was easy to get handy with and also the interactive sessions that I,ve
had have been informative. The price is actually what attracted me here
outside of the fact of desiring to learn about Internet. If the charges
were to go by the hour, this would end up being just like any other pay
plan. People who are new to this are simply going to be on longer in
order to become aquainted with the system. Perhaps most of the people
here would be in favor of discontinuing IRC. I think that would be a
sever blow to Mindvox. There are systems that charge by the hour already
, so maybe that would be a better alternative for you if you're having
difficulty getting on here. Whatever does it for ya. I will say that I
have been exposed to a different place and time through this experience.
QWK packets as mentioned before are always a preferable way of viewing
mail for me, not because it saves so much online time, but because it
lets me read in the overhead what I'm interested in by subject. I hope
that this place will provide for all what it has provided for
me..........a truly remarkable enjoyment. :*)

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 46 of 133
Subject: Re: Help wit IRC...
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 12:11:34 EDT

sulam (James Waldrop) writes:

> siva (The Destroyer) writes:
>
> > Every time I get onto IRC, I get this message teling me that I have mail,
> > and the nmber is increasing... like from 5 to 15 to 22... problem is, my
> > system account shows no mail, my Mindvox account shows no new mail...
> > where is this number getting culled from?
> > How can I get to it?
>
> Right now everyone is logged in under one account. This account
> also happens to get mail. If the number goes up, people are either
> busy or sleeping, and not reading mail. If the number goes down,
> it means someone decided to actually be a tad responsible.
>
> Basically you can't get to it, cause it ain't yours.

that much I figured. Still wonder who's it really is since there is no
mindvox account with 11 or 12 letters, there's system with like 200+ most
of the time.

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 47 of 133
Subject: Re: Help wit IRC...
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 12:44:02 EDT

deadboy (The Dead) writes:

> sulam (James Waldrop) writes:
> >
> > Right now everyone is logged in under one account. This account
> > also happens to get mail. If the number goes up, people are either
> > busy or sleeping, and not reading mail. If the number goes down,
> > it means someone decided to actually be a tad responsible.
> >
> > Basically you can't get to it, cause it ain't yours.
>
> that much I figured. Still wonder who's it really is since there is no
> mindvox account with 11 or 12 letters, there's system with like 200+ most
> of the time.

Actually, system is something else. Right now the number is going
up because of the problem with the machine not being able to figure
out that it exists. Everytime you send mail outside of mindvox
that number should go up one (I think). However, no mail gets
routed to it that I know of besides this sort of thing. That
means it could very well have 11 or 12 letters.

Sulam

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.

Just make sure you shave your head for the camera.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 48 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: wscott (Walter Scott)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 15:01:17 EDT

voidmstr (Dennis Wilen) writes:

> When I'm reading messages, sometimes---espicially in the middle of a long
> one, like a FAQ--the message stops in the middle and the cursor shows. If
> I hit return, the screen misses the message number return for next prompt,
> etc. and the next message starts to scoll.

I have been getting the same kinds of problems... somehow the Vox thinks
that it has sent you the complete text of a message, and the next prompt,
even when it hasn't. This problem essentially makes the Vox useless for
reading long messages or for any serious text downloading. I sent
FEEDBACK about this and got an irrelevant reply about (w)riting messages
to a file (which only postpones the problem).

There seems to be some kind of basic handshaking error happening between
Vox and some terminal programs that affects any large amount of text going
over the wire without interruption. It doesn't matter if it's a listing
of an archive file, a news or mail message, or for that matter text coming
from a remote machine via telnet: if the amount of text coming over at a
time exceeds a certain amount, you lose the last part of it. If it's a
LOT of text, you lose random chunks of text at irregular intervals as well.

The only reason I don't feel MORE pissed off about this than I am, is that
I've "only" been online for six weeks, so I have a (tiny) amount of
patience left, and because the Vox is so cheap. You get what you pay for,
I guess. If I was a charter subscriber, I guess I'd be REALLY flaming by
now, though.

BTW, I'm on a Mac w/ MicroPhone and a cheapy Zoom v.32bis modem, if that
makes any difference. Also, this problem is not unique to MindVox, as
I've seen it happens on other InterNet dialups before, as well [I seem to
recall that it was a problem with some of the modems, if you hung up and
dialed back & got in on another modem, the problem went away].

Wearily,
Walt.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 49 of 133
Subject: archive ?
From: awright (Andrew)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 15:30:37 EDT

Hey there,

maybe I'm just being stupid, but how can I use ftp to get things _into_
the archives here? I ftped a few things into my home directory because I
couldn't figure out how to get them into the uploads directory in
archives. Now, I can't figure out how to get them from home to archives.

Any suggestions?

Andrew

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 50 of 133
Subject: Re: archive ?
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 15:54:03 EDT
In-Reply-To: <qDXu2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'd like to know that too. As far as I can tell, the only way to move
something from your home folder to the archives is to download it from
home and then reupload it to the Archives.

Of course, the fact that Vox hangs up on me every time I start an upload
has dampened my enthusiasm for adding to the library....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 51 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 17:03:50 EDT

wscott (Walter Scott) writes:

> I have been getting the same kinds of problems... somehow the Vox thinks
> that it has sent you the complete text of a message, and the next prompt,
> even when it hasn't. This problem essentially makes the Vox useless for
> reading long messages or for any serious text downloading. I sent
> FEEDBACK about this and got an irrelevant reply about (w)riting messages
> to a file (which only postpones the problem).

The problem is that you're using a terminal program that wants xon xoff,
which is a old protocol that is still ok for direct dialup in some cases,
most fast modems ignore it or throw it out and you'd be much better off
using rts/cts, which is what Vox and every other internet site would be
using. Xon Xoff gets thrown out everywhere except probably on the 2400
dialup lines and even there I have doubts. Whoever suggested (w)riting
gave you a solution (one of a few) that solves your problem and lets you
download long text.

> There seems to be some kind of basic handshaking error happening between
> Vox and some terminal programs that affects any large amount of text going
> over the wire without interruption. It doesn't matter if it's a listing
> of an archive file, a news or mail message, or for that matter text coming
> from a remote machine via telnet: if the amount of text coming over at a
> time exceeds a certain amount, you lose the last part of it. If it's a
> LOT of text, you lose random chunks of text at irregular intervals as well.

Read above, its called flow control and no site can fix it because it's at
your end.

> The only reason I don't feel MORE pissed off about this than I am, is that
> I've "only" been online for six weeks, so I have a (tiny) amount of
> patience left, and because the Vox is so cheap. You get what you pay for,
> I guess. If I was a charter subscriber, I guess I'd be REALLY flaming by
> now, though.

Probably, when in doubt, make a lot of noise :-)

> BTW, I'm on a Mac w/ MicroPhone and a cheapy Zoom v.32bis modem, if that
> makes any difference. Also, this problem is not unique to MindVox, as
> I've seen it happens on other InterNet dialups before, as well [I seem to
> recall that it was a problem with some of the modems, if you hung up and
> dialed back & got in on another modem, the problem went away].

Yes, to say again, stop using xon xoff and set your modem to rts/cts, any
modem made in the last 5 years supports it.

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 52 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 17:54:59 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4o2u2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Well, I already HAD disabled xon/xoff and I still get this bug.
Could it be my hardware handshaking is giving Vox the finger?

1.Modem: 14.4 Global Village PowerPort Gold
2. Comm program: Zterm
3. Settings N81
4. Terminal: Vt100 keyboard set with PC-ANSI Emulation

voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com

voidmstr's law (tm):
bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
============================================

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 53 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: n2shu (Michael GF Chin)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 19:17:16 EDT
In-Reply-To: <c34u2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I'm using a SupraFAXModem V.32bis with White Knight 11.12 on a Macintosh II,
and I'm experiencing no problems whatsoever. One question though: is your
MORE disabled, ie. do you wait until you receive the ENTIRE text before
scrolling back to read it? This is what I do.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 54 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 19:24:57 EDT
In-Reply-To: <HV8u2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

More is disabled.

Less, evidently, is enabled as well.

voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com

voidmstr's law (tm):
bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
============================================

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 55 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 19:33:17 EDT

n2shu (Michael GF Chin) writes:

> I'm using a SupraFAXModem V.32bis with White Knight 11.12 on a Macintosh II,

Michael--

White Knight's currently at 11.14. You should ftp around and find the
updaters.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 56 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: n2shu (Michael GF Chin)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 19:43:17 EDT

kieran (Aaron Dickey) writes:

> White Knight's currently at 11.14. You should ftp around and find the
> updaters.

Thanks for the info. *smile*

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 57 of 133
Subject: Re: Scrolling bug?
From: n2shu (Michael GF Chin)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 19:45:52 EDT

voidmstr (Dennis Wilen) writes:

> More is disabled.
>
> Less, evidently, is enabled as well.

Is the size of your terminal software's serial buffer set to the max
allowable?

...like I said before, wait until you receive the entire text...then
scroll back to read it. *shrug*

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 58 of 133
Subject: file names
From: hawley (Hawley Waldman)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 93 20:59:55 EDT

I FTP'd some files over to the vox that have long names which don't show
up in full when I do a dir in home. I'd like to download the files to my
home machine and or read them here on the vox but I can't access them
because of the name problem. It doesn't matter if I type the whole name
or the part of the name that is displayed when I dir I always get "file
not found".
Any ideas?
-Hawley

-----------------------------------
% I'm new here, cut me some slack %
-----------------------------------

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 59 of 133
Subject: Re: file names
From: linus (Mark Mixson)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 02:17:00 EDT
In-Reply-To: <kmcV2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I had the same problem with losing text. I "solved" it by enabling the
"More" option, which broke up the text into reasonably small portions.
Not the way I would prefer it to work, but at least I can read
everything.

Linus

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 60 of 133
Subject: Re: file names
From: thug (Murdering Thug)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 11:10:42 EDT

hawley (Hawley Waldman) writes:

> I FTP'd some files over to the vox that have long names which don't show
> up in full when I do a dir in home. I'd like to download the files to my
> home machine and or read them here on the vox but I can't access them
> because of the name problem. It doesn't matter if I type the whole name
> or the part of the name that is displayed when I dir I always get "file
> not found".
> Any ideas?
> -Hawley
>

When ftp'ing down files with long names, you can give ftp a short local
name to save the file as. For example:

ftp> get Super-Elite-Terminal-Program.v1.21.6a.zip super121.zip

The file will be saved in your home directory as super121.zip, instead of
the long name that the remote site uses. Hope that helps.

Thug

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 61 of 133
Subject: ftp question
From: hayden (Hugh Appet)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 18:20:25 EDT
In-Reply-To: <J1Fw2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I have managed both to telnet and to FTP successfully.
However, some systems tell me to read the readme file.
Can I do this while logged in or do I have to FTP it to
Vox before I can read it? Couldn't find a command in FTP
for typing a file onscreen. Also, is there a command to
do a DIR w/pause or must I just capture a directory at an
FTP site or scroll back my buffer to read it at less than
light speed?

Hayden

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 62 of 133
Subject: Re: ftp question
From: stevek (Steve K)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 18:27:37 EDT

hayden (Hugh Appet) writes:

> However, some systems tell me to read the readme file.
> Can I do this while logged in or do I have to FTP it to
> Vox before I can read it? Couldn't find a command in FTP

do a "get <filename> -", that will put it on your screen

> for typing a file onscreen. Also, is there a command to
> do a DIR w/pause or must I just capture a directory at an
> FTP site or scroll back my buffer to read it at less than
> light speed?

as far as I know, scrollback is the only way to go..

____________________________
| stevek@mindvox.phantom.com ||
| or kann@bitsy.cooper.edu ||
=============================/

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 63 of 133
Subject: more help
From: elwood (eli tishberg)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 18:58:57 EDT

ok here's two questions for you.

1- What are the 2400 baud access numbers for mindvox ?

2- What is the deal with the USENET echoes ? It seems there
is nothing new on them which I assume is because we are
not hooked up to the echoes. Why is that? I know that we were
a week or so ago but aren't now.
WHATS THE DEAL ?
thanx mucho

oh wait one more quick one what is the address for Mindvox?
I mean the number address thing (I;m not sure what it is called)

woodie

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 64 of 133
Subject: Re: more help
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 19:03:30 EDT
In-Reply-To: <yo2w2B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

1. Here is the command and number address I use: telnet 198.67.3.2

2. Can anyone tell me if outgoing e-mail that was spooled until this am
has been sent/delivered? I know the test letter I sent this morning got
there fine, but I wonder if the older ones were lost in the 'void' (heh).

voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com

voidmstr's law (tm):
bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
============================================

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 65 of 133
Subject: Re: more help
From: georget (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 19:07:17 EDT

elwood (eli tishberg) writes:

> ok here's two questions for you.
>
> 1- What are the 2400 baud access numbers for mindvox ?

212-989-4141

>
> 2- What is the deal with the USENET echoes ? It seems there
> is nothing new on them which I assume is because we are
> not hooked up to the echoes. Why is that? I know that we were
> a week or so ago but aren't now.
> WHATS THE DEAL ?

I asked that in feedback this morning, usenet is one of the last things
still messed up and supposed to be back very soon.

>
> oh wait one more quick one what is the address for Mindvox?
> I mean the number address thing (I;m not sure what it is called)

198.67.3.2

-GT

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 66 of 133
Subject: Re: ftp question
From: hayden (Hugh Appet)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 19:10:49 EDT
In-Reply-To: <q9Zw2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Thanks, Steve

Hayden

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 67 of 133
Subject: Re: more help
From: elwood (eli tishberg)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 20:47:33 EDT
In-Reply-To: <u32w2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

thanks for the peompt reply.
woodsterr

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 68 of 133
Subject: IRC Etiquette
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 21:02:02 EDT
In-Reply-To: <yP7w2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Which is more proper?

***ACK***

or

***AARGH***

?

voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com

voidmstr's law (tm):
bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
============================================

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 69 of 133
Subject: Re: IRC Etiquette
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 22:06:12 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4D8w2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

personally, i've always preferred a good

***AAAAAHHHHHH!!!*** at the back of the throat...

of the two you specify, i think ***AARGH!*** might
more convincingly convey your intent, though...

- drow -

"whether tis nobler in the mind... oh, fuck it"
*snap* *click* *BUDDA!*

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 70 of 133
Subject: archie use
From: deckard (Mike Gwertzman)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 22:15:23 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2caX2B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Got on archie, the only question I have is how to use it? Whats the
command to find the file I need? Thanx
-d2

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 71 of 133
Subject: umcompress (or no?)
From: lobo (Chris Wolfe)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 22:28:48 EDT

OK, cool, so ftp is here. Very cool.
I got cool stuff. Cooler.
But I can't uncompress it.
Help....

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 72 of 133
Subject: Re: more help
From: billp49 (William Page)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 23:01:33 EDT

elwood (eli tishberg) writes:

> ok here's two questions for you.
>
> 1- What are the 2400 baud access numbers for mindvox ?

989-4141 but it is BUSY, had to telnet in
>
> oh wait one more quick one what is the address for Mindvox?
> I mean the number address thing (I;m not sure what it is called)
>

The IP number is 198.67.3.2

:) Bill

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 73 of 133
Subject: Re: archie use
From: soniq (David Vogt)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 93 23:14:37 EDT

deckard (Mike Gwertzman) writes:

> Got on archie, the only question I have is how to use it? Whats the
> command to find the file I need? Thanx
> -d2

From archie prompt type "find <fileneme>"

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 74 of 133
Subject: Re: umcompress (or no?)
From: deadboy (The Dead)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 00:53:47 EDT

lobo (Chris Wolfe) writes:

> OK, cool, so ftp is here. Very cool.
> I got cool stuff. Cooler.
> But I can't uncompress it.
> Help....

Get uncompress utilities for whatever machine type you are on, they're
common and either in the archives on mindvox, or you can find them through
archie or check out a big mirror like wustl.

Vox had uncompress and probably will again just not yet on the new machines.

The Dead Shall Rise

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 75 of 133
Subject: Too Many Open Files
From: soniq (David Vogt)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 14:35:20 EDT
In-Reply-To: <c5HX2B6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Help - I've been plagued by the "Too many open files" error inmy home
directory. This usually happens when I'm in the process of d/l files to
my home machine or if I'm renaming files in order to d/l. When I receive
this error I can't do anything. I'm asked to reconfigure my configure
file, etc. Does anybody know what's up? Has this happened to anyone
else? LET ME KNOW! THX-

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 76 of 133
Subject: Re: archie use
From: toxic (Toxic Avenger)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 15:46:15 EDT

soniq (David Vogt) writes:

> deckard (Mike Gwertzman) writes:
>
> > Got on archie, the only question I have is how to use it? Whats the
> > command to find the file I need? Thanx
> > -d2
>
> From archie prompt type "find <fileneme>"
>

Some newer clients prefer that you use "prog <filename>" both will work,
but the prog one searches slightly differently, and is usually faster
(then beta-software at archie.au wont let you use find anymore, that code
has been removed)

-Tox

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 77 of 133
Subject: best way to get help
From: elwood (eli tishberg)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 17:50:21 EDT

As a new user to Mindvox and the Internet I found the most helpful
reference to be The Whole Guide to Internet ( I think thats what its
called) by Ed Krol. It is the commercially released version of THE
HITCHHIKERS GUIDE files and explains ARCHIE,FTP,Telnet,WAIS WWW Gopher
MAIL etc etc.
If you are new to the INternet (and connected systems) try this book
you'll like it !!!
I found mine at the main Barnes and Noble but I'm sure other big
bookstores carry it too.

\l-wood

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 78 of 133
Subject: Corrupt mail
From: allah (Alex Metcalf)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 20:12:12 EDT
In-Reply-To: <m7sy2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Just went to pick up my mail and the 10 or so previous that I'd left on
there showed up just over an evil message that said:
THIS FOLDER MAY BE CORRUPT.
ugh.
I can't access any of the mail.
Anyone having a similar prob? Anyone know whassup?

AL X

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 79 of 133
Subject: D/l's, Wildcards
From: hayden (Hugh Appet)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 22:34:39 EDT
In-Reply-To: <2qZy2B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Two questions re the Vox.

1) What if anything can you use as a wildcard as when
deleting files in your home directory?

2) Can you (seems someone already aske this but i must
have missed the answer) D/L more than one file at a
time?

I am using Telix, BTB. Thanks

Hayden

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 80 of 133
Subject: Re: Corrupt mail
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 22:58:43 EDT

allah (Alex Metcalf) writes:

> Just went to pick up my mail and the 10 or so previous that I'd left on
> there showed up just over an evil message that said:
> THIS FOLDER MAY BE CORRUPT.
> ugh.
> I can't access any of the mail.

Listen, if you were smart, you'd realize that advertising to
the Vox that you carrying on corrupt conversations in your
mail is gonna bring a flurry of righteous bible fanatics to
your door. Now you're gonna have to be sAAvEd.

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.

Just make sure you shave your head for the camera.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 81 of 133
Subject: Re: Too Many Open Files
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 02:28:47 EDT

soniq (David Vogt) writes:

> Help - I've been plagued by the "Too many open files" error inmy home
> directory. This usually happens when I'm in the process of d/l files to
> my home machine or if I'm renaming files in order to d/l. When I receive
> this error I can't do anything. I'm asked to reconfigure my configure
> file, etc. Does anybody know what's up? Has this happened to anyone
> else? LET ME KNOW! THX-
>

try increasing the files=xx to like files=50, or just 10 or 20 more than
what it is now. I am assuming you have an ibm clone

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 82 of 133
Subject: files=xx
From: enzyme (David Pincus)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 02:32:13 EDT

that is in your config.sys file in root

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 83 of 133
Subject: Sending Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 08:38:38 EDT
In-Reply-To: <ecHZ2B6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I haven't been able to send any mail outside of MindVox for
ten days. I recieve mail but forward hasn't worked for ten
days either and neither does my sig/mailsig.
Is anyone else having these problems.
I've given up on feedback.
Please.

____________________________________________________________________
charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio
or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN
VOX:317.254.0739
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 84 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 08:43:06 EDT
In-Reply-To: <4ayZ2B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Oh! I take part of that last post back.
My sig is working now.........

____________________________________________________________________
charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio
or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN
VOX:317.254.0739
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 85 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: georget (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 13:19:32 EDT

ccps (Charles Shriner) writes:

> I haven't been able to send any mail outside of MindVox for
> ten days. I recieve mail but forward hasn't worked for ten
> days either and neither does my sig/mailsig.
> Is anyone else having these problems.

Your mailsig just came through, mail is working for me, has been for a few
days.

One thing that happens sometimes which just happened to me is that I get
"stuck" in WHO when I lose carrier or logout wrong, and then sometimes I
CAN log back in, other times it tells me that I'm already logged in!

Little problem that happens once in a while, but thought you'd like to know.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 86 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 13:42:10 EDT
In-Reply-To: <0aB12B9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

George said...Your mailsig just came through, mail is working for me, has
been for a few
days.

One thing that happens sometimes which just happened to me is that I get
"stuck" in WHO when I lose carrier or logout wrong, and then sometimes I
CAN log back in, other times it tells me that I'm already logged in!

Thanks for the help.
I'll just keep checking in till "SEND" is working again.
Peace

____________________________________________________________________
charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio
or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN
VOX:317.254.0739
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 87 of 133
Subject: Upload Upchuck
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 16:29:11 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Zcc12B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Can someone explain to me just WHAT Vox is looking for in an upload
protocol tthese days? No matter what I do, the moment I try to start an
upload into the archives, Vox hangs up/disconnects. I'm getting annoyed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey "Man, this's real beer-drinkin'
Internet: kieran@mindvox.phantom.com weather, ain't it?" Hyuk hyuk." --
some guy I met at the 7-11, 26 Mar 93
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Um, that's called morphing, isn't it?" - Al "CyberChrist" Gore at SGI

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 88 of 133
Subject: Re: Upload Upchuck
From: kurtphil (Kurt Phillips)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 16:31:27 EDT
In-Reply-To: <c4J12B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Dumb question from a Internet neophyte-- How can I get files while
Tlenetting?

My terminal has an "Alt T" command but it just sends "FTP xxx.yyy.zz"
Vox tells me to hit "Alt ]" and toggle to binary but Alt ] does nothing on
my end. Grumble.

Related Q-- When I try to FTP here, my terminal hangs up after a
"username:" prompt.

Unfortuneately, there are very few people on my end to ask.

Thanks for any/all help.

K.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 89 of 133
Subject: Re: Too Many Open Files
From: stevek (Steve K)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 17:08:48 EDT

enzyme (David Pincus) writes:

> soniq (David Vogt) writes:
>
> > Help - I've been plagued by the "Too many open files" error inmy home
> > directory. This usually happens when I'm in the process of d/l files to
> > my home machine or if I'm renaming files in order to d/l. When I receive
> > this error I can't do anything. I'm asked to reconfigure my configure
> > file, etc. Does anybody know what's up? Has this happened to anyone
> > else? LET ME KNOW! THX-
> >
>
> try increasing the files=xx to like files=50, or just 10 or 20 more than
> what it is now. I am assuming you have an ibm clone

Hey Dave.. He was getting that message from VOX, not his home PC..

* smack! *

____________________________
| stevek@mindvox.phantom.com ||
| or kann@bitsy.cooper.edu ||
=============================/

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 90 of 133
Subject: Re: Upload Upchuck
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 17:05:54 EDT

kurtphil (Kurt Phillips) writes:

>
> Dumb question from a Internet neophyte-- How can I get files while
> Tlenetting?
>
> My terminal has an "Alt T" command but it just sends "FTP xxx.yyy.zz"
> Vox tells me to hit "Alt ]" and toggle to binary but Alt ] does nothing on
> my end. Grumble.
>
hit ctrl-]... this should give you a telnet> prompt or
something similar. then type 'toggle bin, hit return twice,
and set up your terminal program to receive a file.

in the world understood by drow, this is how it's supposed
to work. if you can get it to, jump up and down three times,
wave a stalk of celery over your computer in a clockwise
direction for three minutes to freeze the quantum state of
things, then come tell us. i still can't get it to work.
>
> Related Q-- When I try to FTP here, my terminal hangs up after a
> "username:" prompt.
>
yeah - you can't FTP here. if you need to move something from
your home directory to another account, FTP from here to there.
if you need to move something from the archives, i don't think
there's anything in place yet, but i haven't looked today, so...
>

- drow -

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 91 of 133
Subject: Re: Too Many Open Files
From: carlos (Carlos Dominguez)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 17:27:26 EDT

enzyme (David Pincus) writes:

> try increasing the files=xx to like files=50, or just 10 or 20 more than
> what it is now. I am assuming you have an ibm clone

..dude, thats an OS problem on the mindvox side.. I get it too, and it
means HANGUP and RECONNECT.. sheesh

___ ___ __ . ___ __ // Carlos Dominguez - GO HELLDIVER GO !
/ /__/ /_ ) / / / /_ // | carlos@carlos.jpr.com carlos@phantom.com
(__ ( / / \ (__ (__/ __/ .. | carlos@dorsai.dorsai.org FIDONET 1:278/706

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 92 of 133
Subject: Mail Spool?
From: bird (Madamme Butterfly)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 18:06:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Fsm12B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I've been getting all my mail, and for two days, it's all been going out,
but...
I have mail from last week sitting (hopefully) on a spool somewhere,
up above, that I sent. Does anyone know when it's leaving vox?

thanx
-Bird

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 93 of 133
Subject: Re: Mail Spool?
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 18:32:55 EDT

bird (Madamme Butterfly) writes:

> I've been getting all my mail, and for two days, it's all been going out,
> but...
> I have mail from last week sitting (hopefully) on a spool somewhere,
> up above, that I sent. Does anyone know when it's leaving vox?
>
> thanx
> -Bird
>

yeah....what mme. sez, i say too.

C'est tout!

voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com

voidmstr's law (tm):
bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
============================================

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 94 of 133
Subject: Re: Mail Spool?
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 93 19:02:24 EDT

bird (Madamme Butterfly) writes:

> I've been getting all my mail, and for two days, it's all been going out,
> but...
> I have mail from last week sitting (hopefully) on a spool somewhere,
> up above, that I sent. Does anyone know when it's leaving vox?

When it's leaving the Vox is up in the air. You are right, though,
some people, namely those that tried to send mail when it wasn't
working, got it stuck in a spool where it is sitting collecting dust.
They are aware of the problem, so hopefully it'll all go out
soon.

I'm not the voice of the vox, though, so treat this as a helpful hint.

sulam

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.

Just make sure you shave your head for the camera.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 95 of 133
Subject: Screen Text Color
From: blade (Digital Blade)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 09:50:43 EDT
In-Reply-To: <P7q12B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Umm This isn't exactly a complaint. But, I notice that my screen text
color is forced to white instead of the bright white on blue of my comm
program's default. I find reading the screen difficult this way. Is there
anyway I can get my text to stay the way I set it in my comm program?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 96 of 133
Subject: Re: Upload Upchuck
From: shaggy (colin maroney)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 16:46:25 EDT

drow (Doug Rau) writes:

> kurtphil (Kurt Phillips) writes:
>
> >
> > Dumb question from a Internet neophyte-- How can I get files while
> > Tlenetting?
> >
> > My terminal has an "Alt T" command but it just sends "FTP xxx.yyy.zz"
> > Vox tells me to hit "Alt ]" and toggle to binary but Alt ] does nothing on
> > my end. Grumble.
> >
> hit ctrl-]... this should give you a telnet> prompt or
> something similar. then type 'toggle bin, hit return twice,
> and set up your terminal program to receive a file.

i think you actually have to hit ctrl (or alt)-[ TWICE to get back into
telnet.
0--(--< sHaG >--)--o

the other day i shot an elephant in my pajamas
how he got in there i'll never know.
-Marx (Groucho, not Karl)

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 97 of 133
Subject: undocumented
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 08:06:22 EDT

So... what are the new undocumented commands?

I know about SCAN instead of NEW... what else?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 98 of 133
Subject: Re: undocumented
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 15:38:54 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> So... what are the new undocumented commands?
>
> I know about SCAN instead of NEW... what else?
>
>

That's not new, it's been here since last year and from what I know its
leaving completely in the near future and being replaced with something
else. If you look at its commands you'll see its missing about half the
things you can do from NEWscan.

Some useful ones:

shit, fuck, ls, awk, lod, smoke, !sh

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 99 of 133
Subject: editor--
From: kurtphil (Kurt Phillips)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 19:26:07 EDT
In-Reply-To: <J4742B9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I had a lot of trouble editing a msg in Erotica a minute ago. The
cursor jumped to the top of the screen, and wouldn't arrow down past the
half way point. Also, the second page of the post was printed right over
the first page w/o clearing the screen first.

messy.

K.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 100 of 133
Subject: Re: editor--
From: gearhead (Sean Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 19:36:55 EDT
In-Reply-To: <9LH52B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeah, PICO's been geeking out like that ever since the move. It's not
you. It's just one of those messy piles the Vox folkss haven't gotten
around to cleaning up yet. If you can stand typing through the trash
(and after Double Character Days can't we all?) it will post correctly.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 101 of 133
Subject: Re: editor--
From: alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 93 21:57:56 EDT

gearhead (Sean Hamilton) writes:

> Yeah, PICO's been geeking out like that ever since the move. It's not
> you. It's just one of those messy piles the Vox folkss haven't gotten
> around to cleaning up yet. If you can stand typing through the trash
> (and after Double Character Days can't we all?) it will post correctly.
>

It's not pico, works fine. If you are in ANSI change it to vt100, on the
Sun its identical except ANSI termcaps will mess up pc's sometimes. It
happened to me when the change first happened, I reset the termcap, no
prboelms.

This solve is actually from Thug, so all ohh ahh's to his Thugness.

$%$%$%$%$%$%$%
($) Ali Baba ($)
%$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 102 of 133
Subject: Re: editor--
From: soniq (David Vogt)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 93 02:33:03 EDT

kurtphil (Kurt Phillips) writes:

>
> I had a lot of trouble editing a msg in Erotica a minute ago. The
> cursor jumped to the top of the screen, and wouldn't arrow down past the
> half way point. Also, the second page of the post was printed right over
> the first page w/o clearing the screen first.
>
> messy.>
> K.
>

Type with both hands.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 103 of 133
Subject: Re: editor--
From: gearhead (Sean Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 22:40:41 EDT

I am using a PC. Qmodem software. I changed my terminal setting on Vox
from ansi to vt100 and PICO is stilling fuccking up like its been in
my medicine cabinet tking one pill out of every bottle. Next Page
won't work.Del line won't work.

At least I know I'm not the only person having this problem. But it's
getting really annoying since it makes it completely impossible to
selectively qoute from previous posts. (See above.)

AAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUGGGGHHHHHHHH!!@!!!!!@!!!!alibaba (Nick Mordanzo)
writes:

> gearhead (Sean Hamilton) writes:
>
> > Yeah, PICO's been geeking out like that ever since the move. It's not
> > you. It's just one of those messy piles the Vox folkss haven't gotten
> > around to cleaning up yet. If you can stand typing through the trash
> > (and after Double Character Days can't we all?) it will post correctly.
> >
>
> It's not pico, works fine. If you are in ANSI change it to vt100, on the
> Sun its identical except ANSI termcaps will mess up pc's sometimes. It
> happened to me when the change first happened, I reset the termcap, no
> prboelms.
>
> This solve is actually from Thug, so all ohh ahh's to his Thugness.
>
>
>
> $%$%$%$%$%$%$%
> ($) Ali Baba ($)
> %$%$%$%$%$%$%$

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 104 of 133
Subject: Re: editor--
From: gearhead (Sean Hamilton)
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 93 22:48:13 EDT
In-Reply-To: <iyF92B9w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Now explain to me why Pico just posted my follow up message above the
message I was quoting?

And explain to me why every command except Del line and Next Pg seem to
work just fine?

I apologize, ali. This is not directed at you. I'm just venting my
frustration at the fucked up state of this editor.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 105 of 133
Subject: Re: editor--
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 01:43:21 EDT

gearhead (Sean Hamilton) writes:

> I am using a PC. Qmodem software. I changed my terminal setting on Vox
> from ansi to vt100 and PICO is stilling fuccking up like its been in
> my medicine cabinet tking one pill out of every bottle. Next Page
> won't work.Del line won't work.

You learned something. Qmodem's VT emulation sux.

Most emulators have horrible VT emulation.

Telemate 4.0 works acceptably for me here. Try it.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 106 of 133
Subject: Re: editor--
From: gearhead (Sean Hamilton)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 02:55:04 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

>
> You learned something. Qmodem's VT emulation sux.
>
> Most emulators have horrible VT emulation.
>
> Telemate 4.0 works acceptably for me here. Try it.
>

My first impulse was to bitch and moan about shitty, evil MindVox...
but I took a deep breath and dugout another telecomm program (Bitcom,
would you believe?) and lo and behold everything's working just fine
thank you.

Probably try to get my hands on that Telemate 4.0 anyway. Thanx for the
suggestion.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 107 of 133
Subject: Sending Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 10:06:54 EDT

Is anybody else unable to send mail to people outside of MindVox?
Does anyone know when this will be fixed? thanks

____________________________________________________________________
charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio
or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN
VOX:317.254.0739
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 108 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: chemist (The Chemist)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 17:27:13 EDT

ccps (Charles Shriner) writes:

> Is anybody else unable to send mail to people outside of MindVox?
> Does anyone know when this will be fixed? thanks
>

It is, it was only down for about 2 days nearly a week ago. Everythings
been working ok for a while. What're you trying to do?

-tC

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 109 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 18:03:46 EDT

chemist (The Chemist) writes:

> It is, it was only down for about 2 days nearly a week ago. Everythings
> been working ok for a while. What're you trying to do?

FWIW, it appears that an email I sent to 3j last night didn't even reach
her VoxBox. Maybe there's still a bug or two floating about...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey
Internet: kieran@phantom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1984: It's morning in America.
1993: It's midnight. Do you know where your children are?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 110 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 00:32:29 EDT
In-Reply-To: <34V02B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

> Is anybody else unable to send mail to people outside of MindVox?
> Does anyone know when this will be fixed? thanks
>
---It is, it was only down for about 2 days nearly a week ago.
---Everythings
been working ok for a while. What're you trying to do?

Well, first I type "mail", then I type "send", then I type
in%"abcd@efgh.fgrt, then I compose a letter then I type ^x,Y and s.
and then the letter goes into vapor-land! no-one seems to believe me!

____________________________________________________________________
charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio
or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN
VOX:317.254.0739
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 111 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 00:38:00 EDT
In-Reply-To: <usFa3B1w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

ok so I forgot to close the address with "

____________________________________________________________________
charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio
or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN
VOX:317.254.0739
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 112 of 133
Subject: Re: Sending Mail
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 14:34:03 EST

ccps (Charles Shriner) writes:
> > Is anybody else unable to send mail to people outside of MindVox?
> > Does anyone know when this will be fixed? thanks
> >
> ---It is, it was only down for about 2 days nearly a week ago.
> ---Everythings
> been working ok for a while. What're you trying to do?
>
> Well, first I type "mail", then I type "send", then I type
> in%"abcd@efgh.fgrt, then I compose a letter then I type ^x,Y and s.
> and then the letter goes into vapor-land! no-one seems to believe me!
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> charles___shriner@butler.edu Composition & Sound Design Studio
> or__ccps@mindvox.phantom.com Indpls., IN
> VOX:317.254.0739
> FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff
> ____________________________________________________________________
>

Hm...isn't the "in%" at the beginning only for VMS systems?

(Sorry I quoted the whole post, but the good editors are busted.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey
Internet: kieran@phantom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1984: It's morning in America.
1993: It's midnight. Do you know where your children are?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 113 of 133
Subject: I've got two big questions...
From: molbloo (Alissa Bader)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 14:41:45 EST
In-Reply-To: <22Fa3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Okay, firstly, how do you follow a message? I mean, not just type text
after something, but type text before and between something? And how do
you make a sig file?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 114 of 133
Subject: Re: I've got two big questions...
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 15:24:58 EST

molbloo (Alissa Bader) writes:

> Okay, firstly, how do you follow a message? I mean, not just type text
> after something, but type text before and between something? And how do

like this? it's easy if you're using the visual editor,
use the insert and edit commands in the line editor
to insert lines, etc.. i guess this is what you mean?

> you make a sig file?

[Main Menu]: home [Home]: sig follow directions..
essentially, you create a file in your directory
named sig or mailsig (email sig)..

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 115 of 133
Subject: Re: I've got two big questions...
From: deckard (Mike Gwertzman)
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 93 21:44:35 EST
In-Reply-To: <B10a3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

I was using the visual editor, and it wouldn't let me write messages. I
was going to write a message complaining about it here, but of course, it
wasn't working. So I switched to line, and now it works. L ife is
strange.

=======================================================================
Deckard@phantom.com ][ "I don't want to shout it out, I don't want my
Mike Gwertzman ][ hair to fall out, I don't want to be filled
========================][ with doubt, I don't want to be a good boy
][ scout, I don't want to have to learn to count,
][ no I don't want to grow up."
][ - Tom Waits, "I don't want to grow up"

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 116 of 133
Subject: Re: I've got two big questions...
From: stevek (Steve K)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 02:18:19 EDT

molbloo (Alissa Bader) writes:

> Okay, firstly, how do you follow a message? I mean, not just type text
> after something, but type text before and between something? And how do
> you make a sig file?

when you type follow, it quotes the entire message.. It will put you in
youeditor, where you can insert your text anywhere you want.. if you are
set to use the line editor, try using pico or Jove (pico is much simpler),
but make sure you have your term set to vt-100 or 102, or at least set
correctly.

____________________________
| stevek@mindvox.phantom.com ||
| or kann@bitsy.cooper.edu ||
=============================/

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 117 of 133
Subject: downloading forums
From: awright (neuron)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 14:36:12 EDT

Howdy,

I remember someone mentioning that they had downloaded all of the
posts in a forum in one block. Could that person (or anyone else) tell me
how to do such a thing?

Thanks,
Andrew

-------------------------------------------------------------------
93asw@williams.edu awright@phantom.com

Advertising is the pornography of capitalism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 118 of 133
Subject: Receiving Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 21:06:47 EDT

For the first time in two-and-a-half weeks I can successfully
"send" mail. The bad news is I'm not getting any of the mail
that's being sent to me at mindvox.
Is anyone else having this problem?

____________________________________________________________________
charles shriner Music Composition
ccps@mindvox.phantom.com &
VOX:317.254.0739 Sound Design
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff Indpls., IN
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 119 of 133
Subject: Re: Receiving Mail
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 21:26:43 EDT

ccps (Charles Shriner) writes:

> For the first time in two-and-a-half weeks I can successfully
> "send" mail. The bad news is I'm not getting any of the mail
> that's being sent to me at mindvox.
> Is anyone else having this problem?

Well, I haven't gotten any mail from the FutureCulture list since just
before the system went down earlier this week, so I guess there must be a
problem with incoming mail.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey
Internet: kieran@phantom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1984: It's morning in America.
1993: It's midnight. Do you know where your children are?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 120 of 133
Subject: Re: Receiving Mail
From: drow (Doug Rau)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 22:44:17 EDT

ccps (Charles Shriner) writes:

> For the first time in two-and-a-half weeks I can successfully
> "send" mail. The bad news is I'm not getting any of the mail
> that's being sent to me at mindvox.
> Is anyone else having this problem?

go read post #1437 on the Vox forum about this...

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 121 of 133
Subject: Re: Receiving Mail
From: kurtphil (Kurt Phillips)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 23:17:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <igPH3B4w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

1. I'm using Telemate 4.00 and it works fine WHEN Vox works fine.
I've had sporadic trouble w/ the editor, but not lately.

2. I tried to send mail a week ago and it never arrived. I will try
again tonight.

K.
3. I think I will write a sig someday, at a more creative time.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 122 of 133
Subject: Re: Receiving Mail
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 93 10:02:34 EDT

drow (Doug Rau) writes:

> ccps (Charles Shriner) writes:
>
> > For the first time in two-and-a-half weeks I can successfully
> > "send" mail. The bad news is I'm not getting any of the mail
> > that's being sent to me at mindvox.
> > Is anyone else having this problem?
>
> go read post #1437 on the Vox forum about this...

Doug,
Thanks.........now I understand.

____________________________________________________________________
charles shriner Music Composition
ccps@mindvox.phantom.com &
VOX:317.254.0739 Sound Design
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff Indpls., IN
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 123 of 133
Subject: usenet posting
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 04:50:02 EDT

I've twice tried to post to a newsgroup today, and neither time did my
posting get into the group.

What am I (or what is mindvox) doing wrong?
Thanks.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 124 of 133
Subject: Re: usenet posting
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 08:37:46 EDT

lyre (Lyre) writes:

> I've twice tried to post to a newsgroup today, and neither time did my
> posting get into the group.
>
> What am I (or what is mindvox) doing wrong?

I just looked at the usenet stuff here for the first time. It looks like
the Vox is about 2 days behind in propogation, so it may be that your
message is spooled somewhere out in never-never land, only to find its
way back to your door in a couple days. We'll see.

Sulam

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.

Just make sure you shave your head for the camera.

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 125 of 133
Subject: Re: usenet posting
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 16:23:09 EDT

sulam (James Waldrop) writes:

> lyre (Lyre) writes:
>
> > I've twice tried to post to a newsgroup today, and neither time did my
> > posting get into the group.
> >
> > What am I (or what is mindvox) doing wrong?
>
> I just looked at the usenet stuff here for the first time. It looks like
> the Vox is about 2 days behind in propogation, so it may be that your
> message is spooled somewhere out in never-never land, only to find its
> way back to your door in a couple days. We'll see.
>
> Sulam

I haven't been seeing my Usenet posts either. I just checked and still
haven't seen my posts from 4-24.......mayby tomorrow.

____________________________________________________________________
charles shriner Music Composition
ccps@mindvox.phantom.com &
VOX:317.254.0739 Sound Design
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff Indpls., IN
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 126 of 133
Subject: Re: usenet posting
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 17:37:08 EDT

> > lyre (Lyre) writes:
> > > I've twice tried to post to a newsgroup today, and neither time did my
> > > posting get into the group.
> > > What am I (or what is mindvox) doing wrong?
> >
> >Sulam writes
> > I just looked at the usenet stuff here for the first time. It looks like
> > the Vox is about 2 days behind in propogation, so it may be that your
> > message is spooled somewhere out in never-never land, only to find its
> > way back to your door in a couple days. We'll see.
> >
> > ccps writes
> I haven't been seeing my Usenet posts either. I just checked and still
> haven't seen my posts from 4-24.......mayby tomorrow.
>
well not only are my Usenet posts not showing up but "follow" won't
allow me to send outside of Mindvox

____________________________________________________________________
charles shriner Music Composition
ccps@mindvox.phantom.com &
VOX:317.254.0739 Sound Design
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff Indpls., IN
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 127 of 133
Subject: Re: usenet posting
From: lyre (Lyre)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 93 21:42:08 EDT

sulam (James Waldrop) writes:

> lyre (Lyre) writes:
> > I've twice tried to post to a newsgroup today, and neither time did my
> > posting get into the group.
> I just looked at the usenet stuff here for the first time. It looks like
> the Vox is about 2 days behind in propogation, so it may be that your
> message is spooled somewhere out in never-never land, only to find its
> way back to your door in a couple days. We'll see.

So you're saying that it wouldn't appear locally immediately?

I had thought it would at least appear locally, then eventually get out to
the net... what happens? It goes out and then doesn't come back until the
feed comes in?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 128 of 133
Subject: Re: usenet posting
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 00:31:36 EDT
In-Reply-To: <Lk1k3B6w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

The Usenet groups are a bit more than two days behind, according to my
tests. Some of them are WAY out of alignment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey
Internet: kieran@phantom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1984: It's morning in America.
1993: It's midnight. Do you know where your children are?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 129 of 133
Subject: Follow Command
From: ccps (Charles Shriner)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 10:08:42 EDT

When attempting to use the "follow" command to someone other than the original
sender I get this response:abcd@efg.hif and >No valid newsgroups.<
needless to say the message isn't "followed".

____________________________________________________________________
charles shriner Music Composition
ccps@mindvox.phantom.com &
VOX:317.254.0739 Sound Design
FAX:317.283.9930 ATT Woodruff Indpls., IN
____________________________________________________________________

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 130 of 133
Subject: Just covering my eyes
From: kieran (Aaron Dickey)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 16:55:27 EDT

::knock, knock:: Um, VoxGodz....a couple things:

1) Still waiting on responses to two FEEDBACK messages from several days
ago. Has the "proper" place to ask changed yet again?

2) I'm no longer allowed to delete my mail, for reasons unknown. As such,
I certainly hope that "excess storage penalty" Patrick spoke of earlier
won't be implemented anytime soon.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aaron Dickey
Internet: kieran@phantom.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1984: It's morning in America.
1993: It's midnight. Do you know where your children are?

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 131 of 133
Subject: I Wanna Upload
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 22:37:00 EDT

I want to send pkk some gifs. I have uuencoded the stuff here on my home Mac,
but when I try to upload to home I get:

C
### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: Cancelled

< UNSUCCESSFUL TRANSFER >

Since I am telnetting, I did remember to toggle bin. BTW, Z-modem
doesn't work either. What does NAK mean? What to do?

Or--can some patient soul tell me how to get these files from
my home dir on netcom.com into the elm or pine mailer?

Some of you may have seen the results of my earlier attempts to
get the voidmstr.gif into uploads---a 0K file.

I wanna share and Vox won't let me.

/me wipes away a tear and sobs

---void
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
voidmstr's law (tm):

bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 132 of 133
Subject: Re: I Wanna Upload
From: paulk (Paul Kerrios)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 00:33:54 EDT

voidmstr (Dennis Wilen) writes:

> I want to send pkk some gifs. I have uuencoded the stuff here on my home Mac
> but when I try to upload to home I get:
>
> C
> ### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
> ### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
> ### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
> ### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: NAK on sector
> ### Send (Y) voidmstr@mindvox.GIF.mu: Cancelled
>
> < UNSUCCESSFUL TRANSFER >
>
> Since I am telnetting, I did remember to toggle bin. BTW, Z-modem
> doesn't work either. What does NAK mean? What to do?

NAK is negative acknowledge, one problem is that you are going from a
firewalled system (netcom) to another firewalled system (mindvox) but you
land on the mindvox machine anyway so its not such a delay here. Why don't
you just use ftp?

You type: ftp netcom.com

and login to your accounts and "get" your gif from your directory.

> Or--can some patient soul tell me how to get these files from
> my home dir on netcom.com into the elm or pine mailer?

Sure, it's easy.

elm 'Title of File' voidmstr@mindvox.phantom.com < gif.filename

will do it.

> I wanna share and Vox won't let me.
>
> /me wipes away a tear and sobs

Too much IRC is bad for you !

//=======================================\\
Paul Kerrios /=/ Society has made me what I am today. \=\
\=\ Ok so maybe I just watch too much TV! /=/
\\=======paulk@mindvox.phantom.com=======//

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 133 of 133
Subject: Re: I Wanna Upload
From: voidmstr (Dennis Wilen)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 00:48:32 EDT
In-Reply-To: <879o3B2w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Thanx, paulk. drow showed me how to ftp to netcom from mindvox and I
got the gifs into my home directory here.

After that, it was easy. At vox's "Mail" prompt, one just types "load"
and there are prompts for the recipient and the file name.

I tried to see if I could also mail to "Uploads" but the mailer told
me there was no such user.

I'd still have a bunch of kewl warez for Archives/Computers/Mac
that I'd like to share, so any other thoughts on how to do this would
be appreciated.

I mean Curly of the 3 Stooges going "woo woo woo" is a System
Beep that can't be beat!

---void
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
voidmstr's law (tm):

bandwidth expands to fit the waste available
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

[P]ost, [L]ist, [1-133] [Q]uit:

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[ Area: MindVox / Forum: Help ]

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Post: 1 of 6
Subject: eek
From: sulam (James Waldrop)
Date: Fri, 09 Apr 93 19:35:09 EDT

Eek, I almost missed Hardware-Hacking!! And I thought Music
was the last board!!!

What a faux pas that would have been!

Sulam

The sensation that everything bad happening in the world right now is your
fault is a healthy one. Everyone feels a little down now and then, and to
emigrate to somewhere in the Himalayas, wear orange robes for 40 years, and
then come back and torch yourself in front of an old Packard sedan is a
perfectly natural response to the pressures of the reductionist media elite.

Just make sure you shave your head for the cameras.

[ Area: Technology / Forum: Hardware-Hacking ]

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Post: 2 of 6
Subject: Hmm...
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 17:56:20 EDT
In-Reply-To: <aDJR2B11w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

Yeah, I almost posted here very first but then, decided someone was not
loggin' on to do it... so I aborted the message, thus I claim second.

Okay, one of my projects that I weas planning on doing soon is a LED Based
'scope... yes, the resolution would be absolutely horrid, but that's not
my concern right now...

I actually, no reference, wondering if anyone's done anything like this
before. Originally, it was an article in the August 1979 Popular
Electronics (recent, eh?) pages 78-9... the scope there is 7 by 5 LEDs,
I'm planning 10x10 or maybe 20x20... (lotsa little lights)

So, anyways, I was wondering if anyones every messed with this and if so,
gimme tips.

(or maybe Hardware-hacking was like picking locks...)

/* nihilis@phantom.com (*) Joel Boutros (*) ad691@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu */
/* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Brush my teeth, they're mighty sensitive, Worship Satan, Brush my teeth,*/
/* Brush my teeth, they're mighty sensitive, since 1966, they're mighty */
/* sensitive. -- Ministry, "Corrosion" from Psalm 69 */

[ Area: Technology / Forum: Hardware-Hacking ]

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Post: 3 of 6
Subject: Re: Hmm...
From: carl (Henry Ott)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 93 18:49:14 EDT
In-Reply-To: <LgTy2B3w165w@mindvox.phantom.com>

LED scope, hmmmm.
Yea, I built one of them about 15 years ago, so the time frame is
about right. I think it used a LM3914 and around a 100 LEDS.
Resolution was horrid, but it came in handy for visualizing waveforms.
Worked well at audio freqs, but not much higher.
Pretty simple circuit, but the major pain was soldering all those LEDs.
A double sided PC board would have made it easier but you can still do it
by hand. I'll look to see if there are any outfits who still sell kits for
the silly things. I might even have my old one in one of my museum boxes.

Let me know if you need any specific details.

-carl-

[ Area: Technology / Forum: Hardware-Hacking ]

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Post: 4 of 6
Subject: Re: Hmm...
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 93 18:26:45 EDT

carl (Henry Ott) writes:

> LED scope, hmmmm.
> Yea, I built one of them about 15 years ago, so the time frame is
> about right. I think it used a LM3914 and around a 100 LEDS.

Yes, that's the one... (hmm! Lightning!), also featured in Radio Shack's
Electronic book, a yellow thing.

> Resolution was horrid, but it came in handy for visualizing waveforms.
> Worked well at audio freqs, but not much higher.

That's about what I'll be using it for ifd I make it...

> A double sided PC board would have made it easier but you can still do it
> by hand. I'll look to see if there are any outfits who still sell kits for
> the silly things. I might even have my old one in one of my museum boxes.

I''ll pay for shipping if you feel to get rid of it... (ehe)

/* nihilis@phantom.com (*) Joel Boutros (*) ad691@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu */
/* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Brush my teeth, they're mighty sensitive, Worship Satan, Brush my teeth,*/
/* Brush my teeth, they're mighty sensitive, since 1966, they're mighty */
/* sensitive. -- Ministry, "Corrosion" from Psalm 69 */

[ Area: Technology / Forum: Hardware-Hacking ]

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Post: 5 of 6
Subject: Re: Hmm...
From: carl (Henry Ott)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 19:43:23 EDT

regarding LED scopes and other stuff

nihilis (Joel Boutros) writes:

... stuff deleted
>
> > A double sided PC board would have made it easier but you can still do it
> > by hand. I'll look to see if there are any outfits who still sell kits for
> > the silly things. I might even have my old one in one of my museum boxes.
>
> I'll pay for shipping if you feel to get rid of it... (ehe)
>
>

Sorry for the delayed post, VOX was down for a couple of days,
and then I had to leave for the Dayton HamVention (a story in itself).
While I was there I picked up a Tektronix 222 portable DSO. This
is what you really want to use, but I don't think you would like the price.

But back to the story so far.
You don't want my old LEDscope.
I just dug it out of one of my old parts bins, and it looks awful. I
must of just been learning the art when I built it, and it's a real piece of
junk.
I'm still looking for a catalog that has a kit listed, but no luck
so far. The problem is soldering up all those LEDs without a pc board. A
much nicer solution and not much more complicated is to put a cheap ADC on
your computer. Better resolution, and you can save the waveforms. If you
have a laptop you can run it through the parallel port and have a portable
version.

I don't know what your hardware setup is, maybe you need something
standalone?
Either way I'm sure something can be worked out.

-carl-

PS. Anybody else out there cutting there own PC boards?

[ Area: Technology / Forum: Hardware-Hacking ]

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Post: 6 of 6
Subject: Re: Hmm...
From: nihilis (Joel Boutros)
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 16:38:16 EDT

carl (Henry Ott) writes:

> Sorry for the delayed post, VOX was down for a couple of days,
> and then I had to leave for the Dayton HamVention (a story in itself).
> While I was there I picked up a Tektronix 222 portable DSO. This
> is what you really want to use, but I don't think you would like the price.

Welp, yeah, I'm cash sort and how was the Convention? (hehe)
>
> I'm still looking for a catalog that has a kit listed, but no luck
> so far. The problem is soldering up all those LEDs without a pc board. A
> much nicer solution and not much more complicated is to put a cheap ADC on
> your computer. Better resolution, and you can save the waveforms. If you
> have a laptop you can run it through the parallel port and have a portable
> version.

Have a SoundBlaster Pro, am thrilled to death with it, but I got sick of
loading v386 whenever I wanted to watch something pretty on the screen.
I'm just basically looking for somehting that flashes losts and that I can
see the innerds of without voiding a warranty somewhere along the way. The
closests comparison I can think of is the beginning of Pump Up The Volume
when Mark Hunter is starting right at the start and he's got his deck with
Peak and Volume and such, and there's a little tiny scope there, picturing
the waveform as best possible to Everybody Knows. Catch that?

> I don't know what your hardware setup is, maybe you need something
> standalone?
> Either way I'm sure something can be worked out.

Probably... thanks! (next thread ayone? 6 posts is fun but... comeon,
they GOTTA get boring after a while!)

/* nihilis@phantom.com (*) Joel Boutros (*) ad691@freenet.hsc.colorado.edu */
/* ----------------------------------------------------------------------- */
/* Brush my teeth, they're mighty sensitive, Worship Satan, Brush my teeth,*/
/* Brush my teeth, they're mighty sensitive, since 1966, they're mighty */
/* sensitive. -- Ministry, "Corrosion" from Psalm 69 */

[ Area: Technology / Forum: Hardware-Hacking ]

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Post: 1 of 51
Subject: G. Gordon Liddy
From: doug (Douglas Luce)
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 23:48:02 EDT

it doesn't seem too strange to me that liddy would not be in favor of
something that seeks to further empower big brother. you'll recall
that the guy spent "longer than World War II" locked up in the federal
penitentiary system.

i saw the dude speak as well. anyone who wasn't there missed out. the
speech was captivating and interesting. several times, the audience would
laugh en masse or applaud him on some point (i.e. "I would do Watergate
again in a hot minute.").

the guy, however, is pure evil. the first part of his speech was
dedicated to bashing the "people who play with words...why do they call
them 'the visually challanged?'" and proceeded to deftly twist language
around to his own ends "...when some nitwit steps out from between two
parked cars right into your path, forcing you to slam on the brakes, do
you stick your head out the window and shout 'hey, are you visually
challenged or something?'"

he also cites as his motivation for his daily radio show "to counteract
the liberal media establishment."

he also explained a few break-in jobs he did in and out of prison. people
loved it. this is the sort of guy that could successfully run for
president. i hope someone guns the fucker down one day soon.

[ Area: Zones / Forum: Legal ]

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Post: 229 of 231
Xref: phantom.com general:229 comp.human-factors:1586 comp.misc:2854 misc.misc:2958
Newsgroups: uk.misc,general,comp.human-factors,comp.misc,misc.misc,uk.general
From: cstxqbe@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Kate Kingman)
Subject: Project On Women In Computing
Summary: Third year project
Keywords: Impending deadline - help - lack of women - replies needed please
Sender: news@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Network News)
Nntp-Posting-Host: granite
Distribution: uk
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 13:24:37 GMT
Lines: 106

Hello.

I am a final year student at the University of Warwick. I am trying to
complete a project on computer addiction and the lack of women in computing (2
separate sections!). I would be grateful if anyone could fill in the following
questionnaire with relevent data for their company, as I have had a lack of
response from those sent by normal mail (even with stamped, addressed
return envelopes etc) and the deadline is now getting a bit close! Thanks!
E-mail replies preferred thanks. cstxqbe@dcs.warwick.ac.uk

Questionnaire On Women In Computing.
Katherine Kingman
Computer Science 3rd Year
University Of Warwick

Please answer as many questions as possible. Data will only be used for
statistical purposes unless specific permission for other uses is granted.
All information will remain confidential. Approximations are permissible if
indicated at the relevent point. Thank you.

Company Name :

Address :

sual area covered by company (eg whole UK, South East, Midlands) :

Nature of business :
Number of UK employees (please state if this is an approximation) :

Nature of normal company computing (eg in-house support/development, main
business of company) :

Number of computing staff :
Male : Female :

Please state the number of workers in each of these general categories :
Male Female
System designers (eg hardware)
Engineers
Operators
Support staff
Programmers
Analysts
Team leaders
Managers
Other (please state)

Does your company have any policy regarding the employment of women?

If so, what is it?

Have you ever experienced any problems recruiting staff, especially women?

If so, what were they?

Does your company have extra maternity/paternity benefits above the legal
requirements?

If so, what are they :

Does your company have a policy regarding help with childcare (eg creche at
workplace, childminding assistance)?

If so, what is it?

Does your company have part-time workers in the computing department?

If so, in which job categories?

Does your company operate any flexitime/job sharing schemes for computing
staff?

If so, what are they?

How many of your computing staff are graduates?
Male : Female :

How many of these have degrees in Computer Science/related subjects?
Male : Female :

Is there any noticeable difference in the turnover of your male and female
staff?

Any other information you feel may be relevant or helpful :

Thankyou for your help.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Kate Kingman \ cstxqbe@dcs.warwick.ac.uk \ I leave the typos to ~
~ ** The Tall BlondE **\ esudb@csv.warwick.ac.uk \ occupy all the bored ~
~ :)| \ :)| \ people out there. :) ~

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Post: 230 of 231
Xref: phantom.com general:230 comp.human-factors:1587 comp.misc:2855 misc.misc:2962
From: choy@dvinci.USask.Ca (Henry Choy)
Newsgroups: uk.misc,general,comp.human-factors,comp.misc,misc.misc,uk.general
Subject: Re: Project On Women In Computing
Date: 21 Apr 1993 20:01:06 GMT
Lines: 22
Distribution: uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: dvinci.usask.ca
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Kate Kingman (cstxqbe@dcs.warwick.ac.uk) wrote:
:
: Hello.
:
: I am a final year student at the University of Warwick. I am trying to
: complete a project on computer addiction and the lack of women in computing (2
: separate sections!).

An intriguing problem. Perhaps women have different priorities, which
gets them out of the computer trap.
: Nature of business :

Monkey

--

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca

What do we explore now, Spock?
How about the wild sorority girls of the planet Playtex?

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Xref: phantom.com comp.mail:228 general:231
Newsgroups: comp.mail,fido7.hitech,general
From: root@telesys.sensor.zgrad.su (igor)
Subject: Please help me to find e-mail address of firm "Trimble Navigation"./empty/
Reply-To: root@telesys.sensor.zgrad.su
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 16:58:14 GMT
Lines: 2
Sender: news-service@sensor.zgrad.su

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Post: 6830 of 6873
Xref: phantom.com soc.men:16530 soc.women:15113 alt.feminism:4894 misc.legal:17074 alt.censorship:6830
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
From: karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 07:51:58 GMT
Sender: usenet@anasazi.com (Usenet News)
Lines: 74

In article <1993Apr11.191423.53029@gmuvax.gmu.edu> scoile@mason1.gmu.edu (Elioc S. Nevets) writes:
>[...]
>>>1) Some porn causes harm.
>
>I do not believe that pornography "causes" harm. Pornography may be an
>indirect result of harm (e. g. "kiddie porn"), or may express stories
>which inflict harm if implemented, but I cannot understand how
>pornography can cause harm any more than any other printed work. Sane
>people do not spontaneously discard their morals at the behest of a
>magazine or movie -- the disposition must exist prior to the exposure,

No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.

>and that disposition may come from many, many sources. Attempting to
>ban "free expression" because it might insite a minority of people who

pornography has as much to do with "free expression" as owning nuclear
weapons has to do the the right to keep and bear arms.

>are predisposed to such behavior anyway is wrong. We might as well ban
>the Bible, since there are numerous examples of Christian fanatics who
>believe they have the Devine Right to impose their values on others, to
>the detriment or even destruction of others. Obviously, the Bible has
>the ability to insite people to harm others.
>

Well, our founding fathers recognized that the good that comes from religion
in general, and the Bible in particular, so far outweights the bad that they
protected religious freedom in the first amendment. Pornography never has
had such protection. I'd like to say "and never will", but given the current
occupants of the White House, that may be overly optimistic.
>*Has* child pornography been "shown to cause harm"? To whom does it
>cause harm, once created? I make no attempt to argue that minors are
>capable of making an informed, responsible decision regarding their
>participation, nor am I saying there is nothing wrong with using
>children for pornographic purposes. I'm curious about what arguments
>can be made supporting the assertion that child pornography harms or
>insites the viewer.
>

So you contend that the Bible, which has good intent, can incite people
to harm others, but porn, which has - certainly not good - intent, cannot
incite people to harm others?

>
>Some pornography glorifies women. Some pictures in Life objectifies
>
>In the matter of consentual pornography, there is no direct threat to
>the common good. Each person involved is making an individual choice,
>and that choice affects only those who chose to participate in the
>additional creation, distribution, and consumption of pornography. I do
>not believe the argument that pornography destructively degrades women,
>or that it encourages child molesters or rapists to commit their crimes,
>has enough merit to support a ban on it.
>
>-Steve Coile

Long before Hitler started slaughtering the Jews, there was a systematic
attack against their humanity. Now clearly any "sane" person, even in
1930's Germany, had to believe Jews were human. But eventually they were
able to suppress that truth and accept the progressively worse treatment
that was meted out to the Jews, until it reached its ultimate evil
conclusion. This is not to say that there is any such conspiracy against
women and children in this society. However, it does poignantly illustrate
how easily we can become desensitized to what would naturally offend us.
Just look at the level of violence - no, make that savagery - rampant in
our society. Pornography clearly has no redeeming social value (a standard
I find far too lax, but which, nonetheless, makes the point) and does not
deserve to be tolerated.

Karl Dussik, speaking in favor of some much needed civility.

[ Usenet Newsgroup: alt.censorship ]

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Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 02:22:19 GMT
Lines: 168

karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

[...]
>No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
>time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
>continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.

== Excerpt ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/civil-liberty/artistic-freedom.aclu ==
[From the ACLU briefing paper on artistic freedom, comments follow]
---
But don't obscene and pornographic works cause anti-social and even
violent behavior?
---
No direct link between exposure to sexually explicit material and
anti-social behavior or sexual violence has ever been scientifically
established. In 1967, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed a panel
of experts to examine this issue. But after three years of extensive
research, the National Commission on Obscenity and Pornography found
no convincing evidence of a causal connection.

Indeed, the commission concluded that the real problem is not sexual
imagery but "the inability or reluctance of people in our society to
be open and direct in dealing with sexual matters." The commission
called for the repeal of existing obscenity statutes, except those
concerning children, and recommended better sex education, better
communication about sexual matters and more research.

In 1985, President Reagan's Attorney General, Edwin Meese, convened
another commission, stating that "re-examination of the issue of
pornography is long overdue." The Meese Commission, chaired by a
zealous anti-pornography federal prosecutor, held public hearings at
which a parade of witnesses recounted tales of sexual abuse. The
commission then declared that it had established a link between such
abuse and pornography and proposed new censorship laws. Soon
afterwards several prominent scientists whose studies the Commission's
report had cited disassociated themselves from the report, charging
that their research had been misrepresented.

==========================================
"If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a
state has no business telling a man, sitting along in his
own house, what books he may read or what films he must
watch."
-- Justice Thurgood Marshall
==========================================

Social scientists believe that while a troubled upbringing and
alcoholism appear to be strongly linked to sexual violence, it is
virtually impossible to demonstrate that such violence is caused by
pornography. In any case, violent criminals often claim to be
inspired by nonpornographic material. Serial killer Theodore Bundy
collected cheerleader magazines. John Hinckley stalked President
Reagan after seeing the renowned film "Taxi Driver." And several mass
murderers claimed to have been inspired by passages in the Bible. As
these examples suggest, blaming books or films for the acts of
disturbed individuals is a simplistic approach that could destroy
freedom without deterring crime at all.
===========================================

[...]
>Well, our founding fathers recognized that the good that comes from religion
>in general, and the Bible in particular, so far outweights the bad that they
>protected religious freedom in the first amendment.

I disagree. The founders protected religious liberty not so much
because they thought Religion-In-General was good, but rather because
they knew that a lack of religious liberty causes religious wars.

Also note that under our current Surpreme Court the Bible has no
protection as a religious book. If it was found to be "harmful" by the
same criteria as applied to nonreligious books, it could be banned ...
except that it is protected by the free expressions parts of the
First Amendment.

>Pornography never has had such protection.

Nonobscene pornography has been protected since the 1960's. It is
currently protected under _Miller v. California_ (1973).
Note that *no* free speech case reached the Supreme Court until 1919
(_Schenck_). Free speech was not declared protected until 1925
(_Gitlow v. New York_), and even then Gitlow still went to jail. Free
speech rights didn't keep anyone out of jail until six years later
(_Yetta Stromberg v. California_).

[...]
>So you contend that the Bible, which has good intent, can incite people
>to harm others, but porn, which has - certainly not good - intent, cannot
>incite people to harm others?

The usual intent of porn is to aid masturbation. Are you saying that
masturbation is "certainly not good"?

[...]
>Long before Hitler started slaughtering the Jews, there was a systematic
>attack against their humanity.
[...]

The lesson you draw from Hitler is that government should be given
authority to supress material that it says "has no redeeming social
value". I draw the opposite lesson.

Our own history in the U.S. shows that if we give the government
authority to ban material that causes "bad tendencies", it will
abuse that authority.

[From ACLU Briefing Paper Number 10: Freedom of Expression]
= Except ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/civil-liberty/freedom-of-expression.aclu ==
----
How did the courts respond to First Amendment violations?
---
The lower courts were almost universally hostile to the First Amendment
rights of political minorities. However, free speech issues did not
reach the Supreme Court until 1919. That year, the Court dealt with free
speech for the first time in the case of _Schenck v. U.S._ Charles T.
Schenck, a member of the Socialist Party, had been convicted of violating
the Espionage Act for mailing anti-war leaflets to draft-age men during
World War I. The Supreme Court unanimously upheld his conviction. The
prevailing legal view at the time was that any speech that had a
"tendency" to cause a violation of law could be punished.

The _Schenck_ case was quickly followed by others that ended in decisions
equally contemptuous of First Amendment freedoms. Among them was the case
of Jacob Adams, convicted under the Sedition Act of 1918 for distributing
leaflets that criticized the American military. However, even though the
Supreme Court upheld Abrams' conviction, the decision in his case was a
watershed: Justices Oliver Wendell Holmes and Louis D. Brandeis dissented,
stating that speech could not be punished unless it presented "a clear and
present danger" of imminent harm. The Holmes-Brandeis dissent marked the
beginning of modern First Amendment theory.

The Supreme Court declared the inviolability of First Amendment rights
for the first time in 1925 in _Gitlow v. New York_, a case that challenged
the conviction of a communist revolutionary under New York's Criminal
Anarchy law. Although the Court affirmed the conviction, it announced that
freedom of speech and press were protected by the First Amendment from
federal encroachment, _and_ "are among the fundamental personal rights and
'liberties' protected by the states." This holding paved the way for
Yetta Stromberg to prevail, six years later, in an appeal of her
conviction under a California law that made it a crime to publicly salute
a red flag -- the symbol of revolution.

Thereafter, the right to freedom of expression became more secure -- that
is, up until the advent of McCarthyism in the 1950s. During this second
"red scare," the Supreme Court weakened the "clear and present danger"
test by holding that speakers could be punished if they advocated
overthrowing the government, no matter how remote the danger of such an
occurrence might be. Under this new test, many political activists were
prosecuted and jailed for advocating communist revolution. Laws that
required people to sign loyalty oaths, swearing that they were not members
of any subversive organizations, were also upheld and not reversed until 1967.

Finally, in the 1969 case of _Brandenberg v. Ohio_, the Supreme Court
struck down the conviction of a Ku Klux Klan member under a criminal
syndicalism law and established a new standard: Speech may not be
suppressed or punished unless it is intended to produce "imminent lawless
action" and it is "likely to produce such action." Otherwise, the First
Amendment protects even speech that advocates violence. The _Brandenberg_
test is the law today.
========================

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
= kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

[ Usenet Newsgroup: alt.censorship ]

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Xref: phantom.com soc.history:8284 alt.censorship:6832 alt.activism:13143 alt.revisionism:1143
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.activism,alt.revisionism
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: No Gas Chambers at Auschwitz -- Historian Defies Judge, is Fined!
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: news@cs.brown.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 01:08:49 GMT
Lines: 98

dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:

Yes, it's Gannon/Maynard/Winston again, continuing with his unrelenting
effort to resurrect the Third Reich. Not surprising, if you read how he
hails Nazism on his BBS, in addition to posting articles about the
"inferiority" of non-Whites.

# Historian Defies Judge in Dramatic Case

Of course, everything about these folks is "dramatic", or "of major
importance", or "the greatest intellectual challenge of the century",
etc.
Irving is usually described as an "investigative reporter", or "independent
historian" by his neo-Nazi followers. He was, twice, convicted in court
for lying and slandering, in matters which have no relation to the
Holocaust. But the most particular thing about Irving is his consistency.
Recently, he has again changed his mind and stated that there was a
direct order from Hitler to exterminate the Jews, and that mass gassing
of Jews did take place! This created havoc, and Irving was bitterly
denounced by his fellow Nazis for this unforgivable blasphemy.

# that there are no measurable traces of ferro-ferric-cyanide (from
# Zyklon) in the walls of the Auschwitz structures allegedly used as
# homicidal gas chambers, whereas the walls of the camp's delousing gas
# chambers have such traces in abundance.

This was addressed numerous times on the net and elsewhere. The explanation
is very simple, and can be verified by looking at any textbook on
toxicology: the concentration of HCN necessary to kill lice and bugs
is much higher than the one required to kill humans (up to 16,000 ppm
vs. 300 ppm, ppm=parts per million). Also, the exposure time is much
shorter in homicidal gassing (10-15 minutes) as opposed to delousing
(up to 16 hours). Hence, the walls of the delousing chambers were
exposed for a much longer time to the gas, allowing more compounds to
form. Furthermore, the gas chambers were dynamited by the fleeing SS,
and the delousing chambers left intact; the ruins of the chambers were
exposed for 45 years to rain, acid rain, and the sun, which dissolve
the compounds. This was explained in great detail by Polish, German
and American chemists.

Here is an official report about the gassing process in Auschwitz,
written by a top SS officer for his superiors.

Report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by SS-Sturmbannfuehrer
Gricksch for SS-Col. von Herff and Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler, after
inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.
[Fleming, "Hitler and the Final Solution", p. 142]
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Auschwitz camp plays a special role in the resolution of the Jewish
question. The most advance methods permit the execution of the
Fuehrer-order in the shortest possible time and without arousing much
attention. The so-called "resettlement action" runs the following
course: The Jews arrive in special trains (freight cars) toward
evening and are driven on special tracks to areas of the camp
specifically set aside for this purpose. There the Jews are unloaded
and examined for their fitness to work by a team of doctors, in the
presence of the camp commandant and several SS officers. At this point
anyone who can somehow be incorporated into the work program is put in
a special camp. The curably ill are sent straight to a medical camp
and are restored to health through a special diet. The basic principle
behind everything is: conserve all manpower for work. The previous
type of "resettlement action" has been thoroughly rejected, since it
is too costly to destroy precious work energy on a continual basis.

The unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from
outside. They go down five or six steps into a fairly long,
well-constructed and well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with
benches to the left and right. It is brightly lit, and the benches are
numbered. The prisoners are told that they are to be cleansed and
disinfected for their new assignments. They must therefore completely
undress to be bathed. To avoid panic and to prevent disturbances of
any kind, they are instructed to arrange their clothing neatly under
their respective numbers, so that they will be able to find their
things again after their bath. Everything proceeds in a perfectly
orderly fashion. Then they pass through a small corridor and enter a
large cellar room which resembles a shower bath. In this room are
three large pillars, into which certain materials can be lowered from
outside the cellar room. When three- to four-hundred people have been
herded into this room, the doors are shut, and containers filled with
the substances are dropped down into the pillars. As soon as the
containers touch the base of the pillars, they release particular
substances that put the people to sleep in one minute. A few minutes
later, the door opens on the other side, where the elevator is
located. The hair of the corpses is cut off, and their teeth are
extracted (gold-filled teeth) by specialists (Jews). It has been
discovered that Jews were hiding pieces of Jewelry, gold, platinum
etc., in hollow teeth. Then the corpses are loaded into elevators and
brought up to the first floor, where ten large crematoria are located.
(Because fresh corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs. of
coke are needed for the whole process.) The job itself is performed
by Jewish prisoners, who never step outside this camp again.

-Danny Keren.

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From: dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.activism,alt.revisionism
Subject: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Date: 21 Apr 1993 07:52:02 -0700
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THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE

by Theodore J. O'Keefe

HARD BY THE WASHINGTON MONUMENT, within clear view of the Jefferson
Memorial, an easy stroll down the Mall to the majestic Lincoln Memorial,
has arisen, on some of the most hallowed territory of the United States of
America, a costly and dangerous mistake. On ground where no monument yet
marks countless sacrifices and unheralded achievements of Americans of all
races and creeds in the building and defense of this nation, sits today a
massive and costly edifice, devoted above all to a contentious and false
version of the ordeal in Europe during World War II, of non-American
members of a minority, sectarian group. Now, in the deceptive guise of
tolerance, the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum begins a propaganda
campaign, financed through the unwitting largess of the American taxpayer,
in the interests of Israel and its adherents in America.

How did the federal government allow the creation of such a
monstrosity? What is its meaning for American policy and for American
values? And what must the American people do to regain control of the land
their servants in Washington handed over to a foreign interest and to
establish an enterprise thereon, whether a museum or otherwise, informed by
and conducted according to American principles and interests?

[Photograph captioned, "The five-story, $150 million US Holocaust Memorial
Museum in Washington, D.C. was built and is operated by a taxpayer-funded
federal agency. In the foreground is the museum's six-sided "Hall of
Remembrance."

ORIGINS
In the late 1970s, during the presidency of James Earl "Jimmy" Carter,
a propaganda campaign to promote the "Holocaust," the alleged systematic
slaughter of some 6 million Jews by the Germans during World War II, was
organized and carried out from Hollywood and New York. As Benjamin Meed, an
important functionary of the council which controls the Holocaust museum,
wrote in 1990:

Almost a dozen years ago, a new phenomena [sic] developed. The
Holocaust was introduced into schools, colleges, and universities.
Television broadcast programs on the Holocaust and millions of
Americans watched them. Soon, Americans took great interest in the
lessons of the Holocaust, its uniqueness and its universal message.(1)

Why the urgency of this campaign? Two factors were paramount: first,
the beginnings, more than three decades after the end of World War II, of
an objective scholarly assessment of the facts of the alleged German policy
to exterminate European Jewry.(2)

Second, the need to justify Zionist theory and practice in the face of
unprecedented international resistance to Israeli intransigence (including
the famous UN General Assembly Resolution which equated Zionism with
racism), and to defend Israel's aggressive policy under the leadership of
the former terrorist, Prime Minister Menachem Begin.(3)

THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL COUNCIL

In 1978 President Carter, his administration beleaguered at home and
abroad, succumbed to pressure from the new "Holocaust" lobby (and thus
America's influential Israel-first minority) by creating, through executive
order, the President's Commission on the Holocaust. Two years later, on
October 7, 1988, Congress passed--unanimously--a law establishing the
United States Holocaust Memorial Council, charged principally with
constructing and overseeing the operation of "a permanent living memorial
to the victims of the holocaust" and with providing "for appropriate ways
for the Nation to commemorate the Days of Remembrance, as an annual,
national, civic commemoration of the Holocaust..."(4)

A priceless tract of public land was turned over to the council, and,
after years of costly delay (during which the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Council's budget swelled from $2.5 million to over $18 million a year), the
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum has been completed and readied for opening
on April 22, 1993.

A SECTARIAN, ALIEN AGENDA

The Holocaust Memorial Council, besides soliciting tens of millions of
dollars in tax-deductible donations to finance the Holocaust museum, has
busied itself with promoting an agenda of unalloyed support for minority,
Zionist ends.

The membership of the council, a U.S. federal agency, has been
overwhelmingly Jewish since its founding in 1980. The council's two
different chairmen--Elie Wiesel and Harvey Meyerhoff--have both been
committed to the support of the state of Israel, and the chairs of the
council's most important committees have been likewise Jewish and Zionist.

The chief fundraiser for the Holocaust museum, Miles Lerman, was
formerly American vice chairman for the State of Israel Bonds Organization,
promoting tax-free investment in a country which receives by far the
largest amount of U.S. foreign aid per year. Working the same wealthy
Jewish Americans he has long dealt with in his fundraising for Israel,
Lerman has helped raise nearly $160 million in tax-deductible
contributions. The biggest donors have been rewarded by having various
components of the museum named for them, e.g. the Wexler Learning Center.

Nor is erecting and operating the Holocaust Memorial Museum the only
function with which the Holocaust Memorial Council has been charged.
Another of its duties is to commemorate the Days of Remembrance for Victims
of the Holocaust, which Congress has raised to "an annual, national, civic
commemoration of the Holocaust." Like the Israeli Yom Hashoah (Day of the
Holocaust), on which they are based, the Days of Remembrance are dated
according to the lunar Hebrew calendar, and thus like Passover or Chanukah,
fluctuate from year to year. These foreign days of lamentation are
currently celebrated, under the flag of the republic, to prayers and chants
in Hebrew, in governmental settings from the Capital Rotunda to city halls,
across the land. Need it be stated that no group of American victims of
persecution, let alone another foreign group, enjoys any such federally
mandated and tax-supported day, or days, of recognition?

THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM'S ONE-SIDED "HISTORY"

Although the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council during its early years
made noises about recognizing the ordeals of non-Jews during World War II,
by every indication from advance literature published by the council, the
U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is relentlessly Judeocentric. While,
according to a preliminary ground plan of the permanent exhibit, here and
there are nods to non-Jewish groups oppressed by the German National
Socialists (never to groups victimized by Germany's enemies, above all by
Stalin's USSR), the larger holocaust of World War II, which claimed an
estimated 75 to 80 million lives around the world, is ignored in preference
to the Jewish ordeal. Thus, to cite just one telling example, the museum's
"Life before the Holocaust" exhibit refers strictly to *Jewish* life before
the Holocaust.(5)

Where, in fact, non-Jews figure in the Museum, they figure largely as
villains: the Germans and their allies and collaborators; the Western
Allies, including America, who refused to accept a large immigration before
the war; the American political and military leaders who refused to
authorize costly bombing raids on the Auschwitz "gas chambers."

RED LIBERATORS?

The museum's message that support for Jews is the sole measure of
decency during World War II leads to anomalies which, in an American museum
raised on ground hallowed to the principles of liberty on which this
republic is based, can only be called shocking. That the victims of World
War II atrocities by the Allies--massacres such as the fire-bombing of
Tokyo and Dresden, the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviet
slaughter of their Polish prisoners at Katyn, the mass rapes carried out by
the Red Army at the war's end--receive no mention is deplorable. But the
museum's treatment of the armed forces which defended Stalin's savage
Soviet tyranny is nothing short of grotesque.

In the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, Communists appear only in the
guise of "resistance fighters" and "liberators." For example, the
submachine gun and false papers of Samuel Weissberg, a Communist Party
member who rose to high rank in a Communist guerrilla group in North
France, are on honored display, no less precious a relic than the standard
heaps of shoes and hair, in the museum's permanent exhibit.(6)

Even more unsettling is the honor given to Stalin's notorious Red
Army, which compiled a bloody and shameful record of atrocities across
Europe during, and after, the war. As the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Council's newsletter fulsomely puts it, "Flags will hang in the museum to
honor the millions of Soviet soldiers who drove Nazi forces westward and
who were the first Allied forces to liberate and publicize the existence of
the camps." In the words of Council chairman Harvey Meyerhoff, these
martial banners of the Red tyranny have a single association: "Much more
than simply wartime memorabilia, these military artifacts are a significant
contribution to memory, one that will remind future generations of the
pivotal role Soviet forces played in defeating Nazism..."(7)

What must the millions of Americans originating or descending from the
European nations--Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania,
Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, [former] Yugoslavia--
for which the Red "military artifacts" symbolized invasion, tyranny,
oppression and persecution of religion think as they see the fierce armies
of *their* persecutors hailed as "liberators"?

ISRAEL IN THE MUSEUM

Just as one might guess from the circumstance that the museum's
director, Yeshayahu Weinberg, and the head of its "Learning Center,"
Yechiam Halevy, were brought in from Israel, the museum's treatment of the
state of Israel is adulatory. An emotive tribute to the founding of Israel
is an integral part of the exhibition. That the establishment of Israel,
and its expansion in subsequent wars, has meant colonial occupation and
oppression for millions of the land's native Palestinians, and
dispossession and exile for millions more, goes unmentioned--another
grotesquery in an American museum supposed to instruct in the dangers of
intolerance and disregard of human rights. As for the momentous
collaboration between Hitler's German state and the Jewish Agency in the
1930s, which through the Ha'avara Agreement enabled the transfer of vital
capital and the influx of tens of thousands of highly skilled Jewish
immigrants to Palestine, that is passed over in utter silence.(8)

"HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS"

The Holocaust Museum's skewed history is not simply a matter of one-
sidedness and omission. The museum has further committed itself to a fixed
and final interpretation of the surprisingly scanty and sometimes suspect
evidence for a German policy of annihilating European Jewry, largely in gas
chambers, in numbers approaching 6 million. This despite a considerable
body of research and scholarship that has arisen over the past two decades
in many lands, and which contests, by academic means, the substance of the
Holocaust "extermination thesis."(9)

That the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council is aware of the work of the
revisionists is clear: The council's literature is replete, not with
substantive refutations of revisionist scholarship, but with slander and
polemic. To cite one characteristic example, the _U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Museum Newsletter_ of May, 1992 featured a front-page attack on Holocaust
revisionism by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Occidental College in which
the author decried the revisionists for producing material that looked
scholarly, then lauded the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum as "among the
most efficacious ways" of "combating this pernicious trend," *while
neglecting to specify a single error of revisionist scholarship.*(10)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council recognizes that there is a
historical debate on the holocaust, but takes official notice of the
dissenting position only to attack it. That an American institution,
supported by the taxes of all Americans, should commit itself to inflexible
historical orthodoxy--in the service of a single American minority--is an
intolerable imposition on our First Amendment rights, as well as a mockery
of the Western, and American, ideal of objective scholarship.

A CENTER FOR EDUCATION?

U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council Chairman Harvey Meyerhoff has stated:
"The museum is primarily an educational institution."(11) From the
council's own literature, however, it is clear what Meyerhoff means by
education. The "role-playing" for children as well as adults who visit the
museum (visitors are to be issued "identity cards" bearing the name and
alleged fate of various Holocaust victims); the high-tech computer and
video effects and the recordings of speech and music which augment the
museum's tendentiously described artifacts; and the museum's goal, as
proclaimed by its Zionist fundraising chairman, Miles Lerman, of ensuring
that "Children in Dubuque, families in Tucson, and schoolteachers in
Atlanta will learn the history and the lessons of Auschwitz as thoroughly
as they learn the history of their own communities"--all these show that
the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is a *propaganda* enterprise that seeks
to indoctrinate all Americans in a uniquely and partisanly Jewish (and
Zionist) version of not merely the past, but the present and the
future.(12)

THE AMERICAN RESPONSE

What is the American response to a partisan museum constructed in a
place solemnly consecrated to the heroes and the values of our republic, to
be lavishly operated with taxpayer dollars at a time when, even in our
country's capital, thousands sleep homeless in the shadow of our national
monuments? What is the American response to an ambitious propaganda agenda
that aims to impose a sectarian "Holocaust remembrance" in schools where
our children cannot pray, in town halls and federal buildings from which
the religious symbols of the majority are banned in the name of freedom of
worship?

Over two centuries ago, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "To compel a man to
furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he
disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."(13)

Nearly 150 years ago, Abraham Lincoln said: "I insist that if there is
*anything* which it is the duty of the *whole people* to never entrust to
any hands but their own, that thing is the preservation and perpetuity of
their own liberties and institutions."(14)

The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, and the council which runs it, as
agencies of the government in which the American people is sovereign, must
be removed from the special interest that now controls it.

The scope and purpose of the Museum must be expanded, from its present
one-sided emphasis on foreign Jewish sufferings, real and imagined, in
Europe during the 1930s and 1940s to a compassionate yet realistic concern
for *all* victims, but above all for *American* victims, of historic
injustice.

The Museum must be made a place where Americans of every heritage, and
scholars of every viewpoint, may gather, educate, and be educated, without
accusation and in the absence of propaganda. Until it is, the men and
women who founded and built and suffered and fought and died for America,
of every race, nationality and creed, will rest uneasy.

NOTES

1. _The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_
(Washington, D.C.), August, 1990, "Survivors Play Major Role in
Establishing the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum," p.1. Meed is president of
the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, and chairman of the U.S.
Holocaust Memorial Council's Content and Days of Remembrance committees.

2. In l976, Prof. Arthur Butz's book _The Hoax of the Twentieth
Century: The Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry_ was
first published in England; in November of 1978 Prof. Robert Faurisson's
article "The Problem of the Gas Chambers" was published in the Paris daily
_Le Monde_. Butz has commented on the simultaneous and independent
appearance of a variety of earlier academic criticisms of the wartime
propaganda version of Jewry's ordeal in "The International Holocaust
Controversy," _The Journal of Historical Review_, Spring, 1980, pp. 5-22.

3. By Resolution of the UN General Assembly on Novembe 10, 1975,
Zionism was condemned as "a form of racism and racial discrimination."

4. Public Law 96-388, 1, October 7, 1980, 94 Stat. 1547.

5. Statements regarding the museum's permanent exhibit, except where
otherwise noted, are derived from the floor plan and photographs in _United
States Holocaust Memorial Museum_, a brochure published by the USHMC in
Washington 1991.

6. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, Sept., 1991, "French
Resistance Fighter's Weapon Will Help Tell Story of Underground Movement."
p.4

7. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, fall. 1992, "Russian
Embassy Presents Flags of Liberating Units to Museum," p.6.

8. For the most complete account of relations between the Nazis and
the Zionists, see Francis Nicosia, _The Third Reich and the Palestine
Question_, Austin: University of Texas, 1985

9. The most complete survey of holocaust revisionist writings to date
is Carlo Mattogno's "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews--Part II,"
in _The Journal of Historical Review_ (fall, 1988), pp. 261-302.

10. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, May, 1992, "Denying
the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth," p.6.

11. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, November, 1991,
"Wexner Family donates $5 Million to Fund Interactive Learning Center,"
p.1.

12. The "identity cards" and other features of the museum are
described in the brochure cited in note 5 above; Lerman's statement was
included in a fundraising letter sent by the museum to potential Jewish
contributors in 1991.

13. From "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom," 1779, in
_Jefferson: Magnificent Populist_, edited by Martin Larson, Greenwich,
Conn.: Devin-Adair, 1981. p.319.

14. "Speech at Peoria, Illinois." October 16, 1854, in _The American
Intellectual Tradition_, Vol. 1, edited by David Hollinger and Charles
Capper, New York: Oxford University Press, 1989, p. 382.

___________________________________________________________________________

Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
Review. Educated at Harvard University, he has studied history and
literature on three continents, and has published numerous articles on
historical and political subjects.
___________________________________________________________________________

The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other
materials, as well as the bi-monthly _Journal of Historical Review_. Send
$2 for a complete catalog and selection of literature. More copies of this
leaflet are available, postpaid, at the following prices:

10 copies, $2
50 copies, $5
100 copies or more, 8 cents each

INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
P.O. Box 2739
Newport Beach, CA 92659

-=End

-Dan Gannon

--
dgannon@techbook.COM Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400, N81)

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Subject: Re: No Gas Chambers at Auschwitz -- Historian Defies Judge, is Fined!
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 93 15:23:44 GMT
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Lines: 139

In article <1r1k8u$1t8@techbook.techbook.com> dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon, aka "Maynard the Main Nerd") writes:

> Irving Fined $6,000 in German "Gas Chamber" Trial

> During the hearing, Irving stood by his public statements,
>maintaining that no Jews were gassed in Auschwitz.

Which simply illustrates Irving's lack of basic research skills as a
"historian."

> Rudolf's report, which provides still more authoritative
>confirmation of the 1988 findings of American gas chamber expert Fred
>Leuchter, will be published in Germany in the next several months.

Leuchter "authoritative?" He's been so thoroughly discredited I'd think
Irving would have been embarrassed to cite his report in a court of law.

> Even though the judge confirmed that the decades-old claim that
>the structures shown to tourists at Auschwitz are not the original "gas
>chambers," he rejected every defense witness and exhibit because, he
>said, the Auschwitz gas chambers have been historically proven.

As indeed they have. The "structures shown to tourists" refers to the single
structure of Krema I, in which about 10,000 were gassed, including Soviet
POW's and Jews, during experiments with the insecticide Zyklon B to
determine correct dosage and time required. This structure, having served
its purpose, was then converted to an air-raid shelter by the Nazis. After
the war, it was restored by the Soviets to its original condition.

> Stelzner's declaration that extermination gassings of Jews at
>Auschwitz is a "historically established fact" was greeted with
>derisive laughter by Irving supporters in the courtroom.

Yes, the paleo-Nazi gallows humour surfaces once again, as illustrated by
Irving's well-known remark about the "one man gas chamber" used by the
Nazis.

> "As a historian," he said, "I have a duty to bring out the truth.
>As a judge, you have the same duty. All the same, it appears that in
>Germany you have certain difficulties with that."

Strange comment from the "historian" who tried to mislead his readers by
conveniently omitting two of the four lines of Himmler's telephone log
(request irving irving.07 from our archives for a discussion of this matter
by the late Lucy Dawidowicz).

> Meanwhile, Jewish organizations in Britain are pressuring book
>stores not to stock or sell the revised new edition of Irving's 850-
>page master work, _Hitler's War_. (Available from the IHR for $49.95,
>plus $4.00 shipping.)

Given the author's clear scholarly dishonesty, these "Jewish organizations"
clearly made an error - they should have encouraged folks to read Irving's
book, and provided the overwhelming evidence of his dishonesty at the same
time, since Irving's own work serves to discredit his thesis.

> Irving is convinced that the tide of history is with the
>Revisionists. "It is going to be a hot twelve months," he recently
>told a reporter, "but at the end of it, the gas chamber legend will
>have vanished once and for all."

Discredited as a historian, we now see Irving's foretelling powers shot down
as well.... his "hot twelve months" has come and gone, and the truth about
the gas chambers at Auschwitz is firmly and conclusively understood and
accepted by the world, while only his credibility has "vanished."

> Within two years, he told a meeting in Hamburg last November,
>"this myth of mass murders of Jews in the death factories of Auschwitz,
>Majdanek and Treblinka, etc., etc., which in fact never took place. . .

See above - Irving obviously lacks foresight.

> Irving, author of dozens of best-selling, acclaimed works of
>twentieth-century history, will address the Eleventh IHR conference in
>October.

Tell me, Gannon, did he discuss the loss of two libel suits with the IHR?
(Or did he simply cover them up, like the first two lines of Himmler's
log?)

> This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the
>"Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in Portland,
>Oregon, U.S.A.

This article was transcribed by Dan Gannon, the owner and operator of the
system known as b-cpu, under the appropriate pseudonym "Maynard the Main
Nerd" and others.

> Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech!

Not to mention such stirling views as those of the Aryan Nation, the Klan,
Christian Identity, and other such "patriotic" organizations. (Tell us, Dan,
do you really believe Blacks are less intelligent than Whites, and that they
have smaller brains, or did someone upload that file to your system when you
were sleeping?)

> Sysop: Maynard "the Main Nerd"

AKA Dan Gannon, Portland, Oregon. Tell us, Dan, about whether or not the
infamous "$50,000 Offer" which was made on multiple occasions by users of
your system, was made with your knowledge and consent?

Those who have
posted this "offer" article, including Dan Gannon, the sysop of
"b-cpu", and the personalities "Peter Faust", "George Martin" and
"Ralph Winston" have been asked the following questions on at least
two dozen occasions, and have either refused outright to answer, or
or simply ignored them:

1. What is the legal name, or names, of the individual or
individuals, or organization that has made this offer?

2. What is the legal mailing address of the person, persons,
or organization making this offer?

3. What is the name of the bank, and the branch of the bank,
which holds funds in trust with regard to this offer?

Unless answers to these questions are forthcoming, one can only dismiss
constant references to the "standing offer" as outright fraud; when you
see the "offer" repeated, make a point of asking these questions of the
person posting the referral. FALSUS IN UNO, FALSUS IN OMNIB-CPU...
To Dan Gannon, of Portland, Oregon, I address the following questions -

1. Are you the owner and operator of the computer system
known as "b-cpu"?

2. Is the posting of this "$50,000 offer" being carried out with
your knowledge and consent?

3. What is your legal address for the purpose of registered
mail? (Is "1537 SE 43rd. Avenue, Portland 97215" as listed
in the UUCP maps correct?)
--
The Old Frog's Almanac - A Salute to That Old Frog Hisse'f, Ryugen Fisher
(604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) SCO XENIX 2.3.2 GT
Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA. Serving Central Vancouver Island
with public access UseNet and Internet Mail - home to the Holocaust Almanac

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From: pgf5@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Peter Garfiel Freeman)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Sender: usenet@news.columbia.edu (The Network News)
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 17:57:28 GMT
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Es tragt Verstand und rechter Sinn
Mit wenig kunst sich selber vor,
Und wenn's euch Ernst ist, was zu sagen,
Ist's notig,m Worten nachzujagen?

Peace,
Pete

>
>"HISTORICAL CORRECTNESS"
>
> The Holocaust Museum's skewed history is not simply a matter of one-
>sidedness and omission. The museum has further committed itself to a fixed
>and final interpretation of the surprisingly scanty and sometimes suspect
>evidence for a German policy of annihilating European Jewry, largely in gas
>chambers, in numbers approaching 6 million. This despite a considerable
>body of research and scholarship that has arisen over the past two decades
>in many lands, and which contests, by academic means, the substance of the
>Holocaust "extermination thesis."(9)
>
> That the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council is aware of the work of the
>revisionists is clear: The council's literature is replete, not with
>substantive refutations of revisionist scholarship, but with slander and
>polemic. To cite one characteristic example, the _U.S. Holocaust Memorial
>Museum Newsletter_ of May, 1992 featured a front-page attack on Holocaust
>revisionism by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Occidental College in which
>the author decried the revisionists for producing material that looked
>scholarly, then lauded the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum as "among the
>most efficacious ways" of "combating this pernicious trend," *while
>neglecting to specify a single error of revisionist scholarship.*(10)
>
> The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council recognizes that there is a
>historical debate on the holocaust, but takes official notice of the
>dissenting position only to attack it. That an American institution,
>supported by the taxes of all Americans, should commit itself to inflexible
>historical orthodoxy--in the service of a single American minority--is an
>intolerable imposition on our First Amendment rights, as well as a mockery
>of the Western, and American, ideal of objective scholarship.
>
>
>A CENTER FOR EDUCATION?
>
> U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council Chairman Harvey Meyerhoff has stated:
>"The museum is primarily an educational institution."(11) From the
>council's own literature, however, it is clear what Meyerhoff means by
>education. The "role-playing" for children as well as adults who visit the
>museum (visitors are to be issued "identity cards" bearing the name and
>alleged fate of various Holocaust victims); the high-tech computer and
>video effects and the recordings of speech and music which augment the
>museum's tendentiously described artifacts; and the museum's goal, as
>proclaimed by its Zionist fundraising chairman, Miles Lerman, of ensuring
>that "Children in Dubuque, families in Tucson, and schoolteachers in
>Atlanta will learn the history and the lessons of Auschwitz as thoroughly
>as they learn the history of their own communities"--all these show that
>the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum is a *propaganda* enterprise that seeks
>to indoctrinate all Americans in a uniquely and partisanly Jewish (and
>Zionist) version of not merely the past, but the present and the
>future.(12)
>
>
>THE AMERICAN RESPONSE
>
> What is the American response to a partisan museum constructed in a
>place solemnly consecrated to the heroes and the values of our republic, to
>be lavishly operated with taxpayer dollars at a time when, even in our
>country's capital, thousands sleep homeless in the shadow of our national
>monuments? What is the American response to an ambitious propaganda agenda
>that aims to impose a sectarian "Holocaust remembrance" in schools where
>our children cannot pray, in town halls and federal buildings from which
>the religious symbols of the majority are banned in the name of freedom of
>worship?
>
> Over two centuries ago, Thomas Jefferson wrote: "To compel a man to
>furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he
>disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."(13)
>
> Nearly 150 years ago, Abraham Lincoln said: "I insist that if there is
>*anything* which it is the duty of the *whole people* to never entrust to
>any hands but their own, that thing is the preservation and perpetuity of
>their own liberties and institutions."(14)
>
> The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, and the council which runs it, as
>agencies of the government in which the American people is sovereign, must
>be removed from the special interest that now controls it.
>
> The scope and purpose of the Museum must be expanded, from its present
>one-sided emphasis on foreign Jewish sufferings, real and imagined, in
>Europe during the 1930s and 1940s to a compassionate yet realistic concern
>for *all* victims, but above all for *American* victims, of historic
>injustice.
>
> The Museum must be made a place where Americans of every heritage, and
>scholars of every viewpoint, may gather, educate, and be educated, without
>accusation and in the absence of propaganda. Until it is, the men and
>women who founded and built and suffered and fought and died for America,
>of every race, nationality and creed, will rest uneasy.
>
>
>NOTES
>
> 1. _The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_
>(Washington, D.C.), August, 1990, "Survivors Play Major Role in
>Establishing the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum," p.1. Meed is president of
>the American Gathering of Holocaust Survivors, and chairman of the U.S.
>Holocaust Memorial Council's Content and Days of Remembrance committees.
>
> 2. In l976, Prof. Arthur Butz's book _The Hoax of the Twentieth
>Century: The Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry_ was
>first published in England; in November of 1978 Prof. Robert Faurisson's
>article "The Problem of the Gas Chambers" was published in the Paris daily
>_Le Monde_. Butz has commented on the simultaneous and independent
>appearance of a variety of earlier academic criticisms of the wartime
>propaganda version of Jewry's ordeal in "The International Holocaust
>Controversy," _The Journal of Historical Review_, Spring, 1980, pp. 5-22.
>
> 3. By Resolution of the UN General Assembly on Novembe 10, 1975,
>Zionism was condemned as "a form of racism and racial discrimination."
>
> 4. Public Law 96-388, 1, October 7, 1980, 94 Stat. 1547.
>
> 5. Statements regarding the museum's permanent exhibit, except where
>otherwise noted, are derived from the floor plan and photographs in _United
>States Holocaust Memorial Museum_, a brochure published by the USHMC in
>Washington 1991.
>
> 6. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, Sept., 1991, "French
>Resistance Fighter's Weapon Will Help Tell Story of Underground Movement."
>p.4
>
> 7. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, fall. 1992, "Russian
>Embassy Presents Flags of Liberating Units to Museum," p.6.
>
> 8. For the most complete account of relations between the Nazis and
>the Zionists, see Francis Nicosia, _The Third Reich and the Palestine
>Question_, Austin: University of Texas, 1985
>
> 9. The most complete survey of holocaust revisionist writings to date
>is Carlo Mattogno's "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews--Part II,"
>in _The Journal of Historical Review_ (fall, 1988), pp. 261-302.
>
> 10. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, May, 1992, "Denying
>the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth," p.6.
>
> 11. _U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum Newsletter_, November, 1991,
>"Wexner Family donates $5 Million to Fund Interactive Learning Center,"
>p.1.
>
> 12. The "identity cards" and other features of the museum are
>described in the brochure cited in note 5 above; Lerman's statement was
>included in a fundraising letter sent by the museum to potential Jewish
>contributors in 1991.
>
> 13. From "A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom," 1779, in
>_Jefferson: Magnificent Populist_, edited by Martin Larson, Greenwich,
>Conn.: Devin-Adair, 1981. p.319.
>
> 14. "Speech at Peoria, Illinois." October 16, 1854, in _The American
>Intellectual Tradition_, Vol. 1, edited by David Hollinger and Charles
>Capper, New York: Oxford University Press, 1989, p. 382.
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
>
> Theodore J. O'Keefe is an editor with the Institute for Historical
>Review. Educated at Harvard University, he has studied history and
>literature on three continents, and has published numerous articles on
>historical and political subjects.
>___________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> The IHR publishes numerous revisionist books, tapes and other
>materials, as well as the bi-monthly _Journal of Historical Review_. Send
>$2 for a complete catalog and selection of literature. More copies of this
>leaflet are available, postpaid, at the following prices:
>
> 10 copies, $2
> 50 copies, $5
> 100 copies or more, 8 cents each
>
> INSTITUTE FOR HISTORICAL REVIEW
> P.O. Box 2739
> Newport Beach, CA 92659
>
>-=End
>
>
>-Dan Gannon
>
>--
>dgannon@techbook.COM Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
>Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400, N81)

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Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.activism,alt.revisionism
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly...
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Sender: news@cs.brown.edu
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1993 19:25:26 GMT
Lines: 43

dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:

# THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE

The Museum is entirely funded by private donations, but don't
expect this fact to deter "Maynard".

BTW, Gannon's ideological fathers also had a passion for constructing
museums and collections, some of which served to educate the
public about the racial supremacy of the Aryans. One such
collection was that of skeletons, and there was no lack of these
around:
Letter from SS-Standartenfuehrer Sievers to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer
Dr. Brandt, November 2 1942
["Trial of the Major War Criminals", p. 520]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Comarade Brandt,

As you know, the Reichsfuehrer-SS has directed that
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Prof. Dr. Hirt be supplied with everything
needed for his research work. For certain anthropological
researches - I already reported to the Reichsfuehrer-SS on
them - 150 skeletons of prisoners, or rather Jews, are
required, which are to be supplied by the KL Auschwitz.

However, the good Doctor needed some more items to complete his
research:

Testimony of Magnus Wochner, SS guard at the Natzweiler Concentration
Camp
["The Natzweiler Trial", Edited by Anthony M. Webb, p. 89]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
... I recall particularly one mass execution when about 90 prisoners
(60 men and 30 women), all Jews, were killed by gassing. This took
place, as far as I can remember, in spring 1944. In this case the
corpses were sent to Professor Hirt of the department of Anatomy in
Strasbourg.

-Danny Keren.

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Xref: phantom.com soc.men:16588 alt.feminism:4912 alt.censorship:6837 talk.politics.theory:3830
Newsgroups: soc.men,alt.feminism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.theory
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Subject: Re: Copyright
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 18:27:02 GMT
Lines: 49

In article <ltavgaINNht2@saltillo.cs.utexas.edu> turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin) writes:
>-*----
>In article <C5r39A.III@panix.com> pw@panix.com (Paul Wallich) writes:
>> It seems that, as Gordon Fitch as said, you don't recognized the
>> implicitness of your assumption about intellectual property. In a
>> world without copyright law, creators of "intellectual property"
>> could demand all they wanted. What they wouldn't be able to do is
>> call down the machinery of the state -- people with guns, asset
>> forfeiture orders and so forth -- to enforce their demands. The
>> state isn't doing _anything_ to the creators, it's just refusing
>> to weigh in on their side, ...
>
>The problem with this kind of naive analysis is that at some
>point in disagreements between people, the state does weigh in on
>one side or the other. If the author of a play lifts the box
>office receipts of a producer who shows the play without the
>author's permission, should the state stand by or weigh in on the
>side of the producer who is now shouting "theft." The author, of
>course, claims that the receipts rightfully are his. The author
>does not so much mind the producer demanding the receipts, as
>long as the producer cannot "call down the machinery of the state
>... to enforce [the producer's] demands."

The problem here is that the producer is not stealing the writers
work. Indeed, the play is the producers work. In this case, we have
a collaboration, -both- have created the play (which is quite a bit
more than just the scripts, the actors have collaborated as well).
And it is very uncommon for writers to finance their plays, either
the producers or investors have done that.

So yes, the writer would be stealing from the producer, the actors,
the theatre owner(s) and any investors. This is a not just a matter
of some different point of view, as near as I can tell.

>While it is very tempting to libertarians to look for the first
>introduction of state action, and while this is sometimes
>enlightening, it cannot serve as the sine qua non of political
>analysis. There has to be some prior concept of where people's
>liberties lie and when other people's actions unduly intrude on
>these.
>
>Russell

Rich

payner@netcom.com

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Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.activism
From: kuschel@ecf.toronto.edu (KUSCHEL BORIS)
Subject: Re: David Irving (what happened??)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 14:18:16 GMT
Lines: 43

In article <khan0095.735429924@nova> khan0095@nova.gmi.edu (Mohammad Razi Khan) writes:
>overman@math.ohio-state.edu (Ed Overman) writes:
>
>
>>kuschel@ecf.toronto.edu (KUSCHEL BORIS) writes:
>>>I close minded view, I think you have been watching to many Indiana Jones
>>>movies. Even before the Munich conference Hitler sent several peace proposals
>>>to Britain. These proposals were absolutely fair. Have you seen the peace
>>>proposals? I don't think so, also you would not speak in this sort of manner.
>
>>Carto gave the game away about Hitler's "piece proposals":
>> (Hitler and Chamberlain, incidentally, and contrary to the massive lies
>> told about "Munich," worked out a sensible and workable agreement at Munich
>> to save Europe from a war. In return for a free hand in the east, Hitler
>> guaranteed Chamberlain that Germany would not contest Britain's dominance
>> on the seas, or covet any of her colonies. The deal was broken by the
>> war-madness stirred up by the British press in obedience to the financial
>> power after Hitler marched on Poland - and also by pressure from Roosevelt.)
>>If Hitler would have gotten "a free hand in the east" there would have been
>>no need for war. Of course, the people who actually LIVED in the east might
>>not be too happy about it - but their main function in life was supposed to
>>be as slaves for the glorious Aryan race.
>
>>>Here is some philosphy for you:
>>>We live in a world that is trying to embrace anti-racists or non-segratory
>>>ideals. How do you now that this is the way humanity is meant to be?
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Can you prove otherwise?
<EFBFBD>

Simply, it isn't working right now, is it?
B
>Mohammad R. Khan / khan0095@nova.gmi.edu
>After July '93, please send mail to mkhan@nyx.cs.du.edu
i

Boris
>
>

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From: kuschel@ecf.toronto.edu (KUSCHEL BORIS)
Subject: Re: David Irving (what happened??)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 14:22:26 GMT
Lines: 15

In article <1r4984$7pe@netnews.alf.dec.com> harry@hershele.alf.dec.com (Harry Katz) writes:
>KUSCHEL BORIS (kuschel@ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
>
> When I get the chance I'll post Hitler's 6 odd peace proposals...
<EFBFBD>
>
>Weren't the Japanese in the middle of negotiating a peace treaty
>with the U.S. when they bombed Pearl Harbor?
No, they weren't. Even if so, Japan isn't Hitler. Read the proposals, I'm sure you will find them quite reasonable.He sent out many before the war even started, all he got was ignorance.
By the way, previous to Hiroshima, Japan had sent peace gfeelers through Russia. America knew about them and chosse to ignore them and bomb Hiroshima. Historians say int was a case of "inertia". This is because Americans couls not commit such a barbaric act, of course.
i
Boris

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Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.conspiracy,alt.evil
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: THE BIGGEST LIE
Sender: usenet@apollo.hp.com (Usenet News)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 14:33:23 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: c.ch.apollo.hp.com
Lines: 39

In article dmcaloon@tuba.calpoly.edu (David Mac, A loon) writes:

> ETHER IMPLODES 2 EARTH CORE, IS GRAVITY!!!
>
> This paper BOTH describes how heavenly bodys can be stationary,
>ether sucking structures, AND why we observe "orbital" motion!!
>
> Ether, the theoretical propogation media of electro-magnetic
>waves, was concluded not to exist, based on the results of the
>Michelson-Moreley experiment conducted a century ago.
>
> I propose that those conclusions are flawed, based on the fact
>that the experiment was designed to look for a flow parallel to the
>earth's surface, not perpindicular. (Due to the prevailing assumption
>that the earth traveled through the ether as a ball through the wind)
>
> The reversal of the that conclusion, a pivotal keystone in the
>development of modern scientific thought, could have ramifications
>of BIBLICAL proportions through out the WORLD!!
>
> REMEMBER: Einstien said Imagination is greater than knowledge!!
>
>
>1
> I dream like this: ether based reality

Etc . . .

I like to experiment with Markov Chain and other nonsense-generator
algoriths, too, but I don't usually post my results until I've
gotten more of the bugs out of the software!

---peter

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Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk,comp.admin.policy,alt.censorship,soc.college
From: kadie@eff.org (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Abstract of CAF-News 03.14
Sender: usenet@eff.org (NNTP News Poster)
Nntp-Posting-Host: eff.org
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 17:35:49 GMT
Lines: 159

[See the end of this article for information about obtaining the full
CAF-News electronically and about CAF-News in general.]

Topics discussed in CAF-News 03.14:

1-6 about "women-only" mailing lists
7-9 concern academic computing services policies
10-12 on assorted topics

Abstract of CAF-News 03.14:
[Week ending March 28, 1993
========================== KEY ================================
The words after the numbers are a short PARAPHRASES of the
articles, or QUOTES from them, NOT AN OBJECTIVE SUMMARY and not
necessarily my opinion.
===============================================================

[We desperatly need new guest (or regular) editors, for information
send email to kadie@eff.org. - Carl]

Notes 1-6 are about "women-only" mailing lists.

1. (A member of Systers, a women-only list): There are no legal
problems with maintaining a private mailing list. There may be
ethical or philosophical problems, but the lists serve an
important purpose in that they permit women to interact with one
another alone. Two reasons to exclude men are, first, that it is
already easy for women to get input from men and, second, that
women sometimes feel more comfortable communicating only with one
another.
<1993Mar23.203716.16200@wuecl.wustl.edu>

2. "How is a 'women only' group any different in principal from a
country club that excludes Jews ? How is this 'gender
verification' issue any different in principle from the NAZIs
insistance that Germans be able to prove their bloodline was
'pure' of semetic 'corruption' ?"
<1993Mar23.225959.2261@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>

3. The motivation for women-only lists is not that men are evil,
but, rather, to discuss "experiences, etc. that have a
particularly strong resonance for women. The restriction of such
groups is an attempt to filter out those who would belittle these
experiences." Other parts of the Net are self-policing; why
should not these lists be so as well?
<01GW6OBHBTN68Y53OE@carleton.edu>

4. (The author of note 1, replying to note 2): "Systers is not a
country club." So, the analogy asserted does not hold. "I have
a right to choose my own friends by whatever criteria I prefer.
As long as you have a right to correspond with your friends over
the Internet, so do I."
<1993Mar25.205412.13054@wuecl.wustl.edu>

5. (The author of note 2): "There is some point where a group of
'friends' becomes an 'organization'. Size and/or purpose of the
group are fuzzy criteria. It might be fair, under your defs, to
allow the KKK a private and exclusive internet nook if the
participants merely claimed they were nothing but a group of
'friends' socializing." Public monies should not support such
activities, they must be entirely privately funded and
maintained.
<1993Mar25.191822.2268@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>

6. "As I recall, it is not illegal to be a member of the KKK." I
establish mailing lists for my users. A "publicly-owned system
should be allowed to pro-vide such services, AS LONG AS they can
provide them equitably to all who request them. (This is roughly
akin to the common carrier law's requirement that the business
accept all proper customers.)"
<C4IEKw.92G@ms.uky.edu>

Notes 7-9 concern academic computing services policies.

7. (Carl Kadie): A "critique of the U. of Massachusetts, University
Computing Services compter use policy." "The policy address[es]
privacy, freedom of expression, and due proces. In each of these
areas, it could, I believe, be improved." References.
<1993Mar24.233258.8404@eff.org>

8. Suggests a friendly amendment to Carl Kadie's critique on the
topic of cracking programs. Notes an important disanalogy
between programs to crack and books on picking locks: "the books
won't do it for you; a computer program will."
<C4G643.4A2@ms.uky.edu>

9. "[C]omputer & network usage rules of the University of
Helsinki." In English and Finnish.
<1993Mar25.200348.3481@eff.org>

Notes 10-12 are on assorted topics.

10. Raises an analogy between the use of anonymity in public
debate on the net and wearing a mask at a public meeting or
forum. Although anonymous posting "to share explicitly personal
experiences in a protective environment" seems "desirable," "why
should anonymous postings to newsgroups of a general, public
nature be allowed or encouraged?"
<CMM-RU.1.3.733092212.psgraham@gandalf.rutgers.edu>

11. (Carl Kadie, on the posting of an anti-Muslim article): "In
the U.S., the First Amendment generally *does* extend to
advocating wholesale slaughter, murder etc., even explicitly.
Speech may not be suppressed or punished unless it is intended to
produce 'imminent lawless action' and it is 'likely to produce
such action."' Excerpts from relevant sources and annotated
references.
<1993Mar24.190446.1303@eff.org>

12. Discusses "Kiddy Porn," copyright, and the status and
maintenance of newsgroups.
<6608@blue.cis.pitt.edu>

- Bruce Umbaugh]

About CAF-News:

The abstract is for the most recent "Computers and Academic Freedom News"
(CAF-News). The full CAF-News is available via anonymous ftp or by
email. For ftp access, do an anonymous ftp to ftp.eff.org
(192.88.144.4). Get file "pub/academic/news/cafv03n14".
The full CAF-News is also available via email. Send email to
archive-server@eff.org. Include the line:

send caf-news cafv03n14

CAF-News is a weekly digest of notes from CAF-talk.

CAF-News is available as newsgroup alt.comp.acad-freedom.news or via
email. If you read newsgroups but your site doesn't get
alt.comp.acad-freedom.news, (politely) ask your sys admin to
subscribe. For info on email delivery, send email to
archive-server@eff.org. Include the line

send acad-freedom caf

Back issues of CAF-News are available via anonymous ftp or via email.
Ftp to ftp.eff.org. The directory is pub/academic/news. For
information about email access to the archive, send an email note to
archive-server@eff.org. Include the lines:

send acad-freedom README
help
index

Disclaimer: This CAF-News abstract was compiled by a guest editor or a
regular editor (Elizabeth M. Reid, Adam C. Gross, Mark C. Sheehan,
Aaron Barnhart, Leslie Regan Shade, Henry E. Hardy, Karl Barrus, Bruce
Umbaugh, Paul Joslin, or Carl M. Kadie). It is not an EFF publication.
The views an editor expresses and editorial decisions he or she makes
are his or her own.

--
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent EFF; this is just me.
=kadie@eff.org, kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

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Newsgroups: nyx.misc,alt.censorship,alt.news-media,alt.politics.media,alt.society.civil-disob,alt.society.civil-liberties,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.legal
From: mlevin@nyx.cs.du.edu (Marshall Levin)
Subject: Re: Racism at U-Penn?
Sender: usenet@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu (netnews admin account)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 93 19:17:50 GMT
Lines: 148

This is another letter from the same friend:

Well the controversey surrounding last week's theft of 14,000 copies (almost
the entire daily distribution) of the Daily Pennsylvanian is continuing
(it may even be growing a bit due to the amount of national media
attention its received and the DP's own efforts to keep the theft in the
news.) We have been covered by the Washington Post and now a syndicated
columnist who's work appears in both the Post and New York's Village Voice
wants to do his column on our situation (and use it to attack the
appointment of Penn's President Sheldon Hackney to the chairmanship of the
National Endowment for the Humanities). The Chronicle of Higher Education
is doing a story on us - they profiled Hackney (who's face was on the
cover) in this week's edition. George Will (conservative columnist and
guest on David Brinkley's Sunday morning news show) has contacted Hackney
in regards to the paper theft incident. The DP's executive editor,
Stephen Glass, has been on a live Baltimore Radio show with our attorney
discussing the case... it's all been very exciting.

Meanwhile the University's administration refuses to condemn the incident.
Hackney has said he "is in a bind" because he can't figure out how to
balance the diversity and minority rights issue (with all its b.s.
politically correct implications) with the open expression and free speech
issue. Some members of the administration blame the DP for rebuffing
efforts of The Black Community (the group that claimed responsibility for
the paper theft) and claim that if the DP had been more receptive to these
supposed offers to talk about the issue then the situation would not be so
tense. But the administration has been lied to by whichever members of The
Black Community they have been talking to - the DP, despite two editorials
calling on the leaders of The Black Community to call the DP so that a
time can be arranged to sit and talk about the alleged racism they claim
exists at the paper, have failed to contact the DP. The DP has called the
leader of the recognized African-American group on campus - the Black
Student League (BSL) - but he has not returned our phone calls.
Furthermore, the administration has refused to tell the DP which members
of th The Black Community they have been talking to. So far we officially
have no individual names connected with the organization which means no
one to negotiate or talk with (it also means that there is no one to sue).

Side note: The DP knows the names of at least a dozen individual students
involved in the thefts because they either filed official charges against
the DP for, of all things, "racially harassing" them as they attempted to
steal the papers, or beause we recognized some of the students in photos
taken of the theft. Also, four freshmen involved in the theft
inadvertently gave themselves away. The DP had received no press release
or statement from The Black Community despite assurances by the President
of the BSL to our minority affairs beat reporter that such a statement
would be forthcoming. We found out from the Philadelphia AP office that
they had received an official fax from the group. We have many friends at
the AP office in Philly (both our exec. editor and our managing editor
worked there during the summer) and as AP subscribers and contributors the
DP is entitled to any official documents the AP obtains. So the AP faxed
us the statement they had received... on it was the voice number where the
AP was to call if they had any further questions or problems with the
original fax transmission... we called it and got the names of the four
freshmen occupants of that room.
Meanwhile, a friend of mine, Jeremy Zweig (he's the DP faculty/labor/staff
reporter), had charges filed against him by an African American female
whom he followed after he observed her and two friends stealing papers on
Thursday. She called the police because he followed her for ten minutes
and the police officer at the scene refused to arrest either Zweig or the
female students (actually Zweig knew the officer responding because he had
interviewed on labor relations stories - he was head of Penn's chapter of
the Fraternal Order of Police). But one of the females filed charges of
racial harassment against Zweig with the University's Judicial Inquiry
Officer. These charges were later changed to Illegal Investigation of
Person (whatever that means). But after our attorney complained to the
University's General Counsel, all charges against Zweig were dropped.

Also, the controversy concerning the alleged case of unnecessary use of
force by a University police officer and a security guard is growing. The
guard and officer are accused of using unnecessary restraint when they
pursued a male student stealing papers and cornering him, struck him with
a miniature baton after the student appeared to resist arrest. The officer
was taken off of active duty and the security guard was suspended by the
University Police Commissioner who began a full investigation of the
incident and of several allegedly illegal "detainments" (they weren't
arrests because the Commissioner did not think taking the papers was a
crime) which occured on Thursday. He has promised that his report will be
released next week. But, members of the University's FOP expressed great
disatisfaction with the Commissioner's actions claiming that the officer
was witin his rights when he struck the student and that officers were
prepared to charge the students they detained with under at least 7
different areas of the University and local penal code, but that the
Commissioner prevented them from doing so. They claim he was being p.c.
but in doing so the Commissioner obstructed justice (these are members of
his own department). The FOP also claims the Commissioner (John
Kuprevich) has no right to conduct the type of investigation he is doing
under the stipulations of the officers' contracts. This is becoming very
political. The DP ran an article this week, which our crime reporter had
been investigating for about a month, that quotes University police
officers saying the moral within the University police department has
reached an all-time low and that they think Kuprevich is an incompetent
with "the credibility of a [used] care salesman." The DP has threatened
to sue Kuprevich if he does not arrest students if the papers are stolen
again and has questioned Kuprevich's authority to determine what is and is
not a criminal act (kuprevich still says taking large numbers of free
papers with the intention of destroying them and interrupting distribution
is not a criminal act even though the University's general counsel has
told our attorney privately that they agree with our position - publicly
they have said nothing.) Also, the University is claiming to several
national media sources that only one student was taken away during the
incident in handcuffs, while police officers are publicly saying at least
4 students were handcuffed and the DP has reports of dozens being taken
away in handcuffs.

Legal front: Although our attorney, of course, believes our case is
strong, there is a disagreement among legal scholars at law schools across
the country (we polled several for an article we ran this week on the
legality of the "theft") A constitutional law expert from Harvard said
that if the act was deemed criminal it was in no way protected under the
constitution (after all, murder with a political message is not protected
speech). But one of Harvard Law's criminal experts said she did not think
the taking of the papers was criminal and called it "a clever form of
political protest." A similar opinion came from a criminal law expert at
UCLA's law school. However, criminal law scholars at both Georgetown and
Michigan (U of M) said that so long as the papers had any "real value"
(which they clearly did in terms of advertising revenue if not in terms of
the paper they were printed on - which the Georgetown expert thought was
real value enough) then their theft was a criminal action and not
protected speech.

Stange Bedfellows: If war makes strange bedfellows, then so does freedom of
speech cases (a bit like the ACLU and the American Nazi Party in the
Skokie case). We at the DP have been flooded with letters of both
criticism and support from various members of the University community,
West Philly area residents, and University alumnae across the country.
Some of the supportive letters and phone calls we get have had clearly
racist overtones. People have called and said that "the blackies" who
stole the paper should "lose their scholarships," assuming that the only
way black students can attend a private institution like Penn is through
scholarship money. Gregory Pavlik (the ultra-conservative columnist who's
columns ignited the original controversy) has received letters of support
from several fellow right-wingers and libertarians and is rumored
(although I can't confirm this around the office and its something the
editors wouldn't want to say if they knew it was true for PR reasons) has even
received a personal letter of support from the Philadelphia chapter of the
KKK. Those of us who answer the phone have been appalled by these
statments and letters (the same way many of us were appalled by Pavlik's
columns - but he still has a right to his opinion) but we have been
careful to remain neutral. We don't want to get entrapped by the party on
the other end of the phone into saying anything that might later be
construed as either racist (which could be used to prove racism at the
paper in any further legal action or University proceeding) or against
those who are offering their support of us and our right to free speech
and open expression.

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From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Not a Boomer)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 22 Apr 93 15:50:33 EST
Distribution: usa
Lines: 83

In article <1993Apr21.075158.10228@anasazi.com>, karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:
> In article <1993Apr11.191423.53029@gmuvax.gmu.edu> scoile@mason1.gmu.edu (Elioc S. Nevets) writes:
>>[...]
>>>>1) Some porn causes harm.
>>
>>I do not believe that pornography "causes" harm. Pornography may be an
>>indirect result of harm (e. g. "kiddie porn"), or may express stories
>>which inflict harm if implemented, but I cannot understand how
>>pornography can cause harm any more than any other printed work. Sane
>>people do not spontaneously discard their morals at the behest of a
>>magazine or movie -- the disposition must exist prior to the exposure,
>
> No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
> time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
> continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.

How so? Concentration camp guards got other prisoners to do the dirty
work when they could no longer stomache it. You'd think they wouldn't mind if
continuous exposure eroded morals, eh?

In addition, why should nudity/sex erode "morals"? What is immoral
about naked people and sex?

>>and that disposition may come from many, many sources. Attempting to
>>ban "free expression" because it might insite a minority of people who
>
> pornography has as much to do with "free expression" as owning nuclear
> weapons has to do the the right to keep and bear arms.

There's a difference between limiting without infringing and banning.

>>are predisposed to such behavior anyway is wrong. We might as well ban
>>the Bible, since there are numerous examples of Christian fanatics who
>>believe they have the Devine Right to impose their values on others, to
>>the detriment or even destruction of others. Obviously, the Bible has
>>the ability to insite people to harm others.
>>
> Well, our founding fathers recognized that the good that comes from religion
> in general, and the Bible in particular, so far outweights the bad that they
> protected religious freedom in the first amendment. Pornography never has
> had such protection. I'd like to say "and never will", but given the current
> occupants of the White House, that may be overly optimistic.

Actually "pornography" has been around only slightly less longer than
the written word (picture/hieroglyph).

>...

[You know the argument is degenerating when people start comparing
their debate opponents to Hitler :)]

> Long before Hitler started slaughtering the Jews, there was a systematic
> attack against their humanity. Now clearly any "sane" person, even in
> 1930's Germany, had to believe Jews were human. But eventually they were

Not at all. Jews were harassed for centuries. Ask the Catholic Church
when it finally changed it's view that they killed Christ.
(Hint: it wasn't that long ago.)

...
> women and children in this society. However, it does poignantly illustrate
> how easily we can become desensitized to what would naturally offend us.

The words "naturally offend" is key. If it offends, surely see it
happen over and over doesn't make it less offensive.
I think you are confusing helplessness with consent. People can feel
"there's nothing we can do" without approving.

> Just look at the level of violence - no, make that savagery - rampant in
> our society. Pornography clearly has no redeeming social value (a standard
> I find far too lax, but which, nonetheless, makes the point) and does not
> deserve to be tolerated.

If it was your intent to link pornography with violence simply by
putting those two sentances next to each other, you failed.

You also seem to ignore the magazines/etc that feature men "naked and
spread-eagled".

Brett
________________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an
intellectual conviction." Sean O'Casey in _The White Plague_ by Frank Herbert.

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From: worden@bouncer.nsc.com (Dennis Worden)
Subject: Re: Racism at U-Penn?
Sender: worden@bouncer (Dennis Worden)
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 17:54:27 GMT

Very interesting article about the theft of DP papers. Early this year
we in the San Francicso Bay Area were treated to a different version of
this theft of free papers. A free Gay newspaper published a very negative
article (along with a very derogatory drawing) about the San Francisco Police
Chief. The Police Chief apparently made a few select comments to some
officers, and the result was that most (but not all) of the newspapers were
collected by several police officers. After all the hulibalu settled down,
San Francicso had a new Police Chief. In fact, the old chief wasn't even
given a chance to resign, he was specifically fired. The difference was
that after more than 20 years of otherwise exemptlary service he lost any
and all pension and benefits.

Contrast this with a group that steals (apparently violently) all copies
of a (reportly) balanced publication and threatens more civil disobedience
because they don't like someone's opinions. The legal authorities seem
afraid or unwilling to enforce the First Admendment by taking action against
the group. It sure looks like the application of the law depends upon
which political group is on what side of an issue, rather than on the merits
of that issue.

--
Dennis Worden, not representing $ When the TEAM succeeds, you succeed,
anybody, not even himself, in $ but when the Team fails, you're FIRED.
any way shape or form. $ Don't EMAIL me at worden@berlioz.nsc.com

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From: karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 14:43:30 GMT
Sender: usenet@anasazi.com (Usenet News)
Lines: 93

In article <C5v598.97E@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) writes:
>karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:
>
>[...]
>>No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
>>time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
>>continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.
>
>== Excerpt ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/civil-liberty/artistic-freedom.aclu ==
>[From the ACLU briefing paper on artistic freedom, comments follow]
>---
>But don't obscene and pornographic works cause anti-social and even
>violent behavior?
>---
>
>No direct link between exposure to sexually explicit material and
>anti-social behavior or sexual violence has ever been scientifically
>established. In 1967, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed a panel
>of experts to examine this issue. But after three years of extensive
>research, the National Commission on Obscenity and Pornography found
>no convincing evidence of a causal connection.

No direct link between smoking and cancer has ever been scientifically
established - The American Tobacco Institute.

That's somewhat tongue in cheek, but not completely. Such links cannot
be established because of ethical limits to human experimentation. At best,
a correlation - which does not establish causation - can be demonstrated.

>Social scientists believe that while a troubled upbringing and
>alcoholism appear to be strongly linked to sexual violence, it is
>virtually impossible to demonstrate that such violence is caused by
>pornography. In any case, violent criminals often claim to be
>inspired by nonpornographic material. Serial killer Theodore Bundy
>collected cheerleader magazines. John Hinckley stalked President
>Reagan after seeing the renowned film "Taxi Driver." And several mass
>murderers claimed to have been inspired by passages in the Bible. As
>these examples suggest, blaming books or films for the acts of
>disturbed individuals is a simplistic approach that could destroy
>freedom without deterring crime at all.
>===========================================
>

Funny, people of the same political persuasion (i.e., liberals) that deny
the link between pornography and violence, adamantly maintain there is
such a link between children being exposed to violence on television and
their subsequent violent behavior.

That's the trouble with so-called "social science" - in addition to the
aforementioned limitations on human experimentation, there's a lot more
politics in it than there is science.

>The lesson you draw from Hitler is that government should be given
>authority to supress material that it says "has no redeeming social
>value". I draw the opposite lesson.

Not at all - read my post again, objectively. The lesson I draw from
Hitler is that a systematic attack on the humanity of any group of people
can, over time, cause others (consciously or subconsciously) to classify
them as somehow sub-human and setting them up for abuse. It's even easier
if one plays on already existing biases against the group. Abuse of slaves,
prisoners of war, etc., are also examples of this. And it matters not
whether such attacks come from the government or private individuals.

I will say that I do believe society has a right to suppress material that
has no redeeming social value if, in addition, it causes demonstrable harm
and it is not merely a way for the majority to oppress a legitimate minority.
(How do you feel about second-hand smoke?)

[ rulings of freedom of speech issues involving political speech deleted ]

And that's the point - the First Amendment was instituted to protect the
free exchange of IDEAS. We can engage in a debate about the merits or
lack of merits of pornography as much as we want. You can attempt to
persuade me, I can attempt to persuade you. And any one else can
"listen." How does banning pornography prevent any debate?

The question comes down to what kind of society we want and how much
civility we are willing to give up in the name of - not liberty - but
libertinism. I do not want the society I am a part of to treat the
display of women and children being raped, tortured, and otherwise
abused as a protected form of expression so that some men may more
easily obtain erections.

But, in the end, I fear your side will win out. We have seen a continuous
trend toward taking the Constitution to extreme interpretations that
were never intended. Hell, if the same thing had been done with the
Second Amendment, I (or the since departed Branch Davidians) would have
the right to possess nuclear weapons. Well, maybe just conventional
bombs, but nuclear weapons would be on the horizon (and just in time -
there are lots up for sale now.)

Karl Dussik

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From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:53:07 GMT
Lines: 55

karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

[...]
>And that's the point - the First Amendment was instituted to protect the
>free exchange of IDEAS.

Did I misread you? I thought you wanted a government ban on sexual
expression *because* of its bad IDEAS? Which is it? No ideas or bad
ideas? It can't be both.

In any case, the First Amendment was instituted for more than one reason.

== Excerpt ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/civil-liberty/freedom-of-expression.aclu ==
First, freedom of expression is the foundation of self-fulfillment.
Self-expression enables an individual to realize his or her full potential
as a human being. The right of individuals to express their thoughts,
desires, and aspirations, and to communicate freely with others, affirms
the dignity and worth of each and every member of society. Thus, freedom
of expression is an end in itself and should not be subordinated to any
other goals of society.

Second, freedom of expression is vital to the attainment and advancement
of knowledge. The eminent 19th century civil libertarian, John Stuart
Mill, contended that enlightened judgment is possible only if one
considers all facts and ideas, from whatever source, and tests one's own
conclusions against opposing views. But the right to express oneself is
not conditioned on the content of one's views, which may be true or false,
"good" or "bad," socially useful or harmful. All points of view should be
represented in the "marketplace of ideas" so that society can benefit from
debate about their worth.

Third, freedom of expression is necessary to our system of
self-government. If the American people are to be truly sovereign, the
masters of their fate and of their elected government, they must be
well-informed. They must have access to all information, ideas and points
of view. The precondition for a free society is an informed and
enlightened citizenry. Tyrannies thrive on mass ignorance.

Fourth, freedom of expression provides a "check" against possible
government corruption and excess, which seem to be permanent features of
the human condition.

Restrictions on freedom of speech always authorize the government to
decide how, and against whom, the restrictions should apply. The more
authority the government has, the more it will use that authority to
suppress unpopular minorities, criticism and dissent. Because freedom of
expression is so basic to a free society, the ACLU believes that it should
_never_ be abridged by the government.
==End Excerpt==============================

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
= kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

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From: cosell@world.std.com (Bernie Cosell)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Sender: cosell@world.std.com (Bernie Cosell)
Reply-To: cosell@world.std.com
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 02:25:11 GMT
Lines: 43

In article <1993Apr22.144330.5573@anasazi.com>, Karl Dussik writes:

} In article <C5v598.97E@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) writes:

} >Social scientists believe that while a troubled upbringing and
} >alcoholism appear to be strongly linked to sexual violence, it is
} >virtually impossible to demonstrate that such violence is caused by
} >pornography. In any case, violent criminals often claim to be
} >inspired by nonpornographic material. Serial killer Theodore Bundy
} >collected cheerleader magazines. John Hinckley stalked President
} >Reagan after seeing the renowned film "Taxi Driver." And several mass
} >murderers claimed to have been inspired by passages in the Bible. As
} >these examples suggest, blaming books or films for the acts of
} >disturbed individuals is a simplistic approach that could destroy
} >freedom without deterring crime at all.
} >===========================================
} >
}
} Funny, people of the same political persuasion (i.e., liberals) that deny
} the link between pornography and violence, adamantly maintain there is
} such a link between children being exposed to violence on television and
} their subsequent violent behavior.

Funny how some people can't tell the difference between factors
that affect an adult's behavior and those that affect a child's in
their developmental years. But did I misread Carl's note --- did
he say something about children and television in some part of his
posting that you elided, or are you just making up statements so
you can argue with yourself??

} ... I will say that I do believe society has a right to suppress material that
} has no redeeming social value if, in addition, it causes demonstrable harm
} and it is not merely a way for the majority to oppress a legitimate minority.

And I assume [although you admitted earlier in your posting the lack of
actual evidence and ignored Carl's comments about evidence to the contrary]
that you believe that pornography causes "demonstrable" harm?

/Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell cosell@world.std.com
Fantasy Farm Fibers, Pearisburg, VA (703) 921-2358

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From: acbonin@unix.amherst.edu (Adam Bonin)
Subject: Re: Racism at U-Penn?
Followup-To: nyx.misc,alt.censorship,alt.news-media,alt.politics.media,alt.society.civil-disob,alt.society.civil-liberties,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.legal
Sender: news@unix.amherst.edu (No News is Good News)
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 13:38:39 GMT
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As an editor with the Amherst Student, two things need be said:

o We weren't the ones who were taken over last year--that was the UMass Daily
Collegian. On the other hand, copies of our April Fools' issue were deemed
by the athletic department to be too harsh in their humour and were removed
from the athletic complex.

o Hang in there, DP'ers. We're right behind you.
-adam
----
Adam Bonin '94
Amherst College
acbonin@amherst.edu

Selection from the Bob Dylan Baseball Abstract, Village Voice 4/7/93:
"Mets: Once upon a time you played so fine, you threw away Dykstra before his
prime, didn't you? People'd say, 'Beware of Cone, he's bound to roam,' you
thought they were all kiddin' you. You used to laugh about, the Strawberry that
was headin' out. Now you don't talk so loud. Now you don't seem so proud. About
having to shop Coleman for your next deal."
"Expos: You don't need a Wetteland to know which way the wind blows."

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From: robert@informix.com (Robert Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 22 Apr 93 23:38:21 GMT
Sender: news@informix.com (Usenet News)
Distribution: usa
Lines: 105

karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>In article <1993Apr11.191423.53029@gmuvax.gmu.edu> scoile@mason1.gmu.edu (Elioc S. Nevets) writes:
>>[...]
>>>>1) Some porn causes harm.
>>
>>I do not believe that pornography "causes" harm. Pornography may be an
>>indirect result of harm (e. g. "kiddie porn"), or may express stories
>>which inflict harm if implemented, but I cannot understand how
>>pornography can cause harm any more than any other printed work. Sane
>>people do not spontaneously discard their morals at the behest of a
>>magazine or movie -- the disposition must exist prior to the exposure,

>No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
>time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
>continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.

Whoops. I'm not sure I understand. Continuous exposure to
pornography can erode morals against being exposed to pornography? (Didn't
happen with the Meese Commission! :-) ) Exposure to bodies locked in
sexual positions erodes morals concerning rape? Murder? Stepping on ants?

>>are predisposed to such behavior anyway is wrong. We might as well ban
>>the Bible, since there are numerous examples of Christian fanatics who
>>believe they have the Devine Right to impose their values on others, to
>>the detriment or even destruction of others. Obviously, the Bible has
>>the ability to insite people to harm others.
>>

>Well, our founding fathers recognized that the good that comes from religion
>in general, and the Bible in particular, so far outweights the bad that they
>protected religious freedom in the first amendment. Pornography never has
>had such protection. I'd like to say "and never will", but given the current
>occupants of the White House, that may be overly optimistic.

Actually, the founding fathers protected religion (and *all* religion)
because they recognized the evils of the religious persecution (high on their
minds, since it was a primary catalyst of the colonization). I think it might
be a little hard to determine if they evaluated all existing religions to
determine if they each had an element of good that outweighs the bad.

Satanism, in fact, is covered by our constitutional religion
protections.. Maybe you'd like to make a case that it contributes more good
than evil? :-)

>>*Has* child pornography been "shown to cause harm"? To whom does it
>>cause harm, once created? I make no attempt to argue that minors are
>>capable of making an informed, responsible decision regarding their
>>participation, nor am I saying there is nothing wrong with using
>>children for pornographic purposes. I'm curious about what arguments
>>can be made supporting the assertion that child pornography harms or
>>insites the viewer.
>>

>So you contend that the Bible, which has good intent, can incite people
>to harm others, but porn, which has - certainly not good - intent, cannot
>incite people to harm others?

No, he contends that if you imagine that pornography can cause harm,
and should be therefore banned, that you would certainly have to extend that
thinking to the Bible...which has "strongly correlated" with it such
atrocities as the Crusades, the witchcraft burnings, and the Inquisition...
regardless of the *intent* of the book.

>>
>>Some pornography glorifies women. Some pictures in Life objectifies
>>
>>In the matter of consentual pornography, there is no direct threat to
>>the common good. Each person involved is making an individual choice,
>>and that choice affects only those who chose to participate in the
>>additional creation, distribution, and consumption of pornography. I do
>>not believe the argument that pornography destructively degrades women,
>>or that it encourages child molesters or rapists to commit their crimes,
>>has enough merit to support a ban on it.
>>
>>-Steve Coile

>This is not to say that there is any such conspiracy against
>women and children in this society. However, it does poignantly illustrate
>how easily we can become desensitized to what would naturally offend us.
>Just look at the level of violence - no, make that savagery - rampant in
>our society. Pornography clearly has no redeeming social value (a standard
>I find far too lax, but which, nonetheless, makes the point) and does not
>deserve to be tolerated.

"Clearly has no redeeming social value"? Well, the only
well-documented real life study of the effects of legalization, which took
place in Denmark, showed a substantial decrease in certain kinds of sex crimes,
such as child abuse, without any increase in other crimes such as rape.
It's also noticable that rape rates have been dropping in the US for the last
20 years...a time period that most people might have noticed included a vast
increase in the distribution of pornography.

I think you're going to have to define "clearly" a little better. Two
U.S. commissions have failed to come to "clearly" conclusion, even when one
was packed to be biased by the previous administration (and amusingly, all of
the women walked out of the second commission, because they were embarrassed by
the obvious pre-existing bias of the remaining members!). How is it that you
see so much clearly than everyone else, and based on what evidence?
Robert C.
--
----------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.

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From: robert@informix.com (Robert Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 23 Apr 93 21:21:03 GMT
Sender: news@informix.com (Usenet News)
Distribution: usa
Lines: 140

karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>In article <C5v598.97E@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) writes:
>>karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:
>>
>>[...]
>>>No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
>>>time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
>>>continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.
>>
>>== Excerpt ftp.eff.org:pub/academic/civil-liberty/artistic-freedom.aclu ==
>>[From the ACLU briefing paper on artistic freedom, comments follow]
>>---
>>But don't obscene and pornographic works cause anti-social and even
>>violent behavior?
>>---
>>
>>No direct link between exposure to sexually explicit material and
>>anti-social behavior or sexual violence has ever been scientifically
>>established. In 1967, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed a panel
>>of experts to examine this issue. But after three years of extensive
>>research, the National Commission on Obscenity and Pornography found
>>no convincing evidence of a causal connection.

>No direct link between smoking and cancer has ever been scientifically
>established - The American Tobacco Institute.

>That's somewhat tongue in cheek, but not completely. Such links cannot
>be established because of ethical limits to human experimentation. At best,
>a correlation - which does not establish causation - can be demonstrated.

Not true, actually, in the case of pornography. Many, many studies
have been done in an attempt to establish a causation, usually by exposing
groups to pornography and measuring indications of attitude change or increased
"violent" behavior. Results vary, but the vast majority of results find no
causitive connection between pornography and violence.
Now, several studies found causitive effects for *violent*
pornography and violence. However, the subset of those studies that followed
through to isolate whether it was the violence or the pornography that had
the effect found that *violence* was the important component. In fact, when
the Meese commission tried to use the results of one of these studies to
prove their thesis that pornography was harmful, the scientists who ran the
study made a public announcement that their study was misinterpreted; that
they had shown it was the "violence" component that mattered.

I suggest you read "Elicitation of Violence" by F.M Christensen, which
can be found in the book "Pornography: The Other Side". It's a thorough
overview of the state of studies concerning pornography, both statistical
analyses and experimental studies.

>>Social scientists believe that while a troubled upbringing and
>>alcoholism appear to be strongly linked to sexual violence, it is
>>virtually impossible to demonstrate that such violence is caused by
>>pornography. In any case, violent criminals often claim to be
>>inspired by nonpornographic material. Serial killer Theodore Bundy
>>collected cheerleader magazines. John Hinckley stalked President
>>Reagan after seeing the renowned film "Taxi Driver." And several mass
>>murderers claimed to have been inspired by passages in the Bible. As
>>these examples suggest, blaming books or films for the acts of
>>disturbed individuals is a simplistic approach that could destroy
>>freedom without deterring crime at all.
>>===========================================
>>

>Funny, people of the same political persuasion (i.e., liberals) that deny
>the link between pornography and violence, adamantly maintain there is
>such a link between children being exposed to violence on television and
>their subsequent violent behavior.

Perhaps they've reviewed the evidence? Or maybe they're just thinking
logically; if watching violence might begat violence, then watching sex might
begat...sex, actually. Horrors. Where does "watching sex begats violence"
fit in? Could we reasonably consider the idea, then, that "watching
violence begats sex"?

>I will say that I do believe society has a right to suppress material that
>has no redeeming social value if, in addition, it causes demonstrable harm
>and it is not merely a way for the majority to oppress a legitimate minority.
>(How do you feel about second-hand smoke?)

Ah, I *like* that! So, *demonstrate* the harm that pornography
causes! As I mentioned, scientists have been unable to do so, though they've
tried. Y'know, if it's as clear and obvious as you seem to think it is, it
surely should be *easily* demonstrable. Tell you what: we'll ask for some
volunteers, and you demonstrate how you can make them violent by exposing them
to pornography. I assure you, there is a large group of social scientists
who would be fascinated by your results! :-)

>[ rulings of freedom of speech issues involving political speech deleted ]

>And that's the point - the First Amendment was instituted to protect the
>free exchange of IDEAS. We can engage in a debate about the merits or
>lack of merits of pornography as much as we want. You can attempt to
>persuade me, I can attempt to persuade you. And any one else can
>"listen." How does banning pornography prevent any debate?

Ideas are not always exchanged via debate. One would have a little
trouble learning anything from, say, an education video if it were necessary to
be able to talk back in order to learn.

>The question comes down to what kind of society we want and how much
>civility we are willing to give up in the name of - not liberty - but
>libertinism. I do not want the society I am a part of to treat the
>display of women and children being raped, tortured, and otherwise
>abused as a protected form of expression so that some men may more
>easily obtain erections.

My. Firstly, any form of child pornography is already illegal, so
that's a total red herring. Really good for pumping up those "outraged"
juices, though.
Secondly, depictions of rape are not, to my knowledge, actually
illegal; but they are exceedingly rare. I'll make a challenge to you that
I've made before, on the net, that apparently no one has seen fit to take up.
Go off to your local video store. Randomly rent some adult movies.
Find three examples of depictions of rape in different tapes; tell us how
much you spent. You might consider putting a limit on your spending, though,
to make sure you don't go through your life savings.
If you really want to find depictions of rape, it makes far more sense
to randomly rent R-rated action videos...
You are right that there is a subset of material that shows women being
tortured (although combining explicit *sex* with these depictions *is
illegal*, which makes it's definition as pornography a little problematic;
is it pornography if there's no sex?). I'd guess roughly 65% of this
material is woman torturing woman. Of course, there's also a subset that
shows men being tortured by women. Somehow, that version of the material
receives very little attention. Not important when men get tortured, I guess.

I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas of the normal contents of
pornography, but I think if you really want to condemn it, you should do some
research instead of taking other people's words for it...including my word.
That's the difference, I'll bet, between myself and whoever you're getting
your ideas from; I'm not afraid to have you find out the facts for yourself.
Do they encourage you to just listen to them, or do they encourage you to
find out for yourself?

Robert C.
--
----------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.

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From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Not a Boomer)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 23 Apr 93 18:09:56 EST
Distribution: usa
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In article <1993Apr22.144330.5573@anasazi.com>, karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:
...
>>murderers claimed to have been inspired by passages in the Bible. As
>>these examples suggest, blaming books or films for the acts of
>>disturbed individuals is a simplistic approach that could destroy
>>freedom without deterring crime at all.
>>===========================================
>>
>
> Funny, people of the same political persuasion (i.e., liberals) that deny

Mmmm, I believe many liberals are mounting anti-pornography campaigns
under the banner of "exploitation of women".

> the link between pornography and violence, adamantly maintain there is
> such a link between children being exposed to violence on television and
> their subsequent violent behavior.
>
> That's the trouble with so-called "social science" - in addition to the
> aforementioned limitations on human experimentation, there's a lot more
> politics in it than there is science.

True, true. It doesn't help that the things being studied can change
their behavior at will.
When was the last time you saw an electron decide to spin the other
way?
:)

...
> [ rulings of freedom of speech issues involving political speech deleted ]
>
> And that's the point - the First Amendment was instituted to protect the
> free exchange of IDEAS. We can engage in a debate about the merits or
> lack of merits of pornography as much as we want. You can attempt to
> persuade me, I can attempt to persuade you. And any one else can
> "listen." How does banning pornography prevent any debate?

It prevents the ideas of human sexuality from even being presented,
much less "debated".

> The question comes down to what kind of society we want and how much
> civility we are willing to give up in the name of - not liberty - but
> libertinism. I do not want the society I am a part of to treat the
> display of women and children being raped, tortured, and otherwise
> abused as a protected form of expression so that some men may more
> easily obtain erections.

Rape, torture, child abuse, etc. is not mainstream pornography. Such
things are illegal, and for good reason. Attempting to link all pornography
with such things makes you no better than the authors of the Oregon 9
initiative.

> But, in the end, I fear your side will win out. We have seen a continuous
> trend toward taking the Constitution to extreme interpretations that
> were never intended. Hell, if the same thing had been done with the
> Second Amendment, I (or the since departed Branch Davidians) would have
> the right to possess nuclear weapons. Well, maybe just conventional
> bombs, but nuclear weapons would be on the horizon (and just in time -
> there are lots up for sale now.)

The Constitution was meant to place such power with the people. The
State is a proven abuser of such power. Better to try it with the power in
the hands of the people this time.

And you'll notice the Branch Dividians bothered no one, and did not
fire until fired upon.

The BATF/FBI can't say the same thing at this point. Is your home RICO
proof?

Brett
________________________________________________________________________________
"There's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an
intellectual conviction." Sean O'Casey in _The White Plague_ by Frank Herbert.

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From: rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 23 Apr 93 20:59:07 GMT
Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU
Distribution: usa
Lines: 29

In article <1993Apr21.075158.10228@anasazi.com> karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>our society. Pornography clearly has no redeeming social value (a standard
>I find far too lax, but which, nonetheless, makes the point) and does not
>deserve to be tolerated.
>
>Karl Dussik, speaking in favor of some much needed civility.

Karl, I have decided that you have no redeeming social value--a standard
which is far too lax--and that you do not deserve to be tolerated. Your
posting could obviously inspire someone to violence, and as proof, Ill
state that since you wrote this post, people have been killed. Therefore,
obvioulsy, your post causes murder, and I am asking that a warrant be
sworn out for your arrest.

Do soap operas have redeeming social value?
Game shows?

Who the fuck CARES what YOU think DESERVES to be tolerated.
I would point you toward the Soviet Union, where you could get a
good job deciding what deserves to be tolerated, but since it
has disintegrated, you will have to look elsewhere. Singapore,
maybe? Iran?

--
Amendment 9, US Constitution:
The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not
be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

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From: rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 23 Apr 93 21:06:35 GMT
Sender: usenet@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU
Distribution: usa
Lines: 19

In article <1993Apr22.144330.5573@anasazi.com> karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>But, in the end, I fear your side will win out. We have seen a continuous
>trend toward taking the Constitution to extreme interpretations that
>were never intended.

Karl, the Bill of Rights was never intended to be interpreted narrowly.
It was intended to be a PARTIAL listing of rights. See my .sig, which
today happens to Amendment 9. This admendment CLEARLY states that the
BoR is NOT to be interpreted narrowly, but is meant as a broad protection
of individual rights.
Or do you bear Amendment 9 the same hostility you bear the first?

--
Amendment 9, US Constitution:
The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not
be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

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From: jstanley@uafhp..uark.edu (Michael Stanley)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 24 Apr 1993 13:22:26 GMT
Lines: 102
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: uafhp.uark.edu

demon@desire.wright.edu (Not a Boomer) writes:

> Mmmm, I believe many liberals are mounting anti-pornography campaigns
>under the banner of "exploitation of women".

And many conservatives fight against pornography for this and other reasons
as well. This is not just a liberal issue and calling it one is quite
misleading. Another large number of liberals fight for freedom of
expression and against censorship.

>In article <1993Apr22.144330.5573@anasazi.com>, karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:
>> the link between pornography and violence, adamantly maintain there is
>> such a link between children being exposed to violence on television and
>> their subsequent violent behavior.

I agree that too much TV has an unhealthy effect on children. Quite
simply, children are socialized in their youth. If they spend an
inordinate amount of time watching tv, then the shows that are on
tv serve as a large amount of the socialization process. And the
children come to some degree to think of what they see on tv as the
norm (not completely. even children can separate a lot of fantasy from
reality on tv). However, like cops who see too many murders and slowly
become used to it, children can become overly tolerant of that which
our society used to be shocked at once.

But the answer is not censorship. The answer is parents in the home
spending more time with their kids as opposed to letting them learn from
the tv. Parents can select tv viewing as well as teach their kids to
screen their own tv as well as understand what is and isn't right.

>> And that's the point - the First Amendment was instituted to protect the
>> free exchange of IDEAS. We can engage in a debate about the merits or
>> lack of merits of pornography as much as we want. You can attempt to
>> persuade me, I can attempt to persuade you. And any one else can
>> "listen." How does banning pornography prevent any debate?

No, that's a very naive view of the first amendment. The first
amendment is about freedome of not only expression but ideas as well.
Its about who has the right to decide which ideas are good and which
are not.

As I've already said. The answer is not censorship. Its education.

> It prevents the ideas of human sexuality from even being presented,
>much less "debated".

>> The question comes down to what kind of society we want and how much
>> civility we are willing to give up in the name of - not liberty - but
>> libertinism. I do not want the society I am a part of to treat the
>> display of women and children being raped, tortured, and otherwise
>> abused as a protected form of expression so that some men may more
>> easily obtain erections.

Its a hard decision for me to come to, but I believe that people can
indulge in fantasy without ever bringing that into their real lives.
Fantasy is not by itself harmful.

And with proper education, I think that their will be less of a call for
some of the less wholesome shows (I'm sure my definition of wholesome
is different from yours).

> Rape, torture, child abuse, etc. is not mainstream pornography. Such
>things are illegal, and for good reason. Attempting to link all pornography
>with such things makes you no better than the authors of the Oregon 9
>initiative.

>> But, in the end, I fear your side will win out. We have seen a continuous
>> trend toward taking the Constitution to extreme interpretations that
>> were never intended. Hell, if the same thing had been done with the

True, but hopefully this time we will stop that from happening and you
won't be able to ban pornography or erotica.

>> Second Amendment, I (or the since departed Branch Davidians) would have
>> the right to possess nuclear weapons. Well, maybe just conventional

Yes, just as you take one side of an issue to an extreme, this example
would be taking it to the other extreme.

Its interesting to note that those who take extreme viewpoints always
see themselves as what moderate SHOULD be.

> The Constitution was meant to place such power with the people. The
>State is a proven abuser of such power. Better to try it with the power in
>the hands of the people this time.

The state is the best way of preventing power abuse, and that's why the
people have to keep a close watch on the state.

> And you'll notice the Branch Dividians bothered no one, and did not
>fire until fired upon.

Well, we don't KNOW whether they bothered anyone do we? There have been
all kinds of allegations and none have been proven one way or the other.
We don't know why the state acted in this case. The statement just made
is a statement made without all the facts. It may or may not be correct.

But if some of the claims are correct, I definitely consider child abuse
as bothering someone.

Michael

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From: jstanley@uafhp..uark.edu (Michael Stanley)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 24 Apr 1993 13:33:58 GMT
Lines: 51
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: uafhp.uark.edu

>>our society. Pornography clearly has no redeeming social value (a standard
>>I find far too lax, but which, nonetheless, makes the point) and does not
>>deserve to be tolerated.

Well, I don't know if `fun' can be considered a redeeming social value
but I think its sufficient justification. Anything one watches can be
harmful without the proper socialization and education to screen it in
a healthy way. But with good education and socialization, I think that
pornograpy is a good thing.

And I think that if it were more accepted, it would slowly improve in
quality as well. More talented people would get involve and we might
start seeing some of what you might even call socially redeeming.

Most pornography has childish plots and is often boring. But with talented
people working in the field, we mi might start finding more complex plots with
interesting stories. And as our country is so horribly victorian and
sexually immature, we could use erotic media written by good people.

>>Karl Dussik, speaking in favor of some much needed civility.

>posting could obviously inspire someone to violence, and as proof, Ill
>state that since you wrote this post, people have been killed. Therefore,
>obvioulsy, your post causes murder, and I am asking that a warrant be
>sworn out for your arrest.

Erotica and pornography do not lead to violence. Lack of education and
good socialization does.

>Do soap operas have redeeming social value?
>Game shows?

>Who the fuck CARES what YOU think DESERVES to be tolerated.
>I would point you toward the Soviet Union, where you could get a
>good job deciding what deserves to be tolerated, but since it
>has disintegrated, you will have to look elsewhere. Singapore,
>maybe? Iran?

I don't know. Intolerance has in many countries led to oppressive
governments. I don't think that intolerance of pornography would
suddenly lead to an oprressive U.S. However, its defenitely a step
down that road. Iran has an extremely religious oppresive government.
And their government wasn't always like that. A friend of mine from
that country says he doesn't like going back there these days. He can't
believe how much its changed.

>Amendment 9, US Constitution:
>The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not
>be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Michael

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From: jstanley@uafhp..uark.edu (Michael Stanley)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 24 Apr 1993 13:41:39 GMT
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robert@informix.com (Robert Coleman) writes:

>karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>>In article <C5v598.97E@cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie) writes:
>>>karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:
>>>
>>>[...]
>>>>No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
>>>>time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
>>>>continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.

Erode? :) Speak for yourself here. My morals were well taught and
they don't just ``erode''. They do change over time, but slowly and
logically.

>>That's somewhat tongue in cheek, but not completely. Such links cannot
>>be established because of ethical limits to human experimentation. At best,
>>a correlation - which does not establish causation - can be demonstrated.

However, even if a correlation has been established (and I don't think
a valid one has yet), I would argue that education is the answer. not
censorship.

>>Funny, people of the same political persuasion (i.e., liberals) that deny
>>the link between pornography and violence, adamantly maintain there is
>>such a link between children being exposed to violence on television and
>>their subsequent violent behavior.

I don't know about that, but a link is not necessarily the only cause,
and not all causes are wrong. Killing everyone out of hand that has
ever committed a crime certainly would curb crime. However its not a good
solution. I think the same thing applies here. Education is the answer
-- not censorship.
>>I will say that I do believe society has a right to suppress material that
>>has no redeeming social value if, in addition, it causes demonstrable harm
>>and it is not merely a way for the majority to oppress a legitimate minority.
>>(How do you feel about second-hand smoke?)

As I just said, I'm not convinced that pornography is the harmful agent
here. I think its lack of good education and exposing children to
material before they have the education and socialization to deal with
it well.

Michael

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From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 24 Apr 93 16:46:05 GMT
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In-reply-to: karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik)

In article <1993Apr22.144330.5573@anasazi.com>,
karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) said:

> The question comes down to what kind of society we want and how much
> civility we are willing to give up in the name of - not liberty - but
> libertinism. I do not want the society I am a part of to treat the
> display of women and children being raped, tortured, and otherwise
> abused as a protected form of expression so that some men may more
> easily obtain erections.

One simple question, Karl: Why the fuck should what you want be
controlling over people who want something else?

-- William December Starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu>

P.S.: I'd rather have freedom than civility. And I'd rather have
justice than peace. How about you, Karl?

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From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism,misc.legal,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Date: 24 Apr 1993 17:01:02 GMT
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In-reply-to: karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik)

In article <1993Apr21.075158.10228@anasazi.com>,
karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) said:

> No - not spontaneously due to _a_ magazine or _a_ movie, just like one
> time drug use probably does not lead to addiction, but repeated or
> continuous exposure can erode whatever morals may have been present.

So what you're saying is that pornography, as speech, tends to persuade
people over time to embrace ideas which you happen to dislike. Okay.
(Still not a reason to ban it, though.) But then you say:
> pornography has as much to do with "free expression" as owning nuclear
> weapons has to do the the right to keep and bear arms.

How can you in one breath say that you personally dislike pornography
because people who use it tend to be persuaded, over time, to embrace
ideas and doctrines which you don't like, and then in the next breath
say that it has nothing to do with freedom of expression? I thought
that you thought that freedom of expression was all about the free
promulgation of ideas...

> Long before Hitler started slaughtering the Jews, there was a
> systematic attack against their humanity. Now clearly any "sane"
> person, even in 1930's Germany, had to believe Jews were human. But
> eventually they were able to suppress that truth and accept the
> progressively worse treatment that was meted out to the Jews, until it
> reached its ultimate evil conclusion. This is not to say that there
> is any such conspiracy against women and children in this society.
> However, it does poignantly illustrate how easily we can become
> desensitized to what would naturally offend us. Just look at the
> level of violence - no, make that savagery - rampant in our society.

So what's your point? That the spread of ideas which you don't like --
because they appear to lead to a society which you don't like -- should
be suppressed? Goddamn selfish of you, isn't it?

> Pornography clearly has no redeeming social value (a standard I find
> far too lax, but which, nonetheless, makes the point) and does not
> deserve to be tolerated.

Define "social value". Then explain why it is relevant to the debate at
hand. Then explain why any form of speech or expression need to
"deserve" to be tolerated in a free society. (Or are you simply opposed
to the idea of a free society?)

> Karl Dussik, speaking in favor of some much needed civility.

If the price of civility is the forfeiture of my freedom, then I say
*fuck* civility. It's a nice luxury item, but I don't need it _that_
much.

-- William December Starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu>

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From: John.T.Bennett@dartmouth.edu (John T. Bennett)
Subject: Re: Racism at U-Penn?
Sender: news@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (The News Manager)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 06:50:08 GMT
Lines: 20

As a writer for the Beacon (a conservative journal at Dartmouth
College) I would like to send my strongest support to the Daily
Pennsylvanian versus de-facto censorship. We have a very similar
controversy brewing here, although it hasn't become as covered as the
DP's problems. The Dartmouth Review, a renowned campus conservative
newspaper, has been removed from students' doorsteps repeatedly in the
past three weeks. Charges of racism have been piled upon the Review
following an article it published regarding a confrontation between an
Afro-American woman and man. Both were members of the Afro-American
society here. The fight was reportedly due to the fact the woman was
wearing a fraternity sweatshirt. This so upset the man that he
verbally thrashed the woman and supposedly assaulted her. The Review
was the first paper to come out with the story. The Afro-American
community believed it to be a racist portrayal of the suspect in the
assault.
I think the whole thing is quite ridiculous, but this is causing
quite a stir around here...

John Bennett '96
Dartmouth College

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From: karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 12:26:31 GMT
Sender: usenet@anasazi.com (Usenet News)
Lines: 55

In article <1993Apr22.155033.8883@desire.wright.edu> demon@desire.wright.edu (Not a Boomer) writes:
>In article <1993Apr21.075158.10228@anasazi.com>, karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

> In addition, why should nudity/sex erode "morals"? What is immoral
>about naked people and sex?

I didn't think "nudity/sex was the same as pornography - if that were the
case, most "R" rated movies would be pornography.

>
Now here is a really slimy attempt to distort what I wrote:

>
> [You know the argument is degenerating when people start comparing
>their debate opponents to Hitler :)]
>
>> Long before Hitler started slaughtering the Jews, there was a systematic
>> attack against their humanity. Now clearly any "sane" person, even in
>> 1930's Germany, had to believe Jews were human. But eventually they were
>

First of all, I did not even compare the producers of pornography with
Hitler. A following sentence, which you did not include, was this:

... This is not to say that there is any such conspiracy against
women and children in this society. However, it does poignantly illustrate
how easily we can become desensitized to what would naturally offend us.

Much less did I - or would I - compare my debating opponent to Hitler.
I suggest it is you who ought to watch your "degenerating arguments."

I did waiver over the decision to use the Nazis' dehumanization of the Jews
in my discussion, but consider this - if the amount of violence and abuse
directed against women, just because they are women, were directed instead
against a particular race or ethnic group, there would be one hell of an
outcry.

> The words "naturally offend" is key. If it offends, surely see it
>happen over and over doesn't make it less offensive.

Au contraire! That's what desensitization is all about. Take a noxious
odor, for example. By introducing it gradually you can get a subject to
become accustomed to it. One might even acquire a taste for it. Human
beings have an amazing ability to learn. Unfortunately, they can learn
bad things as well as good ones. In the debate following the first trial
of the officers charged with beating Rodney King the argument was made
that viewing the beating over and over, with slow motion and still frame,
desensitized the jurors to it. Do you think anyone found the beating
"less offensive" after viewing it for the umpteenth time? If so, by your
argument, does that mean the beatings were not "naturally offensive?"

>Brett

Karl Dussik

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From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Sender: usenet@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu (netnews admin account)
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 93 05:19:25 GMT
Lines: 23

karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>In article <1993Apr22.155033.8883@desire.wright.edu> demon@desire.wright.edu (Not a Boomer) writes:
>>In article <1993Apr21.075158.10228@anasazi.com>, karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>> In addition, why should nudity/sex erode "morals"? What is immoral
>>about naked people and sex?

>I didn't think "nudity/sex was the same as pornography - if that were the
>case, most "R" rated movies would be pornography.
If I were to publish a magazine full of pictures of naked people having sex,
it would be considered pornographic. "R" movies escape this definition by
actually showing very little. Nude scenes tend to last for a few seconds,
and the sex scenes have sheets and creative camera angles. Consider: Do the
actors in sex scenes in R movies actually have sex? If they do not, and
ILM is not called in to fake it, then the film footage doesn't really show
people having sex.

Paul Ciszek When we are planning for posterity, we
ought to remember that virtue is not
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu hereditary. --Thomas Paine

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From: bobh@troy.cc.bellcore.com (hettmansperger,robert)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.activism,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: A Costly and Dangerous Mistake
Date: 22 Apr 93 20:50:24 GMT
Sender: netnews@porthos.cc.bellcore.com (USENET System Software)
Lines: 15

In article <1r3n2i$4lt@techbook.techbook.com> dgannon@techbook.techbook.com (Dan Gannon) writes:
>
>
> THE U.S. HOLOCAUST MEMORIAL MUSEUM: A COSTLY AND DANGEROUS MISTAKE
>
> by Theodore J. O'Keefe
>

blah blah blah.

How did this happen???? The revisionists were behaving nicely, keeping
their posts and discussions on alt.revisionism. How did this stuff end
up back on alt.activism? Aargh, now I have to rebuild my kill file.

-Bob

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From: turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)
Newsgroups: soc.men,alt.feminism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Copyright
Followup-To: soc.men,alt.feminism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.theory
Date: 23 Apr 1993 08:48:12 -0500
Lines: 15
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu

-*----
In article <1r4pdfINNghc@twain.ucs.umass.edu> quilty@twain.ucs.umass.edu (Lulu of the lotus-eaters) writes:
> This is a really hopeless example. If an author physically breaks in
> and steals the procedes of a performance of her play, she will, most
> likely, indeed be charged with theft. That is the state "weighing" in
> against such a kind of appropriation of "property". ...

Or the state might do nothing if the legal system does not interfere
in these matters, or if the legal system recognizes the author's
actions as appropriate. How many times the state "weighs in" and
on whose side is determined by the legal system. This is precisely
*why* it is impossible to use the fact of the state "weighing in"
as determining when someone's liberty or property has been violated.

Russell

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From: turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)
Newsgroups: soc.men,alt.feminism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Copyright
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-*----
In article <paynerC5wDx4.703@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
> The problem here is that the producer is not stealing the writers
> work. ...

So says you! Can you *argue* this conclusion rather than just
asserting it?

> ... Indeed, the play is the producers work. In this case, we have
> a collaboration, -both- have created the play (which is quite a bit
> more than just the scripts, the actors have collaborated as well).

Fine -- it is a collaboration. So assume in my example that the
author merely takes his cut of the box office receipts rather than
all of them. The point I pressed still holds.

(Rich Payne should return to my previous post and note what point
I pressed. It was that a property rights analysis of this situation
depends on a *prior* notion of property rights and cannot be had
merely by observing when the state first intervenes. Rich Payne
obviously has such a prior notion of property rights: witness his
assertions above about who owns the work.)

Russell

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From: harry@hershele.alf.dec.com (Harry Katz)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.activism,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving (what happened??)
Followup-To: soc.history,alt.censorship,alt.activism,alt.revisionism
Date: 23 Apr 1993 15:50:27 GMT
Lines: 21
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL9]

KUSCHEL BORIS (kuschel@ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:

When I get the chance I'll post Hitler's 6 odd peace proposals...

In article <1r4984$7pe@netnews.alf.dec.com> I asked:

Weren't the Japanese in the middle of negotiating a peace treaty
with the U.S. when they bombed Pearl Harbor?

KUSCHEL BORIS (kuschel@ecf.toronto.edu) responds:

No, they weren't...

Mr. Kuschel mistakenly thinks that my question was directed to him.
I was actually looking for a response from someone who knows
something about history.

Harry Katz

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From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Subject: Re: Property rights in ideas
Keywords: Property Rights
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:49:42 GMT
Lines: 16

monack@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (david n monack) writes:
| [ copyright, etc. ]
| These principles are generally agreed upon. The only thing that is debated
| is the relativly trivial matter of how ownership is established and
| protected, and how long copyrights should last.

Actually, if the principle of ownership of intellec-
tual entities is as good as everyone thinks it is,
it is hard to see why either patents or copyrights
should ever expire. The present arrangment seems to
imply that this form of property is pretty arbitrary,
even moreso than property in general.
--
)*( Gordon Fitch )*( gcf@panix.com )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta., NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )

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From: wdstarr@athena.mit.edu (William December Starr)
Newsgroups: soc.men,alt.feminism,alt.censorship,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Just Like Dworkin and MacKinnon
Followup-To: alt.censorship,talk.politics.theory
Date: 24 Apr 1993 17:15:25 GMT
Lines: 41
NNTP-Posting-Host: nw12-326-1.mit.edu
In-reply-to: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)

[Note the "Followup-To" redirect(s) to alt.censorship,talk.politics.theory.]

In article <C5sBwH.MGJ@ccu.umanitoba.ca>,
feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld) said:

> You have the law, and the history, quite wrong here: the issue is not
> "does the state have the right to forbid an inventor to sell her
> discoveries?", but, "does the state have the right (or the obligation)
> to penalize those who copy an idea that they have neither invented nor
> paid the inventor for?". The American tradition AGAINST protecting
> intellectual property dates from the American rejection of private,
> Crown-granted monopolies.

"American tradition AGAINST protecting intellectual property?" How do
you reconcile that with the 1789 Constitution's explicit grant to
Congress of the power "To promote the Progress of Science and useful
Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the
exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"?

> A most telling example? Henry Ford's manufacturing of motor cars,
> despite the Government's having granted patents on the very idea of
> automobiles to industrialists who never, indeed, foresaw production
> lines.

Did Ford infringe upon anyone's patent rights?

> So the real issue is, can ideas count as property? At this level, the
> moral dispute separates those who believe in natural rights and those
> who believe that consequences determine proper behaviour.

I'd like to see a summary of a theory of law/society/politics based on
the idea that consequences determine proper behavior. Right now, I
can't even begin to imagine what it would look like. (I'd be
particularly interested in how it handled the question of how to
determine whether a certain act of behavior was responsible for a
certain consequence... at what point does the chain of causes and
effects become so long and tenuous as to be meaningless?)

-- William December Starr <wdstarr@athena.mit.edu>

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From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Subject: Re: Copyright
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 01:22:01 GMT
Lines: 11

If I make a copy of someone's short story and put it in
a novel, (as, analogously, Mozart put Salieri's song in
_Don_Giovanni_) I have violated her copyright but she
still possesses the story. So it is something else
which has been stolen. As copyright is not necessarily
about money, it is not money which was stolen. So what
is it?
--

)*( Gordon Fitch )*( gcf@panix.com )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta., NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )

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From: stc@panix.com (Steven Cherry)
Subject: Re: Copyright
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 01:55:11 GMT
Lines: 24

In <C60MGp.2tB@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:

>If I make a copy of someone's short story and put it in
>a novel, (as, analogously, Mozart put Salieri's song in
>_Don_Giovanni_) I have violated her copyright but she
>still possesses the story. So it is something else
>which has been stolen. As copyright is not necessarily
>about money, it is not money which was stolen. So what
>is it?
>--

> )*( Gordon Fitch )*( gcf@panix.com )*(
>( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta., NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )

Of course it is money. You are getting the *credit* for those words, that
art, and in our culture, the credit is in the form of repute and
royalties. ("Did you like Fitch's latest book?" "Yes. Especially chapter
3. It's worth buying the whole book for.")
________________________________________________ ________________
"If you cannot control your peanut butter, \ / stc@panix.com
you cannot expect to control your life" / \ Steven Cherry
--Calvin (& Hobbes)

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From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Subject: Re: Copyright
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 02:38:52 GMT
Lines: 23

| In <C60MGp.2tB@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
|
| >If I make a copy of someone's short story and put it in
| >a novel, (as, analogously, Mozart put Salieri's song in
| >_Don_Giovanni_) I have violated her copyright but she
| >still possesses the story. So it is something else
| >which has been stolen. As copyright is not necessarily
| >about money, it is not money which was stolen. So what
| >is it?

stc@panix.com (Steven Cherry) writes:
| Of course it is money. You are getting the *credit* for those words, that
| art, and in our culture, the credit is in the form of repute and
| royalties. ("Did you like Fitch's latest book?" "Yes. Especially chapter
| 3. It's worth buying the whole book for.")

I think you're wrong. I'm pretty sure no money or
other exchange of value has to be involved in a
copyright violation.
--

)*( Gordon Fitch )*( gcf@panix.com )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta., NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )

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From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M Kadie)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 19:44:02 GMT
Lines: 29

karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

[...]
>I didn't think "nudity/sex was the same as pornography - if that were the
>case, most "R" rated movies would be pornography.
[...]

By most definitions of pornography, most "R" rated movies *do* contain
pornography.

But don't take my word for it:

DEFINE-O-MATIC:
A "Pornography is expressive material ..."

[choose zero, one, or two]
B1 "... that sexually stimulates ..."
B2 "... that is intended to sexually stimulate ..."

[choose one]
C1 "... ."
C2 "... of which you personally disapprove."

- Carl

--
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
= kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =

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From: night@acm.rpi.edu (Trip Martin)
Subject: Re: Porn and Violence
Nntp-Posting-Host: hermes.acm.rpi.edu
Reply-To: night@acm.rpi.edu
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 16:39:18 GMT
Lines: 51

In <1993Apr21.075158.10228@anasazi.com> karl@anasazi.com (Karl Dussik) writes:

>pornography has as much to do with "free expression" as owning nuclear
>weapons has to do the the right to keep and bear arms.

That's your opinion. A lot of people don't agree.

>Well, our founding fathers recognized that the good that comes from religion
>in general, and the Bible in particular, so far outweights the bad that they
>protected religious freedom in the first amendment. Pornography never has
>had such protection. I'd like to say "and never will", but given the current
>occupants of the White House, that may be overly optimistic.

The founding fathers gave people the freedom to practice religion how they
choose. They didn't give people the power to enact those beliefs into
law to force everyone to abide by the rules of particular religions.

As for pornography not having such protection, many argue it's a form
expression, and thus protected by the first amendment. Certainly, there
was no pornography back when the Constitution was written, so obviously
it couldn't have been explicitly written in.

>So you contend that the Bible, which has good intent, can incite people
>to harm others, but porn, which has - certainly not good - intent, cannot
>incite people to harm others?

Well, the first part of the statement is certainly true. History has
many examples (the crusades, the inquisition to name a couple).

What evidence do you have that porn incites people to harm others? (I'm
looking for properly researched studies here)

>Long before Hitler started slaughtering the Jews, there was a systematic
>attack against their humanity. Now clearly any "sane" person, even in
>1930's Germany, had to believe Jews were human. But eventually they were
>able to suppress that truth and accept the progressively worse treatment
>that was meted out to the Jews, until it reached its ultimate evil
>conclusion. This is not to say that there is any such conspiracy against
>women and children in this society. However, it does poignantly illustrate
>how easily we can become desensitized to what would naturally offend us.
>Just look at the level of violence - no, make that savagery - rampant in
>our society. Pornography clearly has no redeeming social value (a standard
>I find far too lax, but which, nonetheless, makes the point) and does not
>deserve to be tolerated.

So we should all fall in line as to what *you* feel is socially redeeming
and what isn't? Sorry, democracy just doesn't work that way.
--
Trip Martin
night@acm.rpi.edu
night%acm.rpi.edu@rpi.edu

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Newsgroups: alt.censorship
From: hallam@dscomsa.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Slander as Censorship: Rutgers and
Lines: 23
Sender: hallam@vxdesy.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Reply-To: hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 20:38:22 GMT

In article <01GX7JBVGXQO8X1TIB@zodiac.rutger>, MCELROY@zodiac.rutgers.edu writes:

|>INA challenges these defenders and apologists of British imperialism to come out
|>from behind their assumed names, late night phone calls and unsigned leaflets,
|>to cease their political and personal subterfuge against INA and Sinn Fein, and
|>to publicly debate us on the issues.

So that you can get your IRA friends to blow their heads off or have them
kneecaped.
Lets talk about murder as censorship eh?

Lets talk about the murder of a 3 year old boy by the IRA with a bomb planted
in a litter bin outside a MacDonnalds Restaurant.

Lets talk about the fact that Sinn Fein is unable to get an MP elected because
the Irish people themselves reject their war of violence on the people of
Northern Ireland.

To say that your sort makes me sick is to put it mildly.

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<-]) [--No Messages--] / [Skipping]: comp.bugs.2bsd

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<-]) [--No Messages--] / [Skipping]: comp.bugs.misc

-=/[ [2] New Messages / Begin Reading at (#85) ]/=-

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MindVox [ARCHIVES] Library

-=/[ File Location Services ]/=- -=/[ File Transfer Options ]/=-

[C]hange - Move to a new Directory [A]rc - View Contents of an .arc
[D]ir - View CURRENT Directory .zip, .lzh, or .tar File
[F]ind - Locate Files by Title [P]rotocol - Set Transfer Protocol
[N]ew - Listing of NEW Files [R]eceive - Upload File(s) **TO US**
[T]op - Switch to Top Directory [S]end - Send File from US to YOU
[.] - Move Back ONE Directory [W]rite - Write Text to a File

[H]elp - Get Help! / [Q]uit - Exit [V]iew - View an ASCII File

Current Directory: [Archives/Cyberpunk]
[Archives]: Change Directory: ?

File not found.

Current Directory: [Archives/Cyberpunk]
[Archives]:

Current Directory: [Archives/Cyberpunk]
[Archives]: Directory: *

FAQS < DIR > 8-Jan-93
FutureCulture < DIR > 8-Jan-93

- PICO ------------------------- New Buffer ------------------------
^G Get Help ^Y Prev Pg ^K Del Line ^C Cur Pos ^X Exit ^J Justify
^W Where is ^V Next Pg ^U UnDel Lin^T To Spell
[ New file ]
- PICO ------------------------------
- PICO ------------------------------Modified
--
Unseen
--
______
________________

+------------------------+
[ Unknown Command: ^<5E> ]
[ Unknown Command: ^<5E> ]
[ line 4 of 5 (80), character 29 of 30 (96) ]
[ Unknown Command: ^<5E> ]
[ Unknown Command: ^<5E> ]
|
Unseen

*** Connecting to port 6667 of server patriot.mit.edu
*** Welcome to the Internet Relay Network, unseen
*** Your host is Patriot.mit.edu[patriot], running version 2.7.2g
[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
*** If you have not already done so, please read the new user information with
+/HELP NEWUSER
*** This server was created Sun Jan 17 1993 at 23:18:34 EST
*** There are 1520 users and 544 invisible on 145 servers
*** 65 users have connection to the twilight zone
*** There are 537 channels.
*** I have 53 clients and 8 servers
MOTD - Patriot.mit.edu Message of the Day -
MOTD - This is Patriot--MIT's VAX9000/420--Not your ordinary VAX.
MOTD - Please report any problems you encounter to mnystrom@athena.mit.edu!
MOTD -
MOTD - -------NOTE NOTE NOTE-------
MOTD - Usage of this irc server has been very heavy lately.
MOTD -
MOTD - If your client program supports this operation:
MOTD - /server patriot.mit.edu 6665
MOTD - or
MOTD - /server 18.92.0.10 6665
MOTD -

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - AS A FAVOR TO OTHER USERS, if you are using ircII, or otherwise

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - capable of doing this, **PLEASE**

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - use port 6665 of this machine. Also, if you use the C shell, please

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - change your default IRCSERVER to "patriot.mit.edu:6665", if patriot

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - is currently your default.

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD -

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - Access to this server will be gradually tightened until usage can be

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - brought down to a reasonable level. Help prevent your entire

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - site from being denied access and use port 6666 or 6665.

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - Send me email or /msg if you need assistance with this.

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD -

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - The NOTE system is going to be removed from this server in the near

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - future. If you are using /note, please move your notes to either port

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
MOTD - 6666 or 6665.

[1] 22:50 unseen* type /help for help
* End of /MOTD command.
/
1 unseen* type /help for help
join

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** You are not on any channels
/help

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** choices:

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
! # : ADMIN ALIAS

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
ASSIGN AWAY BIND BYE CD

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
CHANNEL CLEAR COMMENT CONNECT CTCP

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
DATE DCC DEOP DESCRIBE DIE

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
DIGRAPH DMSG DQUERY ECHO ENCRYPT

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
EVAL EXEC EXIT FLUSH FOREACH

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
HELP HISTORY HOOK IF IGNORE

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
INFO INPUT INVITE JOIN KICK

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
KILL LASTLOG LEAVE LINKS LIST

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
LOAD LUSERS ME MENUS MLOAD

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
MODE MOTD MSG NAMES NICK

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
NOTE NOTICE NOTIFY ON OPER

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
PARSEKEY PART PING QUERY QUIT

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
QUOTE REDIRECT REHASH RESTART SAVE

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
SAY SEND SENDLINE SERVER SET

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
SIGNOFF SLEEP SQUIT STATS SUMMON

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
TIME TIMER TOPIC TRACE TYPE

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
USERHOST USERS VERSION WAIT WALLOPS

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
WHICH WHILE WHO WHOIS WHOWAS

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
WINDOW XECHO basics commands etiquette

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
expressions functions intro ircII news

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
newuser rules
Help?
Help?
basics

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
*** Help on basics

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
Irc is a multi-user, multi-channel chatting network. It allows

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
people all over the internet to talk to one another in real-time.

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
Each irc user has a nickname they use. All communication with

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
another user is either by nickname or by the channel that they or

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
you are on. All IRCII commands begin with a / character.

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
Anything that does not begin with a / is assumed to be a message

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
that is sent to everyone on your channel. Here is a list of

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
basic commands to help you get started:

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
/LIST Lists all current irc channels, number of

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
users, and topic.

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
/NAMES Shows the nicknames of all users on each

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
channel

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
/JOIN <channel> Join the named channel. All non-commands

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
you type will now go to everyone on that

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
channel

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
/MSG <nick> <msg> Sends a private message to the specified

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
person. Only the specified nickname will

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
see this message.

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
/NICK Change your nickname

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? basics
/QUIT Exits irc.
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
/HELP <topic> Gets help on all IRCII commands.

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
/WHO <channel> Shows who is on a given channel,

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
including nickname, user name and host,

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
and realname.

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
/WHOIS <nick> Shows the "true" indentity of someone

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
These commands should get you started on irc. Use the /HELP

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
command to find out more about things on irc, or ask question of

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Hit any key for more, 'q' to quit ***
people... most would be happy to help you out.
Help?
/nick

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
Help? /nick
*** No help available on /nick: Use ? for list of topics
Help?
/nick

[1] 22:51 unseen* type /help for help
*** Your nickname is unseen
/
2 unseen* type /help for help
whois unseen

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** unseen is mindvox@mindvox.phantom.com (Sara Jane Levinson)

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** on irc via server Patriot.mit.edu (Just another VAX)

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** unseen has been idle 0 seconds
/list

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Channel Users Topic

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sd 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #kanan 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #pumachat 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ShadValle 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #kkk 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mouse 1 Even cats are invited! =D

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hacking 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Infini-D 1 I need help getting a 3DGF file into Infini-D HEL

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tiramisu 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #merlion 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #singapura 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #bloppy 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #vmb 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #phreak 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #2600 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Trippin 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #r 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #w 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #clubhouse 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #twn 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #SazChat 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Catherina 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Romantic2 2 One incurably romantic gentleman awaits inside for

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Romantic3 1 the woman of his dreams. Object: Lavishing of

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Romantic4 1 attention and love. Interested? Join #Romantic1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Romantic5 1 or /msg Romantic.

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Romantic6 1 -------------------->Ladies<----------------------

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #WaitingRo 1 The Docter is out....

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #florid* 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #macau 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lesbian 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ugh 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hottsex 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #blacklab1 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ren&stimp 1 It's a happy happy joy joy world

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #flukes 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #0 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #PhiTau 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #3taiwan 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #test 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #BlackLabl 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #francais 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #viet 7 Skynet rule

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #AmigaSwe 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ministry 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #prince 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #bar 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #romanc* 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Hawk 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Nhatrang 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #$B$A$c$C$ 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #alternati 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #whoopee 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #$B$A$c$C# 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #poetry 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Portal 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #MaRiLLioN 1 Do you remember..?

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #HACKER 2 ELITE HACKING HERE

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #maroc 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #paris 1 Kiss me in Paris

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Zara 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #jen 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #pc 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #fgh 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Scuba 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #juniper 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #shore 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #My_Room 1 It's Cozy, it has a loud Stereo, it's My_Room!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #umn 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lesbians 3 Anna's in the house!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #blondey 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Turkiye 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #crypt 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tigana 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sweety 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #beach 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #NBA 1 <=========== IS FANTASTIC !!!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mahal 2 Jeffrey Loves Melissa

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #2 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #aggie 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #axxe 2 Grey is shorter than Kiltie!!!!!heheheh

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #IMAGE 1 JUST ANOTHER DAY USING AN IMAGE OF THE GOOD TIMES

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sf2 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #bocce 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #fnm 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #oshs 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #oscar 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #vineyard 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #happy 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #windser 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #thorr 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #eh 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #GodIs 1 God is my All and All.

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Czechs 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #israel 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #k'z 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #wetsex 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Kochana 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #thought 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #darkmoon 3 Abandon hope all ye who enter here.!!!!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #3hk 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #romance2 13 WE HAVE OPS HERE!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #CalPoly 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #MrYuk 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Miami 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #icie 2 Drum Roll

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #leo 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #kazoo 2 All smart, good-looking, Texas A&M chemists welcom

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Heath 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #AC/DC 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Tennessee 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Mertz 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Toofaerie 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #never 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #rugby 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Avalon 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Schroeder 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #apples 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ireland 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #elan 3 Oweeeeeeeeeeeee!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #outhere 6

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #DrLuv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Possy 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ahlan 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mtl 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Alaska 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #jb 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #[$B$5$P[( 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #[$B$D$-[( 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #[$B$_$"[( 15

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** ##s#c 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #[$B$K$[$s 27

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #[$B$3$m$3 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #[$B$A$c$C 27

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #[$B8fCB@8 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Pommies 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #reverie 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Neo 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #startrek 3 Asbel is watching Star Trek: The Motion Picture...

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #smegma 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #therip 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Redsland 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #where 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #studio 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #@#taiwan 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #pIgFaRm 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #chet 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #wolvesden 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #chicago 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mim 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #HOPE 7 net.addicts anoymous

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #disney 8 It's spelled A-L-A-D-D-I-N

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 6

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Motss 3 The alternative to the other gay channels

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #vo 1 Tant qu'il y a des crapauds

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #target 1 DTC gruesst den Rest der Welt...

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ohio 2 Welcome

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lint 3 Belly Button fuzz...not just a kids snack anymore!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #new 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hmalet 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hop 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lsl 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sappho 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #somewhere 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #florida 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #doodah 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #radford 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tiger 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #nathy 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Blf 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #blakworld 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #blakness 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #CostaRica 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ttss 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #gospel 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Ou812 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #teapot 4 WIBBLE WIBBLE

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mid 1 Kansas and Mid America

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #KaTnAp 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #doors 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Tri 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #buzz 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #GIFserv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Arizona 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #StCanard 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Agrabah 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hagalaz 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mountain_ 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Abortion 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #00 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #warung 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #owls-nest 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #texas 22 sexy broad inside

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Merlin- 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ovne 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #iran 3 Mohammad booghi was here

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #khalid 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #UCD-temp 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #SaliClub 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #CosaNostr 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #amiga! 4 The ELITE Amiga Channel.

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #UCD 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #undernet 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #fidonet 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Polski 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #north_cd 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #konstanz 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #peaches&c 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #AmigaGER 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #9714 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ROSTOCK 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #BREMEN 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #germany 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tuebingen 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ccc 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #snooker 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mechanica 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #warrpi 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #flyfly 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sexy 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #atari 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #JSC 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Zen2 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #france 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #uta 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lut 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #peachy 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Gwen 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #foofaa 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #duh 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #kana 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #42 17

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #nesu 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #yazbot 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #O_t_i_s__ 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hoosiers 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Sweden 4 Nancy & Sirk {r h{r.

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Kland 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #gateau 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Eliza 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #40 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #essi2 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #essi 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #CATHOLIC 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #quiet 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #greg 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tar 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #xazo 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #uiuc 6 leave without talking and |Q| will ban you. :)

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #we 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #chipmunk 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #NSBEverse 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #dogtalk 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Ihlini 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #riot 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #man2man 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #uofm 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #MeJane 6

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #prueba 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Lady 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Xney 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Night 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #I 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Ladynight 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Mailman 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #turks 8

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #romantica 4 onemsiz

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #christian 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #INXSland 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Lone-Wolf 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #italia 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tmbg 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Bolink 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #nike 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #StarWars 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #asylum 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #shadowrun 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Church 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Sophomore 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #fireside 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Raven 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tey 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #teyW 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #SMAK1 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lovin 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #bagels 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #remer 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Spic 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #fawlty 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ksu 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #daveshome 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #emj 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #CoHH 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #girly 1 BIM, WHERE ARE YOU!!!!!????

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #TMPRSWRLD 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #singa 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #love 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #pakland 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #SquishyBe 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #rosegarde 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Xanth 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Collector 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #422br2lc 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #uwa 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #errors 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #deep.thou 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ht 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ozzies 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #eu-opers 11

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #uow 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Fuzzy_Woo 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #aussies 18 The life and times of smiliez :)

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ss 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #fynet 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sex2 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #BlazEd 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #toledo 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ham-radio 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #p/g! 4 NEW BILLY IDOL IN JULY!!!!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #steambath 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #IrcHelp 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #acpaim 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Heinlein 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #wave 1 Uglys':ykk PinHong Wg nyc ccn and pegguy! :=)

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #philosoph 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #cyberpunk 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #boss 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Gothic 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Fiesta 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Indo 9 Welcome To Indo Channel

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #drugs 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #cricket 12

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #cricketta 7

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #poondi 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #NJIT 2 New Jersey Insitiute of Technology.

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Flying 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #USBIC 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #DarkWorld 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #raj 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lame 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #ub 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lesbia* 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #canker 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #piglet_zo 1 Are we not men? We are piglets!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tibit 1 hello, Grechan's mom, barefoot is here

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Tibet 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #c-code 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #KL 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #korea 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hotstuff 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Concrete 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #talk2me 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #chat 5 Girlz Cum and Girlz Go

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Lamers-In 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #INTI 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #perak 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #L'viv 2 in distant land, to which you cannot go ...

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #duff 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #our_house 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #coldmak 1 WE'RE RUDE HERE

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #cw 2 MOOving and shaking

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #NoSex 3 Sex is like a gun. You aim, you shoot, you run

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #techno 2 any REAL ravers on IRC?

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #arkansas 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Maine 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #socialism 4 recession comes as no suprise

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #CTYers 1 I survived Akbar and Jeff's Open Mike Nite

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #vampyres 2 NOTHING to do.. *sigh*

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #LeBlondie 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Rave 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sca 1 Society for creative Anachronism

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tien 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #btuyet 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #wramroom 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #russian 5 let mit be and live and prosper

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #SOL 3 WHERE REAL MEN CAN BE APPRECIATED

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #babs 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #blahblah 2 blah

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #makia 2 MESA OLOS MESA

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #saigon 13 WHAT IS TBI REAL NAME ? ANYONE KNOW ?

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #serch 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Oven 3 TES IS SWEET!!!!!!!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Berlin 6 legen, can you read thsi?

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #duc 1 Bienvenue aux Bots / Bots Welcome

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #pond 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #386bsd 4

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mindvox 3 I have OP and YOU DONT! BLAHAHAHahhahahahahahahah

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hmmm 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #kill 3 tickles phoebe

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #shanghai 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #beijing 6

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #mercutio 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #BluNt 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #joy 6 the channel for all of joy's friends! =)

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #robotech 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Iolo 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Usenet 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Dada 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sega 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lioncity 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #yorku 1 ...

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Hualien 5 Welcome to The Beautiful Town of Eastern Taiwan

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #IndianOce 1 The Blue Sea Lovers meet here

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #confused 3 <KittyCat> oh, there, I ve heard of that

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #gblf 22 Gays, Bisexuals, Lesbians and Friends

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #nevermind 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #NYU 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #kampung 3

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #T-boy 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #fenfen&da 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hp48sx 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #PennClub 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #future 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #nyc 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Prowler 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sunhillow 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #hockey 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #singapore 12

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #daiwan 5

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #tdsb 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #lounge 8 Visit the Lounge

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** Prv 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Quebec 3 Bienvenue a tous et toutes!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #sherwood 3 Toast? what toast?

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #chess 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #linux68k 2

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #china 1

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #gaysex 10

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #obj 3 We ar open again :)

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #wicca 9 *

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #bondage 19 Turn up the volume and turn on the leatherfolk!

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #moshpit 5 Vermillion: Home of the CAT HAT

[1] 22:52 unseen* type /help for help
*** #Paradise 4

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*** #atlantic. 7 when will it end....

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*** #cheers 13 Where everybody knows your nick! - OPEN -

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*** #macintosh 10 I HATE WORK!!!

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*** #Esperanto 2

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*** #Crossdres 8 Crossdressers, Transsexuals & Friends!

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*** #dutch 1

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*** #UNIX 3 UN*X advice given: worth what you pay for it

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*** #christ 12 Everyone Welcome!

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*** #metal 1

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*** #Radixbots 2

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*** #casino 3

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*** #hellas 10 exoume mpleksi ta mpoutia mas dike mou.....

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*** #gif 3

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*** #francais 15 Pour etre Kicker, vous n'avez qu'a beepez :)

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*** #nippon 11 Penguins for the Cup!

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*** #Pakistan 13

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*** #romance 3 There is no romance like irc romance

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*** #hottub 20 What a bunch of floaters

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*** #talk2 1

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*** #filipino 10 Hi

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*** #AppleIIgs 14 Spaf is gone! Long live Spaf!

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*** #eyes 10

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*** # 3 Lost Souls

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*** #Anime! 11 Manga and comics, Comics and manga...

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*** #os/2 2

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*** #alone 1

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*** #candy 2

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*** #cindy 2

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*** #freetalk 1

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*** #Mcgill 1

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*** #ca-ops 4

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*** #20 1

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*** #XylyX 1

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*** #macedonia 4

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*** #supersex 3

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*** #lovers 2

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*** #friends 2

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*** #kowloon 3

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*** #klumpur 2 Kuala Lumpur the One and Only

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*** #Kristanzo 2 Dare to dream....

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*** #heart 1 Now is 4:30 , but lgirl still not sleep:!]

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*** #chinese 4 [==Welcome use Chinese talking Awai"IYI###aYa?I==

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*** #leri 7 talking at cross-purposes

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*** Prv 1

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*** #limbaugh 9 Just what IS the diff. between country and western

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*** #johor 1

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*** #linet 3 Long Island PubNet

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*** #england 1 THE WEDDING of MOZART and REDD... all are invited

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